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FTF versus park hours


_Shaddow_
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I'm with the "no excuse, it shouldn't be done crowd" on this one. One of the reasons I stopped trying for FTF's in my area (most of the time, every now and then I do get the urge) was when one local cacher parked his truck on the side of a local expressway to let his kid out to grab the FTF on a new cache when the park was closed.

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There's always an exception to the rule, I own a cache in a roadside rest park that closes during the winters. While the gates are closed and the sign says so, it is not really closed to people wishing to walk around and stretch their legs etc. The PTB don't want to spend money maintaining the parking area during the winter AND they ask you not to use the toilets. I've chatted with TPTB and they are fine with allowing people to walk in even when signs say otherwise and I note this on the cache page!

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I've noticed that a lot of cache posting occur well after dark, at least during this part of the year when daylight hours are shortest. And many of these caches are located within parks with posted hours. So a FTFer has a choice, either break the rules or wait until morning hoping another FTFer that is willing to break the rules doesn't make the find during the night.

 

So the questions are:

  1. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to get a FTF?
  2. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to search for a non-FTF?

I think a lot of people that break the rules usually have something similar to this to say: "I had a great time breaking the park rules maybe the geo sheriff will give me a ticket. We all play this game a little differant then the next person but I try not to worry how the other people play." (a direct quote from a log posting today)

 

Then other side says for one that it's not fair to break the rules. That breaking the rules by one or a few gives all geocachers a bad reputation and even puts the game at risk for bans or more rules. If so then the idea that what I do doesn't affect you so leave me alone is just plane false and only self-serving.

 

Please limit your posts to discussion of the topic and avoid flaming

 

Looking forward to see where this goes!

 

Wow! My cache makes headlines... I only have to say read my note on my page...

 

I get a kick out of the comment from Rey del Roble. Nearly 13000 finds and not ONE, SINGLE, park rules violation, yeah right. If there were a way to prove it I'd bet against it. And if true, VERY impressive. There aren't many of us that can say that we've never stretched the rules, ever. Not defending it mind you...

 

 

November 29 by Rey del Roble (12802 found)

A black eye for GC when cachers break the law and owners allow it.

We'll be lucky to be allowed in any parks soon.

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I don't delete legit found it logs. I asked the loggers to alter them to remove the references to breaking the rules. They all complied, usually accompanied by an apology (though it wasn't me who was owed the apology).

And even that is not going to help, if a landmanager happens to have a watch set on all caches in the parks they manage. They will get the original, unedited version emailed to them, and that is what they will see.
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Wow! My cache makes headlines... I only have to say read my note on my page...
I read your note on the page. I also read your note in the logs dated November 24. It kind of suggests that cachers should come find the cache at night, doesn't it?
I am waiting! Where are all the FTFers tonight?

 

Also, it should be noted that TPTB have previously taken the stand that cache owners should not allow people to use their cache pages as a forum. As such, the notes from FobesMan, GrievousAngel, and Rey del Roble should be deleted.

Edited by sbell111
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Most things in life are ultimately gray.

 

White: The park closes at dusk.

 

Black: I want in anyway.

 

Gray: If after dinner you looked for your glasses and remembered that you left them at the cache site in a now-closed park would you go back to get them? If you had an early flight and couldn't wait till the park opened? If you knew kids hung out there and where afraid they'd find your really expensive uninsured sunglasses? Would you go break the park-closes-at-dusk law then?

 

It's all relative.

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Most things in life are ultimately gray.

 

White: The park closes at dusk.

 

Black: I want in anyway.

 

Gray: If after dinner you looked for your glasses and remembered that you left them at the cache site in a now-closed park would you go back to get them? If you had an early flight and couldn't wait till the park opened? If you knew kids hung out there and where afraid they'd find your really expensive uninsured sunglasses? Would you go break the park-closes-at-dusk law then?

 

It's all relative.

 

I'd say the LEO (should they see you there) AND the property owner would be much more understanding should you have a good reason. It's not so grey an area in that light. However, Billybobcacher with his sense of "I don't care abou the law" attitude might be met with a little different attitude...

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Most things in life are ultimately gray.

 

White: The park closes at dusk.

 

Black: I want in anyway.

 

Gray: If after dinner you looked for your glasses and remembered that you left them at the cache site in a now-closed park would you go back to get them? If you had an early flight and couldn't wait till the park opened? If you knew kids hung out there and where afraid they'd find your really expensive uninsured sunglasses? Would you go break the park-closes-at-dusk law then?

 

It's all relative.

 

I'd say the LEO (should they see you there) AND the property owner would be much more understanding should you have a good reason. It's not so grey an area in that light. However, Billybobcacher with his sense of "I don't care abou the law" attitude might be met with a little different attitude...

So, when someone gets busted for being in a closed park they should just say "I left my expensive uninsured glasses at a cache in this park and have an early flight so I came back to get them" :unsure:

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If after dinner you looked for your glasses and remembered that you left them at the cache site in a now-closed park would you go back to get them? If you had an early flight and couldn't wait till the park opened? If you knew kids hung out there and where afraid they'd find your really expensive uninsured sunglasses? Would you go break the park-closes-at-dusk law then?

 

It's all relative.

What if you left a relative at the cache site? :unsure:

 

Back on topic: In the case you cited, would you go back and log a note explaining that you broke the park's rule, or would you simply go grab your glasses and leave it at that? I believe that breaking park rules is a bad thing, in and of itself, but there are reasons I could excuse such behavior. Breaking the park rules, then posting the fact in your log where the management can see there are folks playing this game who don't give a hoot about rules, is, in my eyes, worse than just breaking the rules.

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If after dinner you looked for your glasses and remembered that you left them at the cache site in a now-closed park would you go back to get them? If you had an early flight and couldn't wait till the park opened? If you knew kids hung out there and where afraid they'd find your really expensive uninsured sunglasses? Would you go break the park-closes-at-dusk law then?

 

It's all relative.

What if you left a relative at the cache site? :unsure:

 

Back on topic: In the case you cited, would you go back and log a note explaining that you broke the park's rule, or would you simply go grab your glasses and leave it at that? I believe that breaking park rules is a bad thing, in and of itself, but there are reasons I could excuse such behavior. Breaking the park rules, then posting the fact in your log where the management can see there are folks playing this game who don't give a hoot about rules, is, in my eyes, worse than just breaking the rules.

 

Can't argue with that in the least!

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If you don't want people logging your cache in a closed park then put a time locking device on it so that they can't. Otherwise, let it go. You're never going to get everyone to play how you want them to.

Once again, the point of this thread is to discuss ways to keep overzealous cachers from breaking the law/park rules when hunting a cache. This has nothing to do with individuals. It is about the game and the public perception. We understand that not all will play the game well, but we can hope.

 

Placing a locking device on the cache still won't keep people from hunting it during the hours the park is closed. More likely it will result in the locking device being broken by the same cachers who can't manage to play by the rules to begin with.

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Well....I live in a town that has many many public parks with walking paths through most of them. The parks do have posted hours but LONG before I started GeoCaching I would walk through those parks 5 times a week ALWAYS after dark. I would run into other people walking their dogs, or jogging in the parks all the time. I see NO problem with going after a FTF after dark, it's not like you're having a family reunion at midnight. I would say it's a different story if it's a county or state park where you normally would have to pay to get in, or if it's on private property.....then I would say stay out.

 

I pulled into a parking lot at a local park at 11:25pm, and parked about 10 parking spots directly in front of a cop sitting in his car. My daughter and I grabbed our flashlights and headed towards the park. He asked what we were doing, and after I explained it to him, all he had to say was "good luck".

 

I don't get why everybody gets so bent out of shape by this......lighten up, it's just a hobby. :unsure:

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Well....I live in a town that has many many public parks with walking paths through most of them. The parks do have posted hours but LONG before I started GeoCaching I would walk through those parks 5 times a week ALWAYS after dark. I would run into other people walking their dogs, or jogging in the parks all the time. I see NO problem with going after a FTF after dark, it's not like you're having a family reunion at midnight. I would say it's a different story if it's a county or state park where you normally would have to pay to get in, or if it's on private property.....then I would say stay out.

 

I pulled into a parking lot at a local park at 11:25pm, and parked about 10 parking spots directly in front of a cop sitting in his car. My daughter and I grabbed our flashlights and headed towards the park. He asked what we were doing, and after I explained it to him, all he had to say was "good luck".

 

I don't get why everybody gets so bent out of shape by this......lighten up, it's just a hobby. :)

 

Actually its a game :)

 

If all places were like yours, there wouldn't be any issues. But they're not, so there is

Edited by _Shaddow_
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Well....I live in a town that has many many public parks with walking paths through most of them. The parks do have posted hours but LONG before I started GeoCaching I would walk through those parks 5 times a week ALWAYS after dark. I would run into other people walking their dogs, or jogging in the parks all the time. I see NO problem with going after a FTF after dark, it's not like you're having a family reunion at midnight. I would say it's a different story if it's a county or state park where you normally would have to pay to get in, or if it's on private property.....then I would say stay out.

 

I pulled into a parking lot at a local park at 11:25pm, and parked about 10 parking spots directly in front of a cop sitting in his car. My daughter and I grabbed our flashlights and headed towards the park. He asked what we were doing, and after I explained it to him, all he had to say was "good luck".

 

I don't get why everybody gets so bent out of shape by this......lighten up, it's just a hobby. :)

I get it. The rules don't apply to you, you'll do what you want. Hey, other people do, so why not. :)

 

And... I could care less.

 

But... when you post online, especially in cache logs, that you are above the law and have no intention of following it if it doesn't suit you, that you will pick which rules to follow and which to ignore - for that's how "WooHoo! FTF at midnight! The gate was closed but we went around it without a problem" will be read by park management

 

Then... landowners reading those posts might very likely ask themselves "Is this the kind of person who geocaches, and why would I allow geocaching in my park if they obviously have zero respect for posted rules?"

 

So... they avoid the issue altogether by taking the easiest route and posting another rule - No Geocaching.

 

Therefore... since we know that we can't get you to follow the rules all we're saying is

 

For the good of the game, don't post your violations in logs!

 

Simple, really. :)

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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...I don't get why everybody gets so bent out of shape by this......lighten up, it's just a hobby. :)

 

Because actions such as your jeopardize the sport for the rest of us, that's why

 

In some areas, the posted park hours are generally ignored. I know of a park in my area, near a college campus that is frequently sued after dark be people walking. Other parks are very strictly enforced.

 

My general rule is, if there are posted hours, I follow them, if the cache page says "no night caching" but the posted hours are say, 7 Am to 10 PM, I'll go in if it's before the posted closing time. If no hours are posted and the cache poage tells me no night caching, I just don't go in.

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...I don't get why everybody gets so bent out of shape by this......lighten up, it's just a hobby. :)

 

Because actions such as your jeopardize the sport for the rest of us, that's why

 

Exactly!

 

Anyone who breaks park rules to find a cache should not associate their breaking of the rules with our game. No reason to note in your online log that you broke any rules. Why would anyone do that anyway? Does it increase one's stature in the community to be known as a rule breaker? Maybe folks who do that want to impress on other cachers how 'dedicated' they are to the FTF game. Who knows?

 

Land managers DO read the geocaching logs on caches they know are on their lands. I know if I were a land manager and saw such logs on caches I had allowed on lands I managed, I would be thinking twice about my decision to allow the game there. There is no reason for us to shoot ourselves in the collective feet.

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Simple answer:

No it isn't okay.

 

Long Answer:

Some, who are selfish, break rules or cheat for their own advantage and to our own disadvantage in life (taxes, welfare, unemployment, etc.).

 

Some choose to follow rules to the best of their ability, but lose when someone who cheats enters the game, due to the un-level playing field.

 

It is all about the standards you choose to hold yourself to, and there is nothing that the rule followers can say to change the mind of the cheaters of the world.

 

To me breaking small rules is the "gateway drug" to breaking bigger rules. Yes, I sometimes do it, but I really try not to, and regret when I do.

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To me breaking small rules is the "gateway drug" to breaking bigger rules. Yes, I sometimes do it, but I really try not to, and regret when I do.
I drove three miles over the speed limit on the way into work today. It won't be long before I'm robbing banks to pay for my heroin addiction, right? Edited by sbell111
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To me breaking small rules is the "gateway drug" to breaking bigger rules. Yes, I sometimes do it, but I really try not to, and regret when I do.
I drove three miles over the speed limit on the way into work today. It won't be long before I'm robbing banks to pay for my heroin addiction, right?

Man, some people never learn. Now that you've fessed up to being a speeding scofflaw the Sheriff is going to set up a speed trap down the road from your house. You've publicly made a fool of him and he won't rest until he has you in jail and the arrest on World's Dumbest Criminals. Your wife will be embarrassed and boot you out of the house, which she'll keep in the upcoming divorce, your children will change their name, you'll lose your job, you won't be able to make car payments and it will get repossessed, bankruptcy will drive you to drink (box wine, it's all you will be able to afford) and soon you will be sleeping on the park bench where you used to hide micros. All because you posted your crime online. :)

 

Wake up America, keep your crimes to yourself! :)

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To me breaking small rules is the "gateway drug" to breaking bigger rules. Yes, I sometimes do it, but I really try not to, and regret when I do.
I drove three miles over the speed limit on the way into work today. It won't be long before I'm robbing banks to pay for my heroin addiction, right?

 

I'll pray for your soul - It's never too late to get yourself on the right track! :)

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To me breaking small rules is the "gateway drug" to breaking bigger rules. Yes, I sometimes do it, but I really try not to, and regret when I do.
I drove three miles over the speed limit on the way into work today. It won't be long before I'm robbing banks to pay for my heroin addiction, right?
Law enforcement officers Land managers DO read the geocaching forums. Posting that online is a great way to give Geocaching a black eye. :)
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To me breaking small rules is the "gateway drug" to breaking bigger rules. Yes, I sometimes do it, but I really try not to, and regret when I do.
I drove three miles over the speed limit on the way into work today. It won't be long before I'm robbing banks to pay for my heroin addiction, right?
Law enforcement officers Land managers DO read the geocaching forums. Posting that online is a great way to give Geocaching a black eye. :)

Surely you jest. You meant to add a smilie icon instead of a scowl, right?

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To me breaking small rules is the "gateway drug" to breaking bigger rules. Yes, I sometimes do it, but I really try not to, and regret when I do.
I drove three miles over the speed limit on the way into work today. It won't be long before I'm robbing banks to pay for my heroin addiction, right?
Law enforcement officers Land managers DO read the geocaching forums. Posting that online is a great way to give Geocaching a black eye. :huh:

Surely you jest. You meant to add a smilie icon instead of a scowl, right?

But, of course!! Or at least, a smile icon following the scowl. I'll tell you what: I will add that now... :(
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To me breaking small rules is the "gateway drug" to breaking bigger rules. Yes, I sometimes do it, but I really try not to, and regret when I do.
I drove three miles over the speed limit on the way into work today. It won't be long before I'm robbing banks to pay for my heroin addiction, right?

Man, some people never learn. Now that you've fessed up to being a speeding scofflaw the Sheriff is going to set up a speed trap down the road from your house. You've publicly made a fool of him and he won't rest until he has you in jail and the arrest on World's Dumbest Criminals.

 

I suppose that there is a police forum somewhere, and I bet that there is some cop probably boasting that he busts people for going 3 miles over the speed limit.

 

I can imagine the other cops all getting mad at him for making them all look bad, and getting on him for it.

 

Ah, is he creating the perception that all cops act that way? That would be silly, but some people would see it like that. Perhaps you could look at it as there being bad cops and good cops out there, but even to pigeonhole them into 2 categories would be wrong also. Every cop in every situation is different, just as every geocacher in every embarrasing/ illegal situation is different. There is no black and white, but several degrees of grey. But you cannot ignore the fact that there will be people that will sterotype you anyhow. Just because stereotyping is wrong doesn't mean that it is ok to promote negative impressions to make all your fellow cachers look bad to someone, somehow..

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Land managers DO read the geocaching logs on caches they know are on their lands. I know if I were a land manager and saw such logs on caches I had allowed on lands I managed, I would be thinking twice about my decision to allow the game there. There is no reason for us to shoot ourselves in the collective feet.

 

In fact, for one cache that I own that is on private property with the permission of the property owner I periodically print out the latest logs and show it to the owner. They're not geocachers but have enjoyed reading the logs of geocachers that have found the cache and enjoyed the location.

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