When to delete a log "Promise"

[Lemonhead]

How much time should be given to a cacher to return to a cache and sign the log when originally they "didn't have a pen to sign the log book". It asks the question, "Was he really there?" And if you delete their log, does that reflect the cachers total finds? I have a post iv'e been sitting on for over a year and thinking of deleting it. It's a difficult cache to get to, so thats why I've been waiting.

[knowschad]

I have never deleted a log like that. I have never required anyone to return to my cache just because they said that they didn't have a pen with them. I give them the benefit of the doubt that they did actually find my cache.

 

You have actually been waiting for a full year for somebody to return to your cache to sign in? Isn't that post-it note losing its stick by now?

[+StarBrand]

After a full year - I'd just let it go.

 

Seems to me the time for action is short on such a question. Ask the "finder" to provide some details that only somebody at that spot with the cache in hand would know - if you get a good answer - all is well. If not - delete the log immediately.

[+briansnat]

Unless I had good cause to believe that the logger did not find the cache I wouldn't delete it.

[+bflentje]

I appreciate this thread because it just reminded me that I forgot to log three caches I did in Lakeville, MN the other night. I normally am very prepared but for some reason, forgot a writing instrument this night. One of the three caches didn't contain one either. So I made it a point to leave a mark to prove I was there. My space on the log contained a grass stain.. I'll log it as found. If the cache owner has a problem with it, they're free to delete my log in their attempt to micromanage my lame efforts. But I'd at least expect to have it deleted within a reasonable amount of time. A year crosses that line as far as I am concerned. Some logs aren't even readable in a year in the right (or should I say wrong) conditions.

[+BlueDeuce]

How much time should be given to a cacher to return to a cache and sign the log when originally they "didn't have a pen to sign the log book". It asks the question, "Was he really there?" And if you delete their log, does that reflect the cachers total finds? I have a post iv'e been sitting on for over a year and thinking of deleting it. It's a difficult cache to get to, so thats why I've been waiting.

 

Unless I knew they were actually faking having found caches in the area, I'd leave it.

 

If I knew them I'd give them a little grief about it 'I thought you said..... '

 

Another reason to know your locals, to give them grief.

[Clan Riffster]

So far I've been lucky, as I've never faced a situation where I felt a log deletion was necessary. This includes many cases of folks forgetting a pen. I would take their word for the visit and leave it at that,

[knowschad]

By the way, yes... if you delete a log, you will not only be affecting their find count, but also any special milestone caches that they may have done will no longer be on that nice round number.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I appreciate this thread because it just reminded me that I forgot to log three caches I did in Lakeville, MN the other night. I normally am very prepared but for some reason, forgot a writing instrument this night. One of the three caches didn't contain one either. So I made it a point to leave a mark to prove I was there. My space on the log contained a grass stain.. I'll log it as found. If the cache owner has a problem with it, they're free to delete my log in their attempt to micromanage my lame efforts. But I'd at least expect to have it deleted within a reasonable amount of time. A year crosses that line as far as I am concerned. Some logs aren't even readable in a year in the right (or should I say wrong) conditions.

I agree. There's almost always a way to prove your find. I've wet the end of a stick with spit, twirled it in the dirt and made a mark with mud. When the logbook was destroyed or missing I've left something like a rock in the cache and told the owner "There is a red rock in the cache to prove I was here".

 

Still, as others have said, unless I had very good reason to believe that the log is a fake I'd take the cacher at his word and let it be.

Edited November 30, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+Sol seaker]

Well the reason to delete it of course would be that the rules say, sign the log, and then log it online.

 

But I'm glad to hear so many people willing to take people's word for it.

 

I would too, unless there was some particular reason to think otherwise (like they had been logging caches in Germany on the day before and the day after)

 

This game is for fun. It's good to hear people keeping it light and not getting all heavy about it.

[+bflentje]

Deleting someone's find would never cross my mind unless there were very specific circumstances; cursing, spoilers, etc. I take finders on their word. It is not a 100% rule though as I don't feel cachers should get credit for a high star cache when they haven't climbed the tree, for example. But in a case like that, I wouldn't know if they didn't divulge information. I never audit caches unless there's reason to do so.

[+Trekkin' and birdin']

It is not a 100% rule though as I don't feel cachers should get credit for a high star cache when they haven't climbed the tree,

 

Like a tree OVER a river? LOL I have an eyewitness who'll testify! Plus, I did sign it. I only wish she'd had her camera ready on that one!

 

Back to the topic.....we've deleted obvious armchair logs on a couple virtuals we adopted but other than that...we take folks at their word. I agree there are ways to prove you found it, like a photo of a solidly frozen-in ammo can, for example.

[+sbell111]

I have never deleted a log like that. I have never required anyone to return to my cache just because they said that they didn't have a pen with them. I give them the benefit of the doubt that they did actually find my cache.

 

You have actually been waiting for a full year for somebody to return to your cache to sign in? Isn't that post-it note losing its stick by now?

+1

[+Rockin Roddy]

I have never deleted a log like that. I have never required anyone to return to my cache just because they said that they didn't have a pen with them. I give them the benefit of the doubt that they did actually find my cache.

 

You have actually been waiting for a full year for somebody to return to your cache to sign in? Isn't that post-it note losing its stick by now?

+1

 

I pretty much agree with every post in this thread...shocking!

[knowschad]

I have never deleted a log like that. I have never required anyone to return to my cache just because they said that they didn't have a pen with them. I give them the benefit of the doubt that they did actually find my cache.

 

You have actually been waiting for a full year for somebody to return to your cache to sign in? Isn't that post-it note losing its stick by now?

+1

 

I pretty much agree with every post in this thread...shocking!

Finally back from the Rogue Reviewer convention, huh, Rod?

[AZcachemeister]

Any fool who TELLS YOU he didn't sign the log deserves to have his online log deleted.

[+Sagefox]

Any fool who TELLS YOU he didn't sign the log deserves to have his online log deleted.

 

I hope this is in jest.

 

In a few instances out of our 100+ caches placed where someone said they didn't sign the log, or I found on random inspection that they didn't sign or something just sounded flaky I have emailed the finder and asked for a description of the area. Most folks could give me some form of alternative proof and I am a firm believer in alternative proofs.

 

I found the condition to be quite rare. A handful of times out of 3000 or 4000 logs. Many folks will say with this condition being so rare, why bother? But I just don't like flaky or bogus logs and I have no qualms about deleting them.

[+Cache O'Plenty]

You can always burn the end of a stick and write your name in charcoal..... I know, not everyone carries matches/lighters into the remote areas. And, no fires, etc., etc.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Cache O'Plenty

[+Crow-T-Robot]

I usually leave my wallet, stuffed with $100 bills, in the cache until I can return to sign the log. It doesn't take me long to find a pen.

 

The only time I've felt compelled to audit the logbook is if a TB comes up missing when it shows in my cache, hoping to get lucky and see the person who took it wrote it down in the physical log. Hasn't happened yet

 

Bruce

[+briansnat]

You can always burn the end of a stick and write your name in charcoal..... I know, not everyone carries matches/lighters into the remote areas. And, no fires, etc., etc.

 

I've burned a stick and signed the log, used blades of grass, leaves, a stone, a lit cigar, and a stick dipped in mud. I've also encountered logs that were nothing more than pulp and impossible to sign. In one case I photographed the cache as proof I was there and in another left a business card.

 

I found the cache, I logged the find regardless of whether I was able to sign the logand admitted so in my log. I guess I'm a fool, but to me it's geocaching, not geologging.

[+mountainman38]

I have one cache that I logged without signing it. It was early in my geocaching career (almost a month ago), and I didn't carry a pen with me. The cache was easily accessible (right near the highway), in a very obvious spot (bottom of a large pole with a rock over it), and I haven't bothered to go back. If this causes me to lose a geocache credit, I'm ok with that.

 

Now, if I lost one of the hard to find ones... that would be a sad day.

[+DanOCan]

I have forgotten to bring a pen with me more times than I can count.

 

I am always open and honest about it in my online log. I always put forward to the cache owner an offer of some other method of proving my visit was legit, but so far none has ever asked me.

 

I figure I should extend that same courtesy to people who find my caches, so unless I had some reason to suspect the online log was bogus I wouldn't delete the log.

[+Six Little Spookies]

I found the cache, I logged the find regardless of whether I was able to sign the logand admitted so in my log. I guess I'm a fool, but to me it's geocaching, not geologging.

Oh No! Common sense! How did that get in here! :)

 

I see no reason to compare the online logs with the signed logbooks. Sounds like a lot of work for no benefit. I decided a couple of years ago not to worry about whether or not people are actually putting a signature in my logbooks.

 

But spoilers on my puzzle caches? They get deleted right away with an email asking them to log again without the spoilers.

[+kh54s10]

I have been looking as some of the physical logs recently and cannot figure out how a CO could possibly determine which signature would go with one on the online log. I cannot even determine what alphabet some of the cachers are using to sign the physical logs. I think that it is getting awful serious approaching an obsessive/compulsive disorder to make sure both match up. The exception would be a cache that has some special significance.

[knowschad]

I have been looking as some of the physical logs recently and cannot figure out how a CO could possibly determine which signature would go with one on the online log. I cannot even determine what alphabet some of the cachers are using to sign the physical logs. I think that it is getting awful serious approaching an obsessive/compulsive disorder to make sure both match up. The exception would be a cache that has some special significance.

I tend to agree with you there. Maybe (MAYbe) a large spiral-bound notebook log that has been in a good ziplock inside of an ammocan might be somewhat readable, but aside from that, all bets are off. And what are you gonna do when you come to that green or brown smear... check all online logs to see who forgot a pen, but improvised?

[+geodarts]

I've burned a stick and signed the log, used blades of grass, leaves, a stone, a lit cigar, and a stick dipped in mud.

 

And all this time I thought it was just me who had to resort to these means (except for the cigar bit) because I sometimes lack the sensation function necessary to bring a working pen. I am not alone after all! The sad part is that sometimes those methods are more legible than my signature.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Erickson

[+Harry Dolphin]

Pen in shirt pocket. Spare pen in backpack. There are people who go caching without writing implements?!?

[+geodarts]

Pen in shirt pocket. Spare pen in backpack. There are people who go caching without writing implements?!?

 

Yup. About half way through the hike, the pen would have undoubtedly leaked in my shirt pocket and the only thing in the backpack is water and a bowl for the dog. But when you are a cacher, the entire world is your writing instrument.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Erickson

[Lemonhead]

I cannot even determine what alphabet some of the cachers are using to sign the physical logs.

 

Amen brother...

[+jellis]

If I was the finder then hey pull out your cell phone and take a picture of the log with a note that I would send the pic for proof if they want. If I was the hider then I ask if they remember the cache container and how it was hidden, if no reply I check to see if they were even caching in the area specifically finding another cache nearby it. I recently had one who only had 3 finds. Two in a town 200 miles away. No other finds anywhere near mine and posted a spoiler.

[CoyoteRed]

How much time should be given to a cacher to return to a cache and sign the log when originally they "didn't have a pen to sign the log book". It asks the question, "Was he really there?" And if you delete their log, does that reflect the cachers total finds? I have a post iv'e been sitting on for over a year and thinking of deleting it. It's a difficult cache to get to, so thats why I've been waiting.

They promised to return to sign the log? Ask them to make their first visit a note and they are free to log a find when they actually sign the log.

 

But, how come there wasn't a writing instrument in the cache?

 

For the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would go geocaching without a writing instrument. In the beginning, the norm was to have a couple of pens in the cache. I can kinda understand relying on there being a pen in a cache, so back then forgetting a pen was nothing that big of a deal. But, today with so many BYOP caches what the heck is anyone doing without a pen? Doesn't make sense.

 

I don't know, it's just me, I guess. I'm not that generous of a person I suppose. If someone is not serious enough of providing some form of proof, then they're just not that serious in logging a find.

 

Here's another thought. I'm having a hard time with folks on one hand not caring whether a find is legitimate yet stats are so huge or challenge caches relying on a claim to be accurate. Isn't there a break down in the whole scheme of things?

[Skippermark]

For the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would go geocaching without a writing instrument.

I always carry a pen with me. I've dropped and lost my pen a couple times while getting to a cache, so now I carry 2 pens with me and carry them in different pockets. Unlikely I'd lose both.

 

On the rare times I've been to a cache and didn't have a pen, I've found ways to make sure my signature is on the log.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Skippermark

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

How much time should be given to a cacher to return to a cache and sign the log when originally they "didn't have a pen to sign the log book". It asks the question, "Was he really there?" And if you delete their log, does that reflect the cachers total finds? I have a post iv'e been sitting on for over a year and thinking of deleting it. It's a difficult cache to get to, so thats why I've been waiting.

They promised to return to sign the log? Ask them to make their first visit a note and they are free to log a find when they actually sign the log.

 

But, how come there wasn't a writing instrument in the cache?

 

For the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would go geocaching without a writing instrument. In the beginning, the norm was to have a couple of pens in the cache. I can kinda understand relying on there being a pen in a cache, so back then forgetting a pen was nothing that big of a deal. But, today with so many BYOP caches what the heck is anyone doing without a pen? Doesn't make sense.

 

I don't know, it's just me, I guess. I'm not that generous of a person I suppose. If someone is not serious enough of providing some form of proof, then they're just not that serious in logging a find.

 

Here's another thought. I'm having a hard time with folks on one hand not caring whether a find is legitimate yet stats are so huge or challenge caches relying on a claim to be accurate. Isn't there a break down in the whole scheme of things?

 

Maybe people new to Geocaching... who are not quite all prepared yet? I forgot a pen on a small number of caches when I was starting out.

 

Another reason why newbies are ruining your hobby, I guess....

 

I don't know, it's just me, I guess. I'm not that generous of a person I suppose.

 

Hmm...

[+briansnat]

For the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would go geocaching without a writing instrument.

 

I do, frequently. The overwhelming majority of caches around here have pens or pencils in them. The need to bring a pen never even crossed my mind until I started caching elsewhere. I still forget most of the time simply because I rarely need one.

Edited December 2, 2009 by briansnat

[+boda]

I carry at least two pens. The pens in the caches are often missing/broken/out of ink, so this way I'm covered.

 

I take people at their word. If they say they went to my cache - they did. I check the logs as I do maintenance so, if I noticed, I'd delete any on-line logs where no physical log exists.

 

I like Briansnat's comment about geocaching or geologging. I place a cache to take someone somewhere or to have a fun experience. If they tell me I've succeded in that goal, then I'm happy.

[+DanOCan]

I forget pens all the time. Caching for nearly six years so it ain't just a rookie mistake.

[CoyoteRed]

Another reason why newbies are ruining your hobby, I guess....

I'm not sure how that fits into anything. This thread, my post, or the one where you apparently still feel the sting. Because nowhere have I said newbies are ruining the hobby and you saying I've said as much is a bald face lie. I said it's people like you that is making the hobby less than what it once was. So, unless you represent all newbies...

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Another reason why newbies are ruining your hobby, I guess....

I'm not sure how that fits into anything. This thread, my post, or the one where you apparently still feel the sting. Because nowhere have I said newbies are ruining the hobby and you saying I've said as much is a bald face lie. I said it's people like you that is making the hobby less than what it once was. So, unless you represent all newbies...

 

Actually, I've garnered your sentiment towards newbies from your previous posts on this forum, since around 2003.

 

I guess your attitude towards people like me is the reason this sad attempt at creating a GC alternative didn't take off - your 'busy' forums have no posts and no members. You think you're a big shot but it's obvious you have no influence amongst your peers - that's why no-one's joined you in leaving geocaching.com yet, and why you keep coming back I guess.

 

For some strange reason it made me feel inferior about my finds, till I realised the fact that I haven't been doing this as long as you having only just started. Going by what is available to me, the quality of the small and micro caches I've found and hidden and the effort I've put into my first few hides, as well as the good logs and feedback I've had, you have no clue at all.

 

Yes I kicked off on a topic with an unpopular and provocative opinion, but you took it one step further and made it personal. You didn't disagree with my words, you disagreed with my very presence in this community.

 

I'm off to Prague tomorrow, so I guess I won't be able to continue any tit-for-tat with you. It's in Europe in case you were wondering. You see I've travelled a lot in the last 10 years, whilst you've spent most of that painting ammo cans and hiding them in the woods.

 

I notice by your cache finds you've never cached outside of the US. I have to assume that means you've never travelled abroad either, like I have. You've never lived in another country, like I have. I wasn't a geocacher then of course, but I have gained an experience and understanding of different cultures, a knowledge of the world outside of my own. Geocaching just adds to the experience for me.

 

So I guess there is still a little sting from the other day when I was basically slagged off by an uncultured knuckle dragger who has less experience of other cultures and the world than me, yes.

 

Oh and FWIW, I was introduced to geocaching in 2006, by the person who thankfully dragged me into it this year. I didn't really take an interest 3 years ago, but I guess I should have got started then to ensure my opinion wouldn't be discounted as much.

 

On topic:

 

It's just a game, it's a cool thing to find something hidden where you didn't know it was there before. If someone cheats at an online log, they cheat themselves, I go geocaching to get out and explore, not for numbers (but the occasional FTF is fun).

 

For those who cheat at logging, and those who obsess over the issue it seems they share the same thing, competition, numbers.

 

For me I won't delete logs but I might smile when I spot someone doing it. I don't approach life in a legalistic way and so I'll approach this hobby, which is for all people, in a non-legalistic way.

[+brslk]

[CoyoteRed]

Actually, I've garnered your sentiment towards newbies from your previous posts on this forum, since around 2003.

Wow! That's a lot of reading! I don't have that kind of time on my hands simply to figure out the psyche of another cacher.

 

Naw, I doubt you've read all my posts. ...or even a good portion.

 

Yes I kicked off on a topic with an unpopular and provocative opinion, but you took it one step further and made it personal. You didn't disagree with my words, you disagreed with my very presence in this community.

Actually, I took exception to those like you. I wasn't just disparaging you, but the whole group like you. I couldn't care less about you unless you start hiding those caches in our area, but those like you have. This group to which I refer is that which figure a non-trading micro in nondescript location is good enough and "good enough" is all they aspire to, and on the finding side of the hobby, if it will provide a smilie, it's "good enough."

 

Ever seen those videos that try to introduce the general public to geocaching? Could be a cacher-made video, a commercial video, or a reporter doing a community feel-good segment. The types of caches that are typical of the group to which I'm referring rarely make it into these videos? You have to ask yourself why.

 

I notice by your cache finds you've never cached outside of the US. I have to assume that means you've never travelled abroad either, like I have. You've never lived in another country, like I have.

Well, you assume wrong. I didn't buy your claim that you can only hide micros and smalls in the English countryside considering I lived in Scotland for two years. (I'm sure the letterboxing crowd would get a pretty good snort at that assertion, as well.) Oh, and three years in Spain. Traveled to a few more on pleasure so I could enjoy myself and take in the sights.

 

So I guess there is still a little sting from the other day when I was basically slagged off by an uncultured knuckle dragger who has less experience of other cultures and the world than me, yes.

Weird that I'm both elitist and a knuckle dragger.

 

Oh, and a site can't fail if it had never been launched. Good Googling, though. Yeah, I took it down. It wasn't ready for prime-time. I figure I can be more effective at helping steer the hobby here, even with all its flaws.

 

So, in conclusion, your opinion of me is based pretty much solely on our short interactions in the past few days, a few forum posts of the past, a bit of Googling, and the sting that not everyone has the same high opinion of your style of caching as you do.

 

On topic: I feel that unless at least a few cache owners request that all online logs match the paper logbook that the slow spiral will continue until no one signs the book at all. "Slow spiral?" More micros and non-trading cache than ever. (More and a higher percentage.) More nondescript locations. Etc.

[+beemer530]

I just put out a new cache the other day and the first cacher to log it online claimed to have lost their pen and said they used motor oil and spit and clay to mark the log. The 2 smudges were theirs. Well I went out to check and found the log to be perfectly clean, not a mark, smudge, speck of dirt, or motor oil on it. Also no footprints around the cache as I was careful to erase any that I had left placing it. This is a small micro cache with scroll log concealed in a very specific way. Since this would be a FTF for my cache, I have emailed the cacher (who has never logged a cache closer than 200 miles from mine) saying I would be happy to sign the log for him to validate his first to find if they will just email me with a description of the cache and how it was concealed. I am waiting for a reply. My research since sending that email today seems to indicate I am not out of line if I choose to delete the log. If this wasn't a FTF, I wouldn't be making such a deal of it. I haven't decided how much time to give them , but feel like a week should be plenty maybe 2 at the most.

[+power69]

I usually leave my wallet, stuffed with $100 bills, in the cache until I can return to sign the log. It doesn't take me long to find a pen.

How can you get a pen if you've left all your money in a cache? or do you keep a spare dollar for buying a pen should you leave all your money in a cache because you had no pen?

-

lifes too short to fret over whether theres a splotch of ink on a piece of paper in a piece of tupperware somewhere.

[+redsox_mark]

I always plan to bring a pen; sometimes I forget; or I thought I had one in my pocket then find I didn't (or maybe I dropped it). I've only been caught out once so far (only ~220 finds); in that one case I took a photo of the logbook (only) with my mobile phone (which I always have with me) and attached it to the log.

[CoyoteRed]

I haven't decided how much time to give them , but feel like a week should be plenty maybe 2 at the most.

Wait no longer. They realized their mistake as per the log on the cache page.

 

This is common honest mistake that comes about from myriad of ways. Could be a transposition of waypoint digits, clicking the wrong cache, or thinking you found the cache you were looking for. Folks could find letterboxes or caches from other sites. Or they might find private caches.

[knowschad]

I haven't decided how much time to give them , but feel like a week should be plenty maybe 2 at the most.

Wait no longer. They realized their mistake as per the log on the cache page.

 

This is common honest mistake that comes about from myriad of ways. Could be a transposition of waypoint digits, clicking the wrong cache, or thinking you found the cache you were looking for. Folks could find letterboxes or caches from other sites. Or they might find private caches.

Yup... (link to their log) Odd that they didn't realize that they can delete their own log, though!!

[+beemer530]

I just put out a new cache the other day and the first cacher to log it online claimed to have lost their pen and said they used motor oil and spit and clay to mark the log. The 2 smudges were theirs. Well I went out to check and found the log to be perfectly clean, not a mark, smudge, speck of dirt, or motor oil on it. Also no footprints around the cache as I was careful to erase any that I had left placing it. This is a small micro cache with scroll log concealed in a very specific way. Since this would be a FTF for my cache, I have emailed the cacher (who has never logged a cache closer than 200 miles from mine) saying I would be happy to sign the log for him to validate his first to find if they will just email me with a description of the cache and how it was concealed. I am waiting for a reply. My research since sending that email today seems to indicate I am not out of line if I choose to delete the log. If this wasn't a FTF, I wouldn't be making such a deal of it. I haven't decided how much time to give them , but feel like a week should be plenty maybe 2 at the most.

 

Just an update to my prior post.

I got a reply from the cacher and he had accidently posted to the wrong cache online. He meant to post to "Log Only" cache and had mistakenly posted to "A Log Only" cache. I'm glad I didn't falsely accuse the cacher of wrong doing. The error was quickly corrected and no harm has been done.

 

Beemer530

[+Unkle Fester]

Any fool who TELLS YOU he didn't sign the log deserves to have his online log deleted.

 

I hope this is in jest.

 

In a few instances out of our 100+ caches placed where someone said they didn't sign the log, or I found on random inspection that they didn't sign or something just sounded flaky I have emailed the finder and asked for a description of the area. Most folks could give me some form of alternative proof and I am a firm believer in alternative proofs.

I usually send an email too. most of the time they give a quick description of the area/hide and I let it go. A couple of them deleted their own logs and a couple turned around and went to sign the log.

 

Very interesting...

 

You can always burn the end of a stick and write your name in charcoal..... I know, not everyone carries matches/lighters into the remote areas. And, no fires, etc., etc.

I've left blood, distinct grass stain and uses a stick to etch some mark. It's even funnier when the next person comes along and sees the name etching attempt and inks your name a little clearer (usually they know me)

 

I cannot even determine what alphabet some of the cachers are using to sign the physical logs.

 

Amen brother...

Yeah, thats me too. It ends up looking like Carbunkle Toaster or Kunkle Jester or Carburator Tester or a series of unintelligble scribble of lines. Some out of towners have questioned it but all the locals recognize the unrecognizable but unique scribble.