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Tricky Vicky & Mickey

THANK YOU!

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We would like to say a special thank you to all those geocachers who were so very kind to present us with a 2000 Geo-Achievement Geocoin.

 

It came as a wonderful surprise and we are thrilled to bits and will cherish it always. :D

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We started with an idea to reward a cacher with a 2000 finds coin when he/she reached the 2000 finds milestone. We selected some cachers with the hat in the hand as a test. The response and the feedback were positive. The idea then started to materialize. With the voluntary donations we were in a position to do the awards. I actually had to block a couple of cachers as they wanted to donate the full amount of the coin. The idea however is that it must be given via the caching community and not one single person.

 

The following awards were done in the past for their efforts and achievement based on the 2000 finds count.

1. iPajero (Received it at final Tonteldoos)

2. Crystalfairy (Received it at the Kia Ora Event)

3. TVM (received it at Fine Wine event)

 

Our original idea was to keep this award coin low profile and to do it in the background. The format of the handover was never planned. We left that for the donators to arrange. But this has evolved a little bit and some of my fellow cachers requested me several times to bring this to this forum for discussion. I agreed to do so pass the third handover.

 

A complex system is not needed so the following simple rules were adapted and agreed via the cachers that donated the monies needed.

1. To qualify for this 2000 finds coin one have to find 2000 South African caches. Some of the cachers had the argument that a cacher could find 1999 finds in the UK and 1 in RSA and then he will get the award. The question now is if this is fair. You can get to 2000 finds in the UK quicker than in RSA. So we had to adapt to this rule and it will be in place from today to make it fair and just from this point forward.

2. The second rule that was agreed upon is that the person donating the money for this coin will receive the tracking number of the coin. In matter of fact he will receive two tracking numbers for one unit of donation.

3. The last rule is that a cacher will donate a unit which is equal to R30. Or else we will get the situation where one cacher will donate R400, the next one R600 and the next one will donate R10. This will become a nightmare to manage. Now it is a fixed amount and it is once off. We do not want to build reserve funds but we want to break even on the financial balance sheet without creating any credit amount. If a cacher wants to donate more than one unit then he will donate two units which cost R60 and he will received the next 4 tracking numbers of the awards given to the 2000 finds cachers. Working in units is easy to manage. About 8 units are needed to cover the cost of one coin and it is easy to achieve and to manage this.

 

I think the rules are clear and if not then I will try to explain it again if needed. Three rules is easy to manage and the more the rules the more the interpretation of the rules and the more complex it becomes. Then we all change into lawyers and I would like to be a geocacher. However the following questions started to arrive and it was highlighted by the cachers and we need to discuss this as a community. So here they are as promised.

 

Issues raised for discussion by fellow cachers:

1. Issue 1: (Award handover). Some cachers felt very strongly that we should award this coin at a special award event in the province where the cacher resides. The question and the discussion should be “Should we carry on giving it in the background and informal or must this now be formalised as a handover at an official event?” iPajero received his privately, maybe he can comment. TVM & CF received it during an event and their feedback will be good. Maybe they would like to see it different.

2. Issue 2: (Milestone cut off and finance). The second question that has arrived is the question of “Should we award this on other cache find milestones as well”. For example at 1000 finds. We will need answers to this as well.

3. Issue 3: (Cacher not donating). Eish, this is a tough one. If some cachers refused to do any donations are they eligible for the award? Should we award them the coin or not.

 

I hope we can get a fruitful debate. Nothing is wrong and nothing is right, speak you mind and let us draw some conclusions and agreements on this one. At the end the focus is on the cacher receiving this award and we should do the best we can do to make it special for them. Your input will be appreciated. The majority will set the rules. Try to keep the issues apart while discussing it so that is can be followed. I will post a reply as an example and please keep to the example given. In this fashion we will keep control of the issues and it will be easier to follow. I hope I made myself clear. It is easy to manage issues if they are named and broken down in manageable chunks. OK, the floor is all yours.

 

Gerhard

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This is an example of the format of reply. Try to name the issue so everybody can follow the various comments to the issues in hand. If you have another issue that does not fit in one of the three issue classes then you need to call a consecutive number such as Issue 4: xxx xxxx xx. If you have general comments please include it at the top.

 

Issue 1: (Award handover)

I think it depends on the individual person receiving the award. For example if such a reward is given to me I would not like to see an event with my name on it and to be the focus of that event. I am a private person and more introvert than extrovert. I do not like to be the centre of the event. I would like to received it at an event but more informal and on the side. To me it is the idea behind the award and the fact that it came from the community which makes it special. I think if a person is eligible for such an award then that nominee should have the say.

 

Issue 2: (Milestone cut off and finance)

I am divided with this issue. 2000 finds was selected as the award milestone as this was also the year geocaching actually kicked off. This award must be special and it must be a real challenge. This must be like a gold medallion at the Olympics. Some of my fellow cachers stated that if there is an official milestone coin for example at 1000 and 500 finds then it will be good for geocaching as a whole and it could stimulate growth. I personally feel that if this milestone awards are lowered from the 2000 finds criteria then we could loose the focus of the objective of geocaching. It could turn into a number game and an official award for that number game. Instead the focus is to enjoy the caches and to see something new or to do something new in your life. At 2000 finds we should shake the hand of that cacher. Milestones will then just become milestones with anything lower than 2000 finds. At 2000 finds it is special and here I think the line must be drawn. There are people that reached 100 finds in less than a month. During the next months this cacher disappears again. A person at 2000 finds is a person that will carry on unless something happened to his health or personal affairs. On the other side of the coin we have cache stashes. I am too scared to award on cache stashes. How do you award and compare a cacher with 50 lamp pole stashes against another cacher with 50 high quality and unique caches? I also have this feeling that if hides become an award then the quality of caches could suffer. I would rather settle for a yearly award such as the top 5 hides for the year. Here everybody can have a chance and the whole community can interact to find the top 5. As a small community it is also not possible to financially sustain any awards lower than the 2000 finds line.

 

Issue 3: (Cacher not donating)

I personally would like to stick to the rule. The rule is 2000 RSA finds and he/she will get it even if he/she refused to donate any monies. I am not going to justify it – if a donator feel that a certain person is not worthy of getting such a coin then we will look for other donators that will contribute to his award. We should be able to get pass this obstacle. I would not like to select certain people for this award. I think this is unfair and it will cause a split and anger in the geocaching community. More harm than good will be done. So I personally would like to stick to the rule but the donator could exercise his right not to donate to that specific cacher. Both parties should then be happy.

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Issue 1: (Award handover)

Issue 2: (Milestone cut off and finance)

Issue 3: (Cacher not donating)

 

I'm a bit intimidated by the discussion numbering system - sounds as if there are some corporate animals at work! i'll just go for the shotgun approach.

 

1. I like the idea of the R30 per unit donation system. But now there needs to be a way of notifying the community that a coin needs to be purchased and some donations are required/there has been enough donations. Perhaps the private email system that was used for these 1st 3 awards works well enough. There seems to be an effective network going in the various provinces.

 

2. Keep it just for the 2000 - it might get a bit busy otherwise.

 

3. I liked the handover format the CnC organised. It was a great get together and the handover was just a part of the event. It makes it more of a community thing if there is a get together of cachers. It does not have to be specially organised - one can just do it at the next event cache if there is one close by (and you can get the awardees to attend).

 

4. Keep the donations entirely voluntary and do not penalise anyone for not donating. It goes against the spirit of the game.

 

5. I am ambivalent about whether one should cound SA finds only. What about that one has to have the majority of caches found in SA (but not all). At this stage 2000 is still quite rare for a SA cacher. The number that is available for all to see is the geocaching finds count.

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Issue 1: (Award handover)

I agree do it at the next event where the cacher will be, be it in the province or not.

 

Issue 2: (Milestone cut off and finance)

It sounds good to me as well, at 2000 finds. It is something one really needs to work for to achieve.

I have a bit of an issue (if I can call it that) with the R30.00. We will run out of cachers if everyone only gives a once off R30.00. I think it should work out that over a period of time, the cacher who received his (or her) coin, pays for the next person to receive their coin. I would be more then willing to assist and makea few donations of the next few coming years. So the coin I will receive in 2019 is paid for.

 

Please explain a little more about the person making the donation receiving the tracking number? Is this so they can discover the coin?

 

Issue 3: (Cacher not donating)

I think if you get to 2000 finds, you are committed to the game, And I am sure that those cachers will contribute to the next coin.

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Sorry Pooks, it was not meant to be a problem. It my right brain that is causing the hassles. At present I am mobile and I move around a lot. If I get a chance I will log on but then I need to scan quickly. It is easier for me to keep tabs. I am also planning to go to Botswana for work related issues and the cost of Internet is extremely high that side and I will work long hours, so it is hit and run all the time. I will probably not even be logging caches during the next three weeks.

 

By the way – some cachers stated that we must discuss this in this forum and now they are the ones that are not responding. You had your opinions when you e-mailed me and now you are gone. Are you there?

 

Issue 1: (Award handover)

Cachers want this as part of the event and it was tested with TVM and CF and they are happy. So it looks as if this is the way forward. The handover to iPajero was a slight disaster. We had it planned during an event at Gauteng. But due to circumstances (postal strike) the coin was not available. The second best was at number 2500 at the final tonteldoos cache. This was a huge problem. In this case the Gauteng cachers agreed to do the donation. This team was not known to most of the Gautengers but they had the chance to meet with them at the event. They liked them so much that I had to stop some of the donations. If this must form part of the event then I will have to request permission from the event owner and only with his permission this hand over will proceed.

 

Issue 4: Who? (new one)

One issue is still in question. We have a lot of expats that is still involved with the RSA cachers. We made the rule as 2000 RSA cache finds. It appears as if this is in question. How are we going to manage this? Let us say that cacher X is from the UK, he visit his uncle in Ermelo and find one of my caches and he is now on 2000 finds - what now? Shall he/she be awarded and how? What if he returns and he informs all his mates and family and 500 of them arrive to complete their 2000 finds? Must we now award all 500 of them. We will be ruined. Or must I contact his community and present them the opportunity to award him for the number and for them to hold the event at his community? We need some guidance here. Here I also need the input from the community to discover cachers like this as this will be very difficult to control. Someone will how to shout and say “I noticed another person at the 2000 cache find milestone”.

 

Issue 2: (Milestone cut off and finance)

Anton, we done a forecast on the growth of cachers and the rate at which cachers will reach the 2000 finds. We also calculated the number of cachers that is not responding to the voluntary donation requests. The actual no response percentage is lower than expected. Based on this forecast 8 cachers are needed to cover the cost of the coin. We do not want to bankrupt the cachers but at the same time we want to give a high quality coin. The other focus is that if a cacher has received the award coin he must not be placed in a position where he actually pays for the coin with his donation. To pay for your own award is defeating the objective. There are cachers that want to donate on a fixed monthly basis. We need to say thanks to these cachers. At present I can not allow it as we will run into a credit on the account. I would rather run on a slight debit or loss. For this we will not cut our pulses and it will not ruin the relationship with the bank manager. Feel free to forecast it on your own and to play with the numbers. You are the stats man and your help will be appreciated. For obvious reasons I do not want to publish the rate of no response but I will e-mail it to you if needed. Keep your forecast figures away from the forum and we can discuss it privately. At present we forecast cachefan and cownchicken as the next that will reach this wall and I am keeping an eye on their caching rate to determine the probable due date.

 

The tracking number should be explained. I use this as a crude financial tool. If a cacher donates monies then he/she will appear on the Income statement and his name is then coupled to the tracking number. With other words I use this as a delivery note that the monies were received and that it is allocated properly on the account. On the other hand I am not the owner of the coin. This coin actually belongs to the donators but it is given to the 2000 finds cacher unactivated. During the handover the coin becomes the property of the person receiving the award and he can do with it as he pleases. I think it is fair that the person donating the money should be entitled to the tracking number. I also discovered another important issue while dealing with the awards. Most of the people donating the monies have great respect for the cachers with the 2000 finds and they do like to keep track of them. They use the tracking number to see what these cachers are up to. The financial statements are available to any cacher that has donated monies. I am busy working on a web page that will have this information behind a password. Only donators and the persons that have received the awards will have access to the password and also what is happening behind the scenes such as the next plan. Anton, maybe this is where you can help as well. I am a strong believer in financial ethics. There are always two people that deal with an account and there are always two documents. The person placing the order is not the person receiving and accepting it. You can add value here. Maybe you should deal with the control and financial statements.

 

On the other hand we are in the middle. We had to start with the awards somehow and in the process we had to make rules to get the idea going. I am standing with CF, TVM and iPajero on my left hand side that have done extremely well and on my other side I have the geocaching community that wants to recognize their efforts and they want to shake their hands and they want to recognize their efforts. I do not know if it is acceptable for the owners if the tracking numbers are issued to the donators. Maybe they do not like it, but they as the owners need to comment and they need to say yes or no. We will adapt to their wishes.

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Gerhard

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Our 5 cents worth!

1. We would be willing to contribute the R30 towards future awards, if the cacher is in our province or not.

2. The question if all of the 2000 caches should be South African ones or not will upset some cachers.

Why not make it that 80% of the caches found must be in South Africa, as we all will do a few in Namibia or Swaziland, which really are not going to make a huge difference. Whereas those found in America, UK , the Antipodes etc surely will.

3: Perhaps the cacher should reside in South Africa for more than 6 months in each calender year and have a local residential address.

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Our 5 cents worth!

1. We would be willing to contribute the R30 towards future awards, if the cacher is in our province or not.

2. The question if all of the 2000 caches should be South African ones or not will upset some cachers.

Why not make it that 80% of the caches found must be in South Africa, as we all will do a few in Namibia or Swaziland, which really are not going to make a huge difference. Whereas those found in America, UK , the Antipodes etc surely will.

3: Perhaps the cacher should reside in South Africa for more than 6 months in each calender year and have a local residential address.

 

Sorry, no cents in my wallet but I can throw in a couple of dirhams [worth a bit more than the cents anyway :antenna: ]

 

CnC's comments above are very pertinent, especially Pt 2 & 3. In fact, CnC will find themselves in this predicament in that they travel and have cached quite exstensively overseas. Auditing caches found could be a nightmare. Will the award now only be made when 2136 caches have been found because 136 where found whilst on holiday 5 years ago? Someone earlier mentioned it should be as simple and and easy as possible to manage.

 

I applaud the initiative and think it is a great idea. Keep it up and I wish you good luck. I do something similar within my family members as an incentive for them - obviously no rules imposed!! :antenna:

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CnC's comments above are very pertinent, especially Pt 2 & 3. In fact, CnC will find themselves in this predicament in that they travel and have cached quite exstensively overseas. Auditing caches found could be a nightmare. Will the award now only be made when 2136 caches have been found because 136 where found whilst on holiday 5 years ago? Someone earlier mentioned it should be as simple and and easy as possible to manage.

 

:antenna:

 

I don't think that less than 100 caches overseas qualifies as caching quite extensively! :antenna: And the same for our trip to Namibia.

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Issue 1: (Award handover)

Issue 2: (Milestone cut off and finance)

Issue 4: Who? (new one)

-AND-

2. The question if all of the 2000 caches should be South African ones or not will upset some cachers.

Why not make it that 80% of the caches found must be in South Africa, as we all will do a few in Namibia or Swaziland, which really are not going to make a huge difference. Whereas those found in America, UK , the Antipodes etc surely will.

3: Perhaps the cacher should reside in South Africa for more than 6 months in each calender year and have a local residential address.

 

1. Events are just perfect for the award "ceremony", and if an event is not planned close to the time of the milestone, what better reason to organise one? Events are always enjoyable, no matter the reason (if a reason to party is really needed...)

 

2. I feel quite strongly about the cut-off. To be fair regarding cache density in Europe, Australia and elsewhere, I propose that ONLY South(ern) African cache finds be included in the count.

Neighbouring countries - Lesotho, Swaziland, Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe and Mozambique should be included, but not any countries afar. Their cache density is just too different.

 

4. There is no reason to exclude foreigners or expats from this scheme. If a foreign cacher comes to SA often, and rakes up 2000 S.A. caches over a few years, he/she/they deserves the coin, just like any other.

I suspect it to be rather unlikely for now, though.

 

Hard and fast rules are needed, so that there can be no uncertainty who gets the award and who doesn't. It is important to interpret rules, and not judge people. Keep in mind that it is primarily the achievement that is rewarded, and secondly the team who achieved it.

 

I propose a simple question: Did the caching team find 2000 S.A. caches - yes or no?

If yes, they deserve a coin.

 

Ok, thats my 3 cents.

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After our 5 cents worth we are about to throw the cat among the pigeons!

Of the 3 teams that have received this award so far, one has more than 500 hundred finds overseas, which contributes to their 2000 and one has found no caches outside South Africa's borders!

Where to from here?

Edited by cownchicken

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According to their own stats page, South African caches only accounted for 1345 of CF's total.

However, with their commitment to the game and the number of caches they have planted I do not begrudge them the award in any way. I was privileged to have been considered as a donor and to be at the event to witness them receiving it.

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Wow this has got totally out of control - the original post was a thank you - now we have a ton of rules and regulations.

 

If I may put in an oar as well about the number of caches found - 2000 is 2000 and it seems a bit of a stretch to think that a cacher is going to rush overseas to find all the easy caches so that they can be awarded (or not now) the 2000 coin award.

 

Lets keep it real - 2000 is one massive bunch of caches wherever they were found!

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Lets keep it real - 2000 is one massive bunch of caches wherever they were found!

 

I agree, 2000 finds wherever is still an amazing achievement.

 

My criterion would be that if you consider you domicilium citandi et executandi to be in the SADC region and you have reached 2000 finds you qualify. QED.

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On the other side of the coin we have cache stashes. I am too scared to award on cache stashes. How do you award and compare a cacher with 50 lamp pole stashes against another cacher with 50 high quality and unique caches? I also have this feeling that if hides become an award then the quality of caches could suffer. I would rather settle for a yearly award such as the top 5 hides for the year. Here everybody can have a chance and the whole community can interact to find the top 5.

Here in the East London Region we have had a floating trophy for the last two years presented for the best cache placement of the year in the East London region. Each finder of the caches placed within the said year has a say as to the awarding of the trophy. I believe this has lead to some friendly completion in the placement of caches and has helped keep a high standard of the caches placed. I think it could only be beneficial to the sport if other region considered doing the same.

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We have been following these forum comments with great interest and would like to add our thoughts on the subject.

 

Receiving our wonderful geocoin on Sunday at the Event Cache was really special - it was great being able to share our coin and joy with our friends and fellow geocachers, so we would really recommend that, if at all possible, this does take place at an event cache. It is not necessary to specially organize one, but it could take place at any event.

 

We would not recommend geocoin awards for geocache placements, as this would encourage cachers to place as many caches as they can - not necessary good ones either! We also feel quite strongly that people should only place as many caches as they are able to maintain and the more caches you place the more difficult maintance certainly becomes!

 

Reward 2000 cache finds - to find that many caches you really do need to be committed geocachers and it is also a great incentive to work towards that number. The geocachers should be resident in South Africa, but whether all the finds need to have been found in South Africa, is really debatable. Geocaching is an international sport/hobby/game and we, for example, plan our holidays and travels around where we can geocache, whether it is a trip around our country or further afield.

 

We congratulate those who came up with this wonderful idea and would really like to contribute towards these coins and look forward to being informed as to how we should do this and yes, the donators should be allowed the privilege of discovering the coin too.

 

We would have absolutely no problem with giving a coin to someone who does not contribute towards these awards. They may not be in a possession to do so, but would cherish the coin just as much as we do!

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I think this is a great initiative and would be happy to add my name to the donors list. A few comments, although most has been said already.

 

1.) I like the idea of the handover taking place at an event, but I think it would be a good idea to consult the cacher in question beforehand what his/her/their preference is. Like Gerhard said, not everyone likes the limelight.

 

2.) It's hard to comment objectively on this one, as way more than half my finds were outside South Africa, but I consider myself very much a South African geocacher. It'll be hard to enforce the "2000 caches in SA" rule now that one of the awards has already gone to someone who doesn't meet that criteria. I personally is happy with the idea that (SA resident cacher) + (2000 finds) = (award), but one could impose say a 1000 SA cache minimum as a compromise?

 

3.) I have no problem with awarding a non-donor an award.

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Thanks for the replies. First we had a bag with a thank you, then we had 5 cents in the bag, then a cat in the bag and then we had an oar in the bag. Nice to see that no one wants to drop a bomb in this bag. :P Sorry TVM but I think this discussion is relevant to your topic. If I am wrong then I apologize for hijacking your topic.

 

I love the idea of the floating trophy. Well done and maybe we can have more of these in the other provinces.

 

The issues seemed to be resolved and we all agree more or less. The expat question is still open for debate. To highlight the problem I need to use a cacher as an example – unfortunately.

 

First we had the CF team. Very few people realize it but they were not on the 2000 cache find criteria at that stage when the coin was issued. This was discussed with some of the donators and they agreed that their value adding outweighs the requirement and an exception was made. Also the event they organized was probably the best opportunity to do the hand over. They are expats but yet they make sure that we read RSA stats everyday. They could have turned around and said that we are on our own but they did not do that. They are even involved with the tracking of the TB race. Some of the cachers on this forum are here because this team introduced them to this hobby. Some of the events they held had probably the most cacher count ever. In overall the positives exceeds the negatives by far. We could not exclude them and I think there are many others that will agree with me, the donators would not have been there if this was an issue to them. This team received the coin and the donators wanted to do this and they wanted to recognize their input and effort and to say well done. In my heart it was good to do this award and I think all of the donators feel the same and it was a huge pleasure to recognize team CF for their efforts and to experience their appreciation. Here we did not follow the rule but we done the right thing.

 

We have a person such as Carbon Hunter. I recognized this man as the person that actually got the earth cache ball rolling. It is simple to test his value. Did he add any value to me or not? The answer is yes – he did. If you remove all of his EC’s I will have little understanding of geological formations. EC’s will have no value to me and I will probably still be sitting on a silver level and not on platinum. He participates in this forum and his input is valued. Sometimes I do request more information from him to understand the EC and he will explain with no complains. Does he add value to the community – without a doubt yes. I speak on my own behalf but I am sure that there are many cachers out there that will support me. If Carbon Hunter achieved the 2000 mark with 1000 RSA caches should he not get it due to the value he added to all of us. I am sure that we will find the donators for his coin and that each donator will back us up with no hesitation. Same apply to Besem and many more.

 

The expats issue is a toughie and we have to throw the ideas around. Maybe there is not going to be a clear cut rule on this one. Some of the expats is getting close to the 2000 finds. I think the way forward will be on merits for the expats but not as a right to the award as this is a RSA community driven project. We will have to deal with each case separately. The coin represents the community so the community must have the final say in this award and donation. I will dread the day when Carbon Hunter is at 2500 cache finds with 1000 RSA finds and to say to him that our rule do not apply to him. If I ever meet him at an event then I will not be able to look him in the face as the rule will be unfair and I will know it. Sorry CH and CF for using you as an example but I think it is positive in the illustration and does highlight the extend of this issue with a reality. On the other side of the coin I think the idea from Besem to have a minimum RSA cut off limit as a requirement is good and fair and maybe this is the way to go. The simpler the better, it is easy to verify and easy to apply and to explain to someone and it is fair. Is this the way?

 

Gerhard

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2) Regarding the coin issue it would always be simpler to have a target number of local caches to be found, and I guess that is the idea of the coin - to celebrate X amount of caches found, BUT, and this is the part that is hard to quantify, we all know who our "local" cachers are, they might not have found a specific amount of local caches, but they regularly attend or organise events, they place caches, they give help or advice on the forums and they are making caching generally better for the rest of us. I know this makes a ridiculously tough combination of anomalies to try and quantify, but these people contribute immensely towards caching for everyone.

 

Does this maybe not lean towards having seperate coins for different things?

1) X amount of SA caches found - maybe 2000

2) X amount of total caches found - maybe 3000

3) Outstanding contribution to SA caching

 

Or does this further complicate the issue and water down the honour of receiving these coins?

 

Mike

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