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FTF versus park hours


_Shaddow_
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I've noticed that a lot of cache posting occur well after dark, at least during this part of the year when daylight hours are shortest. And many of these caches are located within parks with posted hours. So a FTFer has a choice, either break the rules or wait until morning hoping another FTFer that is willing to break the rules doesn't make the find during the night.

 

So the questions are:

  1. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to get a FTF?
  2. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to search for a non-FTF?

 

I think a lot of people that break the rules usually have something similar to this to say: "I had a great time breaking the park rules maybe the geo sheriff will give me a ticket. We all play this game a little differant then the next person but I try not to worry how the other people play." (a direct quote from a log posting today)

 

Then other side says for one that it's not fair to break the rules. That breaking the rules by one or a few gives all geocachers a bad reputation and even puts the game at risk for bans or more rules. If so then the idea that what I do doesn't affect you so leave me alone is just plane false and only self-serving.

 

Please limit your posts to discussion of the topic and avoid flaming

 

Looking forward to see where this goes!

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I've noticed that a lot of cache posting occur well after dark, at least during this part of the year when daylight hours are shortest. And many of these caches are located within parks with posted hours. So a FTFer has a choice, either break the rules or wait until morning hoping another FTFer that is willing to break the rules doesn't make the find during the night.

 

So the questions are:

  1. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to get a FTF?
  2. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to search for a non-FTF?

I think a lot of people that break the rules usually have something similar to this to say: "I had a great time breaking the park rules maybe the geo sheriff will give me a ticket. We all play this game a little differant then the next person but I try not to worry how the other people play." (a direct quote from a log posting today)

 

Then other side says for one that it's not fair to break the rules. That breaking the rules by one or a few gives all geocachers a bad reputation and even puts the game at risk for bans or more rules. If so then the idea that what I do doesn't affect you so leave me alone is just plane false and only self-serving.

 

Please limit your posts to discussion of the topic and avoid flaming

 

Looking forward to see where this goes!

 

Yehaa 2nd To Post! 1st to Reply! Argh beaten to it!

 

Since I just did exactly this, yet I was less brazen in my log... I'm going to watch this thread with my flame-retardant suit on!

 

:laughing:

 

I don't really care that much about FTFs, I have four but have passed on quite a few, I just like the rush every now and then.

 

FLAME ON! :laughing:

Edited by _TeamFitz_
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If we want geocachers to look like good people we cant be braking rules. We have set daytime only caches out there and people have hunted them at 12:00 A.M. This we don't like. Our reason is when we ask a land/business owner if there is anything we should let cachers know. They say "we would like it if noone was here at night" we tell them we will make it daytime only. Then Joe schmo comes along and breaks the rules and guess what. Now the land/business owner has a bad taste for geocaching and thous who do it. That's all we are going to say and feel free to challenge it if you like.

 

Cachensfun

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Some managers keep an eye on the caches in their parks. Posting something like that to a log is really dumb, even if you are dumb enough to break the park rules to find the cache. We have several cache hiders around here that specifically state on their cache page that any logs indicating caching outside of park hours will be deleted.

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Since I just did exactly this, yet I was less brazen in my log... I'm going to watch this thread with my flame-retardant suit on!

 

 

FLAME ON!

 

Why is this even being discussed?

 

because obviously some people didn't get the memo.

 

hey, pal! a moral handicap does not qualify you for the parking space!

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I've noticed that a lot of cache posting occur well after dark, at least during this part of the year when daylight hours are shortest. And many of these caches are located within parks with posted hours. So a FTFer has a choice, either break the rules or wait until morning hoping another FTFer that is willing to break the rules doesn't make the find during the night.

 

So the questions are:

  1. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to get a FTF?
  2. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to search for a non-FTF?

I think a lot of people that break the rules usually have something similar to this to say: "I had a great time breaking the park rules maybe the geo sheriff will give me a ticket. We all play this game a little differant then the next person but I try not to worry how the other people play." (a direct quote from a log posting today)

 

Then other side says for one that it's not fair to break the rules. That breaking the rules by one or a few gives all geocachers a bad reputation and even puts the game at risk for bans or more rules. If so then the idea that what I do doesn't affect you so leave me alone is just plane false and only self-serving.

 

Please limit your posts to discussion of the topic and avoid flaming

 

Looking forward to see where this goes!

 

Wow! My cache makes headlines... I only have to say read my note on my page...

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It is not OK to enter a park when it is closed if you're a private citizen. It doesn't matter if you're after a cache, a FTF, or a stroll. If you disagree, go talk to your local city council or whoever is in charge of the park. Why is this even being discussed?

 

It is being discussed because this is the venue for a discussion. That is what the forums are for. It is not allowed on the cache page, so Groundspeak prefers to let us discuss topics of interest HERE! Are you going to play "Forum Moderator" and tell us that we can't talk about a certain subject? Good Luck.

 

As far as entering a park at night to persue an FTF after hours, I too have done it, although I have been stopped by police for doing so. With this in mind, and the fact that, like Ham Radio, we are embassadors of our Hobby and should portray an attitude of community friendliness, one should abide by the rules and stay out of the park until it is legal to enter. I will be placing a generic note on all of my future caches when they are placed in a park, stating the hours of availability and stressing that any finds done during hours of closing will be deleted.

 

It is just common sense.....but then again, common sense is anything but common.

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Breaking park rules for a FTF puts many geocaches and land manger policies at risk. Should never be done. Not for a FTF or at any other time. Cachers should have some small amount of respect.

 

Agreed

 

Some managers keep an eye on the caches in their parks. Posting something like that to a log is really dumb, even if you are dumb enough to break the park rules to find the cache. We have several cache hiders around here that specifically state on their cache page that any logs indicating caching outside of park hours will be deleted.

 

If there is ever a time where cachers should follow the rules, this is it. I wish there was a mechanism to suspend accounts for cachers who knowingly break the law in pursuit of FTFs.

 

It is not OK to enter a park when it is closed if you're a private citizen. It doesn't matter if you're after a cache, a FTF, or a stroll. If you disagree, go talk to your local city council or whoever is in charge of the park. Why is this even being discussed?

 

Because many cachers are stupid/careless, and ignore rules / laws in their quest for FTF stats.

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I have my share of first logs, but FTF does not give any special dispensation. "Your honor, I was just getting there first" does not work. While I have made an exception or two to the general rules of common sense in situations not involving parks, for other reasons, it would have been equally invalid should there have been a problem.

 

As to deleting the log, I would delete the log of anyone who uses those three initials, particularly with wahoos and extra smileys. But I restrain myself.

Edited by Erickson
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I've noticed that a lot of cache posting occur well after dark, at least during this part of the year when daylight hours are shortest. And many of these caches are located within parks with posted hours. So a FTFer has a choice, either break the rules or wait until morning hoping another FTFer that is willing to break the rules doesn't make the find during the night.

 

So the questions are:

  1. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to get a FTF?
  2. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to search for a non-FTF?

I think a lot of people that break the rules usually have something similar to this to say: "I had a great time breaking the park rules maybe the geo sheriff will give me a ticket. We all play this game a little differant then the next person but I try not to worry how the other people play." (a direct quote from a log posting today)

 

Then other side says for one that it's not fair to break the rules. That breaking the rules by one or a few gives all geocachers a bad reputation and even puts the game at risk for bans or more rules. If so then the idea that what I do doesn't affect you so leave me alone is just plane false and only self-serving.

 

Please limit your posts to discussion of the topic and avoid flaming

 

Looking forward to see where this goes!

 

Wow! My cache makes headlines... I only have to say read my note on my page...

 

Yeah, your cache made headlines, and your audit log is going to show page views from all over the world.

 

That's um, an interesting "username" the militant, law breaking FTF'er has there. :laughing:

 

There should be no debate here, but I guess common sense isn't so common. This whole thing comes up relatively often, and I remember some Geo-drama in my area over the issue in 2005, and we did a pretty good job of "self-policing" ourselves after that. Of course that was 4 years ago, and people do it again now. I suppose I can be expecting some more local Geo-drama, especially now that dusk comes at 5:30 PM.

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Wow! My cache makes headlines... I only have to say read my note on my page...

 

Ahhhh....so you are the perpetrator of this mess! The cache cops are on their way to your house right now! Better get your affairs in order.

 

Yes this is all because of my new page. Geo cops think there smarter then I, I am ready with the eraser...

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Perhaps another question to be asked is this.

 

The park has posted hours until 11:00pm. It gets dark at 5:30pm.

 

Is it wrong to go into the park after dark but before the posted closing hours?

 

I hope not as I do it quite a bit in the winter. However if a park closes at dusk and it is dark I will pass on the cache.

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It is not OK to enter a park when it is closed if you're a private citizen. It doesn't matter if you're after a cache, a FTF, or a stroll. If you disagree, go talk to your local city council or whoever is in charge of the park. Why is this even being discussed?

 

It is being discussed because this is the venue for a discussion. That is what the forums are for. It is not allowed on the cache page, so Groundspeak prefers to let us discuss topics of interest HERE! Are you going to play "Forum Moderator" and tell us that we can't talk about a certain subject? Good Luck.

By your own definition, you are also playing forum moderator with your comment.

 

However, I'd like to point out that what I meant was that the two questions asked in the OP is totally unnecessary as the answer should be blindingly obvious. I never implied that asking obvious questions is forbidden.

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I have to take some responsibility for this as I posted a note on Hike A Photo's cache page complaining not abouth the FTF but about the fact that our local reviewer always releases caches in the middle of the night which I believe, does not condone this behavior, but at the very least results in it because for some the drive for FTF is greater than the law.

 

Aside from that, caching in parks after hours is wrong and I have started, before this came up, making a statement on my cache pages that cachers suspected of such would have their logs deleted and would be repoerted to Groundspeak. Cache police aside, if we don't police ourselvers then we risk losing this game that we all enjoy as business owners and land managers become aware of our rule breaking tendencies.

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Aside from that, caching in parks after hours is wrong and I have started, before this came up, making a statement on my cache pages that cachers suspected of such would have their logs deleted and would be repoerted to Groundspeak. Cache police aside, if we don't police ourselvers then we risk losing this game that we all enjoy as business owners and land managers become aware of our rule breaking tendencies.

 

Amen

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Wow! My cache makes headlines... I only have to say read my note on my page...

 

Ahhhh....so you are the perpetrator of this mess! The cache cops are on their way to your house right now! Better get your affairs in order.

 

Yes this is all because of my new page. Geo cops think there smarter then I, I am ready with the eraser...

 

No not at all, this comes up all the time and it just happens that your cache is the one being discussed. And even then, it's not the cache, its the hunters (FTF or otherwise).

 

FTFers are not the only ones who cache outside of posted hours but there certainly a lot more incentive. The incentive is there, whether the FTF or the smiley, and no deterrent. CO's would cache a lot of flack for deleting logs. Also, they loss a 'found' number... Again, the incentive there is to allow logs to stand.

 

So what to do about it?

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I have to take some responsibility for this as I posted a note on Hike A Photo's cache page complaining not abouth the FTF but about the fact that our local reviewer always releases caches in the middle of the night which I believe, does not condone this behavior, but at the very least results in it because for some the drive for FTF is greater than the law.

<.snip.>

Since the cache reviewers are volunteers, some of them only have time to review during odd hours.

 

I'm a volunteer reviewer and retired from the corporate world, which gives me flexibility in my reviewing schedule. When I see a cache that is in an area with restricted hours I will hold it over until the next day before publishing it. I have become even more careful about this after a geocacher got caught jumping the gate before opening hours at one of our state parks.

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Many times, I have hunted caches in parks that may or may not have posted hours. However, if I did not see the posted hours, I may (or may not) have been in the park after hours.

 

If a geocacher is in a park after hours and a LEO takes notice of it, that is on the geocacher. It does not say anything about the larger community nor should it affect his find (per the guidelines).

 

Honestly, I suspect that most of these threads are more about some getting beaten to a FTF than this activity getting a black mark.

Edited by sbell111
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If a geocacher is in a park after hours and a LEO takes notice of it, that is on the geocacher. It does not say anything about the larger community nor should it affect his find (per the guidelines).

 

I'm pretty sure that a LEO does not follow the guidelines of GS and it reflects badly on all of us.

I would like to see how you feel different?

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Many times, I have hunted caches in parks that may or may not have posted hours. However, if I did not see the posted hours, I may (or may not) have been in the park after hours.

 

If a geocacher is in a park after hours and a LEO takes notice of it, that is on the geocacher. It does not say anything about the larger community nor should it affect his find (per the guidelines).

 

Honestly, I suspect that most of these threads are more about some getting beaten to a FTF than this activity getting a black mark.

 

I agree it is on the cacher as far as the law and GC is concerned. Perception will be what it is though, there will always be people who make bad choices, it's just up to the rest to overshadow the bad with good.

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If a geocacher is in a park after hours and a LEO takes notice of it, that is on the geocacher. It does not say anything about the larger community nor should it affect his find (per the guidelines).

I'm pretty sure that a LEO does not follow the guidelines of GS and it reflects badly on all of us.

I would like to see how you feel different?

I have to agree. I do think that it SHOULD not reflect on all of us, but I'm afraid that it WILL, regardless of what I think.
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So if the FTF is known to be when the park is closed, would it be the right thing to do to delete the log???

 

When people have broken a park rule while finding one of my caches and mentioned that fact in their logs, I've asked them to edit their logs. As bad as breaking rules or laws to find a cache is, mentioning that you did so in your log is beyond stupid. Yet I'm amazed at the number of people who do so.

 

I wouldn't delete the log without first giving the finder a chance to edit it.

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So if the FTF is known to be when the park is closed, would it be the right thing to do to delete the log???

 

When people have broken a park rule while finding one of my caches and mentioned that fact in their logs, I've asked them to edit their logs. As bad as breaking rules or laws to find a cache is, mentioning that you did so in your log is beyond stupid. Yet I'm amazed at the number of people who do so.

 

I wouldn't delete the log without first giving the finder a chance to edit it.

 

while i won't purposely break laws or rules to find caches, it will happen from time to time.

 

i am thinking particularly of a cache crashco and i were at in new hampshire; the park closed at dusk and we were there at five in the afternoon in late november. the sign informing us of the park closing was too far from the gate to be visible at night, not particularly useful.

 

when we went into the park we passed a park employee who did not bother to tell us the park was closed, but instead called the police.

 

we went right ahead and wrote about it in our logs.

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I have no problem whatsoever entering a park with posted visiting hours. However, I have only had to do it once that I can remember. Here, its not breaking a law - it is breaking a by-law.

 

I believe these bylaws for some parks are in place for liability reasons, to give the municipality plausible deniability in the event that miscreants injure themselves (likely while drunk).

 

I didn't mention this in the log, however. It is impolite to the CO (who explicitly mentioned the park hours in the description) but more importantly, it could be used as inculpatory evidence.

 

frinkmug.jpg

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Cache owners and seekers absolutely need to obey all posted park rules.

 

There is an area just north of the cache in question that is posted that you need to stay on the trails and the area is for daytime use only.

 

Some one placed a cache 100 ft off the trail and someone else had a night cache in there.

 

Caching is now banned in that area.

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while i won't purposely break laws or rules to find caches, it will happen from time to time.

 

i am thinking particularly of a cache crashco and i were at in new hampshire; the park closed at dusk and we were there at five in the afternoon in late november. the sign informing us of the park closing was too far from the gate to be visible at night, not particularly useful.

 

when we went into the park we passed a park employee who did not bother to tell us the park was closed, but instead called the police.

 

we went right ahead and wrote about it in our logs.

 

AHHH part of the problem not the solution.

 

SS

Edited by Scubasonic
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I only have to say read my note on my page...

Wow! I read the note. Quite possibly the most bizarre thing I've ever read on a cache page.

"FTF rules will apply to all cachers. I request that you obey all Park rules. If you chose not to, I will not award a FTF to you."

A FTF is not something that is awarded. It is simply a reflection of who found the cache first.

Unless you are able to tap into the space/time continuum, you will not be able to take a FTF away.

 

Back on topic: Breaking the rules in a park is a bad thing. FTF of otherwise.

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If a geocacher is in a park after hours and a LEO takes notice of it, that is on the geocacher. It does not say anything about the larger community nor should it affect his find (per the guidelines).

 

I'm pretty sure that a LEO does not follow the guidelines of GS and it reflects badly on all of us.

I would like to see how you feel different?

Frankly, I can't figure out what you are trying to say, so I can't respond.

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I have no problem whatsoever entering a park with posted visiting hours. However, I have only had to do it once that I can remember. Here, its not breaking a law - it is breaking a by-law.

 

I believe these bylaws for some parks are in place for liability reasons, to give the municipality plausible deniability in the event that miscreants injure themselves (likely while drunk).

 

I didn't mention this in the log, however. It is impolite to the CO (who explicitly mentioned the park hours in the description) but more importantly, it could be used as inculpatory evidence.

 

frinkmug.jpg

 

Similar to here in the UK. UK law is not all that clear, but trespass is identified as a civil offence, not a criminal offence - which means police will only get involved if they are called by a land owner, and then will only act as witness and step in if it gets violent.

 

As part of the provision of enforcing the trespass law in the UK, the owner must ask the trespasser to leave. If the trespasser leaves, it ends there. The owner can use "reasonable" force if the trespasser refuses to leave - but this is very subjective and here the land owner is at risk of being prosecuted themselves if they are not careful.

 

Trespassers cannot be jailed or fined, but they can be sued in a civil action for any "damages" they cause - damages is also subjective - which under UK law would put a question mark over caches placed on private land, even publicly accessible land within prescribed hours, without explicit permission!

 

Land owners here in the UK also face the added risk and culpability if they don't warn trespassers of certain dangers on there land. They actually risk being sued themselves for injuries themselves e.g. If there is no warning about barbed wire for example.

 

As far as my little excursion goes, if I was asked to leave before finding the cache, I'd do so immediately. I'd probably say that I'd lost my expensive watch when I visited during the day and wanted to find it before the general public came back.

 

As far as placing caches on grounds where the area is fenced off, even public grounds, where there is a time limit, should cachers be allowed to place at all without explicit permission? They could be liable for damages if the wrong person found it and felt that its placement had caused damage - whether perceived or imaginary.

 

This is how it works in the UK, I have no idea about the US so I'd be interested to know what the actual law states before assessing any activity as illegal.

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while i won't purposely break laws or rules to find caches, it will happen from time to time.

 

i am thinking particularly of a cache crashco and i were at in new hampshire; the park closed at dusk and we were there at five in the afternoon in late november. the sign informing us of the park closing was too far from the gate to be visible at night, not particularly useful.

 

when we went into the park we passed a park employee who did not bother to tell us the park was closed, but instead called the police.

 

we went right ahead and wrote about it in our logs.

 

AHHH part of the problem not the solution.

 

SS

 

and you still smell of chicken.

 

can't handle rubbing two thoughts together?

 

for us to write the full extent of our story informs cachers after us that the park DOES close at dusk. the sign was many yards from the entrance, covered in vines, and not visible in darkness. had we seen the sign (and we always look for posted hours) we would not have gone in.

 

try working on reading comprehension a little. context and interpretation are wonderful things if you can handle them. and then maybe come out and meet me in nebraska. you can't handle either literacy or competition.

 

mmmm, chicken.

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So if the FTF is known to be when the park is closed, would it be the right thing to do to delete the log???

Sure is. It's definitely NOT an ALR to require someone to follow the law. If someone posts an after hours find on my caches, they get deleted, no problem!

I'm thinking that you've missed previous threads on this topic where guidance on this issue has been received.

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So if the FTF is known to be when the park is closed, would it be the right thing to do to delete the log???

Sure is. It's definitely NOT an ALR to require someone to follow the law. If someone posts an after hours find on my caches, they get deleted, no problem!

I'm thinking that you've missed previous threads on this topic where guidance on this issue has been received.

 

Having PARTICIPATED in said threads, I knw what was said. I seem to remember (even with my horrid memory) that even mods agreed with my comment...in past threads.

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Perhaps another question to be asked is this.

 

The park has posted hours until 11:00pm. It gets dark at 5:30pm.

 

Is it wrong to go into the park after dark but before the posted closing hours?

 

I hope not as I do it quite a bit in the winter. However if a park closes at dusk and it is dark I will pass on the cache.

If parks close at dusk and/or a certain time they will have signs that say so. In this case, the posted hours are 11:00pm, so feel free to wander around in the dark until then. :P

 

Many times, I have hunted caches in parks that may or may not have posted hours. However, if I did not see the posted hours, I may (or may not) have been in the park after hours.

 

If a geocacher is in a park after hours and a LEO takes notice of it, that is on the geocacher. It does not say anything about the larger community nor should it affect his find (per the guidelines).

 

Honestly, I suspect that most of these threads are more about some getting beaten to a FTF than this activity getting a black mark.

Unfortunately, when someone involved in Geocaching gets busted it does reflect on everyone who participates in it ("Geocachers? Ain't they those folks that go around trespassing, breaking lampposts and uprooting sprinkler heads?"). Nobody's going to blame "Frisbee-ers" if you get caught throwing a disc in the park after hours, they'll know it's just the fault of the guys who did it. But cachers, just like other groups (skaters and teenagers, for example) will get punished/denied access due to the bad behaviour of other of their group.

 

It shouldn't be this way, but it is. Unfortunately stereotyping is alive and well.

 

So, if you insist on breaking laws while caching, have a good cover story ready that doesn't mention Geocaching. I'd like to get hassled for my own mistakes, not yours. :unsure:

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Perhaps another question to be asked is this.

 

The park has posted hours until 11:00pm. It gets dark at 5:30pm.

 

Is it wrong to go into the park after dark but before the posted closing hours?

 

I hope not as I do it quite a bit in the winter. However if a park closes at dusk and it is dark I will pass on the cache.

If parks close at dusk and/or a certain time they will have signs that say so. In this case, the posted hours are 11:00pm, so feel free to wander around in the dark until then. :P

 

Many times, I have hunted caches in parks that may or may not have posted hours. However, if I did not see the posted hours, I may (or may not) have been in the park after hours.

 

If a geocacher is in a park after hours and a LEO takes notice of it, that is on the geocacher. It does not say anything about the larger community nor should it affect his find (per the guidelines).

 

Honestly, I suspect that most of these threads are more about some getting beaten to a FTF than this activity getting a black mark.

Unfortunately, when someone involved in Geocaching gets busted it does reflect on everyone who participates in it ("Geocachers? Ain't they those folks that go around trespassing, breaking lampposts and uprooting sprinkler heads?"). Nobody's going to blame "Frisbee-ers" if you get caught throwing a disc in the park after hours, they'll know it's just the fault of the guys who did it. But cachers, just like other groups (skaters and teenagers, for example) will get punished/denied access due to the bad behaviour of other of their group.

 

It shouldn't be this way, but it is. Unfortunately stereotyping is alive and well.

 

So, if you insist on breaking laws while caching, have a good cover story ready that doesn't mention Geocaching. I'd like to get hassled for my own mistakes, not yours. :unsure:

Methinks that you didn't read my entire post.
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I've noticed that a lot of cache posting occur well after dark, at least during this part of the year when daylight hours are shortest. And many of these caches are located within parks with posted hours. So a FTFer has a choice, either break the rules or wait until morning hoping another FTFer that is willing to break the rules doesn't make the find during the night.

 

So the questions are:

  1. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to get a FTF?
  2. Is it ok to enter a closed park (after hours) to search for a non-FTF?

I think a lot of people that break the rules usually have something similar to this to say: "I had a great time breaking the park rules maybe the geo sheriff will give me a ticket. We all play this game a little differant then the next person but I try not to worry how the other people play." (a direct quote from a log posting today)

 

Then other side says for one that it's not fair to break the rules. That breaking the rules by one or a few gives all geocachers a bad reputation and even puts the game at risk for bans or more rules. If so then the idea that what I do doesn't affect you so leave me alone is just plane false and only self-serving.

 

Please limit your posts to discussion of the topic and avoid flaming

 

Looking forward to see where this goes!

 

Respect is a two way street, son.

 

Most park rangers are online also, and may read the logs. When they find a cache do you want them to hide it back where it was? Or would you want them to say "Isn't this from the group that sneaks in after hours?", and then toss it in the lake?

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So, if you insist on breaking laws while caching, have a good cover story ready that doesn't mention Geocaching. I'd like to get hassled for my own mistakes, not yours. :unsure:

Methinks that you didn't read my entire post.

I apologize to sbell111 for my lack of clarity. In this case "you" refers generically to cachers who choose to break the law while caching.

 

*edited for even more clarity.

Edited by Six Little Spookies
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So, if you insist on breaking laws while caching, have a good cover story ready that doesn't mention Geocaching. I'd like to get hassled for my own mistakes, not yours. :unsure:

Methinks that you didn't read my entire post.

I apologize to sbell111 for my lack of clarity. In this case "you" refers generically to cachers who choose to break the law while caching.

 

*edited for even more clarity.

As you could tell from a quick reread of my post, sometimes cachers go after a cache after hours without knowing that the park has 'closed'.

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Well, must admit that my last FTF (I only have 3 or 4) was in a park after park hours (I found it at about 0200h). I didn't park in the parks parking lot because I figured that that may result in some negitive attention. I personly didn't think about the ethics of this much.

 

I guess it is realy not a good idea. But I would have done that same thing as a teenager if I had wanted to take a date on a romatic walk or something. I have always viewed rules that have no impact on others as guidlines.

 

PS Who here speeds (when geocaching or not)? I view these rules in the same catagory (guidelines) I don't speed so much that I will get ticketed, and I only go into parks after hours if I am prety sure that I will not be noticed.

 

PPS I did not know that the park closed at night untill I had driven 25 min (at 0130h) to get there, I wasn't about to turn around and go home.

Edited by Andronicus
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Well, must admit that my last FTF (I only have 3 or 4) was in a park after park hours (I found it at about 0200h). I didn't park in the parks parking lot because I figured that that may result in some negitive attention. I personly didn't think about the ethics of this much.

 

I guess it is realy not a good idea. But I would have done that same thing as a teenager if I had wanted to take a date on a romatic walk or something. I have always viewed rules that have no impact on others as guidlines.

 

PS Who here speeds (when geocaching or not)? I view these rules in the same catagory (guidelines) I don't speed so much that I will get ticketed, and I only go into parks after hours if I am prety sure that I will not be noticed.

 

PPS I did not know that the park closed at night untill I had driven 25 min (at 0130h) to get there.

 

Lets me say first that I'll admit I have at times FTFd caches after hours, and grabbed 'regular' caches after hours too. And I speed most of the time as well (but usually moderately). That is said as a discloser and hopefully show that I'm trying to dialog rather then jump your case.

 

With that out of the way, I think you’ve brought up the more general context and at the same time noted the most common rational: what I do doesn’t affect others therefore its ok for me to draw my own line in the sand. Where the discussion is now, breaking park hours and speeding rules are just the particulars.

 

But I have to say that it is absolutely false that breaking rules don’t affect other people. Rather, breaking rules does affect other people. It was a hard pill for me to shallow at first and now I can see clearly that it is true. Taking the two particular cases noted as examples:

 

Regarding being in a park after hours, it can affect people. Not always of course but more often then not I'm sure. Just because the offenders can't tell its happening there still could be those offended. For example, every time a nearby home owner hears someone or sees a flashlight in a park after hours then have to spend time worrying / stressing about it. If that seems minimal then put yourself in that person’s perspective. The times that the police are called takes their time and effort and distracts them from other work and therefore generally makes us less safe. And just because the cops didn’t show up doesn’t mean they weren’t called.

 

Regarding speed, a higher speed causes more damage and is more like to hurt people in an accident. Even if there is no accident, speeding messes up traffic flow; for example gaps between sets of cars starting from traffic lights give time for left turns and cars to pull out from side roads. The worst offenders are actually the first cars out from the light that then speed up to catch the last car from the prior green light...

 

So, the rationalized thought that 'what I do doesn’t affect other people' is false.

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