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Muggle question


Zurfco

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I see a lot of log entries that talk about avoiding muggles when finding a cache.

 

OK, so I understand what a muggle is in this context.

 

What I don't get is that if this is a legitimate exercise (and it is), why the concern if someone sees you doing it? Is it a matter of keeping the cache hidden from predation? Or is it just an added measure of fun and challenge trying to be sneaky?

 

I ask, because there are some caches near my home I intend to take the family to look for, and there is NOTHING sneaky about my little girls. The youngest would probably go find someone to tell him or her how sneaky she's being.

 

- Zurfco

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I think part of the fun is avoiding Muggles and acting stealthy. My kids love pretending they're hunting for treasure and don't want others to know. I know a couple of people who have been stopped by police because someone else saw them poking around in a bush or tree and thought they were up to something illegal.

 

I would be worried about Muggles finding and taking/destroying a cache. I have found one opened and it's contents scattered about. Don't know who or what did it, but why take that chance.

 

I guess it all depends on the circumstances...

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I see a lot of log entries that talk about avoiding muggles when finding a cache.

 

OK, so I understand what a muggle is in this context.

 

What I don't get is that if this is a legitimate exercise (and it is), why the concern if someone sees you doing it? Is it a matter of keeping the cache hidden from predation? Or is it just an added measure of fun and challenge trying to be sneaky?

 

I ask, because there are some caches near my home I intend to take the family to look for, and there is NOTHING sneaky about my little girls. The youngest would probably go find someone to tell him or her how sneaky she's being.

 

- Zurfco

 

Sadly, in the past, I've seen it suggested in here that even if the CO has requested that finders use stealth when hunting for their cache, that finders ought to essentially ignore the request and simply go for it, muggles be danged. The logic seems to be that if the CO was irresponsible enough to place a cache that required such stealth, that it was their problem if it became known to muggles who might later rip it off.

 

Now do not get me wrong, I personally do not subscribe to that logic and when The Team does go after a cache so identified, we in fact do our best to honor the CO's request. To be honest though, over the years we have begun to avoid such hides due to what we refer to as "the embarrassment factor" of having muggles staring at us while hunting for the cache. We do think though that every responsible cache hunter ought to try as best they can to honor such requests of CO's.

 

Excessive stealth requirements just takes the fun out of it for The Team.

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Have one of The Team disrobe completely and run around, yelling "BEES!!!" in circles 200 yards away from the cache. Nobody will notice you at the cache.

 

The bad part of this option is it being your turn in mid-February in Montana.

 

Depending upon how buff or fine one is: one might be subjecting observers to a sight and a half which could burn their eyes out. LOL, LOL

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Picture sitting in your car on lunch break, you see a couple of people poking around in the bushes. ok maybe you think nothing of people prowling around at the time, but over the course of a couple of weeks you see people visiting these bushes.

 

How long before you report this strangeness or go and investigate it yourself? Once a muggle finds the cache who knows what will happen.

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Have one of The Team disrobe completely and run around, yelling "BEES!!!" in circles 200 yards away from the cache. Nobody will notice you at the cache.

 

The bad part of this option is it being your turn in mid-February in Montana.

 

I know that those boys over in Wyoming are into that type stuff, but Montana? I'd have never guessed. :):laughing::P

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I have seen some areas that I dont think you could avoid being seen. I have tried to go after some that were micro in areas full of people. How do you be stealthy looking for a micro in an area full of people? Now I wont even search for those caches. When someone hides one like that, it is only a matter of time until it comes up missing. If someone dont want it stolen, dont hide it where someone can easily be seen looking for it.

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I have seen some areas that I dont think you could avoid being seen. I have tried to go after some that were micro in areas full of people. How do you be stealthy looking for a micro in an area full of people? Now I wont even search for those caches. When someone hides one like that, it is only a matter of time until it comes up missing. If someone dont want it stolen, dont hide it where someone can easily be seen looking for it.

>>> 10-4 to the last posters sentiments <<< I get antsy caching in a fishbowl. Certainly increases the potential for the cache to be purloined.
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I have seen some areas that I dont think you could avoid being seen. I have tried to go after some that were micro in areas full of people. How do you be stealthy looking for a micro in an area full of people? Now I wont even search for those caches. When someone hides one like that, it is only a matter of time until it comes up missing. If someone dont want it stolen, dont hide it where someone can easily be seen looking for it.

I have found many of these types of hides. To the best of my knowledge none has ever been compromised due to my being observed retrieving or replacing the cache. Act like you belong, do your thing, leave. When muggles ask what I am doing I tell them in general terms about the game. I talk about scavenger hunts since they seem to be well known and benign.

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Have one of The Team disrobe completely and run around, yelling "BEES!!!" in circles 200 yards away from the cache. Nobody will notice you at the cache.

 

The bad part of this option is it being your turn in mid-February in Montana.

Of course...especially since you'd get locked in the asylum...there are no bees in Montana in mid-February(except maybe the queens in hibernation.

 

The primary reason is for the security of the Cache. If non geocachers become aware of the location, the Cache is more likely to be compromised...it can also lead to Bomb Scares, if people are not aware of what you are hiding(too many people are paranoid, and afraid to ask what you are hiding or invstigate on their own).

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I once went after a cache after dark on a roadside that gets a bit of traffic. Flashlight and all, there I am looking for this quick find a half mile from home.

 

AFTER the fact, I noticed that the cache page said something about "Stealth Required." Now, I've been working on this game for almost two years before ever noticing the Stealth requirement. So I think I'm on the fence with this one.

 

Part of me agrees with the folks who say that cache hiders should choose a better place to hide the cache. They should consider that newbies like myself have perhaps not known about this stealth requirement cause most of the caches found so far have been out in the woods someplace. OK, My fault... I wasn't thinking. But I looked for that cache by the road with NO idea in my mind about muggles at the time. Man did I ever get nervous about that one once I realized what Stealth Required meant and I considered that I may well have forever compromised that cache. (All OK with that cache though. Thankfully, I didn't jeopardize the cache.)

 

On the other hand though, if it's made Well Known what that stealth required thing means, then I also agree that it can add to the fun (or skill level needed) to go out and find such caches. When you fully understand the mission and realize that stealth is needed on this one, than I see it as an extra measure of adventure. One could think about geocaching as somewhat of a Cloak and Dagger type of mission and this can certainly add a whole new level to the basic game for both the hider and the hunter.

~~~~~~~~~

Considering my experience, I'm now leaning more toward the fact that Experience pays off as you get into the game more and understand more about what all is involved. In my case, I made the mistake by not catching the Stealth Required notice on the cache page. I've since learned from that mistake and will keep on learning more and more as I progress. I'll keep on understanding more about Geocaching as I keep on gaining more experience.

 

Live and Learn. That's a good way to sum it up. Now I know better to check all of the details involved in my future missions/cache hunts, and also I'll be better prepared for the next one.

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Muggles are just part of the fun with geocaching. There is quite a thrill attempting to find something without looking like you are trying to find something.

 

The issues with that is if you look too suspicious the police can become part of your experience. There is also the danger of a geocache being stolen or thought of as a bomb depending on the circumstances. When stealth is required it is more for protecting the hidden geocache more than anything.

 

-HHH

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Picture sitting in your car on lunch break, you see a couple of people poking around in the bushes. ok maybe you think nothing of people prowling around at the time, but over the course of a couple of weeks you see people visiting these bushes.

 

How long before you report this strangeness or go and investigate it yourself? Once a muggle finds the cache who knows what will happen.

 

One of my first cache finds was on a municipal water tower that was next to some apartments. A guy who lived in those apartments came out as we were (unsuccessfully) searching and asked what we, and all the other cachers that had been there before us, were looking for. He had watched numerous cachers from his kitchen table and finally came over to ask what was going on. We explained geocaching, and he helped us find it. The cache is still there and I often wonder if the man ever took up caching....

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We just go for them and act like we are doing nothing special. I have yet to find that a cache was muggled after this approach.

 

Tell me, when a cache goes missing, is there a way to know if it was muggled? And if you were to determine that it was muggled, is there a way to know if the muggler muggled the thing because he saw some trying to find it or if he just stumbled upon it out of dumb luck? How about if the muggle found it by looking at the geocaching.com www site?

 

There are possibly many ways that a cache can go missing. A cache searcher being observed by a nefarious muggle is certainly a reasonable possibility but not the only posibility. Thus it is only the right thing to do to help ensure that you do not unintentionally assist such bad muggle behavior.

 

I'd imagine that the CO would appreciate it too.

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A local cacher was asked what he was looking for. He said "snakes" - bye bye muggles! In that instance anyway - with my luck, the muggle would offer to help me look!

Using stealth to avoid non-cachers can be tricky, but helps to extend the life of the cache. A great deal of work goes into a lot of these hides, so we do our best to abide by the CO's directions.

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The way I see it acting with stealth means acting in a manner that does not attract attention to you and your actions. Behaving like you belong at a particular place is a great way to be stealthy. Acting like you are sneaking around and trying not to be seen or noticed is a great way to get people to start paying attention to you.

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I was a muggle once. Where I worked I noticed people go to a lampskirt and lift it up and get something, write something and put it all back. After seeing this a few times I decided to see what they were up to. I found a film cannister with some paper in it and a lot of strange names. The next one I saw I asked what they were doing and they explained about geocaching. I looked it up on the net and the rest is history. I guess the moral of this is that not all muggles are bad.

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There is nothing illegal about geocaching, so you can't get into any sort of trouble if a non-geocacher finds out. The problem is some Muggles will go back and destroy/remove a cache after they see you rehide it, which is why many geocachers try to be stealthy.

 

Many people take the stealth thing too far. They start acting like this sport needs to be hid entirely from non-geocachers, much as the fictional Harry Potter wizarding world needs to be hidden from Muggles (non-magical folk people, which is where we got the word).

 

I find that as long as you don't think of yourself as doing something suspicious, no one will even notice you. The more you worry about Muggles, the more suspicious you seem to be acting and the more people will be wondering what you are doing.

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People who find a cache accidently do not have the same level of respect for it, compared to someone who has taken the time to hunt it down by, finding out about the game, using a computer to access the website, search for a specific cache, and then use a GPS to track it down.

 

Geocachers tend to have more respect for difficult caches also, as well as hides that have some thought put into them or in very remote locations.

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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I've taken to a philosophy of avoiding going for a cache if it would be an egregious violation of people's sense of what's acceptable in the area you are in - so, for instance, being an adult white male, I don't go for playground caches if moms are present with their kids. On the other hand, sometimes caches are placed in such a way that it's impossible to find it without being seen by someone, such as the cache on a payphone on a busy city street surrounded by busy businesses and restaurants. In those cases, I do my best to minimize the looking around suspiciously while searching that so many people do when trying to be sneaky. Most of the time, if you are purposeful in doing something or being in an area, everyone just assumes you are supposed to be there.

 

I just wanted to add one more thing that I noticed. I've run across fellow cachers in the past. It's funny how antisocial these people seem to be - because they are worried that they might accidentally give away what they are doing to a 'muggle' if they so much as speak to me. This happened several times. I met a mom and a couple of kids in a State Park heading right for a cache in the middle of the woods we had just found. We'd seen these same people about four times as we took different paths to the same spot and we got to it first by a minute or so. They walked by us all those times and their attempts to look nonchalant were actually rather endearing. Then when we were just starting to leave GZ, they walked up and I inquired whether they were searching for a cache or not. They just kept walking until they saw my GPS, then suddenly they were conversationalists! :) This has actually happened a few times. People need to understand that trying to hard to appear like you aren't up to anything just screams, "HEY! I'M UP TO SOMETHING!"

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Part of the challenge to me, in finding the caches that are hidden in 'high muggle' areas, is that of figuring out ways of looking for the cache while looking like you're doing something else altogether.

 

Ex. there's a cache at a boat launch. We park in the parking lot, no boat attached. Watch with amusement as some guy tries to direct his wife back down the boat ramp to load said boat....ok, I soooo wanted to go give her good directions on backing up because husband obviously had no skill level at ALL....rofl....but that's beside the point.

 

My caching partner wanders around, finds ground zero. It's right at a bunch of strategically placed boulders setting off the parking area from a grass area. Out comes the camera, I sit on ground zero, try to look photogenic while he backs up, kneels down and uses the camera lens on zoom to locate the cache....yep, right there, a little to the left of your feet....drop water bottle, score cache. We finish the photo op, rest awhile on the rocks, replace cache, watch another boating couple struggle with the ramp just for the fun of it.

 

No one had a clue, that's using our skill levels for stealth in a high muggle area. Some days it's almost as much fun finding ways to be stealthy as it is finding the caches.

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I have a few ways that I handle the whole muggle thing, and it all depends on the situation.

 

First off, even though our society says it is wrong to do, I do a bit of profiling when it comes to muggles. If I pull up to a park and there are muggles, based on what they look like or what they are doing I decide if they are likely to mess with the cache if they accidentally see me find it. For example, if there area a bunch of teenagers sitting around on a play ground talking, I will decide not to do the cache. If there is a Mom and Dad there with there kids playing, I will usually go for it.

 

When I decide to go after a cache, I will go after it and not try and hide may actions. Becasue like stated earlier, typically if you try and make it look like you are up to no good you usually fail.

 

And here is something that I do, and some people may disagree with. If I do notice that someone is watching me closely, or is getting suspicious of my activities; I continue to look for the cache until I find it. Then I will make an effort to come in direct contact with that person, to the point that I may even make a comment like, "You must think I am up to no good." And then I will explain to them what I was doing. Most people I do this with are very interested, and amazed that something like this exists and they are totally unaware of it. I think that by doing this you leave a lot less to chance on how that person will react to the scene that they just observed.

 

And on a final note, I really do think that having kids with you not only makes it more enjoyable, but also makes it easier to hide your activities.

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OK, well thanks everyone. I am enlightened.

 

So, I guess we need to add to the cache kit two large, reflective safety orange vests for my wife and I and two little ones for the kids, some hard hats, and some aluminum clipboards. If you've got a hard hat, an orange vest, and a clipboard, you can go anywhere. Once on a dare that I couldn't stop traffic on a busy street I got a tape measure of the sort used for track & field events, got two hard hats, orange vests, and an aluminum clip board. I carried a standard sawhorse out, put it in the street, had my buddy stand by with the clipboard while I ran the tape across the street, and everyone waited politely including a policeman. We measured the width of the street, wrote it down, picked up the sawhorse, loaded it back up in a truck, and then casually walked off. I won the bet.

 

Not sure it would work with a four year old, though.

 

In addition to those other items, we'll have to add a swarm of bees too. Fortunately, we live in Virginia, which will minimize the frostbite opportunities.

 

- Zurfco

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Having a Plain White truck also seems to help at times. And holding the (GPSr) device in my hand that no one can obviously tell what it is... I guess that helps too.

 

I guess, ... If you look like a Utilitarian Worker and act accordingly, you can find yourself being in all sorts of places where the average guy might have the police called on them.

 

Using a camera and taking Pics also seems to alleviate questions from those who don't know. Having a Tri Pod might also make that regular Camera look like a piece of Surveying equipment to the average eye.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I dunno. That might not work out too well if your red sports car is anywhere near GZ. I guess it all depends on where you are and what it might Appear that you are doing. A plain white truck though has proven to be an asset to me.

 

JMHO.

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I got pretty badly muggled last night. Spooked a whole family with a dog. I just signed the log, put my gloves back on, and went on my way. I was planning to tell them I was looking for UFO activity if they asked. Sometimes it's good to have a plan.

Anyhow, when I left, they all just stared at me as I walked past them.

Oh well. At least they didn't sick their dog on me... :lostsignal:

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Having a Plain White truck also seems to help at times. And holding the (GPSr) device in my hand that no one can obviously tell what it is... I guess that helps too.

 

I wouldn't say that. I was in Monterey, CA awhile back, had found a cache and was walking down the sidewalk to the next one (about 1/4 mile away). About half way there a family was walking in the opposite direction. I had my GPS on a lanyard around my neck, and as I passed by one of them said, "geocaching?"

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Having a Plain White truck also seems to help at times. And holding the (GPSr) device in my hand that no one can obviously tell what it is... I guess that helps too.

 

I guess, ... If you look like a Utilitarian Worker and act accordingly, you can find yourself being in all sorts of places where the average guy might have the police called on them.

 

I feel alot less conspicuous pulling up in strange places in my van, I also have things like a hard hat, reflective vest and clipboard in my van so can look really official if I want to.

 

My main reason for avoiding muggles is that I know how curious yet irresponsible people are. If kids (or some adults) see something being hidden I know there's a high chance they will go and find it, take anything they want and do who knows what with the rest, replace it somewhere else, drop the contents on the ground, throw it away etc etc.

 

Also thanks to the media in this country it seems anyone acting suspiciously nowadays could be viewed as a possible terrorist or paedophile, I'd rather not arouse any suspicion and cause any concern or possibly waste police time. There was a cache near me in a residential road that the local neighborhood watch committee thought was a drugs stash because they had seen people picking it up and replacing it.

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Take the family pet dog with you. If anyone walks past while you're ferreting around in the undergrowth you just pretend to be looking for a lost ball. Sorted. :rolleyes:

 

I like the dog idea. That's part of the appeal of Geocaching for me anyway ... I get out with the dog.

I don't really care for the term "Muggles". It sounds derisive & elitist. I got interested in the sport because it seemed friendly & inclusive. Having said that I do understand the need for stealth but in the future I'll use the term non-cacher instead of muggle

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I suggest carrying around some religious pamphlets and try to engage the muggle(s) in conversation about religion. "I'd like to talk to you about your relationship with God" and offer a pamphlet. Muggles will scatter instantly. Meanwhile, other members of the team can search GZ for the cache virtually unnoticed. Done correctly, you can clear out large areas/entire parks. :):rolleyes:

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People who find a cache accidently do not have the same level of respect for it, compared to someone who has taken the time to hunt it down by, finding out about the game, using a computer to access the website, search for a specific cache, and then use a GPS to track it down.

 

Geocachers tend to have more respect for difficult caches also, as well as hides that have some thought put into them or in very remote locations.

 

Amen ! I have put out my first two GCs in public areas in residential areas near places of extreme interest for the home architecure and owner's history, in hours BOTH of my GCs were tampered with including stolen, removed my box container, and/or moved and harshly judged about in logs. I am thinking about just not replacing them over these matters. I already replaced one AND moved it and lost it, it still was not enough for one local newbie GCer (who had the ironic nerve to claim finding my GC as his FTF) who moved my GC a second time.

I am close enough to monitor them by droppping by within minutes of reading the log notes on the Internet site. When you take your own time, effort, resources, monies, and energies to put out a interesting GC, and have to worry about muggles, gardeners, neighbors, and even unkind, malicious or stupid GCers......it's too much sometimes. All I was doing was trying to contribute to the fun I enjoy, show people some local beauty in their lives along with some interesting local history. It was for nothing. Crap!

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Hey all - Just wanted to jump in here and thank everyone for all the posts in this thread. The muggle/non-geocacher was a question I had as well, and thanks to everyone, it has been thoroughly answered :D

 

I'm a newb to geocaching (found 2 so far), and one of my biggest worries is being seen by non-cachers and having the cache stolen or tampered with and it being my fault. There is one cache I can't seem to get near due to the multitude of humanoids nearby, yet the cache has visitors on a daily basis. So it obvious I'm doing it wrong :)

Edited by canid65
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