FTF versus park hours

[JustWannaCache]

Simple in my opinion. Going in the park after hours is bad form and could result in areas being closed off to our game.

 

...

 

Breaking the rules is bad enough. Boasting about it in a log that the entire world can see is asinine.

 

...

 

 

Could be also that it takes more guts to post and take the ridicule then not say anything at all. As in, 'hey I did this, I'm owning up to it, judge me as you will.'

 

Often what is attributed to guts is simply stupidity. Some may say it takes guts to have a friend shoot a beer can off your head with a .22. Others will call doing so incredibly dumb.

 

Jeopardizing the future of geocaching for everybody in your area so you can own up to your own cluelessness simply compounds the stupidity.

 

Yea, thats true. But not in this case.

 

You're implying that I broke the rules just to own up. Your being silly and I'm starting to not listen to you

And I'm just going to take my ball and go home.

[Clan Riffster]

Your being silly and I'm starting to not listen to you

That's the Geocaching forum's version of sticking your fingers in your ears, yelling "La, la, la, la, la! I can't hear you! La, la, la, la, la!"

[+_Shaddow_]

Maybe you should post this over in the northwest forums and get some additional local perspective from a few of the folks who have been working hard to keep parks open to caching in our area.

 

Why is that?

Just a thought to get some feedback with a local perspective.

 

Sorry WRASTRO, not trying to be snippy or such, thanks for the heads up, I'm going to check it out.

 

I think the issue goes beyond the NW to the greater community so this is a good place for the discussion as well

I agree this is a good spot for the general discussion. I suggested the northwest forums as well so that you and others who have been involved in this thread so far might have a chance to hear from some of the Puget Sound area cachers who have been working, literally for years, to keep many of the parks in our region open to geocaching. A small amount of bad publicity can cause a very large amount of bad blood with the land managers.

 

What I found at the NW forums is that there is indeed a lot of effort going on to work closely with parks and land owners. That’s great but no mention in those discussions about breaking / not breaking park rules (other then for cache placement). And I found a topic specifically related to breaking park hours rules and it seemed the consensus was that its up to the individual cacher; not what I expected.

 

The main replies here indicate two things to me:

1: It’s not ok; it reflects on us all and could cause trouble for the game.

2: If someone does it on my cache, boo on them but I’m not going to do anything about it. Well, a little bit, I’d tell them to cover it up.

 

Re #1: Expected! Good! True! Etc…

 

Re #2: Sadly, also expected.

 

But if #1 is true, then something needs to be done about it. I know, I know, the geo-police and all that. Whatever. We ARE the geo-police, we are self-policing. Time to stand up to it and do something.

 

And yes, yes, we all should be of better moral character, etc. Again, whatever. If you really think that soapboxing is the answer and will work, you’d better take a look at the world around you, you’re going to be in for a big surprise.

 

The incentive is for finders to break the rules and for COs to accept it. Until that tide changes, and the incentive is to not break the rules and for COs to not accept it, it will keep on occurring.

 

It will keep on occurring and negatively affect all of us.

 

Got any real, workable ideas on how to stop geo-cachers breaking park hours rules to make a find on a cache?

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

You seriously lost me. Are you saying you PURPOSELY break the law and then "come clean" so you can sleep better at night? Wouldn't it be easier and better to just NOT break the law so you don't have to "come clean"? Wow!!

 

No, my friend. The owner didn't break the law, that's what those who go into closed places do. It's definitely NOT back on the owner...

 

Thats what I said; I knowingly broke the rules and owned up to it.

That's better then breaking the rules and covering it up. Which, of the two, is what you support

 

No one said the owner broke the law.

So back to the point: it is on the owner if they don't delete logs that they knww were gained by breaking the laws. The only reason not to is because the want the found-my-cache stat or they don't have the guts, too afraid someone will get made at them.

 

Simple in my opinion. Going in the park after hours is bad form and could result in areas being closed off to our game.

 

...

 

I have a cache in a park that has No Dogs Allowed signs posted prominently. Over the 7+ years it has been out the cache has had about a half dozen people post logs where they mentioned seeing the sign, but brought their dog along anyway.

 

...

 

Did you delete the logs?

 

I don't delete legit found it logs. I asked the loggers to alter them to remove the references to breaking the rules. They all complied, usually accompanied by an apology (though it wasn't me who was owed the apology).

 

The hypocrisy…

 

So you don't hold the law breakers accountable. Instead you request that they cover it up. Why?

 

Simple in my opinion. Going in the park after hours is bad form and could result in areas being closed off to our game.

 

...

 

Breaking the rules is bad enough. Boasting about it in a log that the entire world can see is asinine.

 

...

 

 

Could be also that it takes more guts to post and take the ridicule then not say anything at all. As in, 'hey I did this, I'm owning up to it, judge me as you will.'

 

Often what is attributed to guts is simply stupidity. Some may say it takes guts to have a friend shoot a beer can off your head with a .22. Others will call doing so incredibly dumb.

 

Jeopardizing the future of geocaching for everybody in your area so you can own up to your own cluelessness simply compounds the stupidity.

 

Yea, thats true. But not in this case.

 

You're implying that I broke the rules just to own up. Your being silly and I'm starting to not listen to you

 

You have no clue what I support, please don't pretend you do. What I DO support is OBEYING THE LAW...simple. And I believe I already told you I'd delete any log stating illegal actions were taken. Since I'm not an LEO, what else would you like me to do?

 

I suppose you'd like me to applaud you for "coming clean"? HARDLY. I'd applaud you if you acted responsibly, that would be worthy of applause as opposed to "coming clean". I don't make a habit of applauding criminals.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Growing up in the late 60s we spent a lot of nights hanging around in closed parks, cemeteries and other off-limits places, smoking dope, drinking cheap wine and making out in unlikely places, so entering a closed park to find a cache doesn't seem like much of a crime.

 

As a parent whose kids hung around parks (I am sure they never did any of those things!) I took a more conservative view.

 

As a cacher I take an even more conservative view yet... don't do it for the good of the game, rather than because it's a crime.

[+flask]

i think some people are confused by some people not wishing to allow logs that indicate a cacher has gone in to a park during closed hours.

 

i think that while one might not wish to let these logs stand at all, the cache owners wishing to have the logs be edited are subscribing to the conservative view that a cache find is a cache find, and that logs should not be deleted without very good cause.

 

it is right not to want logs to cheerfully admit having broken law or park rule, and where cachers have gone against that, it is right to ask them to keep quiet about it for decency's sake.

 

to "courageously" and unapologetically "come clean" doesn't help us much in terms of being perceived as a legal activity. if you've broken the law to get a cache, for pete's sake shut up about it in your log.

 

best scenario: obey the law.

second best scenario: pretend you've obeyed the law.

[JustWannaCache]

i think some people are confused by some people not wishing to allow logs that indicate a cacher has gone in to a park during closed hours.

 

i think that while one might not wish to let these logs stand at all, the cache owners wishing to have the logs be edited are subscribing to the conservative view that a cache find is a cache find, and that logs should not be deleted without very good cause.

 

it is right not to want logs to cheerfully admit having broken law or park rule, and where cachers have gone against that, it is right to ask them to keep quiet about it for decency's sake.

 

to "courageously" and unapologetically "come clean" doesn't help us much in terms of being perceived as a legal activity. if you've broken the law to get a cache, for pete's sake shut up about it in your log.

 

best scenario: obey the law.

second best scenario: pretend you've obeyed the law.

 

Flask--you bring up a good point here. A find is a find. Let em log it however they want. If they want to admit to breaking the law in their log, why not let em? I mean really, is it hurting anyone? And what are the chances that an LEO is going to use that as evidence against them for being in a closed park?

 

There are too many people here who want to go about telling everyone else how they have to play the game. This on a site that HAS NO RULES -- ONLY GUIDELINES!!

 

Get over your selves and let people play and log how they want to. Is it really hurting you?

[+WRASTRO]

i think some people are confused by some people not wishing to allow logs that indicate a cacher has gone in to a park during closed hours.

 

i think that while one might not wish to let these logs stand at all, the cache owners wishing to have the logs be edited are subscribing to the conservative view that a cache find is a cache find, and that logs should not be deleted without very good cause.

 

it is right not to want logs to cheerfully admit having broken law or park rule, and where cachers have gone against that, it is right to ask them to keep quiet about it for decency's sake.

 

to "courageously" and unapologetically "come clean" doesn't help us much in terms of being perceived as a legal activity. if you've broken the law to get a cache, for pete's sake shut up about it in your log.

 

best scenario: obey the law.

second best scenario: pretend you've obeyed the law.

 

Flask--you bring up a good point here. A find is a find. Let em log it however they want. If they want to admit to breaking the law in their log, why not let em? I mean really, is it hurting anyone? And what are the chances that an LEO is going to use that as evidence against them for being in a closed park?

 

There are too many people here who want to go about telling everyone else how they have to play the game. This on a site that HAS NO RULES -- ONLY GUIDELINES!!

 

Get over your selves and let people play and log how they want to. Is it really hurting you?

You are completely missing the point. The concern is not about getting in trouble with law enforcement (although it could happen). The concern is about the perception that land managers have about the game and whether they will allow the game on the lands they manage. Land managers DO check caches placed on their lands and they DO read the logs. If they see logs that mention breaking the rules they are far more likely to simply ban caches from their lands. That is how it hurts others and the game.

[+_Shaddow_]

 

You have no clue what I support, please don't pretend you do. What I DO support is OBEYING THE LAW...simple. And I believe I already told you I'd delete any log stating illegal actions were taken. Since I'm not an LEO, what else would you like me to do?

 

I suppose you'd like me to applaud you for "coming clean"? HARDLY. I'd applaud you if you acted responsibly, that would be worthy of applause as opposed to "coming clean". I don't make a habit of applauding criminals.

 

You're right, that comment should have been directed to briansnat; my apologies.

You said you you delete any postings when you know the finder broke rules to do it. Great! That's exactly what I'm asking for. Unless anyone has any better ideas...

 

Back off. I don't care about your applause. I wasn't coming clean. But I am man enough to say it straight about what I do, good or bad, rather then cowardly hide behind lies or cover ups. I suppose you want everyone to believe that you never speed. If you do, even once in a while, then by your thinking, your just as much a criminal.

[+briansnat]

I mean really, is it hurting anyone?

 

It could hurt the perception of the sport in the eyes of the authorities. We can only enjoy this sport if we are in their good graces.

 

You obviosuly have not been around long enough to remember the situation in SC where a state senator decided that geocaching was a scourge that needed to be regulated. She had her staff comb cache logs for photos and comments that would put our sport in a bad light. They found enough stuff (often taken out of context, but that is besides the point) to get support for a bill to outlaw geocaching in certain areas. It ultimately wasn't passed, but it could have been.

 

Non geocachers do read our logs. Some of them do not like us and we don't need to give them any ammunition.

[+_Shaddow_]

 

Flask--you bring up a good point here. A find is a find. Let em log it however they want. If they want to admit to breaking the law in their log, why not let em? I mean really, is it hurting anyone? And what are the chances that an LEO is going to use that as evidence against them for being in a closed park?

 

There are too many people here who want to go about telling everyone else how they have to play the game. This on a site that HAS NO RULES -- ONLY GUIDELINES!!

 

Get over your selves and let people play and log how they want to. Is it really hurting you?

 

It's always the self-serving ones that say 'get over yourselves.' Yes, it is hurting me because breaking the rules hurts the geocaching community at large. For the reasons stated by WRASTRO, my post #50 and others.

 

Guidelines, rules... call them what you want but they have the same affect. Guidelines are just more flexible in the gray areas. And there are rules. Try posting an Alternate Logging Requirement cache and you will find out.

 

By not allowing rule breakers to log changes the incentive and therefore the behavior which is the real goal (no breaking rules / laws).

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

i think some people are confused by some people not wishing to allow logs that indicate a cacher has gone in to a park during closed hours.

 

i think that while one might not wish to let these logs stand at all, the cache owners wishing to have the logs be edited are subscribing to the conservative view that a cache find is a cache find, and that logs should not be deleted without very good cause.

 

it is right not to want logs to cheerfully admit having broken law or park rule, and where cachers have gone against that, it is right to ask them to keep quiet about it for decency's sake.

 

to "courageously" and unapologetically "come clean" doesn't help us much in terms of being perceived as a legal activity. if you've broken the law to get a cache, for pete's sake shut up about it in your log.

 

best scenario: obey the law.

second best scenario: pretend you've obeyed the law.

 

Flask--you bring up a good point here. A find is a find. Let em log it however they want. If they want to admit to breaking the law in their log, why not let em? I mean really, is it hurting anyone? And what are the chances that an LEO is going to use that as evidence against them for being in a closed park?

 

There are too many people here who want to go about telling everyone else how they have to play the game. This on a site that HAS NO RULES -- ONLY GUIDELINES!!

 

Get over your selves and let people play and log how they want to. Is it really hurting you?

You are completely missing the point. The concern is not about getting in trouble with law enforcement (although it could happen). The concern is about the perception that land managers have about the game and whether they will allow the game on the lands they manage. Land managers DO check caches placed on their lands and they DO read the logs. If they see logs that mention breaking the rules they are far more likely to simply ban caches from their lands. That is how it hurts others and the game.

I agree with Flask and Wrastro on this one. Online logs DO reflect on the game... in fact online logs detailing the transgressions of finders cost South Carolina cachers much of their state. A State Legislator used online logs to ban caching in many areas.

 

Do what you want but keep it out of the online logs.

Edited November 29, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+_Shaddow_]

I mean really, is it hurting anyone?

 

It could hurt the perception of the sport in the eyes of the authorities. We can only enjoy this sport if we are in their good graces.

 

 

VERY well stated!

 

All the land we use to place caches is managed by someone (owner or representative) and without their buy-in, we're dead in the water.

[+_Shaddow_]

 

Do what you want but keep it out of the online logs.

 

Isn't the real issue to reduce the breaking of land rules?

 

A land owner / manager doesn't need to read logs to know when geo-cachers are causing problems on their lands.

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

You have no clue what I support, please don't pretend you do. What I DO support is OBEYING THE LAW...simple. And I believe I already told you I'd delete any log stating illegal actions were taken. Since I'm not an LEO, what else would you like me to do?

 

I suppose you'd like me to applaud you for "coming clean"? HARDLY. I'd applaud you if you acted responsibly, that would be worthy of applause as opposed to "coming clean". I don't make a habit of applauding criminals.

 

You're right, that comment should have been directed to briansnat; my apologies.

You said you you delete any postings when you know the finder broke rules to do it. Great! That's exactly what I'm asking for. Unless anyone has any better ideas...

 

Back off. I don't care about your applause. I wasn't coming clean. But I am man enough to say it straight about what I do, good or bad, rather then cowardly hide behind lies or cover ups. I suppose you want everyone to believe that you never speed. If you do, even once in a while, then by your thinking, your just as much a criminal.

 

Posting it in the log could lead to an owner seeing it and causing problems for the cache owner, this is why I will delete any logs even hinting of after hours finds. Man enough to come clean...just don't do it would be much better. Enough of these logs seen by a landowner could lead to bigger problems. I know how much work went into the MiGO/DNR/State Parks deal, it was a long and hard process which now benefits all cachers. With my work with a local state park, I have built a lasting relationship which has allowed use of their lands, use of their pavilions and a yearly camp/cache event (and this is just in my local park, this happens all across Michigan)...I'd hate to see a few lawbreakers come in and ruin that for everyone.

 

This isn't about me, what I do has no bearing on the topic at hand, but I hardly said I was a saint, my friend!

[+_Shaddow_]

 

You have no clue what I support, please don't pretend you do. What I DO support is OBEYING THE LAW...simple. And I believe I already told you I'd delete any log stating illegal actions were taken. Since I'm not an LEO, what else would you like me to do?

 

I suppose you'd like me to applaud you for "coming clean"? HARDLY. I'd applaud you if you acted responsibly, that would be worthy of applause as opposed to "coming clean". I don't make a habit of applauding criminals.

 

You're right, that comment should have been directed to briansnat; my apologies.

You said you you delete any postings when you know the finder broke rules to do it. Great! That's exactly what I'm asking for. Unless anyone has any better ideas...

 

Back off. I don't care about your applause. I wasn't coming clean. But I am man enough to say it straight about what I do, good or bad, rather then cowardly hide behind lies or cover ups. I suppose you want everyone to believe that you never speed. If you do, even once in a while, then by your thinking, your just as much a criminal.

 

Posting it in the log could lead to an owner seeing it and causing problems for the cache owner, this is why I will delete any logs even hinting of after hours finds. Man enough to come clean...just don't do it would be much better. Enough of these logs seen by a landowner could lead to bigger problems. I know how much work went into the MiGO/DNR/State Parks deal, it was a long and hard process which now benefits all cachers. With my work with a local state park, I have built a lasting relationship which has allowed use of their lands, use of their pavilions and a yearly camp/cache event (and this is just in my local park, this happens all across Michigan)...I'd hate to see a few lawbreakers come in and ruin that for everyone.

 

This isn't about me, what I do has no bearing on the topic at hand, but I hardly said I was a saint, my friend!

 

Sounds like we are on the same page

And also you are doing what you can about it

 

I think the next step is what the greater geocaching community should do about it. Doing nothing is also a choice; a choice to set back and let it happen. Which will affect us all over time.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

 

Do what you want but keep it out of the online logs.

 

Isn't the real issue to reduce the breaking of land rules?

 

A land owner / manager doesn't need to read logs to know when geo-cachers are causing problems on their lands.

Not really. Ask any cop how regulating people's behavior is working out... it can't be done.

 

Since we can't have much if any effect reducing the breakage of rules we do what is perhaps more effective... keeping it out of the online logs.

[+flask]

i think some people are confused by some people not wishing to allow logs that indicate a cacher has gone in to a park during closed hours.

 

i think that while one might not wish to let these logs stand at all, the cache owners wishing to have the logs be edited are subscribing to the conservative view that a cache find is a cache find, and that logs should not be deleted without very good cause.

 

it is right not to want logs to cheerfully admit having broken law or park rule, and where cachers have gone against that, it is right to ask them to keep quiet about it for decency's sake.

 

to "courageously" and unapologetically "come clean" doesn't help us much in terms of being perceived as a legal activity. if you've broken the law to get a cache, for pete's sake shut up about it in your log.

 

best scenario: obey the law.

second best scenario: pretend you've obeyed the law.

 

Flask--you bring up a good point here. A find is a find. Let em log it however they want. If they want to admit to breaking the law in their log, why not let em? I mean really, is it hurting anyone? And what are the chances that an LEO is going to use that as evidence against them for being in a closed park?

 

There are too many people here who want to go about telling everyone else how they have to play the game. This on a site that HAS NO RULES -- ONLY GUIDELINES!!

 

Get over your selves and let people play and log how they want to. Is it really hurting you?

 

i'm going to suggest lessons in reading comprehension for you.

 

 

unrelated to the total failure to understand what i wrote, but still related to the topic:

 

i wanted to do a cache once after closing hours of a park. there happened to be three police cruisers there.

 

"excuse me," i said, " very politely approaching the officers, "will you mind if i go look in those shrubs? it's for a game."

 

"go right ahead", they said. "have a good time."

 

there are a lot of boundaries that can reasonably be stretched. it is STILL not a good idea to leave a written record of gaily traipsing into closed areas. it's just begging for trouble.

[4wheelin_fool]

This whole thing really comes down to people weighing the risks of doing things and deciding whether it's worth the risk or not. You place a cache in a park in my area, and I guarantee that someone is going to go through that sign if the cache is published during the closed hours.

 

You must be a very brave and daring risk taker.

 

Oh but wait, you don't have any finds or hides logged...

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I'll say one thing, I am amazed to meet a community of people who have never, ever in their lifetimes broken a rule, been somewhere they shouldn't and followed the direction of every sign they have ever read.

 

Truly, those people are worthy of throwing the first stone, and branding anyone who has ever so much as stepped on the grass when they were told not to, or gone through a hole in a fence, a CRIMINAL.

 

I'm sure glad, as a mere lowly criminal, to be amongst such fine individuals and perfect model citizens of society.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I'll say one thing, I am amazed to meet a community of people who have never, ever in their lifetimes broken a rule, been somewhere they shouldn't and followed the direction of every sign they have ever read.

 

Truly, those people are worthy of throwing the first stone, and branding anyone who has ever so much as stepped on the grass when they were told not to, or gone through a hole in a fence, a CRIMINAL.

 

I'm sure glad, as a mere lowly criminal, to be amongst such fine individuals and perfect model citizens of society.

 

Snarkiness aside...what's your point? Are you saying all must be perfect before asking for simple following of laws so that caching doesn't get a black eye? Are you saying that, since no one is perfect, we'd better to just go ahead and break any law we feel like? I must not be able to follow your train of thought.

 

When ysomeone purposely and willfully break a law for a GAME, how does that speak to ytheir character? If a GAME is so important you feel the need to break laws....

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I'll say one thing, I am amazed to meet a community of people who have never, ever in their lifetimes broken a rule, been somewhere they shouldn't and followed the direction of every sign they have ever read.

 

Truly, those people are worthy of throwing the first stone, and branding anyone who has ever so much as stepped on the grass when they were told not to, or gone through a hole in a fence, a CRIMINAL.

 

I'm sure glad, as a mere lowly criminal, to be amongst such fine individuals and perfect model citizens of society.

 

Snarkiness aside...what's your point? Are you saying all must be perfect before asking for simple following of laws so that caching doesn't get a black eye? Are you saying that, since no one is perfect, we'd better to just go ahead and break any law we feel like? I must not be able to follow your train of thought.

 

When ysomeone purposely and willfully break a law for a GAME, how does that speak to ytheir character? If a GAME is so important you feel the need to break laws....

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by snarkiness.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I'll say one thing, I am amazed to meet a community of people who have never, ever in their lifetimes broken a rule, been somewhere they shouldn't and followed the direction of every sign they have ever read.

 

Truly, those people are worthy of throwing the first stone, and branding anyone who has ever so much as stepped on the grass when they were told not to, or gone through a hole in a fence, a CRIMINAL.

 

I'm sure glad, as a mere lowly criminal, to be amongst such fine individuals and perfect model citizens of society.

 

Snarkiness aside...what's your point? Are you saying all must be perfect before asking for simple following of laws so that caching doesn't get a black eye? Are you saying that, since no one is perfect, we'd better to just go ahead and break any law we feel like? I must not be able to follow your train of thought.

 

When ysomeone purposely and willfully break a law for a GAME, how does that speak to ytheir character? If a GAME is so important you feel the need to break laws....

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by snarkiness.

 

You mean that wasn't a load of sarcasm in your last post??

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I'll say one thing, I am amazed to meet a community of people who have never, ever in their lifetimes broken a rule, been somewhere they shouldn't and followed the direction of every sign they have ever read.

 

Truly, those people are worthy of throwing the first stone, and branding anyone who has ever so much as stepped on the grass when they were told not to, or gone through a hole in a fence, a CRIMINAL.

 

I'm sure glad, as a mere lowly criminal, to be amongst such fine individuals and perfect model citizens of society.

 

Snarkiness aside...what's your point? Are you saying all must be perfect before asking for simple following of laws so that caching doesn't get a black eye? Are you saying that, since no one is perfect, we'd better to just go ahead and break any law we feel like? I must not be able to follow your train of thought.

 

When ysomeone purposely and willfully break a law for a GAME, how does that speak to ytheir character? If a GAME is so important you feel the need to break laws....

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by snarkiness.

 

You mean that wasn't a load of sarcasm in your last post??

 

Am I not a criminal?

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

 

Am I not a criminal?

 

You want me to answer that? You don't know yourself?

Edited November 29, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+sbell111]

I'll say one thing, I am amazed to meet a community of people who have never, ever in their lifetimes broken a rule, been somewhere they shouldn't and followed the direction of every sign they have ever read.

 

Truly, those people are worthy of throwing the first stone, and branding anyone who has ever so much as stepped on the grass when they were told not to, or gone through a hole in a fence, a CRIMINAL.

 

I'm sure glad, as a mere lowly criminal, to be amongst such fine individuals and perfect model citizens of society.

 

Snarkiness aside...what's your point? Are you saying all must be perfect before asking for simple following of laws so that caching doesn't get a black eye? Are you saying that, since no one is perfect, we'd better to just go ahead and break any law we feel like? I must not be able to follow your train of thought.

 

When ysomeone purposely and willfully break a law for a GAME, how does that speak to ytheir character? If a GAME is so important you feel the need to break laws....

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by snarkiness.

 

You mean that wasn't a load of sarcasm in your last post??

 

Am I not a criminal?

Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy Criminal.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

 

 

Am I not a criminal?

 

You want me to answer that? You don't know yourself?

 

How come you are suddenly so unsure? You seemed to have a very sure opinion and convinced of your views...

 

It's was a rhetorical question, but now I'd really like to hear your answer. Yes, please enlighten me!

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I'll say one thing, I am amazed to meet a community of people who have never, ever in their lifetimes broken a rule, been somewhere they shouldn't and followed the direction of every sign they have ever read.

 

Truly, those people are worthy of throwing the first stone, and branding anyone who has ever so much as stepped on the grass when they were told not to, or gone through a hole in a fence, a CRIMINAL.

 

I'm sure glad, as a mere lowly criminal, to be amongst such fine individuals and perfect model citizens of society.

 

Snarkiness aside...what's your point? Are you saying all must be perfect before asking for simple following of laws so that caching doesn't get a black eye? Are you saying that, since no one is perfect, we'd better to just go ahead and break any law we feel like? I must not be able to follow your train of thought.

 

When ysomeone purposely and willfully break a law for a GAME, how does that speak to ytheir character? If a GAME is so important you feel the need to break laws....

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by snarkiness.

 

You mean that wasn't a load of sarcasm in your last post??

 

Am I not a criminal?

Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy Criminal.

 

I had to look that reference up.. not one we use here over the pond.

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

 

Am I not a criminal?

 

You want me to answer that? You don't know yourself?

 

How come you are suddenly so unsure? You seemed to have a very sure opinion and convinced of your views...

 

It's was a rhetorical question, but now I'd really like to hear your answer. Yes, please enlighten me!

 

Having never met you, all I can say is if the shoe fits, my friend!

 

Look, if you break the law, you are obviously a crminal in the sense of the law. How you act is completely up to you, if you'd rather not be a criminal, don't break the law. Seems rather simple really!!

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

 

 

Am I not a criminal?

 

You want me to answer that? You don't know yourself?

 

How come you are suddenly so unsure? You seemed to have a very sure opinion and convinced of your views...

 

It's was a rhetorical question, but now I'd really like to hear your answer. Yes, please enlighten me!

 

Having never met you, all I can say is if the shoe fits, my friend!

 

Look, if you break the law, you are obviously a crminal in the sense of the law. How you act is completely up to you, if you'd rather not be a criminal, don't break the law. Seems rather simple really!!

 

Well done, you found a way to say it!

 

Now here's the harder question... have you never broken a rule?

 

If we break just one rule, we bring all of geocaching into disrepute right? So, as a geocacher have you ever broken a rule?

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

 

Am I not a criminal?

 

You want me to answer that? You don't know yourself?

 

How come you are suddenly so unsure? You seemed to have a very sure opinion and convinced of your views...

 

It's was a rhetorical question, but now I'd really like to hear your answer. Yes, please enlighten me!

 

Having never met you, all I can say is if the shoe fits, my friend!

 

Look, if you break the law, you are obviously a crminal in the sense of the law. How you act is completely up to you, if you'd rather not be a criminal, don't break the law. Seems rather simple really!!

 

Well done, you found a way to say it!

 

Now here's the harder question... have you never broken a rule?

 

If we break just one rule, we bring all of geocaching into disrepute right? So, as a geocacher have you ever broken a rule?

 

Are we going to play another game of "I demand the answer"? I just told another I'd not be playing that game. If you have a for instance, OK, but...

 

My view...although I have already stated it...no cache is worth breaking a law for. If you find yourself outside a park after closing hours, stay outside! Other than that, I don't know what you'd like. OBVIOUSLY, some laws will not reflect on caching (speeding for one, but I suppose most of us know this).

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

 

 

Am I not a criminal?

 

You want me to answer that? You don't know yourself?

 

How come you are suddenly so unsure? You seemed to have a very sure opinion and convinced of your views...

 

It's was a rhetorical question, but now I'd really like to hear your answer. Yes, please enlighten me!

 

Having never met you, all I can say is if the shoe fits, my friend!

 

Look, if you break the law, you are obviously a crminal in the sense of the law. How you act is completely up to you, if you'd rather not be a criminal, don't break the law. Seems rather simple really!!

 

Well done, you found a way to say it!

 

Now here's the harder question... have you never broken a rule?

 

If we break just one rule, we bring all of geocaching into disrepute right? So, as a geocacher have you ever broken a rule?

 

Are we going to play another game of "I demand the answer"? I just told another I'd not be playing that game. If you have a for instance, OK, but...

 

My view...although I have already stated it...no cache is worth breaking a law for. If you find yourself outside a park after closing hours, stay outside! Other than that, I don't know what you'd like. OBVIOUSLY, some laws will not reflect on caching (speeding for one, but I suppose most of us know this).

 

Is it really so hard to answer the question?

 

"No cache is worth break a law for" - then this would include ALL the law, not just bits of the law which may be psychologically closer to geocaching than others.

 

So the question, which you do not wish to answer, is a valid question.

 

And your refusal to answer the question, even with a simple "yes" or "no", speaks volumes.

 

You don't happen to live in a glass house do you?

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

Is it really so hard to answer the question?

 

"No cache is worth break a law for" - then this would include ALL the law, not just bits of the law which may be psychologically closer to geocaching than others.

 

So the question, which you do not wish to answer, is a valid question.

 

And your refusal to answer the question, even with a simple "yes" or "no", speaks volumes.

 

You don't happen to live in a glass house do you?

 

And you're pretending I didn't answer that speaks volumes as well. I believe I have stated my opinion. If it bothers you, sorry, but it's my opinion. If you have a specific point, please feel free to make it, but this sounds like more demanding and badgering than anything else.

 

And your inference that I think I am above others...you don't know me, my friend, so what's your beef?

 

I don't see me refusing to answer, I ANSWERED, please don't play games or I will simply ignore you! Other than that, draw your own conclusions, I gave my opinion!

Edited November 29, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

 

Is it really so hard to answer the question?

 

"No cache is worth break a law for" - then this would include ALL the law, not just bits of the law which may be psychologically closer to geocaching than others.

 

So the question, which you do not wish to answer, is a valid question.

 

And your refusal to answer the question, even with a simple "yes" or "no", speaks volumes.

 

You don't happen to live in a glass house do you?

 

And you're pretending I didn't answer that speaks volumes as well. I believe I have stated my opinion. If it bothers you, sorry, but it's my opinion. If you have a specific point, please feel free to make it, but this sounds like more demanding and badgering than anything else.

 

And your inference that I think I am above others...you don't know me, my friend, so what's your beef?

 

I don't see me refusing to answer, I ANSWERED, please don't play games or I will simply ignore you! Other than that, draw your own conclusions, I gave my opinion!

 

I'm only asking questions... there's no need to get angry if your position is backed up by behaviour.

 

I have happily allowed you to infer my criminal status, without resorting to pettiness. You are the one who responded to my post, from that I took it you were happy to discuss the issue.

 

If you are not a criminal, and have never broken a rule as a geocacher, then why do you feel the need to be defensive.

 

If I was not a criminal, and had a perfect record of obeying the rules, then I'd be happy to declare this and correct anyone!

[+sbell111]

 

Is it really so hard to answer the question?

 

"No cache is worth break a law for" - then this would include ALL the law, not just bits of the law which may be psychologically closer to geocaching than others.

 

So the question, which you do not wish to answer, is a valid question.

 

And your refusal to answer the question, even with a simple "yes" or "no", speaks volumes.

 

You don't happen to live in a glass house do you?

 

And you're pretending I didn't answer that speaks volumes as well. I believe I have stated my opinion. If it bothers you, sorry, but it's my opinion. If you have a specific point, please feel free to make it, but this sounds like more demanding and badgering than anything else.

 

And your inference that I think I am above others...you don't know me, my friend, so what's your beef?

 

I don't see me refusing to answer, I ANSWERED, please don't play games or I will simply ignore you! Other than that, draw your own conclusions, I gave my opinion!

 

I'm only asking questions... there's no need to get angry if your position is backed up by behaviour.

 

I have happily allowed you to infer my criminal status, without resorting to pettiness. You are the one who responded to my post, from that I took it you were happy to discuss the issue.

 

If you are not a criminal, and have never broken a rule as a geocacher, then why do you feel the need to be defensive.

 

If I was not a criminal, and had a perfect record of obeying the rules, then I'd be happy to declare this and correct anyone!

Not that I really care much about this issue, but what you are experiencing is what happens when Roddy backs himself into a corner. When he realizes that his underlying position can't withstand debate, he gets huffy and refuses to have the discussion. He'll still continue to post, but he won't back up his positions.

 

It is what it is.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Sbell comes pretending he doesn't care. Sbell has been harassing for a few days now, take his post with a grain of salt...it is exactly what it is. Truly, your game here is remarkably like his....and I'm about to tell you just as I told him...play your games alone.

 

I haven't inferred ANYTHING about you sir, I don't KNOW you. I have stated my opinion, like it, fine. Don't? TOUGH! You keep pretending I said I was pure as the driven snow...can you please show me where? Also, while at it, please show me where I infered you were a criminal. I said that you were the only one who can answer that, so please do.

 

Truly, it sounds like you have an axe to grind. If you have something to say to me, stop playing your games and man up.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[4wheelin_fool]

Sbell comes pretending he doesn't care. Sbell has been harassing for a few days now, take his post with a grain of salt...it is exactly what it is. Truly, your game here is remarkably like his....and I'm about to tell you just as I told him...play your games alone.

 

I haven't inferred ANYTHING about you sir, I don't KNOW you. I have stated my opinion, like it, fine. Don't? TOUGH! You keep pretending I said I was pure as the driven snow...can you please show me where? Also, while at it, please show me where I infered you were a criminal. I said that you were the only one who can answer that, so please do.

 

Truly, it sounds like you have an axe to grind. If you have something to say to me, stop playing your games and man up.

Steve! Rodney! Play nice now!

 

If Team Fitz wants to think of themself as a criminal, just let them. He's attempting to paste big, ugly labels where they shouldn't be.

 

If you break a law while geocaching, it certainly makes a difference which law it is, and how often, and the motive, every park system is a little bit different. It doesn't reflect on the group as a whole everytime, but certainly has the potential to. Each instance chips away at the non-geocachers perception of the game when they find out.

[+fizzymagic]

I'm sure glad, as a mere lowly criminal, to be amongst such fine individuals and perfect model citizens of society.

Good job there, starting out with ad hominem.

 

I'm certain that will encourage others to take your contributions to the discussion more seriously.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Sbell comes pretending he doesn't care. Sbell has been harassing for a few days now, take his post with a grain of salt...it is exactly what it is. Truly, your game here is remarkably like his....and I'm about to tell you just as I told him...play your games alone.

 

I haven't inferred ANYTHING about you sir, I don't KNOW you. I have stated my opinion, like it, fine. Don't? TOUGH! You keep pretending I said I was pure as the driven snow...can you please show me where? Also, while at it, please show me where I infered you were a criminal. I said that you were the only one who can answer that, so please do.

 

Truly, it sounds like you have an axe to grind. If you have something to say to me, stop playing your games and man up.

Steve! Rodney! Play nice now!

 

If Team Fitz wants to think of themself as a criminal, just let them. He's attempting to paste big, ugly labels where they shouldn't be.

 

If you break a law while geocaching, it certainly makes a difference which law it is, and how often, and the motive, every park system is a little bit different. It doesn't reflect on the group as a whole everytime, but certainly has the potential to. Each instance chips away at the non-geocachers perception of the game when they find out.

 

Not sure who this "Rodney" is. My name is Rod, Rockin Roddy or Roddy.

 

But I pretty much agree with the rest, THANKS!!

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I'm sure glad, as a mere lowly criminal, to be amongst such fine individuals and perfect model citizens of society.

Good job there, starting out with ad hominem.

 

I'm certain that will encourage others to take your contributions to the discussion more seriously.

 

Do you know what ad hominem means?

[+briansnat]

I'm sure glad, as a mere lowly criminal, to be amongst such fine individuals and perfect model citizens of society.

Good job there, starting out with ad hominem.

 

I'm certain that will encourage others to take your contributions to the discussion more seriously.

 

Do you know what ad hominem means?

[Clan Riffster]

If we break just one rule, we bring all of geocaching into disrepute right?

So the question, which you do not wish to answer, is a valid question.

No, it's a silly question. Anyone with an IQ over 4 knows that breaking "any" rule won't bring disrepute onto our game. For instance, when I drove to Michael's Arts & Crafts last night, I neglected to wear my seatbelt. Under your theory, this cast a bad light on geocaching. My windshield on my truck has been cracked for some time. Again, your theory would insist that my cracked windshield is, right at this very moment, bringing geocaching into disrepute. Last week I failed to use my turn signal at an intersection. Oh, the humanity!

 

If you can come up with a question that's not silly, I'll be happy to answer you.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

If we break just one rule, we bring all of geocaching into disrepute right?

So the question, which you do not wish to answer, is a valid question.

No, it's a silly question. Anyone with an IQ over 4 knows that breaking "any" rule won't bring disrepute onto our game. For instance, when I drove to Michael's Arts & Crafts last night, I neglected to wear my seatbelt. Under your theory, this cast a bad light on geocaching. My windshield on my truck has been cracked for some time. Again, your theory would insist that my cracked windshield is, right at this very moment, bringing geocaching into disrepute. Last week I failed to use my turn signal at an intersection. Oh, the humanity!

 

If you can come up with a question that's not silly, I'll be happy to answer you.

 

Not my theory.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

... Not sure who this "Rodney" is. My name is Rod, Rockin Roddy or Roddy.

It says 'Rockin Roddy' on your birth certificate? Really?

[Clan Riffster]

Not my theory.

Really? Have you read post # 130? It sure looks like it was written by you.

If we break just one rule, we bring all of geocaching into disrepute right?

Unless there's another TeamFitz out there?

Edited November 30, 2009 by Clan Riffster

[+gpsfun]

Folks, this topic is drifting pretty far off course at times. The OP raised a reasonable question; please stay on topic. The interpersonal comments are counterproductive.

 

Thank you.

[Clan Riffster]

Thanx for steering us back on course!

 

It is my belief that breaking park rules, simply to hunt a cache, then bragging about your illicit activities on the cache page can cause harm to this little game we all love to play. As someone who has worked hand in hand with land managers to get our game allowed on their property, I can say with certainty that many land managers do read the logs on caches on the properties they manage. One of their concerns is the belief that cachers are a rogue bunch who will do anything to score a find, and that by allowing this activity to take place, they are opening themselves up to all manner of problems. When they see a log that paraphrases "I broke your stoopid rules so I could find a film can", their misconceptions are strengthened even further.

[+flask]

The interpersonal comments are counterproductive.

 

 

and yet they are very amusing.

 

there's no cagefighting on tv tonight; what else am i supposed to watch?

[+Rockin Roddy]

Thanx for steering us back on course!

 

It is my belief that breaking park rules, simply to hunt a cache, then bragging about your illicit activities on the cache page can cause harm to this little game we all love to play. As someone who has worked hand in hand with land managers to get our game allowed on their property, I can say with certainty that many land managers do read the logs on caches on the properties they manage. One of their concerns is the belief that cachers are a rogue bunch who will do anything to score a find, and that by allowing this activity to take place, they are opening themselves up to all manner of problems. When they see a log that paraphrases "I broke your stoopid rules so I could find a film can", their misconceptions are strengthened even further.

 

I know my local state parks crew pay attention to the logs of caches on their property, I showed them how! I also told them to get ahold of me immediately if they saw any problems. I also take the time to report (and inform the owner and explain how to get permission etc) any new caches that go on their property without permission (I know when permission is given since I was handed the power to grant permission and I alone have permission to place hides on their property). We (the state park crew and myself) have a really good relationship and I work hard to keep it that way! btw, when I say I have the power to grant permission, the CO still needs to apply for the permit...truly, it's more the right to OK a hide and send the CO off after the permit!

[Mr.Yuck]

This whole thing really comes down to people weighing the risks of doing things and deciding whether it's worth the risk or not. You place a cache in a park in my area, and I guarantee that someone is going to go through that sign if the cache is published during the closed hours.

 

You must be a very brave and daring risk taker.

 

Oh but wait, you don't have any finds or hides logged...

 

Where's Captain Clorox, sock puppet terminator, when you need him?