High crime cache sites

[+Jeade'en]

I'm an emergency worker-geocacher in a large metropolitan area which unfortunatly also has a very high crime rate. There are major gangs, drugs & violence in abundance.

I understand that Geocaching is "at your own risk" but I was under the impression that this ment geologically. I can understand placing a cache in a mountain top and giving it a difficulty rating of a 5, but not placing it in a high crime area.

Unfortunatly there have been a couple of cachers over the past year who have been placing caches in high crime areas and labeling them as "nostalgic". I've read logs describing finding used hypodermic needles instead of the cache and many of these places, even while working, I won't go into without police back-up, let alone by myself.

I've met other cachers while out on the hunt myself, and they've also complained. I have a co-worker who sent one of them an e-mail about the some of the areas she's placed caches, and her boyfriend sent him back a threatening e-mail about wanting to meet him out caching sometime alone.

I'm very familiar with the area I live in and know which areas not to go into alone. If I'm in an area I'm not familiar with, I rely on the cache description to know if it's safe go there. I'm afraid someone who's not aware of the dangers are going to get hurt by a misleading cache description.

Does anyone have any suggestion on how to deal with these situations? My co-worker has notified the publisher about this but hasn't had a response.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Does anyone have any suggestion on how to deal with these situations? My co-worker has notified the publisher about this but hasn't had a response.

Sometimes the rules work in your favor... do you have any reason at all to believe, for example, that these caches do not have permission from the land owner to be there? If so a word to your Reviewer might get the problem resolved.

 

Safety, however, is not something that is evaluated when listing a cache, so you need some other reason, preferably a guideline violation, to get them archived.

 

Study the guidelines, there are lots of ways that a cache might not be compliant.

[4wheelin_fool]

I'm an emergency worker-geocacher in a large metropolitan area which unfortunatly also has a very high crime rate. There are major gangs, drugs & violence in abundance.

I understand that Geocaching is "at your own risk" but I was under the impression that this ment geologically. I can understand placing a cache in a mountain top and giving it a difficulty rating of a 5, but not placing it in a high crime area.

Unfortunatly there have been a couple of cachers over the past year who have been placing caches in high crime areas and labeling them as "nostalgic". I've read logs describing finding used hypodermic needles instead of the cache and many of these places, even while working, I won't go into without police back-up, let alone by myself.

I've met other cachers while out on the hunt myself, and they've also complained. I have a co-worker who sent one of them an e-mail about the some of the areas she's placed caches, and her boyfriend sent him back a threatening e-mail about wanting to meet him out caching sometime alone.

I'm very familiar with the area I live in and know which areas not to go into alone. If I'm in an area I'm not familiar with, I rely on the cache description to know if it's safe go there. I'm afraid someone who's not aware of the dangers are going to get hurt by a misleading cache description.

Does anyone have any suggestion on how to deal with these situations? My co-worker has notified the publisher about this but hasn't had a response.

 

They really shouldnt place caches in high crime areas, and they ought to put a warning on the page if they do, but you really cant stop them.

 

You can create a bookmark list such as DANGER HIGH CRIME and it will appear on the page as a warning.

 

There is a high crime area around here.

Notice the 45 murders in 2007 were not in any parks. In 2008 the 52 murders were not either. So far this year there has been about 30 which is an improvement. It looks like 2 are in green areas, but they aren't. There are not any caches in the danger areas, but the few nearby are not unsafe during the day.

Edited December 12, 2009 by 4wheelin_fool

[+ZeroHecksGiven]

I had a similar issue about a month ago. Cache was placed in a park, but that part of town can be pretty rough. I grew up there and still think it's kind of bad. I went for an FTF in the middle of the night, no issues, just creepy in the woods by yourself. Couldn't make the find, so I went back the next day and this is when it got sketchy. Started my hunt as usual, then noticed a guy kind of watching me from another trail. (should have mentioned it's a series of trails in a semi-wooded area, they circle around and I imagine it would be a ton of fun for kids). Anyways, I don't think much of it, but he never really approaches. So a few minutes go by and my girlfriend calls to say she's in the parking lot and how to find me. So I tell her and a minute later she walks around a corner and 20 seconds the dude is walking up behind her and then sees me and starts trying to be friendly and find out what we're doing. Thinking he might be a fellow cacher(benefit of the doubt here) I tell him we're looking for the cache and that my phone is saying right around here. He picks up on it quick and plays off everything I'm saying. He says he couldn't find it either, though he has no GPS. He keeps saying how he's been looking for the ammo can all day and can't find it, though the description clearly states it's a small, etc. Anyways, we're searching and he kind of wanders off after a minute or two. Pull up a piece of wood and find a crack pipe. Well, a light bulb that's been turned into a crack pipe. On the other side of this loop is about ten condoms on the backside of a big log. We search for a few more minutes until another guy wanders through. Both of these guys are normal looking older guys, clean shaven, decent hair, every day guys. We give up, but I plan to come back with a hint if I can get one(new cacher, bad coords).

I log my second DNF and mention all that I saw. That solo women shouldn't attempt this, solo anyone shouldn't attempt this, don't think kids should come along, mentioned the drug stuff. So I email for a hint, he's somewhat upset about my log saying he takes his kids there all the time, never been an issue, etc. So I edit the log anf ask for a hint because his coords are obviously off. He gives me a solid hint and I go back the next day. I spend a few minutes looking and yet another older guy walks by and he smells good, so weird. So I continue my search and I feel like I'm being watched. So I kind of look up and the dude is watching me from the bushes(dude, you're wearing a white shirt, I can see you!). So I keep facing towards him for whatever reason(I enjoy living) and finally make the find. Try to sign the log as quick as I can and get out of there.

 

I did get FTF after all of that, but wow, what a sketchy place. The only thing I can think of is it's a popular spot for men on craigslist to meet and enjoy the company of each other. Unless it's a really nice place to take a walk for well groomed older men.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

is there any chance that the people placing those Caches don't feel at risk in those places?? Just a thought. Not everyone feels the same level of risk in the same places. If you don't feel safe, move along.

[+W7WT]

In 2003, we were traveling east on I 64 headed to Charleston, WV. to pick up a few caches in downtown Charleston. We are in our 80s driving a Roadtrex van type RV. We stopped at a Reststop and talked to a lady State Patrol Officer. She advised us not to go downtown Charleston, so we didn't. In fact we didn't find any caches in WV at all. Had to make another trip near Martinsburg just a few years ago to pick up some caches to have cached in all the states. Sometimes you just don't know what you might be getting into. The advise she gave us could have been just a bad traffic area we should avoid. Dick

[Luckless]

I would have left a log describing what had happened detailing all my fears so other cachers know what they may be heading into. I'd hate to see some cacher get hurt for fear of offending the cache owner because I posted a log that mentions how creepy or scary it was for me. I also don't think I'd hesitate to post a note/DNF on a cache I haven't done saying that I think the area is too dangerous for me to do and why.

 

I've met other cachers while out on the hunt myself, and they've also complained. I have a co-worker who sent one of them an e-mail about the some of the areas she's placed caches, and her boyfriend sent him back a threatening e-mail about wanting to meet him out caching sometime alone.

Sounds like this message should have been forwarded to a reviewer at Groundspeak.

[+bflentje]

I'm an emergency worker-geocacher in a large metropolitan area which unfortunatly also has a very high crime rate. There are major gangs, drugs & violence in abundance.

I understand that Geocaching is "at your own risk" but I was under the impression that this ment geologically. I can understand placing a cache in a mountain top and giving it a difficulty rating of a 5, but not placing it in a high crime area.

Unfortunatly there have been a couple of cachers over the past year who have been placing caches in high crime areas and labeling them as "nostalgic". I've read logs describing finding used hypodermic needles instead of the cache and many of these places, even while working, I won't go into without police back-up, let alone by myself.

I've met other cachers while out on the hunt myself, and they've also complained. I have a co-worker who sent one of them an e-mail about the some of the areas she's placed caches, and her boyfriend sent him back a threatening e-mail about wanting to meet him out caching sometime alone.

I'm very familiar with the area I live in and know which areas not to go into alone. If I'm in an area I'm not familiar with, I rely on the cache description to know if it's safe go there. I'm afraid someone who's not aware of the dangers are going to get hurt by a misleading cache description.

Does anyone have any suggestion on how to deal with these situations? My co-worker has notified the publisher about this but hasn't had a response.

 

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, but why don't you just leave them be?? Let people make their own judgement calls as to what they consider dangerous or not. I'll never understand why people feel the need to micromanage the rest of the world.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I'm an emergency worker-geocacher in a large metropolitan area which unfortunatly also has a very high crime rate. There are major gangs, drugs & violence in abundance.

I understand that Geocaching is "at your own risk" but I was under the impression that this ment geologically. I can understand placing a cache in a mountain top and giving it a difficulty rating of a 5, but not placing it in a high crime area.

Unfortunatly there have been a couple of cachers over the past year who have been placing caches in high crime areas and labeling them as "nostalgic". I've read logs describing finding used hypodermic needles instead of the cache and many of these places, even while working, I won't go into without police back-up, let alone by myself.

I've met other cachers while out on the hunt myself, and they've also complained. I have a co-worker who sent one of them an e-mail about the some of the areas she's placed caches, and her boyfriend sent him back a threatening e-mail about wanting to meet him out caching sometime alone.

I'm very familiar with the area I live in and know which areas not to go into alone. If I'm in an area I'm not familiar with, I rely on the cache description to know if it's safe go there. I'm afraid someone who's not aware of the dangers are going to get hurt by a misleading cache description.

Does anyone have any suggestion on how to deal with these situations? My co-worker has notified the publisher about this but hasn't had a response.

 

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, but why don't you just leave them be?? Let people make their own judgement calls as to what they consider dangerous or not.

 

Because the risks are not always apparent. For example, there is a kayak/canoe only accessible cache along an urban "river" not far from me that shows the CO and a friend paddling near the beginning of the section that needs to be paddled. Looking at the photo it looks like a fairly easy class 1.5 paddle, for the most part. However, in the photo the two paddlers, neither wearing PFDs or a helmet, are just upstream from what appears to be a small low head dam. The text associated describes how the were able to safely navigate through that section. That would lead those that are not familiar with low head dams that there is little risk, even for an inexperienced paddler to safely go after the cache. If, however, one did a little research on low-head dams, also known as "drowning machines" are extremely dangerous because the danger is not conspicuous. Some of them *can* be navigated, if done correctly, but make a small mistake and the results can be fatal.

 

For someone not familiar with particular neighborhoods in a city, it might be pretty easy to wander into a bad part of town, unaware that you might be wearing the colors of a rival gang, and get into a dangerous situation. How would you feel if you placed a cache in a unsafe locations, someone went in search of it oblivious to the danger they were putting themselves in, you had information that might have given them caution, and they're were mugged, assaulted, or even murdered? What possible purpose does it serve to withold information that might make geocaching a safer experience?

[+briansnat]

I would hope the cache page mentions the fact that it's a high crime area, but I think it's perfectly fine to place caches in them. Nobody forces people to find certain caches. If the don't like the area they are free to stay in their car and move on out of there.

 

I have a cache in a high crime area. It's a virtual and has been there for 6 or 7 years. A few people have mentioned feeling uncomfortable in their logs, but not one of the nearly 200 finders has reported an incident.

 

I warn people on the page and it is their choice to find it.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, but why don't you just leave them be?? Let people make their own judgement calls as to what they consider dangerous or not. I'll never understand why people feel the need to micromanage the rest of the world.

It's not micromanagement to help each other. We're all in this together, so letting folks make their own calls is cool, but why not give them good information with which to make those calls?

 

And why even place caches which may lead the unwitting into unseen trouble that they might not be able to handle?

 

As far as my comments about trying to get them archived I feel as you apparently do on the issue of cache safety when we're talking about a cache where the danger is obvious - a low-head dam on a kayaking stream or at the edge of a cliff, let the cacher decide how much risk they are willing and able to take on. Mentioning the risk on the cache listing is one way to help in these situations without micromanaging.

 

A high-crime area is different... especially when racial tension is high (and it always is in high-crime areas). Humans are both the most vicious creatures on Earth and the most trusted, so unless we have reason to know that an urban block is under gang control, for instance, we don't know that we should not go there. The Norwood neighborhood of Birmingham where my grandmothers lived and I spent many happy days is a wide boulevard with trees and parks spread along it, massive once-majestic homes line the sides, it is a beautiful spot for urban geocaches. No one following a map along Norwood Boulevard would ever expect this lovely bucolic once-affluent residential neighborhood to be a battleground controlled by gangs. When I take my American Red Cross Disaster Assistance Team in there to respond to a house fire we don't go in without a cop staying with us while we try to help the very people who threaten us. NO, I would not put a cache there!

 

The big thing here lately is Punch, where roving gangs of black youth cruise the streets and malls. When they see a white man one of the group will walk up and hit him as hard as he can to see if he can knock the man out with one blow. No words, no warning, no robbery, they just laugh and walk away. They got my son, who was walking beside me, at the county fair last year. We were walking along talking, enjoying ourselves when out of the blue this punk pops Cliff (then 36) in the side of the head. After checking on him we look up and the gang of kids is walking off with their "What you gonna do about it" attitude. This year the fair was canceled because the neighborhood had so deteriorated into crime. No other animal on Earth but humans hurts another for the fun of it.

 

So yeah, I take high-crime areas seriously and would not want the unwitting attracted there to find a geocache.

[CoyoteRed]

I warn people on the page and it is their choice to find it.

I don't believe there is such a thing as too dangerous. Known, invisible dangers should be highlighted on the cache page. Still, I'd advise, very strongly, against placing a cache in certain very small areas in my city.

[+Walts Hunting]

This is not a nanny hobby. High crime areas are usually fairly obvious. If at any time a cacher feels uncomfortable they can just go away and put it on the ignore list. Let's not try to be everybody else's mother.

[CoyoteRed]

If at any time a cacher feels uncomfortable they can just go away and put it on the ignore list.

Tell that to the person who just got robbed. "You know, you should have just walked away. He couldn't rob you if you walked away."

 

[+Team Cotati]

I warn people on the page and it is their choice to find it.

I don't believe there is such a thing as too dangerous. Known, invisible dangers should be highlighted on the cache page. Still, I'd advise, very strongly, against placing a cache in certain very small areas in my city.

 

"I don't believe there is such a thing as too dangerous."

 

Could you please expand upon that statement? Thanks.

[+bflentje]

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, but why don't you just leave them be?? Let people make their own judgement calls as to what they consider dangerous or not. I'll never understand why people feel the need to micromanage the rest of the world.

It's not micromanagement to help each other. We're all in this together, so letting folks make their own calls is cool, but why not give them good information with which to make those calls?

 

I'll give you the providing of information. But anything in regards to getting a reviewer involved or having the cache removed IS a little presumptuous. I suppose I should back now and read the OP.

[+Team Cotati]

This is not a nanny hobby. High crime areas are usually fairly obvious. If at any time a cacher feels uncomfortable they can just go away and put it on the ignore list. Let's not try to be everybody else's mother.

 

Yes, high crime areas are fairly obvious, once you are in the area. Giving the cache seeker fair warning on the cache page just seems the right and responsible thing to do.

 

In my opinion, doing this does not make the CO your nanny.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Team Cotati

[+bflentje]

If at any time a cacher feels uncomfortable they can just go away and put it on the ignore list.

Tell that to the person who just got robbed. "You know, you should have just walked away. He couldn't rob you if you walked away."

 

 

I am your

[+wimseyguy]

We all have differing levels of our awareness for danger and desire to confront it. While I agree that high crime areas in towns are not desirable cache locations, there isn't anything that prevents hiders from placing them, nor for those who enjoy seeking them. I would think that someone who works as a local EMT would have a better than average understanding of which blocks they are in their hometowns.

 

But there isn't any good reason to prohibit the hiding of these caches, nor any good way to do it. Adding them to a bookmark list proclaiming the area as a HIGH CRIME one is almost as antagonistic as the cache placement in the first place. Regarding the veiled threat to discuss this further out on the trails someday-that isn't an issue for a volunteer reviewer to deal with. But if the email was sent through the geocaching.com system, it is a violation of the Terms of Use and should be forwarded to 'contact@geocaching.com'.

And I would put any future hides by these cachers on my ignore list.

Edited December 12, 2009 by wimseyguy

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Well, if "try to get them archived" isn't acceptable then I would surely go with the HIGH CRIME bookmark list.

 

Either way you're gonna get flamed, us 'do-gooders' are always gonna irritate some folks!

[+usyoopers]

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, but why don't you just leave them be?? Let people make their own judgement calls as to what they consider dangerous or not. I'll never understand why people feel the need to micromanage the rest of the world.

It's not micromanagement to help each other. We're all in this together, so letting folks make their own calls is cool, but why not give them good information with which to make those calls?

 

And why even place caches which may lead the unwitting into unseen trouble that they might not be able to handle?

 

A high-crime area is different... especially when racial tension is high (and it always is in high-crime areas). Humans are both the most vicious creatures on Earth and the most trusted, so unless we have reason to know that an urban block is under gang control, for instance, we don't know that we should not go there. The Norwood neighborhood of Birmingham where my grandmothers lived and I spent many happy days is a wide boulevard with trees and parks spread along it, massive once-majestic homes line the sides, it is a beautiful spot for urban geocaches. No one following a map along Norwood Boulevard would ever expect this lovely bucolic once-affluent residential neighborhood to be a battleground controlled by gangs. When I take my American Red Cross Disaster Assistance Team in there to respond to a house fire we don't go in without a cop staying with us while we try to help the very people who threaten us. NO, I would not put a cache there!

 

The big thing here lately is Punch, where roving gangs of black youth cruise the streets and malls. When they see a white man one of the group will walk up and hit him as hard as he can to see if he can knock the man out with one blow. No words, no warning, no robbery, they just laugh and walk away. They got my son, who was walking beside me, at the county fair last year. We were walking along talking, enjoying ourselves when out of the blue this punk pops Cliff (then 36) in the side of the head. After checking on him we look up and the gang of kids is walking off with their "What you gonna do about it" attitude. This year the fair was canceled because the neighborhood had so deteriorated into crime. No other animal on Earth but humans hurts another for the fun of it.

 

So yeah, I take high-crime areas seriously and would not want the unwitting attracted there to find a geocache.

 

I know that we would very much like some kind of warning of area's like this. We travel quite a bit and rely on geocaching to take us to places that you might not see as the average tourist...off the beaten track so to say. I really wouldn't want to be taken here without a little heads up of what we might encounter.

 

Not all people are from urban area's and are really quite ignorant about things like this happening, for us anyway, it is really hard to imagine! Get your maps out and find the Upper Peninsula of Michigan....stuff like that doesn't go on here- please warn us of bad parts of the Country!!

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Get your maps out and find the Upper Peninsula of Michigan....stuff like that doesn't go on here- please warn us of bad parts of the Country!!

Will do! I don't want geocachers wandering into bad-guy country any more than y'all want to find yourself there.

 

I've been watching documentaries about yoopers, and the stuff that goes on up there is indeed different!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb9yhhflmvY

[+Whiteboy47]

This is not a nanny hobby. High crime areas are usually fairly obvious. If at any time a cacher feels uncomfortable they can just go away and put it on the ignore list. Let's not try to be everybody else's mother.

This has nothing to do with being someones mother.it's about common sence we all know our areas where we live and know if it's safe or not. high crime areas are sometimes not as obvious at night as in the day time.thats why you should put it on the cache page so people can put it on their ignore list before they go into these areas.Take last mth i went to KS and was out caching at night when my cars computer system went out and died on the spot.what if i was in one of these areas when it died.would have something happen to me or not is not the point here it's i should have the choice to be there or not and the only way i could decide that is if the co of the cache puts a warnning on the cache page about the area.on a side note i hope to get my car back from KS by xmas

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Take last mth i went to KS and was out caching at night when my cars computer system went out and died on the spot.what if i was in one of these areas when it died.would have something happen to me or not is not the point here it's i should have the choice to be there or not and the only way i could decide that is if the co of the cache puts a warnning on the cache page about the area.on a side note i hope to get my car back from KS by xmas

Yep, the same thing happened to me four months ago while caching way out in the sticks. Glad I wasn't in any of the several high-crime areas of Birmingham!

 

OT but I will post it here instead of a PM because it happens so often to so many:

 

Don't pay dealers to replace the Engine Control Module at $800 to $1500, get one from somewhere like http://ecmoutlet.com/

 

Send them the car info including VIN and mileage, they'll program it AND give a lifetime guarantee for ~$200!

 

Replacing it in my Dodge Durango took four screws and less than 10 minutes.

Edited December 13, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+lavender5215]

I think any one who is considering placing a cache in a dangerous/high crime place should take a look at this website.

 

My two sense is, Geocaching is supposed to be fun and sometimes even educational, but I wouldnt go some place in a high crime area just because it is historical or educational, interesting, etc. It is sad though that a lot of historical places of interest have been sucked up in to urban sprawl or with age the neighborhoods have gone "bad", but thats just how it is.

 

The Geocachers’ Creed

www.geocreed.info

 

WHEN PLACING OR SEEKING GEOCACHES, I WILL:

1. Not endanger myself or others

2. Observe all laws and rules of the area

3. Respect property rights and seek permission where

appropriate

4. Avoid causing disruptions or public alarm

5. Minimize my and others' impact on the environment

6. Be considerate of others

7. Protect the integrity of the game pieces

[+BrrrMo]

This is not a nanny hobby. High crime areas are usually fairly obvious. If at any time a cacher feels uncomfortable they can just go away and put it on the ignore list. Let's not try to be everybody else's mother.

 

Interesting. So you are from Rescue, Ca?

[+Minimike2]

My new cache :

Diamonds Are Forever 1/1 Large

This is a night cache, so bring your flashlight! I have stocked the 5 gallon bucket with a 5 carat diamond necklace for the FTF. There are plenty of diamond jewelry pieces in there for trading. I ask that you please take only one thing and trade with a McToy for it. The McToys are valuable to me!

 

 

Then I just be a muggle and mug them when they arrive. They have lots of stuff I can sell.

[+Arrow42]

My new cache :

Diamonds Are Forever 1/1 Large

This is a night cache, so bring your flashlight! I have stocked the 5 gallon bucket with a 5 carat diamond necklace for the FTF. There are plenty of diamond jewelry pieces in there for trading. I ask that you please take only one thing and trade with a McToy for it. The McToys are valuable to me!

 

 

Then I just be a muggle and mug them when they arrive. They have lots of stuff I can sell.

 

It would sure make the FTF race more interesting...

 

On a serious note.. there are a lot of dangers involved in some aspects of caching. Falling, poisons plants/animals, infection vectors, wild animals, traffic and violent homeless people are all risks even when in a rural environment. If your not comfortable with the level of danger that is present in searching for a cache it is your responsibility to skip that cache. There are caches half-way up cliffs that I don't ever intend to search for. I get not wanting to look for caches in the ghetto... the solution isn't to ask for them all to be banned or contrive to get them archived. The solution is to avoid those caches.

 

You know people live in these areas, right? Some actually cache. It's the height of arrogance to tell them they can't cache near their own homes.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Arrow42

[+BCandMsKitty]

Not exactly 'High Crime" area, but ....

 

We have a great park in our town, part open fields, part woodlot with trails, along a river bank. Great place for a cache, or two, or four, and I put one there. Got a couple of DNF logs and sure enough, it was gone. I archived it and made plans for a new cache at a different location. No sense losing another lock n lock.

well, As I was finding and marking the location, then going back to the truck to get the cache container and finish the cache details for the log book, I noticed that I was followed into the woodlot area by one man ... met another going in as I went back to the truck. As I sat in the truck I see the first one coming back out of the woodlot.

Hmmm.

I decided to not place the cache right away, and a phone call to one of my cop buddies confirmed my suspicions.

 

This park has degraded into the city's place of choice for a homosexual men's pick-up spot!

 

Apparently they even patrol it from time to time with plain clothes officers.

 

I decided to not place a cache at all, so as not to expose families and children to anything like that.

 

There are some houses along one side of the parking area and my bigest concern was that one or more of the residents had seen me frequenting the area, and might think that I was of the same persuasion!

It's a small town, after all! Not to mention that one of the men I saw might even have been a cop!

 

I can see the headlines now. "Correctional Officer identified in a local Gay Men's hangout!"

 

Anyway, I decided that if I myself felt uncomfortable hiding and maintaining a cache there, I shouldn't lead others to it by having a cache there.

 

If I wasn't aware of the situation, I would welcome input from a finder about it, but I wouldn't appreciate anyone telling me I couldn't have a cache there, along with the proper warnings on the cache page.

Edited December 13, 2009 by BC & MsKitty

[+Arrow42]

This park has degraded into the city's place of choice for a homosexual men's pick-up spot!

 

I can write the cache description for you...

 

Title: A cache with a happy ending!

Short Desc: "Reach around this stump to find the...

 

err... ok, I'll stop here.

[+BCandMsKitty]

somehow, I don't think so .....

[+geodarts]

The last time I was out of town for business, I was caching at night in an unfamiliar urban area. There was one cache that warned people not to go there at night, that it was on the fringes of an area that very few people would want to be. I appreciated the warning, although I did the cache anyway since it seemed safe enough at the time. And I did not go further into that part of town, which I later learned was indeed best avoided.

 

There are places where I might decide not to look for a cache once I get to the general location. There are also areas where I would not want to even venture at certain parts of the day. There are many caches where I wonder why somebody wanted to bring people to that particular spot, and others that provide enough information so I can make up my mind about whether or not I want to go there. If a cache is in an area where somebody is reasonably likely to be at risk, there is a certain duty to let people know that.

[+ras_oscar]

my 2 cents

 

Its not up to the reviewers to determine the level of danger in the neighborhood as a practical matter its not possible for that evaluaton to be made.

 

everybody has a different level of tolerance for danger. Its within the boundaries of the rules to place a cache anywhere that the hider has permission. Its also the responsibility of the seekers to report in their logs their experiences, particluarly where real or perceved danger of injury exists. If i rolled up to a cache where 3 or 4 previous finders reported danger I'd probably pass. Such a cache most likely would quickly go offline. No gnashing of teeth required.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Oh, great! Now we need an attribute for pickle parks! I don't go caching at night, so that probably keeps me away from areas that might be dangerous at night. But I've been caching in at least three parks (two quite well known) where the muggles were actively involved in getting to know each other, on a Sunday morning. We ignored them. They ignored us. Not necessarily a great place to hide a cache, but not dangerous areas.

I have done the aforementioned virtual cache, and never had any worries. I've found a number of benchmarks in that city, and they only time I was worried was looking for a benchmark on City Hall, across from the Sheriff's Office/County Jail. The only other car parked threre had a window busted out, and the radio stolen. "You stay with the car. I'll be back in a minute."

I've done caches where other people have found a gun, and a butcher knife. Not good to hide a cache where other people are hiding weapons. I found a cache where another cacher was mugged. (He did get his GPS back from the police.) No, I wouldn't go into any of these parks after nightfall.

I have an urban micro cache hidden in an area that I find interesting (near a supermarket I shop in, on occasion). Not a dangerous area, but a couple of cachers said they felt very out of place and uncomfortable there. Oh, well.

There are a few parks that I'm leery about visiting. Best time is late Sunday morning, with lots of people about.

Use common sense. Quite frankly, I'm more afraid of bear, and I know that the black bear are not going to hurt me.

[+Carbon Hunter]

Well I think in most parts of the world - CRIME is a REALITY.

 

I do believe it is the CO's responsibility to warn cachers of any potential dangers - but it is also the cachers duty to take due care of themselves - from bears, snakes, cliffs, rivers and potential criminals.

 

In parts of Africa - crime is an unfortunate but yet all too often reported part of the caching. But I do not hear of many cachers calling for caches to be shut down - rather just be aware and take care.

 

Just because you are a cacher going to a cache - it does not make you immune to ANY danger - so - watch for all risks - from traffic, wildlife - all the way to potential criminals. You choose where you cache - and when you cache and even if you cache.

[+Woodstramp]

If you want to evaluate an area for high crime the geocaching map will give you rough estimate beforehand. "Bad" parts of town are almost totally void of caches. That is clearly visible from the Google maps. Most cachers put hides in places they'd take kids.

 

Ran into this a few weeks ago on a trip to Atlanta. The Nuvi autorouted us through rough section of town on a shopping trip on the way in. I did not want to autoroute back out the same way later after dark. After we arrived I put in a cache loaded SD card and sure enough, that area of town we'd routed through was almost void of hides.

[CoyoteRed]

If at any time a cacher feels uncomfortable they can just go away and put it on the ignore list.

Tell that to the person who just got robbed. "You know, you should have just walked away. He couldn't rob you if you walked away."

 

I am your

Well, as someone who has to take reports from folks who have been robbed or burgled, I can tell you hindsight is 20/20, if not better. In hindsight they would have been more diligent, would have locked the doors, would have avoided the situation, if only they had known.

 

Sure, some folks do all those things and don't become a victim. Some don't realize there might be a crime issue in that area until after they are hit.

[+Team Cotati]

I think any one who is considering placing a cache in a dangerous/high crime place should take a look at this website.

 

My two sense is, Geocaching is supposed to be fun and sometimes even educational, but I wouldnt go some place in a high crime area just because it is historical or educational, interesting, etc. It is sad though that a lot of historical places of interest have been sucked up in to urban sprawl or with age the neighborhoods have gone "bad", but thats just how it is.

 

The Geocachers’ Creed

www.geocreed.info

 

WHEN PLACING OR SEEKING GEOCACHES, I WILL:

1. Not endanger myself or others

2. Observe all laws and rules of the area

3. Respect property rights and seek permission where

appropriate

4. Avoid causing disruptions or public alarm

5. Minimize my and others' impact on the environment

6. Be considerate of others

7. Protect the integrity of the game pieces

 

While that is really nice information to know, it has been my observation that only responsible, respectful and considerate citizens pay much attention to them.

 

You could probably find a list of what makes a 'good' neighbor. Good neighbors do not need such a list, 'bad' neighbors couldn't care less.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Team Cotati

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Its not up to the reviewers to determine the level of danger in the neighborhood as a practical matter its not possible for that evaluaton to be made.

True, and that is as it should be. Neither Reviewers nor Groundspeak evaluate cache listings for danger.

 

...everybody has a different level of tolerance for danger. Its within the boundaries of the rules to place a cache anywhere that the hider has permission. Its also the responsibility of the seekers to report in their logs their experiences, particluarly where real or perceved danger of injury exists. If i rolled up to a cache where 3 or 4 previous finders reported danger I'd probably pass. Such a cache most likely would quickly go offline. No gnashing of teeth required.

It is indeed within the guidelines to place a cache in any permissible area without regard to physical danger or perceived crime level.

 

Whether it is within the bounds of good sense and concern for other players is the question here.

 

My position is that we do have a personal duty and responsibility to avoid luring others into known high-crime areas by placing a cache there.

 

A foundry I once did a network computer system for used to sell castings to antique dealers on King Street in Charleston SC. They made them in a gray-iron foundry here in Birmingham or imported them from China and India and sold them to antique dealers in high-dollar tourist areas such as the famed King Street Antique District and the French Quarter in New Orleans. Some (can't say all, but I think most) were prone to take a casting such as an iron boot scraper, ornamental iron fence panel or a horse head casting for a post finial and toss it out in the weather for six months or so behind their shop. When it was sufficiently rusty and weathered they would bring it in and suddenly this casting was an antique that had gained in value from the $5 they paid for it a few months ago to an item "of indeterminable age, but apparently very old" and sold for $75. So, one could argue that just about the whole place is a high-crime area. However, there is a particular cross-street, I don't remember the name of it, that divides King Street from okay to not okay in terms of violent criminal activity... I have never seen such a clear divide anywhere else. King Street east of that intersection, cool, west of it, not so much. This is a huge tourist area and only if a local warned you would you know about this divide and which side to geocache on! If I lived there I would not have any problem hiding a cache in the antique district, even knowing that certain shop owners were crooks, because they pose no physical threat to geocachers. I would not choose to put caches in the more dangerous area due to simple consideration for geocachers.

 

Here in Birmingham we have a long-existing Pickle Park at a parking lot and wooded trail area where US Hwy 280 crosses the Cahaba River. Because they cause no trouble the police choose to ignore this place, so for at least 30 years that I know of it has been known to locals as a safe hangout for gay men. Sometimes in election years a Mayor or Sheriff will put on a 'Christian Morals Crusade' to run them off, but that doesn't last beyond election day. If you are with someone else, especially a woman or kids, you may see these guys sitting in their car or walking on the trail but they will leave you completely alone. If you are male and go there by yourself then they may try to make eye contact or somehow signal their interest, but I have never heard of any of them acting out or making a hard pass at anyone... a simple shake of the head and they ignore you.

 

There are picnic tables at the parking lot, which is beside the river at a spillway dam so it is a beautiful spot that can be seen easily from the highway, thus it attracts the un-knowing who, driving by, just see a pretty picnic spot for lunch. There is also a popular canoe put-in just below the dam.

 

So, a cacher aware of the location's activities but not believing these men to be of danger to anyone (they're not, they police their own behavior, which is why the police leave them alone) put a cache there. I was FTF on it and while there was watched by a couple of men at different places coming in the trail and looking for the cache. Knowing this to be a pickle park I called them over, explained the game, told them that geocachers would be coming to look for it, showed them the cache and contents, and asked them to please put out the word to their friends that it was there and to leave it alone. They did, and the cache never had any trouble from muggles.

 

However, pretty quickly more and more online logs began to say something like "OMG! There's GAY men here and one of them LOOKED at me! ICKY! I just knew that my life was in danger! This cache should be archived IMMEDIATELY!!!"

 

No indication whatsoever of danger, just your typical redneck homophobia. Evidently many folks equate gay with child-molesting rapist criminals.

 

So it became a topic on our local forum... is leading folks to a known pickle park acceptable?

 

As in this thread some defended the right for any cache to exist anywhere, some thought "OMG! Gays! Archive it!" and some, as here, thought that putting a warning in the cache description was sufficient. Interestingly, the two 'out' gays in our geocaching association thought the cache should be archived so the geocachers wouldn't intrude on the men there!

 

The overwhelming responses were along the lines of "Yes, you can place a cache there, but I wish you wouldn't. I don't want to go to such a place."

 

The warning in the listing idea didn't meet with good reception because so many of us cache paperless and just follow the GPS to the next nearest, so those folks would not see the warning.

 

After maybe six months the cache owner decided that in the face of so many alarmist logs and overwhelming "I wouldn't" posts in our local forum that it was best to archive it.

 

Perhaps a year later another cacher, not knowing the spot or its geocaching history, thought "what a lovely place" and hid a cache there. Overwhelmingly our community of cachers explained why it wasn't such a good spot and he archived it within days.

 

Since then that spot has remained free of caches by consensus.

 

Danger then, from our fellow humans (at least here in central Alabama) IS treated by cache hiders as different than physical danger (a cliff, etc), but cacher discomfort is considered as well and we as a geocaching community choose not to put caches where seekers will likely be uncomfortable.

 

It isn't about Guidelines or whether the place is permissible, it's about would we want to be taken there. In that particular case it was decided that taking someone to a pretty place was over-ridden by the decision not to put them in an uncomfortable position, er, place.

 

I like that. I like that I can feel comfortable that if a local cacher puts a cache there then they feel like it is an okay place. That's not to say a safe place, just not one that should give cachers a case of the leaping fantods.

 

I think that's common sense and simple courtesy.

[+KBI]

Caveat hunter

 

– Let the cache seeker beware.

[+bflentje]

I think any one who is considering placing a cache in a dangerous/high crime place should take a look at this website.

 

My two sense is, Geocaching is supposed to be fun and sometimes even educational, but I wouldnt go some place in a high crime area just because it is historical or educational, interesting, etc. It is sad though that a lot of historical places of interest have been sucked up in to urban sprawl or with age the neighborhoods have gone "bad", but thats just how it is.

 

The Geocachers’ Creed

www.geocreed.info

 

WHEN PLACING OR SEEKING GEOCACHES, I WILL:

1. Not endanger myself or others

2. Observe all laws and rules of the area

3. Respect property rights and seek permission where

appropriate

4. Avoid causing disruptions or public alarm

5. Minimize my and others' impact on the environment

6. Be considerate of others

7. Protect the integrity of the game pieces

 

Here, I corrected it for you.

 

The Geocacher's Creed

[+Rustynails]

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, but why don't you just leave them be?? Let people make their own judgement calls as to what they consider dangerous or not. I'll never understand why people feel the need to micromanage the rest of the world.

It's not micromanagement to help each other. We're all in this together, so letting folks make their own calls is cool, but why not give them good information with which to make those calls?

 

And why even place caches which may lead the unwitting into unseen trouble that they might not be able to handle?

 

As far as my comments about trying to get them archived I feel as you apparently do on the issue of cache safety when we're talking about a cache where the danger is obvious - a low-head dam on a kayaking stream or at the edge of a cliff, let the cacher decide how much risk they are willing and able to take on. Mentioning the risk on the cache listing is one way to help in these situations without micromanaging.

 

A high-crime area is different... especially when racial tension is high (and it always is in high-crime areas). Humans are both the most vicious creatures on Earth and the most trusted, so unless we have reason to know that an urban block is under gang control, for instance, we don't know that we should not go there. The Norwood neighborhood of Birmingham where my grandmothers lived and I spent many happy days is a wide boulevard with trees and parks spread along it, massive once-majestic homes line the sides, it is a beautiful spot for urban geocaches. No one following a map along Norwood Boulevard would ever expect this lovely bucolic once-affluent residential neighborhood to be a battleground controlled by gangs. When I take my American Red Cross Disaster Assistance Team in there to respond to a house fire we don't go in without a cop staying with us while we try to help the very people who threaten us. NO, I would not put a cache there!

 

The big thing here lately is Punch, where roving gangs of black youth cruise the streets and malls. When they see a white man one of the group will walk up and hit him as hard as he can to see if he can knock the man out with one blow. No words, no warning, no robbery, they just laugh and walk away. They got my son, who was walking beside me, at the county fair last year. We were walking along talking, enjoying ourselves when out of the blue this punk pops Cliff (then 36) in the side of the head. After checking on him we look up and the gang of kids is walking off with their "What you gonna do about it" attitude. This year the fair was canceled because the neighborhood had so deteriorated into crime. No other animal on Earth but humans hurts another for the fun of it.

 

So yeah, I take high-crime areas seriously and would not want the unwitting attracted there to find a geocache.

 

Where's Clint when you need him?

[+Minimike2]

We have had areas that became pickle parks over the years. They didn't last long due to local police patrols. ATM we have a park, out in the county that is serving the same purpose. We have a cache hidden at GZ and there are several others that require foot transit through the active area. Perhaps the presence of cachers will discourage the 'seekers' and they will move on eventually.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

 

You know people live in these areas, right? Some actually cache. It's the height of arrogance to tell them they can't cache near their own homes.

Thanks for saying that...I've been trying to think of just how to put it. We all know that the vast majority of Cachers are not from these neighborhoods, but is it our place to tell people that they are welcome to join us in the game, but as long as they only play in nice neighborhoods?? Give me a break. OK, I see nothing wrong with hoping for a description of the hidden risks in an area, I also see nothing wrong with a seeker including all their observations on a Cache log...it's done all the time, and in ways that will not offend the Cache owner. Of course if these "Polite emails to the Cache owner" have anything near the tone of some of these forum posts, of course they will offend the CO. If we're talking about forbidding these Caches, or archiving them...give it up.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

Ok, let's flip this on it's head real quick...

 

"I'm a Thug from the ghetto, and I have this GPS thing that I boosted from some car at the mall. I tried this Geocahing game, but everything seems to be hidden in all these neighborhoods where I feel threatened and out of place. Half of the times I've tried to look for Caches, the cops have been called on me, and I get harrassed for twenty minutes...I don't think people should be hiding Caches in neighborhoods where I'm going to get harrassed all the time."

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

We have had areas that became pickle parks over the years. They didn't last long due to local police patrols. ATM we have a park, out in the county that is serving the same purpose. We have a cache hidden at GZ and there are several others that require foot transit through the active area. Perhaps the presence of cachers will discourage the 'seekers' and they will move on eventually.

Well, if pickle parks shouldn't have Caches, then most Rest Areas are out of the question.

[+DanOCan]

Interesting thread -- I wonder how I managed to go through life this far without hearing the phrase "pickle park" before.

 

Anyway, I would never place a cache in an area I know to be high crime. I would like to think most of my fellow cachers would do the same. However, since "most" is not "all", I take it upon myself to read the descriptions and the previous logs to try and weed out those caches that might not be in the best parts of town.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Okay. Here's an edited version of an interesting log...

 

I noticed that the park was virtually empty - just as I expected at 8:00 AM. I admired the views from the overlook and scouted-out a route down the steep hillside - the skeletal remains of an long iron staircase. Down I went without a problem and over to the brush where my GPSr was pointing.

Now here's where the fun began.

I must have been followed because just as I started searching, I heard footsteps approaching. Not the sound of someone walking by, but slow deliberate steps. I poke my head up and spot two guys scanning the hillside to see where I went. I saw them before they saw me, so it was quite obvious what they were looking for. I say "what's up?" and just get stares in return. They walk by but stop just out of sight.

Growing up in the city and working on the streets for 16 years makes me feel that my senses are well tuned. So, right about now I know that something isn't right and I feel my brain release a hefty dose of adrenaline as a reaction to the stress. Not the type situation that I'd prefer, but it feels good nonetheless.

My mind is racing now, but I just want to find the cache and get the hell out of here, so I continue searching.

Again I here them walking over and before I look up I hear "watcha doin' ova there?"

"looking for snakes" I respond without even thinking like I'm some sort of bad a** herpetologist(yeah, it's funny now but I'll admit I was scared).

Instead of them walking off together, they split-up, one on the path to the north and the other to the south. Now I have no doubt at all that I'm going to get jumped.

My options are pretty much limited now. I'm alone, in a closed section of a park, with only one route choice left - up.

Lucky I can climb because the hillside is very steep with barren rock outcroppings. So, up and out I went."

 

Great park. Spectacular views!! Historic. Not the best neighborhood. This cacher returned two weeks later for the FTF. Not knowing this, we went two days later for 2nd & 3rd of 5 to find. Bright, sunny Sunday afternoon, with lots of people in the park. We were surprised that, when we followed the trail into the woods, the kids playing in the woods went running out! Found cache with little problem. It was archive a few months later.

Sometimes it depends on when and how you search for a cache. Quite a shame that this part of the park is not well maintained. It is a spectacular location! Oh, well. BTW, no new caches have been hidden in this section of the park since. Were we crazy to go hunting for it? Naw. We chose a good time for the search.

[+BlueDeuce]

Does anyone have any suggestion on how to deal with these situations?

 

Yes - Maintain a very close community.

 

For example, take the time to cache together. Talk about the caches to find and to avoid, and how to take care of yourself while caching. Do the things every cacher should be doing, like telling someone where you are going. Carry the right tools and supplies.

 

It is possible to be realistic about caching and still enjoy yourself.

[+sbell111]

Its not up to the reviewers to determine the level of danger in the neighborhood as a practical matter its not possible for that evaluaton to be made.

True, and that is as it should be. Neither Reviewers nor Groundspeak evaluate cache listings for danger.

...everybody has a different level of tolerance for danger. Its within the boundaries of the rules to place a cache anywhere that the hider has permission. Its also the responsibility of the seekers to report in their logs their experiences, particluarly where real or perceved danger of injury exists. If i rolled up to a cache where 3 or 4 previous finders reported danger I'd probably pass. Such a cache most likely would quickly go offline. No gnashing of teeth required.

It is indeed within the guidelines to place a cache in any permissible area without regard to physical danger or perceived crime level.

 

Whether it is within the bounds of good sense and concern for other players is the question here.

 

My position is that we do have a personal duty and responsibility to avoid luring others into known high-crime areas by placing a cache there.

 

A foundry I once did a network computer system for used to sell castings to antique dealers on King Street in Charleston SC. They made them in a gray-iron foundry here in Birmingham or imported them from China and India and sold them to antique dealers in high-dollar tourist areas such as the famed King Street Antique District and the French Quarter in New Orleans. Some (can't say all, but I think most) were prone to take a casting such as an iron boot scraper, ornamental iron fence panel or a horse head casting for a post finial and toss it out in the weather for six months or so behind their shop. When it was sufficiently rusty and weathered they would bring it in and suddenly this casting was an antique that had gained in value from the $5 they paid for it a few months ago to an item "of indeterminable age, but apparently very old" and sold for $75. So, one could argue that just about the whole place is a high-crime area. However, there is a particular cross-street, I don't remember the name of it, that divides King Street from okay to not okay in terms of violent criminal activity... I have never seen such a clear divide anywhere else. King Street east of that intersection, cool, west of it, not so much. This is a huge tourist area and only if a local warned you would you know about this divide and which side to geocache on! If I lived there I would not have any problem hiding a cache in the antique district, even knowing that certain shop owners were crooks, because they pose no physical threat to geocachers. I would not choose to put caches in the more dangerous area due to simple consideration for geocachers.

 

Here in Birmingham we have a long-existing Pickle Park at a parking lot and wooded trail area where US Hwy 280 crosses the Cahaba River. Because they cause no trouble the police choose to ignore this place, so for at least 30 years that I know of it has been known to locals as a safe hangout for gay men. Sometimes in election years a Mayor or Sheriff will put on a 'Christian Morals Crusade' to run them off, but that doesn't last beyond election day. If you are with someone else, especially a woman or kids, you may see these guys sitting in their car or walking on the trail but they will leave you completely alone. If you are male and go there by yourself then they may try to make eye contact or somehow signal their interest, but I have never heard of any of them acting out or making a hard pass at anyone... a simple shake of the head and they ignore you.

 

There are picnic tables at the parking lot, which is beside the river at a spillway dam so it is a beautiful spot that can be seen easily from the highway, thus it attracts the un-knowing who, driving by, just see a pretty picnic spot for lunch. There is also a popular canoe put-in just below the dam.

 

So, a cacher aware of the location's activities but not believing these men to be of danger to anyone (they're not, they police their own behavior, which is why the police leave them alone) put a cache there. I was FTF on it and while there was watched by a couple of men at different places coming in the trail and looking for the cache. Knowing this to be a pickle park I called them over, explained the game, told them that geocachers would be coming to look for it, showed them the cache and contents, and asked them to please put out the word to their friends that it was there and to leave it alone. They did, and the cache never had any trouble from muggles.

 

However, pretty quickly more and more online logs began to say something like "OMG! There's GAY men here and one of them LOOKED at me! ICKY! I just knew that my life was in danger! This cache should be archived IMMEDIATELY!!!"

 

No indication whatsoever of danger, just your typical redneck homophobia. Evidently many folks equate gay with child-molesting rapist criminals.

 

So it became a topic on our local forum... is leading folks to a known pickle park acceptable?

 

As in this thread some defended the right for any cache to exist anywhere, some thought "OMG! Gays! Archive it!" and some, as here, thought that putting a warning in the cache description was sufficient. Interestingly, the two 'out' gays in our geocaching association thought the cache should be archived so the geocachers wouldn't intrude on the men there!

 

The overwhelming responses were along the lines of "Yes, you can place a cache there, but I wish you wouldn't. I don't want to go to such a place."

 

The warning in the listing idea didn't meet with good reception because so many of us cache paperless and just follow the GPS to the next nearest, so those folks would not see the warning.

 

After maybe six months the cache owner decided that in the face of so many alarmist logs and overwhelming "I wouldn't" posts in our local forum that it was best to archive it.

 

Perhaps a year later another cacher, not knowing the spot or its geocaching history, thought "what a lovely place" and hid a cache there. Overwhelmingly our community of cachers explained why it wasn't such a good spot and he archived it within days.

 

Since then that spot has remained free of caches by consensus.

 

Danger then, from our fellow humans (at least here in central Alabama) IS treated by cache hiders as different than physical danger (a cliff, etc), but cacher discomfort is considered as well and we as a geocaching community choose not to put caches where seekers will likely be uncomfortable.

 

It isn't about Guidelines or whether the place is permissible, it's about would we want to be taken there. In that particular case it was decided that taking someone to a pretty place was over-ridden by the decision not to put them in an uncomfortable position, er, place.

 

I like that. I like that I can feel comfortable that if a local cacher puts a cache there then they feel like it is an okay place. That's not to say a safe place, just not one that should give cachers a case of the leaping fantods.

 

I think that's common sense and simple courtesy.

I think that the local cachers in question should butt out. It is not their place to monitor everyone else's cache locations. If they don't care for the spot, they can simply ignore the cache.

 

How rude.

We have had areas that became pickle parks over the years. They didn't last long due to local police patrols. ATM we have a park, out in the county that is serving the same purpose. We have a cache hidden at GZ and there are several others that require foot transit through the active area. Perhaps the presence of cachers will discourage the 'seekers' and they will move on eventually.

Agreed. One of the reasons that crime takes over parks like those discussed in this thread is because people allow it to happen. They give the criminals a nice quiet place to be. The more 'regular' people that use these areas, the less comnfy the miscreants will be.

Okay. Here's an edited version of an interesting log...

I noticed that the park was virtually empty - just as I expected at 8:00 AM. I admired the views from the overlook and scouted-out a route down the steep hillside - the skeletal remains of an long iron staircase. Down I went without a problem and over to the brush where my GPSr was pointing.

Now here's where the fun began.

I must have been followed because just as I started searching, I heard footsteps approaching. Not the sound of someone walking by, but slow deliberate steps. I poke my head up and spot two guys scanning the hillside to see where I went. I saw them before they saw me, so it was quite obvious what they were looking for. I say "what's up?" and just get stares in return. They walk by but stop just out of sight.

Growing up in the city and working on the streets for 16 years makes me feel that my senses are well tuned. So, right about now I know that something isn't right and I feel my brain release a hefty dose of adrenaline as a reaction to the stress. Not the type situation that I'd prefer, but it feels good nonetheless.

My mind is racing now, but I just want to find the cache and get the hell out of here, so I continue searching.

Again I here them walking over and before I look up I hear "watcha doin' ova there?"

"looking for snakes" I respond without even thinking like I'm some sort of bad a** herpetologist(yeah, it's funny now but I'll admit I was scared).

Instead of them walking off together, they split-up, one on the path to the north and the other to the south. Now I have no doubt at all that I'm going to get jumped.

My options are pretty much limited now. I'm alone, in a closed section of a park, with only one route choice left - up.

Lucky I can climb because the hillside is very steep with barren rock outcroppings. So, up and out I went."

Great park. Spectacular views!! Historic. Not the best neighborhood. This cacher returned two weeks later for the FTF. Not knowing this, we went two days later for 2nd & 3rd of 5 to find. Bright, sunny Sunday afternoon, with lots of people in the park. We were surprised that, when we followed the trail into the woods, the kids playing in the woods went running out! Found cache with little problem. It was archive a few months later.

Sometimes it depends on when and how you search for a cache. Quite a shame that this part of the park is not well maintained. It is a spectacular location! Oh, well. BTW, no new caches have been hidden in this section of the park since. Were we crazy to go hunting for it? Naw. We chose a good time for the search.

Note the two bolded bits. The cacher's spidey sense was tingling like crazy, so he kept looking or the cache. He's lucky that his stupid decision to ignore his own senses didn't have a catastrophic result.