Prediction for the Geocaching market segment

[+user13371]

Within two years - four at the outside - I expect the DeLorme will dominate the Geocaching market segment the way Garmin does now.

 

This is not to say DeLorme will overtake Garmin in any other market segment, nor to suggest technical superiiority in DeLorme's products. BUT -- DeLorme doesn't have to make a technically superior product. They've clearly targeted the Geocaching market segment, made the PN-series good enough for that purpose, and sell the bundle at an attractive price.

 

There are many things that could foul up that prediction, but I wanted it on record here that I believe it. Hopefully sometime in a few years I'll have a chance to point back at this post and say "Told ya!" -- and if I'm wrong nobody will remember or remind me

[NordicMan]

Ok so,, how many other "similar yet different" viewpoint threads are you gonna post up so as to be able to pull up "the right one" in a few years?

 

You got a point. Years ago Magellan was a superpower in outdoor GPSr's but they withered away for various reasons.. Delorme definitely has a firm foothold and a good foundation to build from.. time will tell.

 

Also, I've got a few "virtual bucks" put down on Lowrance stocks too..

[+achtung6]

Within two years - four at the outside - I expect the DeLorme will dominate the Geocaching market segment the way Garmin does now.

 

This is not to say DeLorme will overtake Garmin in any other market segment, nor to suggest technical superiiority in DeLorme's products. BUT -- DeLorme doesn't have to make a technically superior product. They've clearly targeted the Geocaching market segment, made the PN-series good enough for that purpose, and sell the bundle at an attractive price.

 

There are many things that could foul up that prediction, but I wanted it on record here that I believe it. Hopefully sometime in a few years I'll have a chance to point back at this post and say "Told ya!" -- and if I'm wrong nobody will remember or remind me

 

If nothing else the included software on the DeLorme units is going to help them gain ground and the clear mainstay in the handheld GPSr market. I just arrived on this scene and for me, the choice of which unit to buy was clear. Buy one that has everything you need in the box or buy the one that is sold piece by piece.

 

This has nothing to do with one being better than the other but rather which one is more user friendly ($) for the person just jumping into the hobby.

 

My two cents.

[+CacheFreakTim]

I argue that in 5-10 years we will not have handhead GPS units, digital cameras, mp3 players, or ebook readers. If you have used the iPhone you know what I am talking about. I believe everything will be integrated into the phones.

 

If you look at what the iPhone, blackberry, or android phones are today it is not far fetched to think shortly they will have the quality and specs to match all handheld GPS units today. Hell I am finding a hard reason to use a handheld GPS over the iphone today. Sure the GPS isnt as perfect but it does almost everything that the Garmin Oregon/Dakota series does as well as the Delorme units.

 

Im sure many will disagree with this but I dont think we are far off from these units disappearing. The good news out of all of this is that it will force Garmin and Delorme to step it up and put some kick a** features in their units at great prices.

[+user13371]

how many other "similar yet different" viewpoint threads are you gonna post up so as to be able to pull up "the right one" in a few years?

Don't know, it depends on what else I see in market trends.

 

I have no stock, virtual or otherwise, in any dedicated GPS mker. But I do have (real) stock in Apple and AT&T.

Edited December 15, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+achtung6]

I argue that in 5-10 years we will not have handhead GPS units, digital cameras, mp3 players, or ebook readers. If you have used the iPhone you know what I am talking about. I believe everything will be integrated into the phones.

 

If you look at what the iPhone, blackberry, or android phones are today it is not far fetched to think shortly they will have the quality and specs to match all handheld GPS units today. Hell I am finding a hard reason to use a handheld GPS over the iphone today. Sure the GPS isnt as perfect but it does almost everything that the Garmin Oregon/Dakota series does as well as the Delorme units.

 

Im sure many will disagree with this but I dont think we are far off from these units disappearing. The good news out of all of this is that it will force Garmin and Delorme to step it up and put some kick a** features in their units at great prices.

 

This is all true except when your (and mine!) iPhone is outside good cellular coverage....then you have nothing. Heck, this happens to me in San Francisco (not exactly the boonies!). Besides, I'm a gadgets man so just one do it all gadget is against my religion anyway

[+Curioddity]

I argue that in 5-10 years we will not have handhead GPS units, digital cameras, mp3 players, or ebook readers. If you have used the iPhone you know what I am talking about. I believe everything will be integrated into the phones.

Hell, in 5-10 years we might all have wireless computer implants.

 

Pete

[+Team CowboyPapa]

I argue that in 5-10 years we will not have handhead GPS units, digital cameras, mp3 players, or ebook readers. If you have used the iPhone you know what I am talking about. I believe everything will be integrated into the phones.

Hell, in 5-10 years we might all have wireless computer implants.

 

Pete

And I might add that I advise agains arguing with Pete.

He is a local cacher and a personal friend.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

Hell, in 5-10 years we might all have wireless computer implants.

 

Pete

What are you waiting for?

Did you take a close look at the back of my neck?

My RFID?

Well my familty doctor didn't do it,

but I'll take you where I had it also done to my dogs,

my DVM on Bolsa and Edwards.

[+Pulvertoastmann]

Within two years - four at the outside - I expect the DeLorme will dominate the Geocaching market segment the way Garmin does now.

 

Just to have that on record too:

 

I doubt it

 

The only chance for your dream to come true would be DeLorme starting to sell their products worldwide, while keeping the price low.

 

Unless they do that, there's technically no chance for them to overtake garmin.

 

Let me explain: As far as I know there are like 400.000 caches in the US (source: german wikipedia), while there are 950.000 caches worldwide. If we assume for now the number of caches in a certain area is proportional to the number of active (!) cachers, then less than half of all cachers worldwide have the opportunity to use a DeLorme unit anyway, simply because noone outside the US is able / allowed to use or even buy DeLorme.

If every single US cacher would prefer DeLorme over other brands, it still wouldn't work.

Even if the assumption I made above is seriously inaccurate, it still gives an impression of the dimensions we're talking about here - almost every US cacher would need to buy DeLorme AND there need to be WAY more cachers per hidden cache in the US compared to the rest of the world for your prophecy to come true

 

Last but not least, in my opinion "Garmin" is a much better brand name than "DeLorme", so even if everything I wrote above is wrong, the name "DeLorme" will stop DeLorme in time.

[+keehotee]

Within two years - four at the outside - I expect the DeLorme will dominate the Geocaching market segment the way Garmin does now.

 

 

They won't - until they realise there's a big old world outside the US...

[+bunkerdave]

Devices like the iPhone will overtake Garmin long before Delorme.

All the iPhone 3GS needs is the ability to store data offline (I am not sure it doens't already do this by saving PQs) and a better compass navigator and it will be far better as far as cache data management than anything else out there. I am now running a 550T and its been terrific, just like the 400T I had before it.

 

The data show that geocachers are a very small segment of GPS users. THe vast majority of GPS users are drivers who just want directions without asking for them. Look at the number of road navigation GPS units vs the number of outdoor recreation GPS units in Garmin's and Magellan's product line. On top of that, what's with that TINY screen on the Delormes? I predict that all Delorme users will be blind from eyestrain within the next 5 years. Geocaching functions are a great thing...Garmin did that in 2004 with the 60CS, and has never looked back. If you haven't seen the Geocaching functions on the Oregon/Colorado lineups, you really don't know what you're missing. Oh - and the 550 holds 5000 caches as PQs (besides the 50000 I loaded as POIs).

 

Magellan is twisting in the wind. Bought a Triton 2000 recently to see how it would do, and hated everything about it....except for listiening to music and watching MP3s. It went back to the store.

 

Lastly, customer support. I don't know what it's like with Delorme, but I know very well what it's like with Magellan (nonexistent). Garmin's is awesome. Serioualy, a model of customer support. Every time I have needed them (and every time it has been my own fault I did need them) they have been very helpful, reasonable, and responsive. I even wrote them once just to ask them if they had any t-shirts or hats I oculd buy to give away at one of our club events, and they sent me two hats and two shirts - for free.

 

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone would spend their hard-earned money on any other GPS. I love the iPhone with the GC app, and since my girlfriend got hers, I have found it very useful and convenient, but any real geocacher carries a real GPS. And in my book, that means a Garmin. That's like buying something to go off-road that isn't a Jeep. IT just doesn't make SENSE.

[+user13371]

BunkerDave, you and others may be right: Smartphones could overtake every dedicated GPS in the market segments of "fair weather" GPS usage. That includes most geocaching, vehicle navigation, and all the general "where's the nearest cafe?" kinds of navigation. But more specialized segments where folks use dedicated GPS units (cartography, surveying, search and rescue, aviation and marine, "hard core" outdoor activities, etc.), are probably safe for a while from smartphones eroding their niches.

 

At the moment, iPhones are gaining geocaching users faster than Garmin, both in unit count and percentage gains in the past few months. After Apple and Garmin, nobody else even comes close -- both of them added more geocaching users in the past few weeks of holiday shopping than the next closest brands have total number of users.

 

But that doesn't mean the established brands will simply cede that market segment segment. Garmin did bring out the Android-based nuviphone; it's still too soon to see if that will get significant market share. And you haven't seen the DeLorme PH-100 yet! The market will choose and in each segment products will either evolve or die.

Edited December 20, 2009 by lee_rimar

[Suscrofa]

Wehn you need a gun, then you really need it and the best ! Same for GPS ! I wouldn't trust my life to a flimsy complicated gadget outside of a city. Didn't notice that many power outlets on trees either.

 

But yes, the market segment for standard GPS is shrinking as for paper maps and simple compass yet they are still there.

[+keehotee]

 

At the moment, iPhones are gaining geocaching users faster than Garmin,

 

Or..... more existing cachers are registering that they now own iPhones - depending on how you interpret your stats.

I very much doubt they are all ditching their GPSs in favour of their new wondertoy.

[+user13371]

Keehotee, you might have worded it differently but I'm not sure that's substantially different from what I said.

 

Put another way: Since the 1st of Octobr, the number of folks who say they cache with an iPhone increased faster than any other GPS. Some of these may be "old" iPhone users who just decided to mention they use it for geocaching, or folks who just got the phone. Even if many or most are using the phone in conjunction with another GPS (as I do), it still points to accelerating smartphone penetration into the geocaching market.

Edited December 20, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+user13371]

... I wouldn't trust my life to a flimsy complicated gadget outside of a city...

Very reasonable - for someone who might find themselves in a survival situation.

 

But I venture to guess that the majority of geocachers are less hard core than that - so much less that "survival situation" means "some abstract thing that happens to other people."

[Ken in Regina]

Within two years - four at the outside - I expect the DeLorme will dominate the Geocaching market segment the way Garmin does now.

In order to have any chance of being correct you need to add one serious constraint. You need to add the phrase:

 

"... DeLorme will dominate ... ... in the continental United States of America."

 

...ken...

[Ken in Regina]

... less than half of all cachers worldwide have the opportunity to use a DeLorme unit anyway, simply because noone outside the US is able / allowed to use or even buy DeLorme.

I'm surprised the DeLorme fans let you get away with that.

 

- I live in Canada.

 

- Canada is outside the US (at least it was last time I checked).

 

- I can buy anything I want from DeLorme any time I want.

 

- I can use anything from DeLorme any time I want. Anywhere I want.

 

I just can't have much, if anything, in the way of maps if I want to use their stuff outside the continental US. Which is the point of my response to Lee.

 

...ken...

Edited December 21, 2009 by Ken in Regina

[+GrateBear]

I argue that in 5-10 years we will not have handhead GPS units, digital cameras, mp3 players, or ebook readers. If you have used the iPhone you know what I am talking about. I believe everything will be integrated into the phones.

 

If you look at what the iPhone, blackberry, or android phones are today it is not far fetched to think shortly they will have the quality and specs to match all handheld GPS units today. Hell I am finding a hard reason to use a handheld GPS over the iphone today. Sure the GPS isnt as perfect but it does almost everything that the Garmin Oregon/Dakota series does as well as the Delorme units.

 

 

A reason to use a handheld over an iPhone? How about the $80 - $100 per month an iPhone costs for a data plan? No way will I ever pay for that. It costs me $80/month just for a cell calling plan for 3 phones. I'm not about to double that to go caching.

[+RRLover]

My opinion is : "If one thinks DeLorme isn't in it for the long run, and not making internal

motions towards addressing a world market, than one must not be astutely reading posts

that are related to DeLorme's stance." Providing SD cards w/topo data of present offshore

theaters to purchasers via "PX" (w/privileges of course) is one example said to be forth-

coming post new year. Also Caleb stated that there are some unofficial sales occurring

outside the NA continent. Even a positive review e-published in Russian. I seriously think

that the manufacturer of serious devices is poised to cast seed upon the wind ...

 

Then again maybe not, but I suspect bright things behind door #3.

 

I'll take World Market for $500.00(virtual) Alex.

[All of North America . . . and beyond]

 

{Where is DeLorme heading?}

Norm

 

P. S. : I wonder if my RR has moved a 'can' full o' desert camo PN-30s recently, . . .

only Customs & DeLorme know for sure

Edited December 21, 2009 by RRLover

[+RRLover]

... less than half of all cachers worldwide have the opportunity to use a DeLorme unit anyway, simply because noone outside the US is able / allowed to use or even buy DeLorme.

I'm surprised the DeLorme fans let you get away with that.

 

- I live in Canada.

 

- Canada is outside the US (at least it was last time I checked).

 

- I can buy anything I want from DeLorme any time I want.

 

- I can use anything from DeLorme any time I want. Anywhere I want.

 

I just can't have much, if anything, in the way of maps if I want to use their stuff outside the continental US. Which is the point of my response to Lee.

 

...ken...

Me thinks you need to re-visit DeLorme's posts regarding offerings for Canada, recent past, and

future planned.

 

Norm

[+user13371]

... How about the $80 - $100 per month an iPhone costs for a data plan? No way will I ever pay for that.

You're so wrong that you've gone right out the other side. You wouldn't pay that, because the basic iPhone plan in the US (voice + unlimited data) costs a total of $70/month. The data is a fixed $30 part of your bill. You could run your total bill up by adding lots of voice minutes or texting plans -- but to say "$80 - $100 per month an iPhone costs for a data plan" is an exaggeration.

 

Also, AT&T gives a discount on calling plans for employees of some companies, so some folks pay less. I work for a big company and my total iPhone bill is $56/month.

 

It costs me $80/month just for a cell calling plan for 3 phones. I'm not about to double that to go caching.

Yes, and adding a data plan to any one of your phones would also cost money. And if you did that just to get ONE feature (geocaching, for example) it would make that one feature seem very expensive.

 

But every single thing I do on the iPhone is trivial and by itself not worth the cost of the data plan. The combined value of all the things I do with it makes it a bargain.

 

I admit the $30, non-optional data plan is a reasonable objection for some people. But to suggest it's "$80 - $100 per month ... just to do geocaching" borders on ridiculous

 

---

edit to correct data plan costs

Edited December 21, 2009 by lee_rimar

[Ken in Regina]

Me thinks you need to re-visit DeLorme's posts regarding offerings for Canada, recent past, and

future planned.

Hi Norm,

 

I have SA 2010+. It tells me everything I need to know about DeLorme's presently available Canadian mapping content. Very mixed. Hardly evidence of something that will be industry-dominating - outside the continental US - any time soon. They would have to make vastly larger improvements than they have since my last version of SA (2008).

 

I don't need to revisit any posts about DeLorme "futures". I'm not interested in what they promise because I can't buy and use promises. In the future, when I'm ready to buy something new I will do the usual research.

 

...ken...

[+TotemLake]

Me thinks you need to re-visit DeLorme's posts regarding offerings for Canada, recent past, and

future planned.

Hi Norm,

 

I have SA 2010+. It tells me everything I need to know about DeLorme's presently available Canadian mapping content. Very mixed. Hardly evidence of something that will be industry-dominating - outside the continental US - any time soon. They would have to make vastly larger improvements than they have since my last version of SA (2008).

 

I don't need to revisit any posts about DeLorme "futures". I'm not interested in what they promise because I can't buy and use promises. In the future, when I'm ready to buy something new I will do the usual research.

...ken...

Which is fine. But RR's point was your information was needing updating. There are more offerings now on the table when 6 months ago there were only the street maps for Canada and Mexico, and there are more on the way. You might not think it's much, but a journey starts with small but sure steps towards the goal.

Edited December 22, 2009 by TotemLake

[Ken in Regina]

Hi TotemLake,

 

I don't disagree with what you say, nor with what RRlover said. It's quite possible that I'm not totally up to the minute on what DeLorme has promised. But...

 

I'm trying to keep my comments in the context of the original post, which stated:

 

Within two years - four at the outside - I expect the DeLorme will dominate the Geocaching market segment the way Garmin does now.

I'm starting from what I can buy today, which is the only relevant starting point. The recent addition of some raster pictures for Canada can definitely be defined as a small step. Really small.

 

From there, small future steps won't fit Lee's schedule unless you limit the prediction to the continental US.

 

Arguably it won't even do it there because the other guys aren't standing still and aren't settling for small steps to maintain or increase their dominance.

 

It most assuredly will not happen outside the continental USA even with relatively large steps.

 

Remember, Lee said "dominate", not just "be pretty darn good".

 

I respect that DeLorme has some fine products and that they are moving them forward. One day they may be easy even for those of us outside the USA to put on the short list for a new purchase. We live in hope.

 

But "dominate" in two to four years? Not hardly. Not outside the USA. Not even just in the geocaching niche market. So my original response to Lee stands, that his prediction only has a chance if he constrains it to the continental US.

 

My revisiting DeLorme's communications about recent small steps and future promises won't change that. And they don't interest me in any other context.

 

...ken...

[+RRLover]

5 years ago DeLorme didn't even market a consumer hand held device, t'was but a twinkle.

I think that now that the venture expenses are gaining a return, progress should be made at

a somewhat more rapid pace. If they can afford to mainstream some projects as opposed to

having them in tributary mode I think the stride will increase.

Remember the PN-XX devices were an experiment that blossomed, their "bread 'n' butter" still

lies in their commercial endeavors which 'spin down' to the consumer level via the PNs & Topo/

XMap pro. This consumer market is then fleshed out w/Street Atlas, then there's the paper

publishing segment, & the Govt. work too. There's also this Macintosh rabble within their midst,

as well as outside pounding on the door. I'd say they're doing quite well considering the # of irons

in the fire. Commendable to say the very least.

DeLorme may possess the largest globe(Ertha), but they're still a small Co. comparatively speaking.

 

Norm

Edited December 22, 2009 by RRLover

[+user13371]

Ken and others have pointed out DeLorme's lack of international support as an impediment to growing their market position in geocaching. This is true - for the moment. But in spite of what some folks have posted here, DeLorme does have international mapping products, and they do sell their products worldwide:

 

* Worldwide mapping: http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML//DELibeCCt...p?section=10640

* International orders: http://www.delorme.com/customerservice/int...onalorders.aspx

 

In order to grow that part of their business, they need to make these more accessible at the consumer level. With all due respect to Norm's fantasies, those existing product pages tell me there's a better chance of this hapoening than DeLorme focusing on something like Mac support.

 

Also, keep in mind that I am talking only about the geocaching segment, which is a tiny piece of market for handheld GPSRs in general overall. What really gave rise to my prediction was the idea that Garmin would start to neglect this niche while DeLorme would try more aggressively to work themselves into it. I mean "niche" in a very precise way: A small, isolated area protected/preserved by special conditions. Garmin is a huge company with a zillion diverse GPS products and can follow the money in a lot of directions. DeLorme is a small company focused on mapping products (GPS being just a way to sell maps), and has to look for specific niches they can sell into.

 

Geocaching is a good fit for DeLorme's handheld products, and Cache Register shows they're pursuing it -- perhaps even at the expense of other market segments.

Edited December 22, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+TotemLake]

Hi TotemLake,

 

I don't disagree with what you say, nor with what RRlover said. It's quite possible that I'm not totally up to the minute on what DeLorme has promised. But...

 

I'm trying to keep my comments in the context of the original post, which stated:

 

Within two years - four at the outside - I expect the DeLorme will dominate the Geocaching market segment the way Garmin does now.

I'm starting from what I can buy today, which is the only relevant starting point. The recent addition of some raster pictures for Canada can definitely be defined as a small step. Really small.

 

From there, small future steps won't fit Lee's schedule unless you limit the prediction to the continental US.

 

Arguably it won't even do it there because the other guys aren't standing still and aren't settling for small steps to maintain or increase their dominance.

 

It most assuredly will not happen outside the continental USA even with relatively large steps.

 

Remember, Lee said "dominate", not just "be pretty darn good".

 

I respect that DeLorme has some fine products and that they are moving them forward. One day they may be easy even for those of us outside the USA to put on the short list for a new purchase. We live in hope.

 

But "dominate" in two to four years? Not hardly. Not outside the USA. Not even just in the geocaching niche market. So my original response to Lee stands, that his prediction only has a chance if he constrains it to the continental US.

 

My revisiting DeLorme's communications about recent small steps and future promises won't change that. And they don't interest me in any other context.

 

...ken...

Given the context you provided here, I'll grant a "maybe" with your comments.

 

The link that was provided was to point at a comment Caleb made about what DeLorme has done to begin moving into the international market. DeLorme has rebuilt their world base map from the ground up to be able to address these very concerns. The rebuild was apparently required and accomplished to provide a capability to add more density to the data as they gain it. They are listening. They have been listening. And they have been delivering where they can knowing full well their foundation needed to be revamped for that delivery. I'd say stay tuned. We haven't seen the end of the show yet.

Edited December 22, 2009 by TotemLake

[+Searching_ut]

Delorme does indeed seem to targeting geocachers more than the other guys at the moment. That said, it will be interesting to see how much interest geocaching manages to maintain a few years from now, and what percentage of handheld gps users actually geocache. I know literally hundreds of people who use handheld gps units, but only of couple that geocache on a regular basis, and if anything, I think the number of geocachers I'm aware of is decreasing rather than growing in size.

 

The other thing that will be interesting to watch is what percentage of the population actually ventures outdoors, and whether or not there will be any areas of the country where you can actually get away from it all enough to actually make navigation of any significant importance. I seek out places to explore that are way off the beaten track, but find it's getting hard to find spots where there aren't many other people nearby.

[Ken in Regina]

The link that was provided was to point at a comment Caleb made about what DeLorme has done to begin moving into the international market. DeLorme has rebuilt their world base map from the ground up to be able to address these very concerns.

The world basemap in SA 2010 is very good. It's available today. In SA. Shucks, the SA roadmaps would be acceptable for caching, even in Canada, although perhaps not in countries where there is only the basemap. But...

 

The roadmaps from SA are not available on the PN-XX models.

 

I think you'll agree that SA, even on a netbook, isn't quite the right tool for geocaching.

 

...ken...

[+GrateBear]

... How about the $80 - $100 per month an iPhone costs for a data plan? No way will I ever pay for that.

You're so wrong that you've gone right out the other side. You wouldn't pay that, because the basic iPhone plan in the US (voice + unlimited data) costs a total of $70/month. The data is a fixed $30 part of your bill. You could run your total bill up by adding lots of voice minutes or texting plans -- but to say "$80 - $100 per month an iPhone costs for a data plan" is an exaggeration.

 

Also, AT&T gives a discount on calling plans for employees of some companies, so some folks pay less. I work for a big company and my total iPhone bill is $56/month.

 

It costs me $80/month just for a cell calling plan for 3 phones. I'm not about to double that to go caching.

Yes, and adding a data plan to any one of your phones would also cost money. And if you did that just to get ONE feature (geocaching, for example) it would make that one feature seem very expensive.

 

But every single thing I do on the iPhone is trivial and by itself not worth the cost of the data plan. The combined value of all the things I do with it makes it a bargain.

 

I admit the $30, non-optional data plan is a reasonable objection for some people. But to suggest it's "$80 - $100 per month ... just to do geocaching" borders on ridiculous

 

---

edit to correct data plan costs

 

For starters, I wouldn't even get an iPhone as I won't use AT&T. I tried them and the coverage in both Chicago and Boston was terrible. So, I can only imagine what it's like in Boise.

But, I know a couple of people with them, and their plans cost $80 -$100 per month. If the $30 you're talking about is for geocaching only, that doesn't sound financial wises to me. Who knows, and I don't care. I'm not paying $30 to go caching a handful of times every month.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

The tiny screen on the Delorme is objectionable to so many and has been mentioned in this post.

As consumer consious as Delorme seems to be are there plans to modify or re-design the PN-40 so it will have a bigger screen ?

If not for the small screen and hardware-software glitches I have read about I don't know why everyone wouldn't use the unit for geocaching considering free maps right out of the box......I know I would have got one by now.

[+user13371]

-duped post, oops-

Edited December 23, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+user13371]

I know a couple of people with (iPhones), and their plans cost $80 -$100 per month. If the $30 you're talking about is for geocaching only, that doesn't sound financial wises to me. Who knows, and I don't care. I'm not paying $30 to go caching a handful of times every month.

I agree with you it's not "financial wises" to pay for any smartphone data plan if your ONLY intention is to use it "to go caching a handful of times every month." Someone who sees it only as a potential geocaching tool with no other possible use should not buy one.

 

By analogy, I don't own an automobile because I know some people who spend tens of thousands of dollars a year keeping theirs on the road. Who knows, and I don't care. I'm not paying that just to drive around caching a handful of times every month.

Edited December 23, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+TotemLake]

The link that was provided was to point at a comment Caleb made about what DeLorme has done to begin moving into the international market. DeLorme has rebuilt their world base map from the ground up to be able to address these very concerns.

The world basemap in SA 2010 is very good. It's available today. In SA. Shucks, the SA roadmaps would be acceptable for caching, even in Canada, although perhaps not in countries where there is only the basemap. But...

 

The roadmaps from SA are not available on the PN-XX models.

 

I think you'll agree that SA, even on a netbook, isn't quite the right tool for geocaching.

 

...ken...

To press your point, I use MS Streets and Trips for my personal system and MapPoint for my busines system.

 

There is something to be said for the right tool for the job at hand.

[+TotemLake]

The tiny screen on the Delorme is objectionable to so many and has been mentioned in this post.

As consumer consious as Delorme seems to be are there plans to modify or re-design the PN-40 so it will have a bigger screen ?

If not for the small screen and hardware-software glitches I have read about I don't know why everyone wouldn't use the unit for geocaching considering free maps right out of the box......I know I would have got one by now.

DeLorme doesn't release details for future products anymore after getting their fingers burned with how long it took to develop Cache Register. Some cachers have been noted to be rabid with their sometimes lack of patience and high pitched whines.

 

As for the glitches, mostly handled now with firmware updates and was affecting an apparently small batch of units which indicates a QC issue on one of the assembly lines.

 

The small screen is very readable and has never been an issue with me in real time usage. Perceptions will vary, but even when folks I've been around mentioned it, I let them play with the unit and they tend to agree it isn't as big an issue as previously believed.

Edited December 23, 2009 by TotemLake

[+geognerd]

Why is so much made of the DeLorme's screen size? Am I geocaching wrong? Because when I cache, my eyes aren't glued to the screen as I walk down the trail or through the woods. I'll take a quick look at the compass page to see how far I am from the cache and if I'm going the right direction. I'll look at the unit for maybe 5 seconds tops. Then I'll go back to admiring the scenery and looking for potential hiding spots for the cache. The compass and the distance readout are plenty big on my PN-30. As for the cache description text, don't be trying to read it while doing something else. Stop walking. Hold up the GPSr, bring it closer to (or farther away from) your eyes, adjust the angle, and read. This is a GPSr folks, not a TV.

 

Would it be nice if the screen was a little bigger? Yes. Is the DeLorme's screen size deficient for caching? No.

Edited December 23, 2009 by geognerd

[+TotemLake]

Why is so much made of the DeLorme's screen size? Am I geocaching wrong? Because when I cache, my eyes aren't glued to the screen as I walk down the trail or through the woods. I'll take a quick look at the compass page to see how far I am from the cache and if I'm going the right direction. I'll look at the unit for maybe 5 seconds tops. Then I'll go back to admiring the scenery and looking for potential hiding spots for the cache. The compass and the distance readout are plenty big on my PN-30. As for the cache description text, don't be trying to read it while doing something else. Stop walking. Hold up the GPSr, bring it closer to (or farther away from) your eyes, adjust the angle, and read. This is a GPSr folks, not a TV.

 

Would it be nice if the screen was a little bigger? Yes. Is the DeLorme's screen size deficient for caching? No.

There are two fields of concern. Readability and Area of View. If you're driving, this is an issue, but like texting on a cell phone, it shouldn't be done by the driver.

 

As for walking/hiking... I've never experienced an issue with it.

 

Then there are some folks (not saying it's happening here) that parrot what they hear without ever setting hands on the unit and seeing it for themselves.

[+gpsblake]

Within two years - four at the outside - I expect the DeLorme will dominate the Geocaching market segment the way Garmin does now.

 

No way, no how. Garmin outsells Delorme 10 or 20 to 1 on handhelds. And handhelds aren't even 5 percent of the GPS market anymore, it's car GPS units that make up the majority now. Then throw in all the cellphone units that can act as maps and GPS units today. Delorme's map sales are also way down due to everyone being able to get them on the web or their cellphone for free these days.

 

7 years ago, handhelds were 95 percent of the GPS market. Like I just said above, handhelds are 5 percent of the GPS market at best. Magellan which was every bit the equal to Garmin 7 years ago, has all but gone out of business. And remember COBRA handheld GPS units??

 

Delorme will be a niche market at best and out of business in a few years at the worst.

[+user13371]

GPSBlake, you seem to have missed an important qualifier on my original post: Although this thread is wandering into a lot of areas, my original post was speaking ONLY about geocaching -- a tiny segment of the GPS usage, as we've both noted. Car units and smartphones are good for a lot of things but are not ideal for geocaching.

 

DeLorme has an accurate, field-rugged, weatherproof device that can display both maps and aerial imagery and access these without an "always on" data connection, and they tailor their software in ways that are especially useful to Geocachers.

 

And for now, so does Garmin -- on much larger scale than DeLorme.

 

So why do I think this will change in DeLorme's favor? Given all the movement to those other sorts of personal navigators you already mentioned, I'm really expecting G to see those other devices as more profitable and start neglecting geocaching -- and D moving in to fill this niche.

 

And of course, I could be wrong. I mean, Garmin even makes GPS-enabled DOG COLLARS -- so maybe they don't think any niche is too small to ignore. But I see DeLorme putting more effort into geocaching market lately than any other GPS maker.

[+gpsblake]

Within two years - four at the outside - I expect the DeLorme will dominate the Geocaching market segment the way Garmin does now.

 

I was addressing that statement you made. There is zero chance delorme will dominate the geocaching field at all. Delorme is outsold by Garmin 20 to 1 on handhelds. Most handhelds are sold as geocaching unit these days, not for hiking or bicycling etc. However, Delorme's profit has always been the selling of maps and mapping software. Both of which are also a huge decline.

 

If anything, the handheld geocaching market will decline due to other technologies that are going to surpass it. Like cellphones or hybrid car units that will be able to geocache.

 

The prob with Delorme is they entered a matured field of handheld GPS units way too late.

[+user13371]

Most handhelds are sold as geocaching unit these days, not for hiking or bicycling etc

I did not know this. Please provide four numbers, with verifiable sources:

 

1) How many handheld GPS units were sold so far this year for all major brands?

2) How many of those were bought with geocaching as the main intended use?

3)... and for hiking?

4) .. and for bicycling?

 

And optionally, provide some number (with a source) of how many were sold for "etc"

 

Delorme is outsold by Garmin 20 to 1 on handhelds.

I don't really have a problem believing this factoid, but I'm not willing attach such firm ratios to a gut feeling. "G" > "D" today? Sure thing - the review listings on GC.com show a huge difference and you might even be understating the ratio. But you're quoting a number, where are getting unit sales figures for both companies on total handheld sales? Edited December 24, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+user13371]

For numbers on GPS devices used by geocachers, go here: http://www.geocaching.com/reviews/gps .

 

These numbers are an incomplete sampling -- being ONLY geocachers who choose to provided the information - not sales figures overall. But I think the ratios are probably pretty close for the geocaching world at large. If you have different sources & data, please share them here.

Edited December 24, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+TotemLake]

Within two years - four at the outside - I expect the DeLorme will dominate the Geocaching market segment the way Garmin does now.

 

I was addressing that statement you made. There is zero chance delorme will dominate the geocaching field at all. Delorme is outsold by Garmin 20 to 1 on handhelds. Most handhelds are sold as geocaching unit these days, not for hiking or bicycling etc. However, Delorme's profit has always been the selling of maps and mapping software. Both of which are also a huge decline.

 

If anything, the handheld geocaching market will decline due to other technologies that are going to surpass it. Like cellphones or hybrid car units that will be able to geocache.

 

The prob with Delorme is they entered a matured field of handheld GPS units way too late.

Your first mistake is to assume it's too late to enter any market. Your second mistake was to put it in writing.

 

The handheld will likely become a smaller market due to the rise of the GPS enabled smartphone, but it will never go away. They were originally built with a specific purpose, which was to navigate in areas cell phone coverage will not be able reach nor would you want to risk the phone in those environments.

 

Magellan failed because of very poor quality control when the Triton series came out and customer service unwilling to help out their customers. That's improving, but it's a tarnished reputation now after having a stellar reputation prior to this and the Explorist series.

 

Don't kid yourself thinking it is too late for DeLorme. You couldn't be farther from the truth. The PN-20 was lackluster in performance and they learned from this unit. They made a big splash on their entry with the PN-40 and it took Garmin by suprise by it's sudden acceptance and they took notice. It took Garmin about 9 months to come out with a tool to allow the import of raster imagery onto the GPS units. Firmware updates from Garmin for the Colorado and Oregon were not forthcoming until DeLorme announced they were working on a fix for their PN's on firmware then on 2.4 barely beating out DeLorme's firmware update by a mere month and it introduced new bugs into the Oregon.

 

DeLorme has been paying attention to their customers and improving the PN over a short period of time including a Topo update which uses the Geocaching symbols, firmware updates to allow cache retrieval directly from your PQ as well as the GPS Plug-in for downloading specific cache information while on the page. GPX files to be imported in and out of the GPS via their Topo software was the next major update with the next one to allow simple drag and drop of the GPX files onto the GPS when in transfer mode on the PC. All of this is causing folks ready to upgrade to pay attention. The DeLorme GPS has become a serious contender when considering a paperless GPS for geocaching.

 

And this is Lee's point. DeLorme has looked at the history of each GPS manufacturer and they have learned the lessons from their missteps including a few of their own. Just because Garmin currently has the lion's share doesn't necessarily mean this will stay that way forever. A simple look at how the Big 3 in Denver Detroit has lost ground from other manufacturers proves this axiom and there are many many examples like this through history.

Edited December 24, 2009 by TotemLake

[+user13371]

Big 3 in Denver? What industry is that?

[+TotemLake]

Big 3 in Denver? What industry is that?

The US auto industry.

[+user13371]

Speaking as a native Detroiter, I can only say "huh?"

 

Which of the Big 3 automakers were from Denver?

[+user13371]

.

Edited December 24, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+TotemLake]

Speaking as a native Detroiter, I can only say "huh?"

 

Which of the Big 3 automakers were from Denver?

Yer right. I was doing this at work. Fixed.

Edited December 24, 2009 by TotemLake