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I'd always understood, that a one star terrain cache should be wheelchair accessible; i.e accessible by reasonable paths and not at the top of a really steep hill etc.

 

I've even chatted with reviewers in the past and they have suggested certain caches were a 1.5 if this was not the case, however, I am recently told that attitudes have changed and that a 1 star terrain no longer is required to be wheelchair accessible. :D

 

Is this really true?

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I'd always understood, that a one star terrain cache should be wheelchair accessible; i.e accessible by reasonable paths and not at the top of a really steep hill etc.

 

I've even chatted with reviewers in the past and they have suggested certain caches were a 1.5 if this was not the case, however, I am recently told that attitudes have changed and that a 1 star terrain no longer is required to be wheelchair accessible. :D

 

Is this really true?

 

I don't know if the guideline changed, but my attitude hasn't! I wouldn't rate a cache 1 star unless it's wheelchair accessible, I don't want to waste anybodys time!

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I'd always understood, that a one star terrain cache should be wheelchair accessible; i.e accessible by reasonable paths and not at the top of a really steep hill etc.

 

I've even chatted with reviewers in the past and they have suggested certain caches were a 1.5 if this was not the case, however, I am recently told that attitudes have changed and that a 1 star terrain no longer is required to be wheelchair accessible. :D

 

Is this really true?

 

I don't know if the guideline changed, but my attitude hasn't! I wouldn't rate a cache 1 star unless it's wheelchair accessible, I don't want to waste anybodys time!

 

While there is the HandiCacher attribute, I'm usually advised to keep caches at 1.5 or higher, unless they are on firm, flat, open ground, which is wheel chair accessible.

 

On that thought I have come to realize most of my caches are well beyond the realm of wheel chairs and I may consider placing a few more whare handicachers can get to them.

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There is nothing in the guidelines that state that a 1 terrain must be wheelchair accessable, but that it a generally recognized community guideline. Some reviewers do attempt to enforce it, but that can only be done at review and publication time... a cache owner can change the terrain ratings any time they want, and the reviewer would likely not be aware of it.

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I'd always understood, that a one star terrain cache should be wheelchair accessible; i.e accessible by reasonable paths and not at the top of a really steep hill etc.

 

I've even chatted with reviewers in the past and they have suggested certain caches were a 1.5 if this was not the case, however, I am recently told that attitudes have changed and that a 1 star terrain no longer is required to be wheelchair accessible. :D

 

Is this really true?

 

There was never a guideline. It was suggested that 1 star terrain be handicap accessible. Many if not most reviewers will ask that you raise it to 1.5 stars if the terrain is not handicap accessible, but they won't (or shouldn't) hold up publishing a cache because it is rated wrong.

 

Attitudes haven't changed. 1 star terrain should still be handicap accessible, but it never has been a requirement. The only change if anything is that reviewers are more diligent these days about trying to make sure 1 star terrain is the correct rating. Years ago most wouldn't give it a 2nd glance.

 

It could be argued that the introduction of the handicap accessible attribute negates the need for the 1 star terrain convention, but since people often misuse attributes and mis-rate terrain, having a redundant system is a good idea.

Edited by briansnat
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For my most recent cache, the reviewer requested that I ensure my terrain rating of 1 was wheelchair accessable. As the area directly in front of the cache is gravel (I believe it will be paved at some point but by then, when the park is completed, I hope to change my micro into an ammo can and replace it further into the park). While I had no problem changing the terrain rating to a 1.5 to comply with the suggested guideline, it made me think of the wheelchairs that I've seen recently.

 

I work with handicapped children and I've noticed a trend that seems to be catching on in the medical equipment area - that being "all terrain wheelchairs". Before my step-father had a lung transplant, he used a mobility scooter that could accomodate a wide variety of terrain, including gravel pathways.

 

With improvements in technology it isn't a stretch to see the future of mobility devices will ensure most handicapped people are able to handle more difficult terrains than just pavement. This is going to make the terrain guideline more difficult to choose for the CO and less clear for the cache hunter who may need the correct information to determine whether or not their particular chair can handle the particular terrain.

 

I hope Groundspeak will be able to continue to provide accurate direction via their reviewers based on the direction technology is taking all of us with regard to wheelchairs and scooters. :D

Edited by ThePetersTrio
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With improvements in technology it isn't a stretch to see the future of mobility devices will ensure most handicapped people are able to handle more difficult terrains than just pavement. This is going to make the terrain guideline more difficult to choose for the CO and less clear for the cache hunter who may need the correct information to determine whether or not their particular chair can handle the particular terrain.

I hope Groundspeak will be able to continue to provide accurate direction via their reviewers based on the direction technology is taking all of us with regard to wheelchairs and scooters. :D

There was a great thread here a couple of years ago where actual whellchair users discussed all the various levels of ability. As with all of us, wheelchair users are a very diverse group (as is their hardware)

 

However, wheelchair accessability is not limited to those that are permanantly bound to a wheelchair. It could be someone that is only temporarily wheelchair bound, and they will probably not have the expensive, high-tech solution.

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However, wheelchair accessability is not limited to those that are permanantly bound to a wheelchair. It could be someone that is only temporarily wheelchair bound, and they will probably not have the expensive, high-tech solution.

 

Yeah, like my step dad who certainly was never bound to his scooter and now doesn't need it at all. :mad:

 

I realize "expensive" and "high tech" is relative, but a lot more people, regardless of their prognosis, are seeing the value of all terrain mobility devices even in the short term.

 

Thanks for the link though - interesting read from a couple of years back. :D

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However, wheelchair accessability is not limited to those that are permanantly bound to a wheelchair. It could be someone that is only temporarily wheelchair bound, and they will probably not have the expensive, high-tech solution.

 

Yeah, like my step dad who certainly was never bound to his scooter and now doesn't need it at all. :)

 

I realize "expensive" and "high tech" is relative, but a lot more people, regardless of their prognosis, are seeing the value of all terrain mobility devices even in the short term.

 

Thanks for the link though - interesting read from a couple of years back. :mad:

 

"I am recently told that attitudes have changed and that a 1 star terrain no longer is required to be wheelchair accessible." "Is this really true?" :D:mad::mad:

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IMHO if the cache cannot be accessed someone in a wheel chair, it should not be rated 1 for terran. If you have to go across a lawn, that is not 1 terrain. I was going to rate a cache 1 for terrain, but my QC depatment said: "Silly dolphin. A person in a wheelchair cannot read that plaque!" Thus the terrain is 1.5. I'm all in favor of saving 1 terrain for people in wheelchairs. Watch for things like curbs! Yes. I do have a few that are 1 terrain. Anyone in a wheechair can find the cache and sign the log!

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As we have a daughter wheelchair bound, I like to keep an idea in my head of what some of our mobility impaired friends can do. I much prefer the thought that a terrain 1 should be wheelchair accessible, a 1.5 could be just off the pathway with level terrain. And like has been pointed out, the ATV wheelchairs are not always the ones in use.

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I am sorry but i do not feel that one star = wheel chair accessible. There is an attribute and there is the ability do pocket queries for those attributes. I got a little upset when i placed a cache that was a foot or two from the sidewalk on level grass covered ground just our of reach for someone in a wheelchair and i got flack for giving it a one star rating. I have also had a reviewer ask me to change the rating on one of my caches in a similar situation. I feel they should probably change the guidelines or let it go.

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I am sorry but i do not feel that one star = wheel chair accessible. There is an attribute and there is the ability do pocket queries for those attributes. I got a little upset when i placed a cache that was a foot or two from the sidewalk on level grass covered ground just our of reach for someone in a wheelchair and i got flack for giving it a one star rating. I have also had a reviewer ask me to change the rating on one of my caches in a similar situation. I feel they should probably change the guidelines or let it go.

 

The convention has been there since 2001. Changing it now would suddenly put thousands of caches out of compliance. It is a reasonable convention so there are no benefits to changing it that I can think of. If the terrain is such that a handicapped person can't reach it then it likely is at least 1.5 stars.

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I am sorry but i do not feel that one star = wheel chair accessible. There is an attribute and there is the ability do pocket queries for those attributes. I got a little upset when i placed a cache that was a foot or two from the sidewalk on level grass covered ground just our of reach for someone in a wheelchair and i got flack for giving it a one star rating. I have also had a reviewer ask me to change the rating on one of my caches in a similar situation. I feel they should probably change the guidelines or let it go.
There are VERY few caches that should be rated a 1 terrain. I have two caching friends that have had to use a wheelchair for a period of time, and boy, could they fill your ears with tales of "1 star" caches that were impossible to do from a wheelchair. What harm does it do to you or your cache to honor this convention and raise your 1T caches to a 1.5T compared to the inconvenience of a wheelchair bound cacher going to your 1T cache, only to find that they can't quite reach it?
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I am sorry but i do not feel that one star = wheel chair accessible. There is an attribute and there is the ability do pocket queries for those attributes. I got a little upset when i placed a cache that was a foot or two from the sidewalk on level grass covered ground just our of reach for someone in a wheelchair and i got flack for giving it a one star rating. I have also had a reviewer ask me to change the rating on one of my caches in a similar situation. I feel they should probably change the guidelines or let it go.
There are VERY few caches that should be rated a 1 terrain. I have two caching friends that have had to use a wheelchair for a period of time, and boy, could they fill your ears with tales of "1 star" caches that were impossible to do from a wheelchair. What harm does it do to you or your cache to honor this convention and raise your 1T caches to a 1.5T compared to the inconvenience of a wheelchair bound cacher going to your 1T cache, only to find that they can't quite reach it?
I agree. If a wheelchair can't get to it, then it must not be the easiest to get to...
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My brother has been in a wheelchair since he had a logging accident 20 years ago. He is considered a "quad" even though he does have use of his hands, just not fine motor skills like writing well or a strong grip. He does have to be careful about leaning to far or he falls out due to no abdominal muscles.

 

It has never stopped him from going across a lawn or grass. He even drives and raised a son as a single parent.

 

 

With improvements in technology it isn't a stretch to see the future of mobility devices will ensure most handicapped people are able to handle more difficult terrains than just pavement.

 

The Future is NOW!!

 

homemiddle.jpg

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My brother has been in a wheelchair since he had a logging accident 20 years ago. He is considered a "quad" even though he does have use of his hands, just not fine motor skills like writing well or a strong grip. He does have to be careful about leaning to far or he falls out due to no abdominal muscles.

It has never stopped him from going across a lawn or grass. He even drives and raised a son as a single parent.

With improvements in technology it isn't a stretch to see the future of mobility devices will ensure most handicapped people are able to handle more difficult terrains than just pavement.

The Future is NOW!!

homemiddle.jpg

Sweet machine! Looks like you could explore Mars with that! But that isn't what your insurance company is going to pay for if you, for example, rupture your Achilles tendon or a major leg bone fracture. Actually, I doubt that your brother's insurance would have paid for anything close to that (I hear you that you are not impying that in your post, by the way). My point is that the 1T rating needs to be reserved for the lowest common denominator of wheelchair caches and wheelchair cachers.
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My brother has been in a wheelchair since he had a logging accident 20 years ago. He is considered a "quad" even though he does have use of his hands, just not fine motor skills like writing well or a strong grip. He does have to be careful about leaning to far or he falls out due to no abdominal muscles.

It has never stopped him from going across a lawn or grass. He even drives and raised a son as a single parent.

With improvements in technology it isn't a stretch to see the future of mobility devices will ensure most handicapped people are able to handle more difficult terrains than just pavement.

The Future is NOW!!

homemiddle.jpg

Sweet machine! Looks like you could explore Mars with that! But that isn't what your insurance company is going to pay for if you, for example, rupture your Achilles tendon or a major leg bone fracture. Actually, I doubt that your brother's insurance would have paid for anything close to that (I hear you that you are not impying that in your post, by the way). My point is that the 1T rating needs to be reserved for the lowest common denominator of wheelchair caches and wheelchair cachers.

 

Actually my brother wouldn't want one like that. He couldn't climb into the drivers seat of his 72 Nova or his S10 blazer and pull it into the seat next to him.

 

Now explain what is the lowest common denominator of wheelchair cachers??

Paraplegic, quadriplegic, hospital type chair or the type many other permanent ambulatory wheelchair bound people use

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I am sorry but i do not feel that one star = wheel chair accessible. There is an attribute and there is the ability do pocket queries for those attributes. I got a little upset when i placed a cache that was a foot or two from the sidewalk on level grass covered ground just our of reach for someone in a wheelchair and i got flack for giving it a one star rating. I have also had a reviewer ask me to change the rating on one of my caches in a similar situation. I feel they should probably change the guidelines or let it go.

the way i see it is if i cant reach it even if its on a sidewalk from a sitting position, its a 1.5

not every wheelchair bound person carries a grabber.

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I am sorry but i do not feel that one star = wheel chair accessible. There is an attribute and there is the ability do pocket queries for those attributes. I got a little upset when i placed a cache that was a foot or two from the sidewalk on level grass covered ground just our of reach for someone in a wheelchair and i got flack for giving it a one star rating. I have also had a reviewer ask me to change the rating on one of my caches in a similar situation. I feel they should probably change the guidelines or let it go.

the way i see it is if i cant reach it even if its on a sidewalk from a sitting position, its a 1.5

not every wheelchair bound person carries a grabber.

 

Which is exactly correct and is why so many 1.0's ought to be rated 1.5. My personal observation, of course. :rolleyes:

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I am sorry but i do not feel that one star = wheel chair accessible. There is an attribute and there is the ability do pocket queries for those attributes. I got a little upset when i placed a cache that was a foot or two from the sidewalk on level grass covered ground just our of reach for someone in a wheelchair and i got flack for giving it a one star rating. I have also had a reviewer ask me to change the rating on one of my caches in a similar situation. I feel they should probably change the guidelines or let it go.

the way i see it is if i cant reach it even if its on a sidewalk from a sitting position, its a 1.5

not every wheelchair bound person carries a grabber.

 

Which is exactly correct and is why so many 1.0's ought to be rated 1.5. My personal observation, of course. :rolleyes:

I always comment in my log if I run across one that's rated improperly just to educate the hider and hopefully get the rating changed.
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I am sorry but i do not feel that one star = wheel chair accessible. There is an attribute and there is the ability do pocket queries for those attributes. I got a little upset when i placed a cache that was a foot or two from the sidewalk on level grass covered ground just our of reach for someone in a wheelchair and i got flack for giving it a one star rating. I have also had a reviewer ask me to change the rating on one of my caches in a similar situation. I feel they should probably change the guidelines or let it go.

the way i see it is if i cant reach it even if its on a sidewalk from a sitting position, its a 1.5

not every wheelchair bound person carries a grabber.

 

Personally, I think it would be silly for a wheelchair cacher to NOT carry a grabber.

 

That is why my 1.0 cache is rated 1.0

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Thanks everyone for entering into the discussion, just to clarify, I am a wheelchair using cacher, I have been since I started.

 

The reason for my asking this question now, is that I recently saw a cache published with a terrain of 1, it's in my district so I took a look at the cache page only to find the no wheelchairs attribute has been engaged as well.

 

I dropped said reviewer a note asking if it was an oversight. Apparently it is not an oversight and he is happy for a 1 star not to be wheelchair accessible ... so after 938 finds and 17 hides, it seems it is getting more confusing playing the game rather than easier! :rolleyes:

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Personally, I think it would be silly for a wheelchair cacher to NOT carry a grabber.

 

 

... and I personally find lots of things silly, but try not to make judgements about people until I have walked a mile in their shoes, or rolled a mile in their chair as the case is. :rolleyes:

 

A grabber is fine for quite a lot of retrieval but I think you will find it's not all that easy using one to replace some caches.

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Personally, I think it would be silly for a wheelchair cacher to NOT carry a grabber.

 

 

... and I personally find lots of things silly, but try not to make judgements about people until I have walked a mile in their shoes, or rolled a mile in their chair as the case is. :rolleyes:

 

A grabber is fine for quite a lot of retrieval but I think you will find it's not all that easy using one to replace some caches.

 

I will easily concede those points.

My experience comes from being partially disabled a few times in my life and from experience working with partially disabled people. I know some have limitations they can't overcome and others have limitations they have to overcome.

The first time I saw a paraplegic skiing I was impressed enough to know that people who have limitations will find ways to overcome as many limitations as they can, if they are inclined. So, for caching, I would think that would include a grabber.

 

I would suggest that you contact Groundspeak to inform them of the reviewer informing you of the 1.0 terr not being wheelchair friendly. It's pretty well accepted that 1.0 terr means WC friendly. As I may have said before, when I listed my 1.0 cache the reviewer asked me specifically if it was WC friendly. I usually add attributes after publication.

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Personally, I think it would be silly for a wheelchair cacher to NOT carry a grabber.

 

 

... and I personally find lots of things silly, but try not to make judgements about people until I have walked a mile in their shoes, or rolled a mile in their chair as the case is. :ph34r:

 

A grabber is fine for quite a lot of retrieval but I think you will find it's not all that easy using one to replace some caches.

 

Perfect. Thank you. :rolleyes:

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I spent some time in a wheelchair earlier this year when I couldn't do much more than just lay down. My most recently placed cache is about as easy as it gets. It does require wheels to leave pavement, but the ground is firm and ought to hold up, at least when dry. I added a handicacher rating to the page to help disabled cachers decide if it's within their abilities or not.

 

At first I thought it was kinda silly for a 1 rating to be reserved for disabled cachers, but the more I've thought about it, the more I think it should be made official in the guidelines. But, folks in chairs aren't the only disabled people out there looking for caches. The current rating/attribute system doesn't really have anything for crutches or walkers or anything like that.

 

I think it's reasonable for a 1 rating to be disabled-accessible, but I do see how a walker could be used to access the site, but a wheelchair may not. I don't inherently have a problem with someone having a 1 rated cache not accessible by wheelchair that is still accessible with crutches or a walker.

 

Someone on crutches would have a more difficult time with my cache than someone in a chair. The chair has surface area to hold it up. Crutches would sink into the soil.

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Thanks everyone for entering into the discussion, just to clarify, I am a wheelchair using cacher, I have been since I started.

 

The reason for my asking this question now, is that I recently saw a cache published with a terrain of 1, it's in my district so I took a look at the cache page only to find the no wheelchairs attribute has been engaged as well.

 

I dropped said reviewer a note asking if it was an oversight. Apparently it is not an oversight and he is happy for a 1 star not to be wheelchair accessible ... so after 938 finds and 17 hides, it seems it is getting more confusing playing the game rather than easier! :rolleyes:

 

Thats not right. They should have the standards evenly applied as much as possible. 1 star terrain should be wheelchair accessible.

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My brother has been in a wheelchair since he had a logging accident 20 years ago. He is considered a "quad" even though he does have use of his hands, just not fine motor skills like writing well or a strong grip. He does have to be careful about leaning to far or he falls out due to no abdominal muscles.

 

It has never stopped him from going across a lawn or grass. He even drives and raised a son as a single parent.

 

People should never underestimate the handicapped. My aunt was confined to a wheelchair for most of her life, but still managed to get a Pennsyvania drivers licence using a specially equipped van until the rhematoid arthiritis got the best of her gripping ability :rolleyes: .

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being able to stand does not change the terrain, I stand with my opinion if it is attached with a magnet at 6.5 any capable person can just walk up to it that is a 1 star terrain.

 

The rating system we have now is the real problem... we use it because it's what is available... same for the attributes... they are as good as we have.

I've said before on this topic... What might be required is an Accessibility rating as well. There are too many variables involved... I have been caring for one cache that has firm ground most of the time... it is rated a 1 ( under reconsideration at this time) but for a lot of the searchable area, there isn't much headroom ( a chair would be an advantage for some of it) to permit a chair to get in there. Same goes for width and manoeuvering room. In it's current form one in theory has room to get to the cache, I've yet to come up with anything but a folding lawn chair to try it with... that is lower than most w/c I've used, but I'm not sure I could reach the container or put it back from one for real.. and I'm mostly unimpaired that way at present.

 

I'd like to see something to address the practical side of this... like 1 = can be accessed from average chair without assistance (who decides?) up to 5 = you better bring several able assistants. That part of rating would be best done by the handi community of cachers... But it would leave the Terrain ratings for the landscape itself. I've seen a few rated higher that would have been reached by chair with a little assistance, but not anything special...

 

Anyway, I'm trying to nudge that one into the right rating slot, now if people would just put the container back where it was intended to be... sigh.

 

I'm sure that the Winter Accessible attribute causes a few problems in this regard to... snow, seasonal debris and even camera toting tourists could impede a cacher in the right climate zone... Anyone know if Winter means WINTER or does it mean snow, ice etc... I could see Winter in Hawaii being quite different than up here (-23C today). Same goes for seasonal changes... when do the D/T ratings (A too) apply? Nice summer weather or at some other time of year/day or weather conditions?

 

Doug

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being able to stand does not change the terrain, I stand with my opinion if it is attached with a magnet at 6.5 any capable person can just walk up to it that is a 1 star terrain.

...but it is not just about the caqche is it? It's about the route to the cache from the suggested parking or trailhead as well as far as I know.

 

Otherwise you could have a lampost cache at the top of a mountain, the mountain only accessible using ropes and climbing and still call it one star,now that would be a mockery wouldn't it? :rolleyes:

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The terrain rating, to my understanding, includes any part of the path to the cache from a commonly used mobility instrument (meaning car, bike, motorcycle, etc.). Whatever the worst part of the terrain, that is how it is rated. So, if it's all flat except for that little 5 foot hill at the end, you rate it for that 5 foot hill. Likewise if you have to duck down under one spot, you rate it for the spot you have to duck down.

A true 1.0 terrain is one where anyone could use any ambulatory system including wheelchair, to get to the cache. It also consders that people are of many varying heights as well so if the cache is 8 feet high, obviously it is not a 1.0 terrain. Nor should any cache over 5' high be classified as a 1.0 terrain as someone who is only 4' tall could not walk right up to it.

 

Arguments can also be made for any cache 12" or lower could not be a 1.0 terrain since one would have to get down on at least one knee to retrieve the cache.

 

The terrain rating isn't just about flatness and firmness of the ground.

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Pyewacket wrote this article on the subject. It should be required reading for all cache hiders thinking of placing a wheelchair-friendly cache.

 

I have a handicapped daughter who dearly loves caching. She is not wheelchair bound anymore, but terrain ratings and attributes are something we must pay very close attention to. She can't handle much more than smooth flat ground and a properly rated 1 terrain is very much appreciated.

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so what your saying is that if i have a beautiful park in my neighborhood with a piece of metal sculpture that is feet from parking that a cache can be placed in at a height of 6.5 feet with no reaching for a fully capable person that this cache should have anything more than a 1 star rating, i disagree.

and this is properly rated according to the guidelines.

Edited by bafl01
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It also consders that people are of many varying heights as well so if the cache is 8 feet high, obviously it is not a 1.0 terrain. Nor should any cache over 5' high be classified as a 1.0 terrain as someone who is only 4' tall could not walk right up to it.

 

Arguments can also be made for any cache 12" or lower could not be a 1.0 terrain since one would have to get down on at least one knee to retrieve the cache.

 

The terrain rating isn't just about flatness and firmness of the ground.

 

Surely if a cache is over 5' high or below 12" that will be reflected in the difficulty rating, not the terrain?

 

Terrain rating: 1

* Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)

Note, Clayjar doesn't mention wheelchairs specifically in his rating system. Handicapped can mean an awful lot of different things to different people - the only indication that a cache is wheelchair accessible should be the attribute.

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so what your saying is that if i have a beautiful park in my neighborhood with a piece of metal sculpture that is feet from parking that a cache can be placed in at a height of 6.5 feet with no reaching for a fully capable person that this cache should have anything more than a 1 star rating, i disagree.

and this is properly rated according to the guidelines.

 

Please define "fully capable person" for me. I may have severe arthritis and use crutches, a wheelchair at times and can sometimes even walk to a cache with a cane.

 

I would also like to know how rating your hide as a 1.5 harms you or your cache.

 

Sorry to cramp your style of caching....

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so what your saying is that if i have a beautiful park in my neighborhood with a piece of metal sculpture that is feet from parking that a cache can be placed in at a height of 6.5 feet with no reaching for a fully capable person that this cache should have anything more than a 1 star rating, i disagree.

and this is properly rated according to the guidelines.

 

Please define "fully capable person" for me. I may have severe arthritis and use crutches, a wheelchair at times and can sometimes even walk to a cache with a cane.

 

I would also like to know how rating your hide as a 1.5 harms you or your cache.

 

Sorry to cramp your style of caching....

 

And that's the crux of it, isn't it?

 

If a terrain couldn't possibly be any easier, then it's a 1.0 If it CAN be easier then it's at least a 1.5 IMHO

Wouldn't you agree?

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so what your saying is that if i have a beautiful park in my neighborhood with a piece of metal sculpture that is feet from parking that a cache can be placed in at a height of 6.5 feet with no reaching for a fully capable person that this cache should have anything more than a 1 star rating, i disagree.

and this is properly rated according to the guidelines.

 

Please define "fully capable person" for me. I may have severe arthritis and use crutches, a wheelchair at times and can sometimes even walk to a cache with a cane.

 

I would also like to know how rating your hide as a 1.5 harms you or your cache.

 

Sorry to cramp your style of caching....

 

And that's the crux of it, isn't it?

 

If a terrain couldn't possibly be any easier, then it's a 1.0 If it CAN be easier then it's at least a 1.5 IMHO

Wouldn't you agree?

 

Excuse me if I am being stupid but I do not understand this...^

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so what your saying is that if i have a beautiful park in my neighborhood with a piece of metal sculpture that is feet from parking that a cache can be placed in at a height of 6.5 feet with no reaching for a fully capable person that this cache should have anything more than a 1 star rating, i disagree.

and this is properly rated according to the guidelines.

 

Please define "fully capable person" for me. I may have severe arthritis and use crutches, a wheelchair at times and can sometimes even walk to a cache with a cane.

 

I would also like to know how rating your hide as a 1.5 harms you or your cache.

 

Sorry to cramp your style of caching....

 

And that's the crux of it, isn't it?

 

If a terrain couldn't possibly be any easier, then it's a 1.0 If it CAN be easier then it's at least a 1.5 IMHO

Wouldn't you agree?

 

Excuse me if I am being stupid but I do not understand this...^

 

Are you partaking of holiday spirits? :rolleyes:

 

I was agreeing with you. It's not going to hurt someone's cache if they rate it 1.5.

Basically if anyone feels a terrain isn't really a 1.0, then it should be higher. It's not like people would stop searching for a cache because it has a 1.5 terrain, unless they were only able to cache 1.0 terrain. And, if I'm being dense, the only person who might not be able to traverse a 1.5 terrain is someone in a wheelchair with little mobility. Many wheelchair users could navigate a 1.5 from my observations.

Edited by bittsen
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so what your saying is that if i have a beautiful park in my neighborhood with a piece of metal sculpture that is feet from parking that a cache can be placed in at a height of 6.5 feet with no reaching for a fully capable person that this cache should have anything more than a 1 star rating, i disagree.

and this is properly rated according to the guidelines.

 

Please define "fully capable person" for me. I may have severe arthritis and use crutches, a wheelchair at times and can sometimes even walk to a cache with a cane.

 

I would also like to know how rating your hide as a 1.5 harms you or your cache.

 

Sorry to cramp your style of caching....

 

And that's the crux of it, isn't it?

 

If a terrain couldn't possibly be any easier, then it's a 1.0 If it CAN be easier then it's at least a 1.5 IMHO

Wouldn't you agree?

 

Excuse me if I am being stupid but I do not understand this...^

 

Are you partaking of holiday spirits? :rolleyes:

 

I was agreeing with you. It's not going to hurt someone's cache if they rate it 1.5.

Basically if anyone feels a terrain isn't really a 1.0, then it should be higher. It's not like people would stop searching for a cache because it has a 1.5 terrain, unless they were only able to cache 1.0 terrain. And, if I'm being dense, the only person who might not be able to traverse a 1.5 terrain is someone in a wheelchair with little mobility. Many wheelchair users could navigate a 1.5 from my observations.

 

I wish I was partaking in the holiday spirits! My meds do not allow me to imbibe. (wish they did though).

Lets just say I am fuzzy headed.

 

Merry Christmas bittsen.

 

Bruce.

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And that's the crux of it, isn't it?

 

If a terrain couldn't possibly be any easier, then it's a 1.0 If it CAN be easier then it's at least a 1.5 IMHO

Wouldn't you agree?

 

Exactly, for me that's the heart of the matter.

 

1 star terrain with unsuitable for wheelchairs attribute is a bit of a contradiction in terms.

 

Yet, the caches exist ... sadly.

 

I am starting to wonder exactly what the reviewers are checking ...

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Terrain 1 means that it should be accessible to ANYBODY (who is not paralyzed and bed-ridden, anyhow...). That includes wheelchair users, of course. I do not think it is redundant to have this guideline together with wheelchair-accessible attribute. Terrain 1 is more general than the attribute; for instance, it also means that the location is safe and comfortable for very small children. So, for instance, an asphalt path strewn with lots of garbage, used needles and broken glass may be wheelchair accessible, yet, in my view, not terrain 1 (why you'd want to place a cache at such a location is another matter, but I've certainly seen caches at some less than savoury places). Not to mention that a lot of cache owners do not even use the attribute feature.

 

My "favourite" terrain 1 cache is one in a ravine, that requires some bushwhacking and playing in mud. Some wheelchair access!

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I am starting to wonder exactly what the reviewers are checking ...

Nothing, technically. There's nothing in the listing guidelines mandating a proper difficulty and terrain rating. That being said, many (most?) reviewers do leave an *advisory* note in cases where the terrain is rated one star, and there's no "accessible" attribute, or if the terrain rating and the accessibility attribute are mismatched. These notes are numbers one and two on my "list" of form letters.

 

We do not hold up publication of caches where the accessibility issue is not clear. That would require either a guidelines update or a Memo from Signal the Frog.

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being able to stand does not change the terrain, I stand with my opinion if it is attached with a magnet at 6.5 any capable person can just walk up to it that is a 1 star terrain.

So people below 5 feet are not fully capable, in your view. And you might as well forget trying to bring kids along for a fun search... they can't reach that high.

 

In my opinion, very few caches should be rated 1. It just means it cannot get ANY easier to get to it. I think what you're doing is trying to make the terrain rating system be of maximal use to YOU. If you consider something easy, then you see no point in differentiating between relative difficulty of those easy caches. Never mind that many (such as people in wheelchairs) may significantly benefit from such a differentiation.

 

I might have had slightly more sympathy with your viewpoint if there were very few rating choices available for terrain (e.g. 2 or 3), which meant each category had to be quite broad. But with the present system we have 8 different terrain ratings between 1 and 5, and surely some differentiation can happen at the low end.

 

When I personally look at caches, I do not differentiate between ratings of 1 and 1.5, knowing that they are going to be equally easy for me: I won't care if I have to walk across a lawn to get to it or reach up a bit. However, I realize it can make a difference to those in wheelchairs or a family with strollers out on a kid-friendly geowalk, so I'm glad the differentiation exists, to the benefit of all cachers, not just the ones you smugly defined as "fully capable".

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Surely if a cache is over 5' high or below 12" that will be reflected in the difficulty rating, not the terrain?

 

Um.. not on this side of the pond, it isn't. Difficulty here is rated strictly upon how tough the cache is to locate, not the gymnastics required to find it - with the exception noted in the last entry which leads to the "special equipment clause". Clayjar provides the following to establish difficulty:

 

Cache is in plain sight or location is fairly obvious.

 

Cache could be in one of several locations. Hunter may have to look for a while.

 

Cache may be very well hidden, may be multi-leg, or may use clues to location.

 

Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find

 

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

 

Please consider visibility, accessibility, and relative signal strength due to tree cover or other obstructions when answering this question.

Edited by ecanderson
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