+mizdeeds Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) I'm trying to solve a puzzle cache and at this point beating my head against a brick wall. I'm just looking for helpful suggestions on what to try next. I'm not asking for a solution to the puzzle, I just can't think of anything else to try/look at. The listing is a somewhat nonsensical story, 7 paragraphs long. I've looked at the page source, there are no hidden coordinates or hints or suggestions on how to solve. The hint is "None, yet. Let's see how it goes." I've tried counting the letters in the paragraphs; counting only the capitalized letters, counting the punctuation marks, the number of words in each paragraph, the number of sentences in each paragraph. None of those come up with numbers remotely close to the coordinates, which should start with N 42 and W 084. There are only 2 actual numbers in the story, and I've also tried reading the characters to see if any of the words combined somehow make up numbers. Nope. There are 3 phrases in a different color totaling 8 words or 45 characters. The title of the cache is in all caps at the end of the story. I've googled the title, and it's a song. I looked up the lyrics, they don't have numbers and again, all the words and characters don't add up to anything either. There doesn't appear to be a cipher/code by that name. I repeat, I'm not asking for a solution.... just any suggestions on what to try next. I figure there must be other caches hidden out there that are similar that someone who reads the forum has solved. Or, I hope so anyway. The cache hasn't been found yet, so emailing the owner isn't an option either. Thanks in advance! Edited to add: I am not that close to the cache, over 50 miles away, so I also wonder if local knowledge might be the key. Edited December 14, 2009 by mizdeeds Quote Link to comment
+Chrysalides Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) Check for clues in the title, the hider published name, the bogus coordinates, even the attributes. It might give some context to the puzzle. When all else fails, contact the cache owner for help. If cache owner is not responsive, try one of the previous solvers. Edit : also check "related web page" if link is available (under "size" near top of page) Edited December 14, 2009 by Chrysalides Quote Link to comment
+mizdeeds Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 There are no previous solvers. Nobody has found/solved it yet. The geochecker has 2 incorrect guesses and zero correct. No related web page either. The title could be a clue, but I think I'd have to live locally for it to make any sense to me, so I may have to give up. Durnit. Thanks for the suggestions! Quote Link to comment
+bittsen Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 There are no previous solvers. Nobody has found/solved it yet. The geochecker has 2 incorrect guesses and zero correct. No related web page either. The title could be a clue, but I think I'd have to live locally for it to make any sense to me, so I may have to give up. Durnit. Thanks for the suggestions! Part of why I don't do puzzle caches is that I don't like trying to figure out what the puzzle type is. I can solve puzzles but I don't like enigma type puzzles. Perhaps if you showed us the GC code we could better point you in the right direction. Quote Link to comment
+Cache O'Plenty Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) You quoted one possible item.... (I'm guessing). "There are 3 phrases in a different color totaling 8 words or 45 characters." the 8 words/45 characters - there's the "84" in there. Maybe it has something to do with the answer. Are you sure all the other text is not colored in any way, even slightly different? Post the GC code and we'll see if we see anything. P.S. This is type of puzzle that I have the most trouble with too. I'm with "bittsen" in this regard. Edited December 15, 2009 by Cache O'Plenty Quote Link to comment
+mizdeeds Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Okay, it's GC20VMG, On the Borderline. Could be "on the borderline" is the clue. A geographical border of some sort. I agree on the enigma puzzles, I can usually solve puzzles too, but this one ... grrrrr... No, none of the other text has any color specified. But I like your thinking on the "84".. Quote Link to comment
+niraD Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Posting hints about specific puzzle caches in a public forum is generally considered inappropriate. Furthermore, this cache hasn't even been found yet. But here's some generic advice... A while back, The Rat offered a puzzle-solving class as an event cache. His slides are available here: http://thegba.net/resources/general_information.php Among the tips he offered: Identify the theme. Check the cache title, the hint, the HTML source, the graphics (including names/URLs), any links (including URLs), whatever is at the posted coordinates, etc. If you can figure out the theme, then you should look for numbering systems that are associated with that theme (zip codes, area codes, telephone keypads, episode numbers, etc.). Around here, coordinates will have 15 digits, and will look like "N 37° xx.xxx W 122° xx.xxx". So when I'm solving a nearby puzzle, I look for a group of 15 things, and then I look for ways to get the digits 37xxxxx122xxxxx from them. In general, I look for ways to get the number 37 (or the digits 3 and 7) from something near the beginning of the puzzle, and the number 122 (or the digits 1, 2, and 2) from something near the middle of the puzzle. (Of course, you'll need to adjust this for the coordinates near you.) Another useful resource is the Puzzle Solving 101 Series http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.a...ef-901807ba9c98 Quote Link to comment
+fizzymagic Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Thanks for posting the GC number. I went and solved it. Took me about 10 minutes. The 3-star difficulty would be appropriate for the Bay Area, but probably not for your area. Experience solving puzzles like this gave me a big advantage. Unfortunately, there are a bunch of red herrings in the puzzle description so it may take a while to find the right solution. Actually, solving puzzles like this is very similar to figuring out magic tricks that I see (I'm a magician, so I know what to look for there, too). Is there anything the magician does, no matter how seemingly inconsequential, that is a little odd or that wasn't necessary? Whenever a magician goes out of his way to prove that the deck of cards is normal, you can be pretty sure it's not. Similarly, when a magician tells you how something is done, you can be quite certain that it is not how the trick actually works. The principle that the puzzle creator here is exploiting is this: once you start down an incorrect path to a solution, it is very hard to back out and find the correct one. That's about all I can say without giving you hints, which I won't do because that is the place of the cache owner. Quote Link to comment
Earthdog Patrick Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) If cache owner is not responsive, try one of the previous solvers. phone a friend????nah! May as well phone a phorum!!! Edited December 15, 2009 by Earthdog Patrick Quote Link to comment
+mizdeeds Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Posting hints about specific puzzle caches in a public forum is generally considered inappropriate. Furthermore, this cache hasn't even been found yet. (snip) I know, and that's why I didn't have it in my original post. Now that it's been solved by someone far away, I know it can be done! Thank you everyone for all the tips. Will let you know if/when I figure it out! Quote Link to comment
+Anno Lynke Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I say ask a cow Quote Link to comment
7rxc Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Thanks for posting the GC number. I went and solved it. Took me about 10 minutes. The 3-star difficulty would be appropriate for the Bay Area, but probably not for your area. Experience solving puzzles like this gave me a big advantage. Unfortunately, there are a bunch of red herrings in the puzzle description so it may take a while to find the right solution. The principle that the puzzle creator here is exploiting is this: once you start down an incorrect path to a solution, it is very hard to back out and find the correct one. Got that done in about the same time frame... Also sworn to secrecy... shhh! Nice Puzzle that one... Your bit about being able to back off is valid in many situations. Sometimes you are simply too close to the situation to see the problem... I either see the path or completely miss the Forest itself. Just never know which it will be on any given occasion. To mizdeeds... good luck! Doug Quote Link to comment
+sir-cachealot Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I went and solved it. Took me about 10 minutes. The 3-star difficulty would be appropriate for the Bay Area, but probably not for your area. Hmmm... So fizzymagic, are you saying we Michiganders are just a bunch of puzzle illiterates? Congrats on the FTS, btw. Quote Link to comment
+fizzymagic Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I went and solved it. Took me about 10 minutes. The 3-star difficulty would be appropriate for the Bay Area, but probably not for your area. Hmmm... So fizzymagic, are you saying we Michiganders are just a bunch of puzzle illiterates? Heh. No, I was saying that the Bay Area has a disproportionate number of computer nerds. Like me, for instance. There are some nice puzzles up there. I looked at some others nearby and got hooked on the one with attribute icons. I think I know the principle, but I haven't quite got it yet. Quote Link to comment
+geodarts Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 No, I was saying that the Bay Area has a disproportionate number of computer nerds. Like me, for instance. I knew there was a reason why so many puzzles were ending up on my ignore list -- usually I just see the logs that talk about solving the puzzle by spending ten minutes to write a bit of c code, roll my eyes, and go on with my life. Quote Link to comment
Dj Storm Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 There are two classes of puzzle caches: - where you have to find the puzzle, then solving it is trivial (steganography); - where you know the puzzle and rules, and the difficulty consist in solving it. In this case, finding the puzzle is the difficult part; There are clues spread through the description, telling you where to search for the puzzle. It's true that once you start on an incorrect path, it's difficult to find the correct one. My strong points are in applying logic/arithmetic to solve difficult puzzles; locating hidden puzzles are a weak point of mine - after spending 10-15 minutes I become bored, mostly because I feel I'm still at square one. However, I found the puzzle quickly, in about 2 minutes. Solving it took me a day (or should I say, 15 minutes looking at the wrong puzzle-in-the-puzzle, a day ignoring it, then 5 minutes solving the right puzzle). Thanks sir-cachealot, that is a good one, and also allows for quite some variations! Quote Link to comment
Mushtang Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I took a look at the cache page and didn't see what I expected. I didn't have enough time to look at it before leaving for work but I definitely want to come back and look some more. It reminds me of my Hidden Coordinates caches. Maybe when (if) I solve it I'll be able to use some of the idea for one in the series. In my caches, the coordinates are in plain sight but they're hard to find with all the rest of the stuff on the page. Hidden Coordinates It must be harder than I thought because after a few people found it right after it was published early this year the finds have stopped. Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 There are two classes of puzzle caches: - where you have to find the puzzle, then solving it is trivial (steganography); - where you know the puzzle and rules, and the difficulty consist in solving it. There is also the type - where it is clearly obvious where the puzzle is, as it's staring you in the face, but you're just not seeing how to approach it so that it can reveal a set of coordinates. These are typically the ones that give me the most difficulty. I've solved somewhere around 120 puzzles and have seen lots of different ways one can hide a puzzle so that type doesn't often give me much trouble as there are only so many places one can hide a puzzle using a published page. There are also multi stage puzzles which can be a combination of all of the above. Quote Link to comment
+Chrysalides Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I knew there was a reason why so many puzzles were ending up on my ignore list -- usually I just see the logs that talk about solving the puzzle by spending ten minutes to write a bit of c code, roll my eyes, and go on with my life. I've done my share of coding to solve a puzzle, but sometimes it is not necessary, just easier for some of us. If you have a hammer, all the problems look like nails and all that, you know Quote Link to comment
+rob3k Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) Have you contacted the cache owner? I usually do that after I've beat my head on the wall for a bit with a puzzle. Then I mull over whatever help they offer for another week or two. Haven't gone back for a 2nd hint (that I can recall) yet, but I probably would if I needed it. EDIT: Check that - just did! Most puzzle owners are pretty helpful. I usually type up a nice message with all the stuff I've tried and why I think it must not be this or why I think some other bit is key to solving things. If you give the CO an idea of how close you are to the solve he or she can tailor the hint. However, don't be surprised if a puzzle owner prefers to hold off on giving any hints until there is a first find. Edited December 18, 2009 by rob3k Quote Link to comment
+Paddling Pirates Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 The Pirates have up-ticked the Geocheck.org green box and also made the FTF! Lots of ways to go on this puzzle! Michiganders can solve the puzzle! Quote Link to comment
+fizzymagic Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 There are two classes of puzzle caches: - where you have to find the puzzle, then solving it is trivial (steganography); - where you know the puzzle and rules, and the difficulty consist in solving it. There is also the type - where it is clearly obvious where the puzzle is, as it's staring you in the face, but you're just not seeing how to approach it so that it can reveal a set of coordinates. The kind where there are approximately a billion different ways to make coordinates we call "mental ivy," as they are the puzzle equivalent of an ivy hide. Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 There are two classes of puzzle caches: - where you have to find the puzzle, then solving it is trivial (steganography); - where you know the puzzle and rules, and the difficulty consist in solving it. There is also the type - where it is clearly obvious where the puzzle is, as it's staring you in the face, but you're just not seeing how to approach it so that it can reveal a set of coordinates. The kind where there are approximately a billion different ways to make coordinates we call "mental ivy," as they are the puzzle equivalent of an ivy hide. I work at an Ivy league university but I can't think of a single ivy hide on campus (though I have found an ivy cache a bit further away). Here's an example of a puzzle in which the puzzle is clearly obvious but it took me awhile to figure out how it worked. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...1c-116c0a7aeaec Quote Link to comment
+mizdeeds Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 I took a look at the cache page and didn't see what I expected. I didn't have enough time to look at it before leaving for work but I definitely want to come back and look some more. It reminds me of my Hidden Coordinates caches. Maybe when (if) I solve it I'll be able to use some of the idea for one in the series. In my caches, the coordinates are in plain sight but they're hard to find with all the rest of the stuff on the page. Hidden Coordinates It must be harder than I thought because after a few people found it right after it was published early this year the finds have stopped. Now THAT one I found the solution right away! I wish I could say the same for the one I originally posted here about. I'm still beating my head against the wall there. Now that it's been found, I can email the cache owner for a hint, but not sure I'm ready for that yet. I set it aside and look at it again every other day or so. I'm usually pretty good with puzzles, so I'm just stubborn enough to want to figure it out without a big hint. Lots of great tips posted here... I feel I'm getting close but it's still evading me. GRRR I will do it. Yes. I will. Quote Link to comment
7rxc Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I work at an Ivy league university but I can't think of a single ivy hide on campus (though I have found an ivy cache a bit further away). Here's an example of a puzzle in which the puzzle is clearly obvious but it took me awhile to figure out how it worked. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...1c-116c0a7aeaec Thanks for that reference... got it after a bit... solved that is and confirmed... good fun there. It took me a while to get Mad enough at it... Now that I'm mad, I'm going back to being ----ed at Mushtangs offering... That serves me right for trying it the day after the Christmas Party... So far I think I've found all the decoys or most of them... now for the ducks. To mizdeeds... glad to hear you found that one relatively easy... karma I guess (sigh)... that's what I thought about your nemesis in Michigan. Good luck! Doug Quote Link to comment
+mizdeeds Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 snip To mizdeeds... glad to hear you found that one relatively easy... karma I guess (sigh)... that's what I thought about your nemesis in Michigan. Good luck! Doug Thank you, but I have discovered I did NOT solve that one either! Talk about red herrings! Sheesh! Now I have ANOTHER puzzle to drive me crazy until I solve it.... sigh... Gotta love 'em! Quote Link to comment
Mushtang Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 snip To mizdeeds... glad to hear you found that one relatively easy... karma I guess (sigh)... that's what I thought about your nemesis in Michigan. Good luck! Doug Thank you, but I have discovered I did NOT solve that one either! Talk about red herrings! Sheesh! Now I have ANOTHER puzzle to drive me crazy until I solve it.... sigh... Gotta love 'em! Yeah, you found one of the things on the page that was put there to make you think you'd found the solution, until you realized you'd only found the posted coordinates. I like this one because the solution doesn't require a puzzle be solved. The coordinates are intact, they're just hidden. Someone across the country saw it, liked it, and decided to hide their own version using the same concept. There's even a sequel to the cache. Quote Link to comment
+mizdeeds Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Yeah, you found one of the things on the page that was put there to make you think you'd found the solution, until you realized you'd only found the posted coordinates. I like this one because the solution doesn't require a puzzle be solved. The coordinates are intact, they're just hidden. Someone across the country saw it, liked it, and decided to hide their own version using the same concept. There's even a sequel to the cache. Okay, so I solved the sequel... I think! Sending PM to check. Now why can't I get the other one? I have shopping to do... can't be sitting here staring at puzzles!!! Quote Link to comment
+9Key Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 snip To mizdeeds... glad to hear you found that one relatively easy... karma I guess (sigh)... that's what I thought about your nemesis in Michigan. Good luck! Doug Thank you, but I have discovered I did NOT solve that one either! Talk about red herrings! Sheesh! Now I have ANOTHER puzzle to drive me crazy until I solve it.... sigh... Gotta love 'em! Yeah, you found one of the things on the page that was put there to make you think you'd found the solution, until you realized you'd only found the posted coordinates. I like this one because the solution doesn't require a puzzle be solved. The coordinates are intact, they're just hidden. Someone across the country saw it, liked it, and decided to hide their own version using the same concept. There's even a sequel to the cache. Nice spoiler on the cache location by LocoXII. Quote Link to comment
Mushtang Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Nice spoiler on the cache location by LocoXII. It's not as much of a spoiler as it might seem. The area he (she?) is describing is on the way to GZ, not exactly AT the cache. I don't think it gives anything away at all, so I left it. Quote Link to comment
7rxc Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Yeah, you found one of the things on the page that was put there to make you think you'd found the solution, until you realized you'd only found the posted coordinates. I like this one because the solution doesn't require a puzzle be solved. The coordinates are intact, they're just hidden. Someone across the country saw it, liked it, and decided to hide their own version using the same concept. There's even a sequel to the cache. Hi there... Personally, I like the sequel better (HC 2) Got that one without logging out of here... but no verifier... so no record... no finger prints either... I think there is just some elimination work on the first HC... I'm sure I've got past the obvious stuff... now for the sneaky bits... Darn these holiday parties are tough on the thought processes. Keep up the good puzzling. Now 3 out of 4 here... Doug Quote Link to comment
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