Available in Winter

[+Juan Durrer]

My assumption was that this meant the cache was hidden in such a way that it could reasonably be found in snow.

 

I went looking for such a cache today and posted a somewhat perturbed DNF after kicking all around GZ in 8 inches of snow with no sign of a location that would be "available."

 

The CO was nice enough to respond quickly but said that although it is available in winter, the cache could not be found in snow. Huh?

 

So, is this attribute open to interpretation, or is there a Groundspeak definition? It seems kind of silly to have an attribute called "available in winter," - a snowflake, no less - if all it means is that it is legal to go there in the winter, isn't it?

 

I mean, short of a park that is legally closed during the winter, what else could posiibly be not available in winter under that definition?

[+ras_oscar]

I always assumed that a cache that was "unavailable in winter" was located in an area such as a park that was physically or legally closed closed in the winter. Doesn't mean (IMHO) that its easier or even likely to be found in the snow.

[+Snake973]

Well, around here a lot of the rivers flood in winter, which could make a good number of caches "unavailable" or prohibitively difficult to get to.

[+Cardinal Red]

I have exactly the same interpretation of AVAILABLE IN WINTER as the OP. I would not be happy with the CO's answer either.

 

And there is no such thing as an UNAVAILABLE IN WINTER attribute. How did this become a discussion about that?

 

There is no official Groundspeak definition of attributes. I am sure the thinking was that the meanings were self explanatory. Obviously not.

 

Who wants to conduct unofficial poles of the Forum Posters and form a consensus of the meaning of each attribute? Then that group consensus could be stored off site as a knowledgebase. Which will be one more thing the majority won't read.

[+bittsen]

I believe that "available in winter" means if you want to look for the cache in winter, there are no LEGAL barriers to it.

 

Around here there are many places that are closed off in winter. I suppose if you really wanted to snowshoe 30 miles you "could" get the cache anyhow but for the most part the areas are closed.

 

I didn't take it to mean that it's available in deep snow.

[+bunkerdave]

I guess I can see the CO's perspective, but I think the definition of the attribute needs clarification.

 

Very few caches are inaccessible because of the season, if one has the means and ambition to go and get them. I think that what SHOULD be listed, is "This cache is hidden in such a way that winter snow or other weather conditions will not make it any harder to find than it would be in any other season." Most caches I have searched for around town are like this - hanging in a tree or bush, or a micro stuck to something with a magnet - but certainly not all of them. I have spent more time than I care to remember rooting around in snow looking for a cache...some I found, some I didn't, but it's never been anything I enjoyed.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I believe that "available in winter" means if you want to look for the cache in winter, there are no LEGAL barriers to it.

 

Around here there are many places that are closed off in winter. I suppose if you really wanted to snowshoe 30 miles you "could" get the cache anyhow but for the most part the areas are closed.

 

I didn't take it to mean that it's available in deep snow.

 

If a cache is in a location that is temporarily closed (illegal to access) then, IMHO, it should be marked as disabled. An area that is inaccessible due to winter conditions is really no different then an area closed due to construction of some type.

 

To me, a cache that is "Available in Winter" means that not only is the area accessible (though it may require a lot more work to do so) and can also be found *and* logged without a lot of additional effort. Around here that typically means that the cache is located off the ground at least a few feet.

[+Wooden Cyclist]

I have always thought that the Available During Winter attribute meant that you could access the area during the winter. Around here most CO's will mention in the cache description "May not be winter friendly" if snow will cover a cache. That way if someone wants to look for snow-buried caches they can and some do.

 

I have a cache that is under water in dished out spot of a tree trunk. It is currently disabled because of the ice that has formed.

[+buttaskotch]

i have always considered the Winter attribute as being a place where you can legally enter grounds to find cache. Now the question of being off ground or easier to find in winter conditions is subjective. I have gone out to cache in a foot or more of snow and a previous difficulty/terrain of 1/1 is turned into a 4/4. It just makes the game a little more fun AND soggy. Found a few on Xmas in a preserve and had to abandon more after getting seriouslly soggy socks, as I wasn't fully dressed for a traverse through the snow.

We also have an annual event in nearby NJ called Caching in the snow, and luckily it did in fact snow the last 2 years! I personally am more prone to Winter caches than summer less critters around

[+DanOCan]

I just had this discussion with another cacher yesterday while out in the field.

 

The best thing to do is pay attention to the cache hiders in your local area and learn which ones believe it means "available in winter" (ie: you can get there) and which ones believe it means "winter friendly" (ie: you can actually find it in the snow).

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

While visiting, we just went out and garnered about 20 during the SD blizzard. Most all were ground-planted caches. While the snow makes it a little more difficult, that's all it does. If you want the find, you will get it. I replaced one container with a brand new Lock-n-Lock because my size 12 found the original container - a not-so-expensive plastic jar (by accident, I assure you). Blinkies and bison tubes are available all over the place.

 

If you worry about snow, you're gonna be moldy by springtime.

[+StarBrand]

I have seen this discussion several times. Just for the record, Jeremy did state at one point that he intended it to mean something very close to the OP. For a long time I thought it was for areas that have seasonal closures as there are plenty of those around me.

 

The real problem is in the wording that goes with the icon. "Available in Winter" just is not the same as "Can find it easily in the snow". I think we can all agree on that.

[+Cardinal Red]

The real problem is in the wording that goes with the icon. "Available in Winter" just is not the same as "Can find it easily in the snow". I think we can all agree on that.

My view of an actual description would be closer to: The Difficulty rating is not affected by two feet of snow. It doesn't have to be easy with or without snow.

[+artist2c]

My assumption was that this meant the cache was hidden in such a way that it could reasonably be found in snow.

 

I am with OP

 

To interprete the snow symbol as meant to mean GZ can be arrived at in te winter would certainly limit many if not most of the caches listed on the site that do not have it in the attribute section..

 

With this said... I feel the attribute snowflake symbol should mean the cache can be found with a snow cover.

 

If there is a limitation because of closed gates or hours or months (seasons) of access it should be listed in the description of the hide.

[+SkellyCA]

If Winter = Snow that would render that attribute completely useless in parts of the US and most countries near the equator.

 

It hasn't snowed in my town in 30 years! The one time it did, it melted right away. Rivers and creeks do flood around here in the winter which would make some caches unavailable in winter.

 

So I would expect the attribute to be open to interpretation so that it would flexible and useful globably.

[+artist2c]

Thanks for your prompt reply.

 

I do understand not all areas are subject to snow... areas like yous have different issues... water being only one of them.

 

I did notice that the attributes have some for swimming and wading may be required.

 

I think you have brought up an excellent issue... and you should suggest that area subject to flooding may be a symbol added to the list.

 

In the areas that do have snow as a factor I stand by my response ... (I feel the attribute snowflake symbol should mean the cache can be found with a snow cover).

 

Thank you so much for the clarification you have added ... I will look forward to the new symbol for possible flooding area being added.... good suggestion.

[+StarBrand]

....

In the areas that do have snow as a factor I stand by my response ... (I feel the attribute snowflake symbol should mean the cache can be found with a snow cover).

...

Then it truely needs different text associated with it.

[+L0ne.R]

....

In the areas that do have snow as a factor I stand by my response ... (I feel the attribute snowflake symbol should mean the cache can be found with a snow cover).

...

Then it truely needs different text associated with it.

 

I agree about needing clearer, less ambigious text.

 

I don't understand why it's important to know that the land/park/forest is open in the winter if the cache is not accessible under snow or if it has a high probability of being iced in. When I filter out for winter-accessible caches I'm not looking for parks that are open in the winter - I'm caching, not going for a picnic. I'm looking for caches that are hanging/hidden above the snowline and are not going to be frozen-in.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Lone R

[+Night Stalker]

The caches that I have found with the available in winter symbol were ones that had been hidden in such a way that the cache could be found as easily in the winter as in the summer. Most were hidden high enough that snow was not a factor. I disable several of my caches during winter months because I do not feel they are in an area or hidden in such a way that they can be found in the winter.

[+ecanderson]

If Winter = Snow that would render that attribute completely useless in parts of the US and most countries near the equator.

Well, lucky you. I don't imagine that the "Scuba Gear Required" fits very many locations, either.

 

Here in Colorado, the "Available During Winter" icon is pretty important. We have quite a number of trails that are impassible in the winter, so where the icon is applied to an off-road cache, you can pretty well guess - if you didn't already know that mountain trails + snow can be a problem

 

In any urban/suburban setting, if you see an "Available During Winter" around here, the CO is indicating that with a couple of feet of snow or less, you're still in the ball game - just as the OP would interpret it. Of course, that doesn't count when the doggone snow plows bury ground zero under 8 feet of snow.

[+Dingmaster]

Greets people~

 

I'm rather new at geocaching, so I'm still forming an opinion on this particular topic.

 

I bought my GPS in the fall and found my first few caches while leaves were still dropping. Loved the trips, and got a thrill from finding the caches.

 

Then, here in Iowa, winter hit. Admittedly, more snow fell than normal. Nevertheless, I've gone out 3 times and have found one and 2 DNF's.

 

The one I did find, I had to root around the area for a LONG time, digging at the base of every tree, turning over every rock I found under the snow. The two I didn't find I didn't even look for very long as the terrain at one was nasty and the other had about 2 foot of snow over the whole area.

I went out yesterday to GC1VX83, I thought it would be a P&G, but I was wrong, LOL~~~!!

Looking at a few logs, it doesn't look like anyone else is finding much either under the heavy snow (at least the ones I looked at).

 

I completely understand the snow can completely change the character of any area, but I don't want to be a weenie and just stop caching in the winter.

 

However, I'm also not crazy about spending "alot" of time finding a cache area only to find the snow makes it's impassable\inaccessible.

 

I'll sure be searching the descriptions in the future for clues as to the accessibility of the cache in the snow before I go. I hope to find some that mention they can be found even with moderate\deep snow?

[+briansnat]

My assumption was that this meant the cache was hidden in such a way that it could reasonably be found in snow.

 

I agree. With very few exceptions, most caches are accessible in the winter. An attribute that means that it is accessible winter would be as superfluous as an attribute that means it is accessible in fall/summer/spring (there are areas that are not legally accessible in other seasons as well).

 

I think the intent is that it means you have a reasonable chance of finding it in the snow. That's how I use it.

Edited December 28, 2009 by briansnat

[+DanOCan]

In the areas that do have snow as a factor I stand by my response ... (I feel the attribute snowflake symbol should mean the cache can be found with a snow cover).

 

Yep. When I am shopping for tires the snowflake symbol on the side means "this tire is suitable for winter conditions", not "you are legally able to buy this tire during the winter months". I would love to see the text associated with this attribute changed.

[+Dingmaster]

My assumption was that this meant the cache was hidden in such a way that it could reasonably be found in snow.

 

I agree. With very few exceptions, most caches are accessible in the winter. An attribute that means that it is accessible winter would be as superfluous as an attribute that means it is accessible in fall/summer/spring (there are areas that are not legally accessible in other seasons as well).

 

I think the intent is that it means you have a reasonable chance of finding it in the snow. That's how I use it.

 

I think that is well stated and I agree.

 

I would also add that this has been the "snowiest" Dec on record and so "reasonable\reasonably" would apply and I certainly don't blame the CO for the foot of snow.

[+The Ravens]

And there is no such thing as an UNAVAILABLE IN WINTER attribute. How did this become a discussion about that?

 

 

But there is! Right of the Winter attribute you can select "No" radial button which marks it "Not Available".

[+Cardinal Red]

And there is no such thing as an UNAVAILABLE IN WINTER attribute. How did this become a discussion about that?

 

But there is! Right of the Winter attribute you can select "No" radial button which marks it "Not Available".

 

Obviously I missed that. Thanks Ravens.

[Skippermark]

I consider available in winter to mean able to be found under normal snow conditions for an area.

 

If it has no icon, that may not stop me from trying it in the winter, because it could be an easy find, but it may also need an axe to get it out.

 

I can't stand when a cache has available in winter but is lying on the ground. Grrrr. Just tried one this weekend that said it was "available in winter" and "wheelchair accessible." It was neither.

[+bittsen]

Not all locations have snow in the winter. Down south the icon might have a different meaning than in Canada, for example.

[+Castle Mischief]

Not all locations have snow in the winter. Down south the icon might have a different meaning than in Canada, for example.

 

Yes, in Alabama it means- can be found in cold mud.

[+ArcherDragoon]

My assumption was that this meant the cache was hidden in such a way that it could reasonably be found in snow.

 

I went looking for such a cache today and posted a somewhat perturbed DNF after kicking all around GZ in 8 inches of snow with no sign of a location that would be "available."

 

The CO was nice enough to respond quickly but said that although it is available in winter, the cache could not be found in snow. Huh?

 

So, is this attribute open to interpretation, or is there a Groundspeak definition? It seems kind of silly to have an attribute called "available in winter," - a snowflake, no less - if all it means is that it is legal to go there in the winter, isn't it?

 

I mean, short of a park that is legally closed during the winter, what else could posiibly be not available in winter under that definition?

I guess I take it for the very literal meaning...that the cache is aviable in winter...ie...I did not remove the cache for the winter season...

 

Keep in mind...that it could very well be covered by 2 feet of snow...

 

Now, if I were to have a cache that was in a area closed during the winter...I would disable the listing for the winter...

 

Otherwise, yeah...I have seen pleanty of people call if the "Winter Friendly Icon"...which is probably the reason this discussion can be heated at times (no pun intended)...

[7rxc]

And there is no such thing as an UNAVAILABLE IN WINTER attribute. How did this become a discussion about that?

 

But there is! Right of the Winter attribute you can select "No" radial button which marks it "Not Available".

 

Obviously I missed that. Thanks Ravens.

Thanks to you both... I've assumed something like that for all the attributes... But I've never 'owned' a cache so I don't get to see that part...

 

As for the 'closed during winter' meaning... I would have thought that would be covered by the 24/7 attribute which seems to convey Time restrictions / closure periods... details to be provided in the cache description... Would that not be the appropriate symbol for Seasonal closures, along with disabling to prevent / minimize the chance it would be sought in the first place?

 

Doug

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

Well, to me...the word "Available" would mean that it can be found with a reasonable effort, I don't usually see the 24 hour attribute on every Cache that is legal to access at night. It's usually used to notate Caches that are reasonable to search for at any time of day.

[+Juan Durrer]

Wow!

 

I am surprised to see a fairly even divide on this subject (and heartened to see it remain civilized discussion.)

 

So, for me, this attribute is unacceptably vague, as I, like a previous poster, have no interest in hiking out to a cache that turns out to be under a foot and a half of snow and embedded in ice, whereas I might just choose to snowshoe into the woods if I know that a shovel and iceaxe are not required at ground zero.

 

How does one go about getting something like this clarified and/or settled by the powers that be?

 

Many thanks,

Rob

[+briansnat]

Wow!

 

I am surprised to see a fairly even divide on this subject (and heartened to see it remain civilized discussion.)

 

So, for me, this attribute is unacceptably vague, as I, like a previous poster, have no interest in hiking out to a cache that turns out to be under a foot and a half of snow and embedded in ice, whereas I might just choose to snowshoe into the woods if I know that a shovel and iceaxe are not required at ground zero.

 

How does one go about getting something like this clarified and/or settled by the powers that be?

 

Many thanks,

Rob

 

There are two ways to look at it, literally or the probable intent. If you take it literally it means simply that the cache is available in the winter, not that it is necessarily findable. The intent is likely that the cache is findable in the winter, because the other interpretation would make the icon superfluous. Since nearly all caches are "available" in the winter why would an icon be needed for that?

 

TPTB rarely step in to rule on the proper interpretation of things. Unfortunately you are probably left with expressing your disappointment in your log when you snowshoe 5 miles to a cache that is under 3 feet of snow and hoping the cache owner sees it your way.

[+dibug]

tHE SEVEN AND TWELVE YEAR OLD GRANDSONS WENT OUT CACHING THIS WEEKEND IN 20+ INCHES OF SNOW. We did not mind digging in the snow as much as digging in the ground when a shovel you did not bring in the summer. The snow was much friendlier to move around. We did not even think to check if they were labeled winter accessible or not. We knew the area was safe to travel in even in the winter however.

[+L0ne.R]

tHE SEVEN AND TWELVE YEAR OLD GRANDSONS WENT OUT CACHING THIS WEEKEND IN 20+ INCHES OF SNOW. We did not mind digging in the snow as much as digging in the ground when a shovel you did not bring in the summer. The snow was much friendlier to move around. We did not even think to check if they were labeled winter accessible or not. We knew the area was safe to travel in even in the winter however.

How much of the area did you dig out before you found the cache?

[7rxc]

Well, to me...the word "Available" would mean that it can be found with a reasonable effort, I don't usually see the 24 hour attribute on every Cache that is legal to access at night. It's usually used to notate Caches that are reasonable to search for at any time of day.

 

I agree with that... it's the NOT 24/7 that should invoke the provision of details in the cache description.

Definitely thinking that there should be a better definition of what Attributes actually mean... obviously not possible in a few words.

 

Doug

[+L0ne.R]

I suppose one of the hazards of marking your cache as winter-accessible when in fact it is on the ground under a layer of snow and ice, is that your cache could get destroyed by cachers digging and chopping into it (unless it's an ammo can, but it might get dented).

[+HelTom]

There are two ways to look at it, literally or the probable intent. If you take it literally it means simply that the cache is available in the winter, not that it is necessarily findable. The intent is likely that the cache is findable in the winter, because the other interpretation would make the icon superfluous. Since nearly all caches are "available" in the winter why would an icon be needed for that?

 

Before you make any definitions and rules that have to be followed by all cachers, you must first think globally. Winter in your place is different than what it is in mine which is very different from a winter in, say, Greece.

 

The snowflake icon must not be taken literally: "Available in Winter" cannot mean only that the cache is being located in an area that is closed in winter. I mean, a park or an area closed in winter? What the beep is that? In my country, and in all Nordic countries there are practically no such areas. Naturally, there are areas in Lapland (for example) which are difficult to access in winter but everyone with common sense understands how to deal with the situation.

 

We have winter every year ! Someone suggested disabling all caches if they are affected by winter - erm, we could close the whole country down for a few months in that case...

 

Someone else wrote:

The real problem is in the wording that goes with the icon. "Available in Winter" just is not the same as "Can find it easily in the snow". I think we can all agree on that.

I disagree with that. For me "Available in Winter" means precisely that the cache will not be covered by snow or ice (except in extreme conditions) and it can be approximately as easy to find as when there is no snow or ice.

 

This is a topic of current interest for me for two reasons. I live in an area with very little snow (there is always some snow during a short period of winter) but during the last weeks there has been more than enough of it. I am trying to make our cache descriptions as accurate as possible in order to minimize frustration of cache hunters.

 

Last week we made a list of "Available in Winter" caches in a certain area. Two of them were totally impossible to find: a cache under a rock - under 50 cm of snow!?! What a waste of time stomping around there it was! The two cache owners were very responsible and changed the attributes when we mentioned about the snow covering everything.

 

My point is: this is a very important attribute but it means different things in different areas. Before anyone carves the meaning in stone please remember that winter conditions and "available" areas vary from place to place.

Edited December 30, 2009 by HelTom

[+WeeWillie]

Cachers should know enough about the areas they cache to make a sound decision about available in the winter. Read the logs. If nobody has been there since Nov that should be a clue as to availability. So is 6 DNFs in a row. If you are not familar with the area this forum has an entire section devoted to regional caching.

 

Public land managers close roads and trails in the winter because they are generally impassable. Unless you are prepared to spend the night (or several nights) find somewhere else to cache. Is another find worth your life or more important, the lives of the rescue team looking for you?

[+tomfuller & Quill]

tHE SEVEN AND TWELVE YEAR OLD GRANDSONS WENT OUT CACHING THIS WEEKEND IN 20+ INCHES OF SNOW. We did not mind digging in the snow as much as digging in the ground when a shovel you did not bring in the summer. The snow was much friendlier to move around. We did not even think to check if they were labeled winter accessible or not. We knew the area was safe to travel in even in the winter however.

How much of the area did you dig out before you found the cache?

Did grandpa have to shovel out the vehicle to get back home?

You may have seen a story on CNN today about people who relied on their GPS to guide them here in Oregon.

Luckily they were found after 3 days. I own the only 2 caches along that road. I don't expect those caches to be found again until May.

Don't turn down the railroad tracks even if your GPS tells you to.

I recently snowshoed to a cache that was a pill bottle that I knew was inside a snow shelter. While I was drying my socks and boots, I let the X-Country skiers find their first geocache.

I see that the OP has been to a couple of event caches. It is wise to discuss what caches you would like to find in the winter. You may even join forces to find a few.

I had a great day yesterday hiking with 2 geocaching friends in the Columbia Gorge.

[+bittsen]

I had a great day yesterday hiking with 2 geocaching friends in the Columbia Gorge.

 

AND just why haven't I seen your found it logs on my caches in the gorge??

 

Just kidding...

[Skippermark]

Not all locations have snow in the winter. Down south the icon might have a different meaning than in Canada, for example.

True, and by snow, I was thinking of where I live and consider the icon to mean "findable in the middle of winter under normal conditions for that time, whatever they may be."

 

For me in CT, that's 2 feet of snow on the ground. For FL, that could be a chilly 60 degree day in the cold drizzle.

[Skippermark]

I guess I take it for the very literal meaning...that the cache is aviable in winter...ie...I did not remove the cache for the winter season...

If the cache had been removed, the icon wouldn't matter because it should be disabled if the container isn't there.

 

If it means the area is closed in winter and access is denied, relying on the icon isn't a good way to go because not all paperless devices show the attributes, and someone may never see it. If a cache can't be found because the area is closed, it should be made clear in the description, and even better, it should be disabled for the winter.

 

There's a cache around here like that, but it's the opposite. It's disabled in the summer because the area is closed because of nesting birds. During that time it's disabled so no one accidentally goes there.

[+tomfuller & Quill]

I had a great day yesterday hiking with 2 geocaching friends in the Columbia Gorge.

 

AND just why haven't I seen your found it logs on my caches in the gorge??

 

Just kidding...

Got a ride up to Horsetail Falls with PMOGUY. Warmed up with a micro named Ponytail before hiking up with the intent of replacing the archived cache Rock of Ages GCB060. From there we hiked up the Devil's Backbone. The local guides were CFM and 2 hikers who know that section of the mountain very well.

[+bittsen]

I had a great day yesterday hiking with 2 geocaching friends in the Columbia Gorge.

 

AND just why haven't I seen your found it logs on my caches in the gorge??

 

Just kidding...

Got a ride up to Horsetail Falls with PMOGUY. Warmed up with a micro named Ponytail before hiking up with the intent of replacing the archived cache Rock of Ages GCB060. From there we hiked up the Devil's Backbone. The local guides were CFM and 2 hikers who know that section of the mountain very well.

 

I went up horsetail looking for caches a couple months ago and they were all gone. I sure hope the ones that are getting placed hold up a while. Very nice little hike up there.