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Hide the find counts.


GOF and Bacall

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i'm really sorry if the way you use the site depends on me and some others having our numbers available so you can be lord and master over us. it'd be really tragic if your enjoyment of the game was crushed because you can't make yourself look all big and mighty against us.

 

All things are possible.. That doesn't mean all things are advisable. If you want to change the site, which will affect everyone, then the responsibility falls on you to show why it is necessary to make a change that really does nothing positive for the site, except maybe make a few people feel less afraid.. I don't think the programmers are real interested in building a night light for you folks.. They've got better things to do.

 

i've just had a look at your find count and decided that you're inconsequential.

 

all further ideas expressed by you will be forwarded to a deputy in charge of... oh, nevermind. i have nobody on staff to deal with gum on the bottoms of my shoes.

 

I haven't looked at your find count, but judging by your logic, I would have to assume you've been caching instead of thinking.

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I suspect that most have never thought of it.

 

Is there a good reason why some of us should not be allowed to hide our count?

 

Public statistics can and do serve a function other than the pride (in my numbers) game. I use them to evaluate information in logs. If someone with a lot of finds says they suspect something is awry, as an owner or seeker, I generally value that info more when deciding how urgently I need to check on my cache or whether I spend the time looking for something that may no longer be there. In that respect a public DNF count may be helpful in this process too.

 

On a separate not contradictory, but related, to original post. I think it would be good to have hidden caches reported more accurately by separating them from owned caches in the stats, both stat bar and profile tab. Owning an active cache differs from hiding a cache, due to archiving and adopting. For example, my stat bar shows 12 hidden caches, which is actually just the number of active caches I own/manage. It does not count the caches I have hidden and archived or given up for adoption. This information could be useful to discrimant cachers; those looking for quality hides might want to look for owners with certain hide characteristics/statistics.

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i'm really sorry if the way you use the site depends on me and some others having our numbers available so you can be lord and master over us. it'd be really tragic if your enjoyment of the game was crushed because you can't make yourself look all big and mighty against us.

 

All things are possible.. That doesn't mean all things are advisable. If you want to change the site, which will affect everyone, then the responsibility falls on you to show why it is necessary to make a change that really does nothing positive for the site, except maybe make a few people feel less afraid.. I don't think the programmers are real interested in building a night light for you folks.. They've got better things to do.

Really? Are we only allowed "necessary" changes?

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i'm really sorry if the way you use the site depends on me and some others having our numbers available so you can be lord and master over us. it'd be really tragic if your enjoyment of the game was crushed because you can't make yourself look all big and mighty against us.

 

All things are possible.. That doesn't mean all things are advisable. If you want to change the site, which will affect everyone, then the responsibility falls on you to show why it is necessary to make a change that really does nothing positive for the site, except maybe make a few people feel less afraid.. I don't think the programmers are real interested in building a night light for you folks.. They've got better things to do.

Really? Are we only allowed "necessary" changes?

Of course not. However, before making a change, it is wise to see how it would affect all users. If the change negatively affects some users, then the requested change must be evaluated to determine whether it's overall benefit outweighs it's negative impact.

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All things are possible.. That doesn't mean all things are advisable. If you want to change the site, which will affect everyone, then the responsibility falls on you to show why it is necessary to make a change that really does nothing positive for the site, except maybe make a few people feel less afraid.. I don't think the programmers are real interested in building a night light for you folks.. They've got better things to do.

Really? Are we only allowed "necessary" changes?

Of course not. However, before making a change, it is wise to see how it would affect all users. If the change negatively affects some users, then the requested change must be evaluated to determine whether it's overall benefit outweighs it's negative impact.

 

So far the negative effect appears to be that, if they can't see a find count, cache owners can't judge a finder's status. This is especially important when judging whether a DNF is to be taken seriously or not if the finder has only x number of finds. Did I miss any other negative effect?

 

The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.

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......

So far the negative effect appears to be that, if they can't see a find count, cache owners can't judge a finder's status. This is especially important when judging whether a DNF is to be taken seriously or not if the finder has only x number of finds. Did I miss any other negative effect?

 

The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.

 

In all seriousness - what is your reasonable expectation that the "hopeful positive outcome" will actually occur?? --- based on what??

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So far the negative effect appears to be that, if they can't see a find count, cache owners can't judge a finder's status. This is especially important when judging whether a DNF is to be taken seriously or not if the finder has only x number of finds. Did I miss any other negative effect?

 

The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.

 

A change, positive or negative, is still a change from the norm that would require planning and lots of testing to ensure that the change would not affect other areas of the site. Especially, whether you agree or not, functionality that has been present since the outset.

 

It's not the responsiblity of the "nay-sayers" to argue that it shouldn't be changed.. It is the responsibility of those that want the change to justify the amount of work that would be required to make the change.

 

It's my opinion that there has not been any strong rationale to justify the time and money required to make such a change.

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......

So far the negative effect appears to be that, if they can't see a find count, cache owners can't judge a finder's status. This is especially important when judging whether a DNF is to be taken seriously or not if the finder has only x number of finds. Did I miss any other negative effect?

 

The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.

 

In all seriousness - what is your reasonable expectation that the "hopeful positive outcome" will actually occur?? --- based on what??

 

Can't know until you try.

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It's not the responsiblity of the "nay-sayers" to argue that it shouldn't be changed.. It is the responsibility of those that want the change to justify the amount of work that would be required to make the change.

 

It's my opinion that there has not been any strong rationale to justify the time and money required to make such a change.

 

OpinioNate has already said it isn't a lot of work to implement.

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The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.
I fail to see the connection between being able to see your find count and some third party hiding better geocaches.

 

I have a right to privacy i want that extending to my profile on geocaching.com please, just like all the social networking sites allow you to do.
The courts have found that this so-called 'Right to Privacy' is not absolute. Further, when you signed up with GC.com, it was with the understanding that your finds would be visible to all. You've lived with this transparency for seven years. To suggest that it should now be taken away to protect your privacy seems a touch disingenuous.
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It's not the responsiblity of the "nay-sayers" to argue that it shouldn't be changed.. It is the responsibility of those that want the change to justify the amount of work that would be required to make the change.

 

It's my opinion that there has not been any strong rationale to justify the time and money required to make such a change.

 

OpinioNate has already said it isn't a lot of work to implement.

 

Maybe to hide *all* find counts in the logs regardless of person. In order to hide only the find counts of those that "opt-in" would require a new table in the database to track who wants the find counts displayed and who doesn't and then the query would need to be changed to join the new table. Sounds like more work than I would want to do.

 

It would be easy to just hide them all from displaying to *you*, but it's a whole different game when you are dictating that you don't want your find counts displayed to others.

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I have a right to privacy i want that extending to my profile on geocaching.com please, just like all the social networking sites allow you to do.

A little clarification please. You're asking for an option to hide your find count, but went to the trouble to proudly advertise how many caches are on your Ignore list??? :antenna:

 

"From: 400 plus caches on my Ignore list an you beat that ?"

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if you can't tell if my spiffy bomb-under-a-bridge cache is going to be any good without knowing the size of my find count/bank balance/SUV/genitalia, you should return to your village because they're missing their idiot.

It's a shame the "!Report" button is broken.

 

I wonder if the failure of the Report This Post function might explain the recent surge in abusive personal insults in these forums?

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The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.
I fail to see the connection between being able to see your find count and some third party hiding better geocaches.

 

I have a right to privacy i want that extending to my profile on geocaching.com please, just like all the social networking sites allow you to do.
The courts have found that this so-called 'Right to Privacy' is not absolute. Further, when you signed up with GC.com, it was with the understanding that your finds would be visible to all. You've lived with this transparency for seven years. To suggest that it should now be taken away to protect your privacy seems a touch disingenuous.

American courts i presume ?

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The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.
I fail to see the connection between being able to see your find count and some third party hiding better geocaches.

 

I have a right to privacy i want that extending to my profile on geocaching.com please, just like all the social networking sites allow you to do.
The courts have found that this so-called 'Right to Privacy' is not absolute. Further, when you signed up with GC.com, it was with the understanding that your finds would be visible to all. You've lived with this transparency for seven years. To suggest that it should now be taken away to protect your privacy seems a touch disingenuous.

American courts i presume ?

UK, also.

 

(Kind of a strange question since there is much greater 'freedom of privacy' in the US than the UK.)

 

It should also be noted that the right to privacy can be freely given away by an individual. That is important to consider since you agreed to have your find count available to all when you signed up seven years ago. Of course, since this doesn't involve any protected information, any 'right to privacy' doesn't apply.

Edited by sbell111
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I have a right to privacy i want that extending to my profile on geocaching.com please, just like all the social networking sites allow you to do.

A little clarification please. You're asking for an option to hide your find count, but went to the trouble to proudly advertise how many caches are on your Ignore list??? :antenna:

 

"From: 400 plus caches on my Ignore list an you beat that ?"

 

Ive also found 10 5/5 caches as well these are things i want to make public. I drive a VW golf estate 2litre diesel again i dont have a problem disclosing data i want to disclose, but you can go see my profile page (i did a lot of work on it do you like it ??) and see any stat you want, you can go find my most recent logs on caches if you want, you can see pictures of me and my family if you want, at present unlike the social networking sites i can not make that information private or on an invite basis only.

 

Just asking for web 2.0 functionality.

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The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.
I fail to see the connection between being able to see your find count and some third party hiding better geocaches.

 

I have a right to privacy i want that extending to my profile on geocaching.com please, just like all the social networking sites allow you to do.
The courts have found that this so-called 'Right to Privacy' is not absolute. Further, when you signed up with GC.com, it was with the understanding that your finds would be visible to all. You've lived with this transparency for seven years. To suggest that it should now be taken away to protect your privacy seems a touch disingenuous.

American courts i presume ?

UK, also.

Really ?

 

So because it the way its always been is a reason not to change anything ? on that basis nothing gets changed ever.

 

As i said all the social networking sites and other sites where you have a profile page allow you to make it private so should Groundspeak.

 

in these days of identity theft and other unmentionables an extra layer of security on personal information is surely a good idea and possible the right of any individual who wants to benefit from the full functionality of the site.

 

i know of several cachers who do not log finds or anything else on this site due to privacy fears

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The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.
I fail to see the connection between being able to see your find count and some third party hiding better geocaches.

 

I have a right to privacy i want that extending to my profile on geocaching.com please, just like all the social networking sites allow you to do.
The courts have found that this so-called 'Right to Privacy' is not absolute. Further, when you signed up with GC.com, it was with the understanding that your finds would be visible to all. You've lived with this transparency for seven years. To suggest that it should now be taken away to protect your privacy seems a touch disingenuous.

American courts i presume ?

UK, also.

 

(Kind of a strange question since there is much greater 'freedom of privacy' in the US than the UK.)

 

It should also be noted that the right to privacy can be freely given away by an individual. That is important to consider since you agreed to have your find count available to all when you signed up seven years ago. Of course, since this doesn't involve any protected information, any 'right to privacy' doesn't apply.

 

Thanks for the edit

 

7 years ago identity theft was not the issue it is today, nor were internet predators.

 

in 7 years things change this is one of them that should

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So because it the way its always been is a reason not to change anything ? on that basis nothing gets changed ever.
You are altering your position. MY response was to your 'right to privacy' argument. I addressed this current argument in previous posts.
As i said all the social networking sites and other sites where you have a profile page allow you to make it private so should Groundspeak.
TPTB allow you to keep all information that could be used to identify you as private as you wish. All you have to do is not give out info that would identify you. Don't but up any pictures. Pick a 'handle' that doesn't use identifying information (such as your names).
in these days of identity theft and other unmentionables an extra layer of security on personal information is surely a good idea and possible the right of any individual who wants to benefit from the full functionality of the site.
Please explain how a miscreant would use your find count to steal your identity.
i know of several cachers who do not log finds or anything else on this site due to privacy fears
Many people won't even go online due to privacy fears. Some won't even leave their homes.

 

Go figure.

7 years ago identity theft was not the issue it is today, nor were internet predators.

 

in 7 years things change this is one of them that should

Please explain how this internet predator would use your find count to do you harm?
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It's not the responsiblity of the "nay-sayers" to argue that it shouldn't be changed.. It is the responsibility of those that want the change to justify the amount of work that would be required to make the change.

 

It's my opinion that there has not been any strong rationale to justify the time and money required to make such a change.

There are two reasons not to make a change. One is that it would take too many resources, the other is that it would affect other users too adversely. The first has been addressed. If it cannot be shown that anyone would be negatively affected, then the second point is moot. So yes, it is on the "naysayers" to show that this change should not be made.

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......

So far the negative effect appears to be that, if they can't see a find count, cache owners can't judge a finder's status. This is especially important when judging whether a DNF is to be taken seriously or not if the finder has only x number of finds. Did I miss any other negative effect?

 

The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.

 

In all seriousness - what is your reasonable expectation that the "hopeful positive outcome" will actually occur?? --- based on what??

 

Can't know until you try.

So lets make random changes in the site and see which improve the quality of the game (in Lone R's opinion) and which don't?

 

It seems to me that people who want to hide their find counts want to do so as form of protest against what they believe are the negative effects of numbers driven caching on the game. Cachers who enjoy finding a "record" number of caches in a day or whatever other goal they choose, will continue to do some whether or not their number is displayed and certainly whether or not someone else's numbers are displayed. The so-called numbers cachers are well aware that some people look down on anyone who makes a big deal of their find count. The fact that some of these people would hide their find count if they could would do nothing to change behavior of those who are "driven" by the numbers. And there are plenty of people who would not be considered numbers cachers who still like to see their find counts. Either as personal way to track their geocaching experience or as a rough way to determine the level of experience of another cacher when evaluating their logs. These people would be affected in some manner if find counts were hidden.

 

The argument by some that this is a privacy issue seems far fetched. Unless you are going to allow people to hide online logs altogether, anyone can look and see what caches you have found. You might make it more difficult but someone will likely find a way to get find counts out of the data that is still visible. My guess is that the solution Nate says wouldn't be hard to implement would still let you find out someone's find count by looking at their profile or searching for caches found by that user. What is it that you are trying to keep secret? The find count is simply a count of the number of Found It, Attended, and Webcam Photo Taken logs you have entered. Perhaps a better number would include all the logs that you have entered, including DNFs, notes, SBAs, Need Maintenance, etc. Then we could still see how much "experience" a poster has but not be so focused on the number of caches found. In any case you have signed up to use Geocaching.com to post online about your experiences geocaching. Part of this information is that anyone can see how many logs you have entered and in particular how many "Found It", "Attended", and "Webcam Photo Taken" logs you have entered. Why anyone would think this is some private information that they should be allow to hide is beyond me. Sure some social networking sites let you limit certain posts to friends. There may be some features that could be added to Geocaching.com that are appropriate to limit to friends. There are already some features (private bookmark lists) that can be made private. There doesn't seem to be a good reason to make find counts private other than some people would "feel better" if their count was hidden.

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It's not the responsiblity of the "nay-sayers" to argue that it shouldn't be changed.. It is the responsibility of those that want the change to justify the amount of work that would be required to make the change.

 

It's my opinion that there has not been any strong rationale to justify the time and money required to make such a change.

There are two reasons not to make a change. One is that it would take too many resources, the other is that it would affect other users too adversely. The first has been addressed. If it cannot be shown that anyone would be negatively affected, then the second point is moot. So yes, it is on the "naysayers" to show that this change should not be made.

You logic seems broken, to me.

 

If we were to follow this logic, TPTB should make any requested change unless those who oppose it are able to craft a sufficient argument to convince the change requesters to rescind their change request.

 

That can't be the optimal solution. A better plan is for those who want a change to prove that it is in the best interest of all.

Edited by sbell111
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I have a right to privacy i want that extending to my profile on geocaching.com please, just like all the social networking sites allow you to do.

A little clarification please. You're asking for an option to hide your find count, but went to the trouble to proudly advertise how many caches are on your Ignore list??? :antenna:

 

"From: 400 plus caches on my Ignore list an you beat that ?"

 

Ive also found 10 5/5 caches as well these are things i want to make public. I drive a VW golf estate 2litre diesel again i dont have a problem disclosing data i want to disclose, but you can go see my profile page (i did a lot of work on it do you like it ??) and see any stat you want, you can go find my most recent logs on caches if you want, you can see pictures of me and my family if you want, at present unlike the social networking sites i can not make that information private or on an invite basis only.

 

Just asking for web 2.0 functionality.

I just think it is so funny when people say they want their stats private, but post more stats than you can shake a stick at. It took me 14 clicks to make it to the bottom of your profile. To me, the appearance is that you don't want your information hidden or you would not go to such great lengths to spew it all out. If you want to make a point, remove it all and simply post "I would prefer to have the option to hide all of my personal information from everyone except for certain people." Move all of that over to a private web site and only give people you want to see it the URL. Then, maybe, your request would actually carry some weight as your actions would match up with your request.

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It's not the responsiblity of the "nay-sayers" to argue that it shouldn't be changed.. It is the responsibility of those that want the change to justify the amount of work that would be required to make the change.

 

It's my opinion that there has not been any strong rationale to justify the time and money required to make such a change.

There are two reasons not to make a change. One is that it would take too many resources, the other is that it would affect other users too adversely. The first has been addressed. If it cannot be shown that anyone would be negatively affected, then the second point is moot. So yes, it is on the "naysayers" to show that this change should not be made.

You logic seems broken, to me.

 

If we were to follow this logic, TPTB should make any requested change unless those who oppose it are able to craft a sufficient argument to convince the change requesters to rescind their change request.

 

That can't be the optimal solution. A better plan is for those who want a change to prove that it is in the best interest of all.

I think that's exactly the right solution. But you're forgetting the first condition: TPTB have to decide it's worthwhile. Most user requests will wash out there.

Edited by Dinoprophet
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If this does happen, and people get the option to hide their stats, I hope that ALL stats of ALL other players are hidden from them.

 

 

i'm toasty with that. i don't particularly care to see other people's find counts, either, although i suspect that if i look at their profiles, i'll have to see them anyway.

 

it only makes sense that if i prefer not to be an object of comparison with other people's find counts, that i would not wish to make them the object of my comparison.

 

the reason i only want tot be able to hide my find counts is that some people would wear theirs on their foreheads if they thought they could get away with it. they like showing off their huge and impressive numbers and there's no reason they shouldn't except that i'm really not interested to see. hiding both my count from everybody but me and hiding their counts from me excuses me neatly from having to be part of that conversation.

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If this does happen, and people get the option to hide their stats, I hope that ALL stats of ALL other players are hidden from them.

 

If you hide your stats from the world why would you expect to be able to see anyone else's?

That's fine, but assuming you could turn the option on and off at will, it would be easily defeated.

 

 

Incidentally, I have no idea whether I would use the feature or not. I'm perversely proud of having an unusually low count for 7.5 years.

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If this does happen, and people get the option to hide their stats, I hope that ALL stats of ALL other players are hidden from them.

 

If you hide your stats from the world why would you expect to be able to see anyone else's?

That's fine, but assuming you could turn the option on and off at will, it would be easily defeated.

Why not make it like the "My Finds" query...changes only allowed once per week? Just a thought (although sock puppets find a way of defeating many things).

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the reason i only want tot be able to hide my find counts is that some people would wear theirs on their foreheads if they thought they could get away with it. they like showing off their huge and impressive numbers and there's no reason they shouldn't except that i'm really not interested to see. hiding both my count from everybody but me and hiding their counts from me excuses me neatly from having to be part of that conversation.

 

I don't know what experience you have had that created this feeling in you, but...wow.

 

Hiding your Finds will do nothing for those who "would wear theirs on their foreheads". Hiding your Finds means they will still "like showing off huge and impressive numbers". After all, if I were one of those people I wouldn't care less about your Finds, it's all about mine, mine, mine.

 

Hiding your Find count will not neatly exclude you from having to be a part of that conversation. The conversation will continue. People will continue to ask how many caches you have found, heck, they may even ask more because they won't be able to tell for themselves.

 

I've dealt with some real number whores -- the type you talk about. They seemed to find it strange that others did not bow down at their feet and erect monuments to them as the greatest cachers who ever lived. Being able to hide MY found count from them would not have changed them one bit.

 

I think you really need to ask yourself whether the solution you are proposing will address the problem you are having.

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Late comer to this. I wouldn't mind hiding my find count. The caches I find are my business. I want to keep track of them, because I occasionally check back on previous memorable finds, especially if they are DNF's.

 

But the lawnmowing/HOA analogy doesn't quite fit. If the neighbors want to race lawnmowers or something, that's fine. But a more accurate analogy would be if your lawnmowing times automatically got posted on little signs over your mailbox. Whether you were part of the game or not. Personally, I'd want to tear the sign down. My neighbors would be free to keep theirs, however.

 

But you could say that you can't compete mowing different lawns because no two are the same, what with soil conditions, landscaping, terrain, and even the homeowner's choice of lawnmower. But some people will compete no matter what (lawnmower racing really happens).

 

I just would rather not have that sign over my mailbox. If someone wants to keep track for me, they can stand on the sidewalk with a stopwatch, but I don't want a score that really isn't a score broadcast all over. I don't care if my finds show up on my profile or not. In fact, it'd be nice to choose to only put memorable finds on my public profile. Privately, I'd like to see all logs of all types, but I don't need a tally. But a little statement, "This cacher chooses not to share finds" in place of a list or tally of the caches I've found would be just fine.

 

If people want to make judgments on that, fine. But judgments based on not posting finds would be even more ridiculous than judgments based on how many caches you've found or not.

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Late comer to this. I wouldn't mind hiding my find count. The caches I find are my business. I want to keep track of them, because I occasionally check back on previous memorable finds, especially if they are DNF's.

 

But the lawnmowing/HOA analogy doesn't quite fit. If the neighbors want to race lawnmowers or something, that's fine. But a more accurate analogy would be if your lawnmowing times automatically got posted on little signs over your mailbox. Whether you were part of the game or not. Personally, I'd want to tear the sign down. My neighbors would be free to keep theirs, however.

 

But you could say that you can't compete mowing different lawns because no two are the same, what with soil conditions, landscaping, terrain, and even the homeowner's choice of lawnmower. But some people will compete no matter what (lawnmower racing really happens).

 

I just would rather not have that sign over my mailbox. ...

One wonders why you moved into that neighborhood knowing that your time would be posted over your mailbax.
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I've had a lot of varying opinions about this over the years. I've come to the conclusion that if a feature helps the site by feeding the obsession and it is true to "their game," then it is a good thing for business then it will stay. So I seriously doubt they will get rid of the find count.

Edited by TrailGators
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The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.
I fail to see the connection between being able to see your find count and some third party hiding better geocaches.

 

I have a right to privacy i want that extending to my profile on geocaching.com please, just like all the social networking sites allow you to do.
The courts have found that this so-called 'Right to Privacy' is not absolute. Further, when you signed up with GC.com, it was with the understanding that your finds would be visible to all. You've lived with this transparency for seven years. To suggest that it should now be taken away to protect your privacy seems a touch disingenuous.

American courts i presume ?

 

Interesting that you should bring up privacy laws because Canada has a beef about privacy with Facebook

 

Privacy Commissioner of Canada satisfied that proposed changes to the social networking site’s privacy practices and policies would bring Facebook into compliance with Canadian law

 

So yes, there are different privacy laws and privacy is an issue. Even Facebook with it's privacy settings ultimately fails in providing enough privacy, to meet the laws beyond the US.

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Hiding your Find count will not neatly exclude you from having to be a part of that conversation.

 

yes, it will. they'll continue to have the conversation, but i won't be there to take part AND i get the added bonus that if they want to include me as a subject, they'll have to count my finds manually. they'll be too lazy, i'll wager.

 

to people who see me as the aggregate total of my numbers, i will be INVISIBLE! muahahahahaha!

 

if i run into these bozos on the trail (which i'm fairly adept at avoiding) when they ask me how many finds i have, i admit to having found "some" and then icily indicate that it's not a contest. if i can, i don't ever tell them my name. if for some reason i have already given my name and my find count is hidden, if they look it up when they get home, it will be too late! i will already be gone!

 

hiding my find count simply gives me another tool toward the end of not being in other people's numbers races.

 

some people venture the idea that it would be a punishment to me if as collateral i wouldn't be allowed to see other people's numbers either.

 

nope, i'm good with it. i actually don't care about the find counts.

 

i am, however, much irritated by people who insist on including me in their number contests. i wouldn't care if they kept it to themselves, but they don't.

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Why not make it like the "My Finds" query...changes only allowed once per week? Just a thought (although sock puppets find a way of defeating many things).

 

You are adding to the technical difficulty. Now the database needs to keep track of when the last time you changed your settings.

 

Bottom line, the ends (which have not been argued very well) do not justify the means. I really don't think there are many folks out there that really care (i'm sure TPTB are aware of this fact as well). Why would TPTB spend time to "REMOVE" functionality from the site... On a per-user basis no less..

 

In software development, it's never a good idea to remove functionality... I would only do that as a last resort. You will almost always upset more people by removing the functionality than you would serve.

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Why not make it like the "My Finds" query...changes only allowed once per week? Just a thought (although sock puppets find a way of defeating many things).

 

You are adding to the technical difficulty. Now the database needs to keep track of when the last time you changed your settings.

Agreed. This is like sabotaging a bill by adding unpopular amendments.

 

Bottom line, the ends (which have not been argued very well) do not justify the means. I really don't think there are many folks out there that really care (i'm sure TPTB are aware of this fact as well). Why would TPTB spend time to "REMOVE" functionality from the site... On a per-user basis no less..

 

In software development, it's never a good idea to remove functionality... I would only do that as a last resort. You will almost always upset more people by removing the functionality than you would serve.

It's not removing functionality. The counts are still available to those who want it, for no extra effort. Those who want it are getting new functionality. It's something they want to do but can't.

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Why not make it like the "My Finds" query...changes only allowed once per week? Just a thought (although sock puppets find a way of defeating many things).

 

You are adding to the technical difficulty. Now the database needs to keep track of when the last time you changed your settings.

Agreed. This is like sabotaging a bill by adding unpopular amendments.

 

Bottom line, the ends (which have not been argued very well) do not justify the means. I really don't think there are many folks out there that really care (i'm sure TPTB are aware of this fact as well). Why would TPTB spend time to "REMOVE" functionality from the site... On a per-user basis no less..

 

In software development, it's never a good idea to remove functionality... I would only do that as a last resort. You will almost always upset more people by removing the functionality than you would serve.

It's not removing functionality. The counts are still available to those who want it, for no extra effort. Those who want it are getting new functionality. It's something they want to do but can't.

This is such a silly thing to say. If I want to know your find count and you hide it from me then you have taken away functionality from my perspective. I would need to expende extra effort to go to your profile and count your finds. Right now you can post a note and keep track of your finds with no extra effort on your part, so you are wrong to claim this is something people want to do but can't.

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This is such a silly thing to say. If I want to know your find count and you hide it from me then you have taken away functionality from my perspective. I would need to expende extra effort to go to your profile and count your finds. Right now you can post a note and keep track of your finds with no extra effort on your part, so you are wrong to claim this is something people want to do but can't.

 

so your functionality depends on being able to measure yourself up against me?

 

huh.

 

granted, i have the opportunity to just post notes for caches when i find them, but that helps me not one bit with my PQ, nor does it help me when i want to look at MY lovely little numbers.

 

i LOVE my numbers. i just don't care about yours, don't want to know yours, don't want to use yours, don't want you to use mine.

 

if the ability to use MY numbers has anything to do with your idea of site functionality, you deserve to have functionality taken away.

 

and not just in viewing my numbers.

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So far the negative effect appears to be that, if they can't see a find count, cache owners can't judge a finder's status. This is especially important when judging whether a DNF is to be taken seriously or not if the finder has only x number of finds. Did I miss any other negative effect?

 

The hopeful positive outcome is hidden finds will encourage people to make the game more about quality then quantity.

 

A change, positive or negative, is still a change from the norm that would require planning and lots of testing to ensure that the change would not affect other areas of the site. Especially, whether you agree or not, functionality that has been present since the outset.

 

It's not the responsiblity of the "nay-sayers" to argue that it shouldn't be changed.. It is the responsibility of those that want the change to justify the amount of work that would be required to make the change.

 

It's my opinion that there has not been any strong rationale to justify the time and money required to make such a change.

Are we supposed to justify it to you, or TPTB? It seems to me that some are judging it based on personal preference or selfish motives. It it isn't something they want, then it must be less than worthwhile. :antenna: They just don't want any resources used on anything except their own pet projects. I wonder how many cache owners run out and check the cache the first time someone posts a dnf. I assume that most wait for a trend to develop before checking. I just don't think many people see one dnf and check how many finds the cacher has and if they are a high number cacher they run right out and check on the cache. I think the cacher's start date would give enough info for the majority of circumstances where reliability of a dnf is in question. Maybe someone can point to some cache logs that show many multiple cases where the CO posted a maintenance check after one dnf on multiple occasions. On top of that, how many people will opt out and not show numbers? Of those, how many will be the crucial dnf that you need to use to determine if the cache needs to be checked? On those occasions you could email the cacher and ask them for more info. You could just ignore dnf logs of cachers without find counts displayed. You could just check their start date. The few that change their account name and also opt out and also log that crucial dnf would be rare indeed and not worth considering. Like the idea or not, it is simply personal preference. I don't think you can really make a case that it will cause problems overall.

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So lets make random changes in the site and see which improve the quality of the game (in Lone R's opinion) and which don't?

:antenna::antenna: Do you think this thread was started because someone spun "the wheel of site changes" and "opt out of find counts" came up? Hey that sounds like a good random change to try this month, lets post on the forum and see what everyone thinks. :antenna:

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If this does happen, and people get the option to hide their stats, I hope that ALL stats of ALL other players are hidden from them.

 

If you hide your stats from the world why would you expect to be able to see anyone else's?

Expect? I think you are making a rather large jump there. I for one could care less if I can see others numbers.

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It's not the responsiblity of the "nay-sayers" to argue that it shouldn't be changed.. It is the responsibility of those that want the change to justify the amount of work that would be required to make the change.

 

It's my opinion that there has not been any strong rationale to justify the time and money required to make such a change.

There are two reasons not to make a change. One is that it would take too many resources, the other is that it would affect other users too adversely. The first has been addressed. If it cannot be shown that anyone would be negatively affected, then the second point is moot. So yes, it is on the "naysayers" to show that this change should not be made.

You logic seems broken, to me.

 

If we were to follow this logic, TPTB should make any requested change unless those who oppose it are able to craft a sufficient argument to convince the change requesters to rescind their change request.

 

That can't be the optimal solution. A better plan is for those who want a change to prove that it is in the best interest of all.

I think it works more like, TPTB make the changes when they are convinced it is a good idea.

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Why not make it like the "My Finds" query...changes only allowed once per week? Just a thought (although sock puppets find a way of defeating many things).

 

You are adding to the technical difficulty. Now the database needs to keep track of when the last time you changed your settings.

Agreed. This is like sabotaging a bill by adding unpopular amendments.

 

Bottom line, the ends (which have not been argued very well) do not justify the means. I really don't think there are many folks out there that really care (i'm sure TPTB are aware of this fact as well). Why would TPTB spend time to "REMOVE" functionality from the site... On a per-user basis no less..

 

In software development, it's never a good idea to remove functionality... I would only do that as a last resort. You will almost always upset more people by removing the functionality than you would serve.

It's not removing functionality. The counts are still available to those who want it, for no extra effort. Those who want it are getting new functionality. It's something they want to do but can't.

This is such a silly thing to say. If I want to know your find count and you hide it from me then you have taken away functionality from my perspective. I would need to expende extra effort to go to your profile and count your finds. Right now you can post a note and keep track of your finds with no extra effort on your part, so you are wrong to claim this is something people want to do but can't.

But there is extra effort in tracking my finds myself!

 

There's a fundamental disagreement here on what parts of my profile you are entitled to access. I don't feel that because you can see someone's find count today means that you have some right to it. I consider that part of my profile, not your toolset.

 

There is precedent for this functionality, by the way. I can decide to change a bookmark list that you find useful to private without warning. I can change a non-PM cache to a PM. I can change my email address to private. In fact, it seems my find count is the only thing I can't hide.

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In fact, it seems my find count is the only thing I can't hide.
Actually, there are two options:

1) You could log everything as a note and then ignore your found caches to get them out of your PQs.

2) You could quit logging online and then ignore your found caches to get them out of your PQs.

 

I do Option #2 for caches that I don't enjoy.

Edited by TrailGators
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In fact, it seems my find count is the only thing I can't hide.
Actually, there are two options:

1) You could log everything as a note and then ignore your found caches to get them out of your PQs.

2) You could quit logging online and then ignore your found caches to get them out of your PQs.

 

I do Option #2 for caches that I don't enjoy.

And the My Finds PQ? I use that more than any other PQ. I also frequently look at just my Found logs in my profile -- for reminiscence, for answering questions in the forums.

 

I still, by the way, have seen only one stated reason to be able to always see someone's find count, which is to help assess DNFs. It seems to me unlikely that a newbie would use this feature -- even less likely if it were a PM feature. And again, I don't think anyone here will disagree that the number isn't a reliable gauge of anything anyway.

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This is such a silly thing to say. If I want to know your find count and you hide it from me then you have taken away functionality from my perspective. I would need to expende extra effort to go to your profile and count your finds. Right now you can post a note and keep track of your finds with no extra effort on your part, so you are wrong to claim this is something people want to do but can't.

 

so your functionality depends on being able to measure yourself up against me?

 

huh.

 

granted, i have the opportunity to just post notes for caches when i find them, but that helps me not one bit with my PQ, nor does it help me when i want to look at MY lovely little numbers.

 

i LOVE my numbers. i just don't care about yours, don't want to know yours, don't want to use yours, don't want you to use mine.

 

if the ability to use MY numbers has anything to do with your idea of site functionality, you deserve to have functionality taken away.

 

and not just in viewing my numbers.

Trust me flask, I do not measure myself up against you in any way nor do I care to. And that has nothing to do with my statement.

 

Once again your corrosive statements and comments when responding to many posters in these forums have become overly tiresome. I really do not understand why you are continued to be allowed to post the way you do. You have many good ideas and comments. Why is it you can't seem to keep your ideas and comments focused on the topic at hand rather than trying to belittle and degrade others?

 

I enjoy the numbers. I do not find myself competing with others. If others are competing with me I am fine with that as it really does not affect me. If the choice to hide find counts became available I would not use it. I would not begrudge anyone who did choose to use it. I still do not understand the obvious strong desire that some have for this change. But we are all entiltled to our opinions.

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some people would wear theirs on their foreheads if they thought they could get away with it

Aw, you want me to throw away my propeller beanie that powers the LCD display on my cap?

 

OK, piling on (and saying a lot of things that others have said, but maybe a bit differently)

 

When you do exactly what someone tells you to do, when you play their game even though you don't want to, then they are controlling your life.

 

When you do exactly the opposite of what someone tells you to do, they are controlling your life just as surely.

 

If you want to get off the merry-go-round, you have to get off. Running in the opposite direction doesn't hack it.

 

Find counts? Not very useful. Access to list of finds? Very interesting in many ways. I can look up flask or chaosmanor and read lots of interesting stories. If someone logs a snarky comment, I can figure out if they're just having a bad day. When someone logs a cache that I find interesting, I figure they may be interested in caches that I'm interested in, so I may go and look at what they've found.

 

And as repeatedly pointed out, you can't really hide find counts unless you hide the find list entirely.

 

People who would compare your find count with theirs, if they can't see yours, they will ask you. I'm not even going to say these people are rude, they're just playing the game differently. (If you say you're not interested and they press you anyway, THEN they are being rude.)

 

A few days ago I talked with a friend who has found well over ten times as many caches as I have. He recently found more in one day than I've ever found in three months. Neither of us cared about the numbers -- we enjoyed swapping stories.

 

I've never attended an event. But if I did and I found out that everyone was talking about find counts, I'd probably not return. (Now if they were talking about terrain average ...) OTOH, if I found one or two people with interests similar to mine and enjoyed a couple of hours of conversation in a corner, I'd be happy. That's as good as I expect from any crowd anywhere anyway.

 

Despite Nate's saying it would be easy, that doesn't tell the whole story. In a system this large (which is not really very large) and with the high availability requirements this site has (which are moderate to high), ANY change requires careful management. You have to analyze all the possible effects. You have to document the change for future programmers. You have to test ALL possibly combinations -- and having done so you have to add those test cases for future testing, because future changes can break even simple features. "But I only changed a couple of lines of code" is a grim old programmer's joke. It's not a huge change but it DOES consume resources that could be used elsewhere -- and because it adds another thing to be tested on every release, it adds to ongoing resource consumption.

 

Also, if you really want the find count totally hidden, you have to get into hiding the find list in the profile, suppressing notification emails, etc. How many hooks does it get into?

 

The only situation where I've seen a really good case for hiding is a woman who stopped logging finds because an ex was using them to stalk her. And doing something about that (while allowing find logs) would require the much stronger hiding.

 

I do wish I could let others browse my DNF and note logs. Optional, since others have assumed for a long time that notes are not browsable from the profile. But I wouldn't care about the numbers.

 

Edward

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I enjoy the numbers. I do not find myself competing with others. If others are competing with me I am fine with that as it really does not affect me. If the choice to hide find counts became available I would not use it. I would not begrudge anyone who did choose to use it. I still do not understand the obvious strong desire that some have for this change. But we are all entiltled to our opinions.

Some people are comfortable at a nudist colony, some are not. Are you able to understand that concept? Some are comfortable letting it all hang out, others want privacy. All you really need to understand is the idea that some people want to opt out of any part of the game that includes them (even passively) in the numbers competition. To each their own. :P

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