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Feature Request: Official Puzzle Checker


JohnE5

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I request an gc.com coordinate checker build into the cache listing. They already have the coordinates hidden from view, it would not be that difficult to add this feature. Of course the checker would have an attempts per hour feature, say 5/h?

 

Once some one confirms the coordinates the lat/long at the top of the page should change to the new coordinates. It would make downloading PQ much easier than solving it, downloading a file then changing it on the GPS.

 

I believe this would also help when hiders are looking for spots, now even if they solve it and find it, later when they want to hide a cache near the puzzle they have to resolve the puzzle.

 

Adding an attribute of include/exclude puzzles/letterboxes I have solve/not solved would be a great way to stream line the PQ.

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Of course the checker would have an attempts per hour feature, say 5/h?
That's still plenty of attempts to brute-force puzzle solutions. How about waiting an hour before you can make your second attempt, then 2 hours before you can make your next attempt, then 4 hours before you can make your next attempt, then 8 hours before you can make your next attempt, and so on?

 

Do you expect puzzle cache owners to opt in, or to opt out?

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I agree that having the ability to override the bogus coordinates with the solved coordinates would be a nice feature.

 

At the risk of being flogged, I'll mention that third-party tools (**cough, cough...GSAK**) already make keeping track of corrected coordinates pretty simple.

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I agree that having the ability to override the bogus coordinates with the solved coordinates would be a nice feature.

 

At the risk of being flogged, I'll mention that third-party tools (**cough, cough...GSAK**) already make keeping track of corrected coordinates pretty simple.

 

GSAK is a nice piece of work. It sure would be nice if we could do some of that stuff right here though.

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Opt in/out option sounds reasonable.
Let me clarify...

 

Would the default for a mystery/puzzle cache be to use the coordinates checker, with cache owners being allowed to opt out?

 

Or would the default for a mystery/puzzle cache be NOT to use the coordinates checker, with cache owners being allowed to opt in?

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Opt in/out option sounds reasonable.
Let me clarify...

 

Would the default for a mystery/puzzle cache be to use the coordinates checker, with cache owners being allowed to opt out?

 

Or would the default for a mystery/puzzle cache be NOT to use the coordinates checker, with cache owners being allowed to opt in?

From my experiences most hiders don't have checkers because they don't know how to add one. I suggest making the default to have it automatically be included. If the CO doesn't want it to have one it can be an option on the edit page just like the premium member only option.

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I think the checker should be built-in and mandatory.

 

If we discourage placing the false coordinates on a questionable location because someone may inadvertently go there, then shouldn't we discourage the deriving of bad coordinates accidentally?

 

But that is really just spin - I don't have a car and it is a long way to some caches with indeterminate multiple unverifiable solutions. I'd like to know FOR SURE to where I am pedaling.

 

Having the false coordinates replaced with the correct ones after a solution is found negates the need for any third-party tool or extra step to get the numbers into the GPSr

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From my experiences most hiders don't have checkers because they don't know how to add one. I suggest making the default to have it automatically be included. If the CO doesn't want it to have one it can be an option on the edit page just like the premium member only option.

 

Oh, dear! Most hiders are too stupid to know how to use Geochecker, so we should force it on them???

Do you know how bad that sounds?!?

A coord checker is a nicety that some people choose to use. There is no requirement for it. Forcing it on people to streamline your paperwork sounds a bit much to me.

I vote no!

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One per hour sounds good.
That's still enough to brute-force puzzles. That's why I suggested starting with an hour delay before a second attempt, and then doubling the delay for each unsuccessful attempt.

 

Of course, any limitation is going to be subverted, depending on how you enforce the limitation. It's easy enough for many people to clear cookies, get new IP addresses, or even create disposable geocaching.com accounts.

 

I've brute-forced coordinates checkers. It isn't that hard.

 

I think an opt-in coordinates checker could be a useful feature, especially if it encouraged GS to support corrected coordinates in PQs. But I think an opt-out coordinates checker (or worse, a mandatory coordinates checker) is a bad idea.

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an opt-in coordinates checker could be a useful feature, especially if it encouraged GS to support corrected coordinates in PQs.

 

For that reason alone, I would accept this compromise. The coordinates would have to be changed up-front, so I dont have to PQ->GSAK-GPSr them.

 

Also, a built-in checker would allow me to filter out puzzle caches that choose not to allow verification of their coordinates this way.

 

Someone more conspiracy-minded than me might suspect that there is no built-in checker because GS has agreed not to undermine the ad revenue of other third-party checkers...

 

knoll.gif

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I think the checker should be built-in and mandatory.
And if the issue of people brute-forcing puzzle solutions isn't enough reason to oppose mandatory coordinates checkers:

 

I've found puzzle caches where you ended up with multiple sets of coordinates, and part of the puzzle was figuring out which of those coordinates matched the cache's description, attributes, terrain rating, etc. A mandatory coordinates checker would subvert such puzzles.

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I've found puzzle caches where you ended up with multiple sets of coordinates, and part of the puzzle was figuring out which of those coordinates matched the cache's description, attributes, terrain rating, etc. A mandatory coordinates checker would subvert such puzzles.

 

More than one solution for this cache resulted in a lengthy bicycle trip to a location with no cache. Sad day.

 

How about an opt-in checker? This would allow me to filter out caches whose location cannot be confirmed before going out the door?

 

Again, the bonus part of this would be the changing of the coordinates to the actual set before sending to the GPSr

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I think the checker should be built-in and mandatory.
And if the issue of people brute-forcing puzzle solutions isn't enough reason to oppose mandatory coordinates checkers:

 

I've found puzzle caches where you ended up with multiple sets of coordinates, and part of the puzzle was figuring out which of those coordinates matched the cache's description, attributes, terrain rating, etc. A mandatory coordinates checker would subvert such puzzles.

In case like this the CO could opt out.

 

As for the brute force attack. Caches should be within 2 miles of the final, that leaves thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lat/ long combos.

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I agree that having the ability to override the bogus coordinates with the solved coordinates would be a nice feature.

 

At the risk of being flogged, I'll mention that third-party tools (**cough, cough...GSAK**) already make keeping track of corrected coordinates pretty simple.

 

GSAK is a nice piece of work. It sure would be nice if we could do some of that stuff right here though.

 

100% agree. The ability to correct coordinates for a puzzle cache seems like a natural feature. I currently add a solved puzzle to a private bookmark list with the coords and update in GSAK. Found out the hard way that the internet capable phone we have won't navigate past the first page of a bookmark list, since that requires javascript - pretty sure that was the error it was giving us anyway.

Edited by rob3k
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what would be the added value of having one the GC site?

 

The GC site-integrated checker would keep track of whether you solved the puzzle or not. If you go back to that cache page (under your login) it will show the actual co-ordinates because it will know you solved it already.

 

Thus, when you click the Send To GPS button, it will send the actual coordinates. No reprogramming, no GSAK.

 

For me, it would be nice to be able to filter out caches where I can't have confirmed coordinates in my hand before I go out the door. There is no capability to filter on the presence of a third-party checker.

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And if the issue of people brute-forcing puzzle solutions isn't enough reason to oppose mandatory coordinates checkers:

 

I've found puzzle caches where you ended up with multiple sets of coordinates, and part of the puzzle was figuring out which of those coordinates matched the cache's description, attributes, terrain rating, etc. A mandatory coordinates checker would subvert such puzzles.

How about an opt-in checker?
In case like this the CO could opt out.
An optional checker (whether opt-in or opt-out) is fine. My objection is only to a mandatory checker.

 

As for the brute force attack. Caches should be within 2 miles of the final, that leaves thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lat/ long combos.
There are ways to narrow down and automate the search. Also, some puzzles don't have an exact solution, and accepting any answers within an appropriate radius makes brute-forcing the solution even easier.

 

what would be the added value of having one the GC site?
As frinklabs suggested, it could be integrated into the rest of the geocaching.com database. It could use the final coordinates already stored in the system. It could be integrated with a new "corrected coordinates" system that some of us would like to have. It could present a standard UI (hopefully one with a single text input field, rather than one with 6 text input fields and 2 select fields). It could be used by cache owners who can't (or who don't want to) use HTML in their cache descriptions.
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I think the checker should be built-in and mandatory.

I'd refuse.

 

I'd like to know FOR SURE to where I am pedaling.

There's your problem. You want a guaranteed find. I"d never demand to know a know is there before renting a boat or paddling 45 minutes to a cache. For me, that's part of the adventure. "Is it there?"

 

When I first made our checker I did so only as a convenience for folks to check the solutions without having to wait for me to verify the solution. I was also the first to release a script for anyone to use and place on their own site for checking solutions. But I would vehemently oppose it being mandatory.

 

Would support corrected waypoints? Sure!

Edited by CoyoteRed
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I'd like to know FOR SURE to where I am pedaling.

There's your problem. You want a guaranteed find. I"d never demand to know a know is there before renting a boat or paddling 45 minutes to a cache. For me, that's part of the adventure. "Is it there?"

 

 

yeah, i like the adventure in that, too. a puzzle without a checker brings its own set of challenges.

 

and it's not that hard to force coordinates from a checker. i'm a contrary sort of person. if you tell me it's not possible to do a thing, i will make it sport to go do it. i've forced caches with less information than you can get with a checker; it's fun.

 

if you don't give me a checker, i have to solve the puzzle pretty much the way you intended.

 

i'm all for a built-in optional opt-in checker, though.

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You want a guaranteed find. I"d never demand to know a know is there before renting a boat or paddling 45 minutes to a cache. For me, that's part of the adventure. "Is it there?"

 

I only wish that having the correct coordinates would guarantee a find! I'd certainly like a guarantee for a CHANCE to find. It doesn't feel good doing a third of the Tour de France only to find out that the location to which I have ridden is a "red herring" - I don't even like fish.

 

To be fair, I really do need the exercise - all this bicycling is keeping me in shape for ballhockey with my son.

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I think the checker should be built-in and mandatory.

...

I'd like to know FOR SURE to where I am pedaling.

Might I suggest Waymarking? It is a good alternative to geocaching for people who don't like any unknowns.

 

Having the false coordinates replaced with the correct ones after a solution is found negates the need for any third-party tool or extra step to get the numbers into the GPSr

I agree that this feature would be extremely useful. But why would it need to be tied to a checker?

Edited by fizzymagic
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I'm with the bubbly magic guy. I would love to be able to put what I think are the correct coords on a page and have them replace the coords at the top of the page and get uploaded to my gps.

 

It would even be helpful for those times on a traditional cache that the placer has bad coordinates and someone mentions in a log the new coordinates.

 

Long ago I presented an idea to have a hidden log type that would be uploaded with your PQ that you could store coordinates and notes in that could only be seen by you, no one else. This was to allow you to put in coords for a multi you were partially finished with, final locations for puzzle caches or just a note as to why you wanted to find the cache.

 

So put me in the camp of those that would like to put my own coords in on a page but not force the checker.

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I will add my two cents worth in here.

 

An optional checker would be fine for the owner, just as an owner has the option to place a useful clue or not. Of course for the cacher the option to use the checker or not would always be present, just as looking at the hint or not. As a cacher sometime I use a checker sometimes not, it all depends on my available time and my desire for adventure or not.

 

I vote yes to optional checker.

 

Pete

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(1) I hate the funny feeling of solving a puzzle and just running off perhaps many many miles to log the cache. Both for time but also nature preservation I like to have certainty that my brain did it's job.

 

(2) Geochecker does the job well, provided the owner knows how to set it up and add the link to the listing

 

(3) At the end of the day it is probably up to the owner, if he accepts mails and contacts requesting confirmation or if he chooses for some kind of automation

 

In conclusion.

(i) I vote for supporting this feature within Geocaching.com

(ii) Setting it up shall be a (yes) (no) option in the listing, with mandatory selection, but no predefined selection.

Edited by Riepichiep
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I hate geocheckers. They're often used to work as a patch to an ill-defined puzzle.

A well-defined puzzle will allow you just as much information about the final cache location as the owner wants you to.

 

Adding coordinates to a cache would be a nice feature. I suggest the ability to add user-specific coordinates to the Additional Waypoints of a cache. That is, if I think I solved it, I can add my personal waypoint to the cache from the cache page, and then upload it to my GPS-r as needed. It will be only visible to me, of course.

 

A nice spin-off of this would be that the cache owner can see which additional waypoints have been added to his cache. From that, he can see if people are finding alternative or wrong solutions to his cache puzzle.

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Oh, dear! Most hiders are too stupid to know how to use Geochecker, so we should force it on them???

Do you know how bad that sounds?!?

A coord checker is a nicety that some people choose to use. There is no requirement for it. Forcing it on people to streamline your paperwork sounds a bit much to me.

I vote no!

 

I think this is actually a reason to have it built into the site. The site already knows the correct coordinates. When a user publishes a cache all they would have to do is check a box as to whether or not they want to enable the feature for their cache. Nothing complicated to learn at all.

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I too believe it should be on the cache page. Only because it is so hard to get some kind of confirmation on puzzles from the owners. Locally I could understand. But if you traveled and you find out you did it wrong you lose out till the next time you go back, that is if you do go back But I also believe the cache owner has a right not to use it.

Edited by jellis
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First of all: Not all mystery caches will give you exact locations. Project a waypoint, for example. Depends on where I was standing, and where the CO was standing, when projecting the waypoint. It should get you to within ten feet, using computer programs. (I can think of other types, as well.) Though, Geochecking will allow 'Correct! You are within 25 feet'.

And, it's fun to watch the brute force tactics at work. (Geochecking will allow me to see all of the guesses.) Obviously, cachers had problems with two of the eight answers needed. Geochecking shows a nice set of parallel lines. I think it took twenty-two guess for FTF. Limit of ten (?) guesses permitted per hour. Took him just over two hours... Another cache has 295 wrong guesses, and 1 correct one. Interesting to watch!

No. You cannot require a puzzle checker. There are puzzle caches for which it will not work.

And there is no requirement that cache owners confirm your answer. I see no reason to require it now.

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At the risk of being flogged, I'll mention that third-party tools (**cough, cough...GSAK**)

However not all of us are rocket scientists!

 

Nor am I. The beauty of GSAK is it is powerful enough to do almost anything you want but simple enough to handle the basics. Want to record your corrected coordinates? Right-click the cache and select "Corrected Coordinates". Now when you send the cache to your GPSr you get the solved coordinates.

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