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Why do people say "The cache is gone." ?


hat_man
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I hate to use one of my hides as an example, as I know it happens to others often, but why do people put in their logs "The cache is gone." as it it were a statement of fact. I have a hide that is easy to walk to, looks fairly easy to find from a distance, but is hard to find. Reading the logs posted shows that most that go looking for it don't find it on the first try. Some have asked for hints (and I don't mind giving them), returned and found it, and a few have made the return trip and found it without. Just taking the time to read the logs would lead someone to believe that it's a toughie. Other finders have posted notes after a DNF that in their opinion it's probably still there. I usually check a cache that has a DNF posted to it and this one is no execption. I may not post a note that I have checked it after every DNF but it does get checked. The last cacher to post that it is gone has over 1000 finds. Some of the DNF logs posted are by cachers with 1000 finds and they have gone back a second time and found it. IMHO, when a log is posted that says the cache is gone then someone coming behind that cacher may pass at it based on that satement. If you think a cache has gone missing, post your DNF and ask that the CO take a look and verify it's still there or e-mail the CO and ask for help or hints, but don't just assume that the cache is gone because you can't find it. Again IMHO.

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I've seen this as long as I have been caching.

 

One of my early hides got reported as "I know it is gone" - I quickly ran out and checked on the cache and found it just where I had left it. When I returned home I emailed the guy and let him know. He accused me of replacing the cache with a new one and lying to him about it. He actually told me that he was "experienced enough to find any cache".

 

Ego.

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Yes, it does get a little frustrating sometimes. I usually just shake my head and forget about it, but sometimes I will email the cacher that stated that it was missing, to ask them why they believe that it is gone. I have had instances where they provided me with good enough information where I felt that it was neccessary for me to check up on the cache, and I've had others where I could tell that they had no idea where or how the cache was hidden.

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I rarely post a needs maintenance, which is the proper way of reporting that the cache may be missing. In a year of seeking, i have done it twice, i think. Each time only after multiple attempts AND a lengthy watch to verify that nobody else is finding it. Then I report exactly what I did to find it, where I searched and why I believe it is missing. I always assume that the hider is stationed far away and that checking on the hide is a major inconvenience. I also offer to chack for them if they care to offer a hint or more specifics on the hide. In short, I act the way I would like someone to act if I owned the hide.

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I don't think a NM should be used unless you actually find the cache and it does need maintenance. The container may be damaged, the log soggy, ants have taken up residence, etc.

 

I think a DNF is the way to report the fact that you didn't find it, and just maybe it is missing. How do you know it Needs Maintenance if you do not see it? :laughing:

 

I wouldn't assume the hider is too far away to properly maintain and check on their cache, and neither do the reviewers. A responsible CO should check on their cache if there is a string of DNFs. But not after every single one.

 

Back OT-at least the people who post "if I cannot find it it must be missing have less ego than those who refuse to post anything at all". :laughing:

Edited by wimseyguy
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I guess "ego" is pretty much the best answer anyone can come up with.

 

When I started geocaching, it didn't take me long to learn that I can miss the simplest hides. To this day I fear the dreaded 1/1 hide where a new cacher previously logged "easy find!".

 

Yup, that's it!

I can find anything up to a 3.5 diff in about twenty seconds...4.0 and above take a bit longer.

BUT, a 1, hidden by a newbie, and found easily by all the other newbies...that IS scary.

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Accordingly to my experience the main factor for this is just being a rookie. I had such behavior in my early times. It's just lack of experience. People tend to assume that caches as there to be found once they get to the spot. No found, no cache there.

 

Not only I committed the same mistakes as a rookie but I observe such kind of logs in my caches mainly from beginners. Plus, I notice that when I bring friends with me to look for a couple of them, they usually come quiet easily to the conclusion: "the cache is gone".

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I've seen this as long as I have been caching.

 

One of my early hides got reported as "I know it is gone" - I quickly ran out and checked on the cache and found it just where I had left it. When I returned home I emailed the guy and let him know. He accused me of replacing the cache with a new one and lying to him about it. He actually told me that he was "experienced enough to find any cache".

 

Ego.

 

Oh that happened with me too. Only my fellow was a little more "smart a**": he logged a find, alleging he found the spot and even the plastic bag where the cache used to be. Well... when I went there I also found the plastic bag... and my cache. Meaning this dude not event bothered to do some elementary CITO there.

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I've posted "the cache is gone" but only under very specific circumstances.

 

I know a lot of cachers and most of us maintain an extensive Phone-A-Friend list, so the chances that I know the CO or a reliable previous finder and have their phone number or email is pretty high... or if I don't I likely know someone who does.

 

If I can't find it and they can reliably tell me where it is supposed to be I will post a Needs Maintenance stating "This one appears to be gone" as a way to alert the owner and also to save following cachers a trip.

 

The CO posts a note saying it was repaired or, if I am wrong, that I was wrong, either way cachers know they can go hunt it.

 

I DNF so many that I would never just assume it to be missing! :angry:

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He accused me of replacing the cache with a new one and lying to him about it. He actually told me that he was "experienced enough to find any cache".Ego.
Was his name, "webscouter", by any chance? :angry:

I'm not sure what your point was of duplicating that post without adding a comment, but I will use the opportunity to state that my post was intended to be a light-hearted respose to this:

 

 

 

I say it because I am such a great cacher that it I can't find it then the cache has to be gone. :unsure:

 

and probably does not need to go any further than the lighthearted humor that was intended.
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He accused me of replacing the cache with a new one and lying to him about it. He actually told me that he was "experienced enough to find any cache".Ego.
Was his name, "webscouter", by any chance? :angry:

I'm not sure what your point was of duplicating that post without adding a comment, but I will use the opportunity to state that my post was intended to be a light-hearted respose to this:

 

 

 

I say it because I am such a great cacher that it I can't find it then the cache has to be gone. :unsure:

 

and probably does not need to go any further than the lighthearted humor that was intended.

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I/we typically log the did not find and blame it on our rookieness and e-mail the CO if needed for his or her benefit, not ours, in other words as of yet we haven't asked for or don't want any hints. If we can't find it then we can't find it and figure we will find it someday........As rookie geocachers we tend to shy away from the hard to find ones but as a longtime offroad explorers we don't tend to shy away from the difficult terrains. Basically we like the journey followed by a somewhat easy find. Back on point we have never logged the cache as gone especially at this point and even later when our confidence level has grown I don't foresee ever logging something so absolute and would more likely e-mail the CO and let them know how strongly I might feel that it is "gone" and let them make that absolute decision.

Edited by Pipeline Putters
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I've posted "the cache is gone" but only under very specific circumstances.

 

I know a lot of cachers and most of us maintain an extensive Phone-A-Friend list, so the chances that I know the CO or a reliable previous finder and have their phone number or email is pretty high... or if I don't I likely know someone who does.

 

If I can't find it and they can reliably tell me where it is supposed to be I will post a Needs Maintenance stating "This one appears to be gone" as a way to alert the owner and also to save following cachers a trip.

 

The CO posts a note saying it was repaired or, if I am wrong, that I was wrong, either way cachers know they can go hunt it.

 

I DNF so many that I would never just assume it to be missing! :D

Like TAR, I DNF lots of caches. Generally, I assume that they are still there and that I have merely failed (again) to find them.

 

However, like TAR, I have occasionally entered a 'Cache is gone' log. A typical log of this type would be for a cache with a hint of 'in a tree'. You arrive at the location to find the aftermath of a tree removal; trunk cut to the ground, mulched wood scattered about. The cache is clearly gone, so all you can do is report back what you found.

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how about this log ?

 

"This one actually really made us mad. We hiked all the way down the mountain to find this one cache only to find nothing but a river where the GPS said it would be. We spent over 30 min checking a 40 foot radius only to walk away empty handed. Please have someone check this cache out. DO NOT BOTHER HIKING DOWN UNTIL THIS CACHE IS FIXED. "

 

This was the very first time this guy was ever geocaching - and according to his profile also the last time. This cache actually requires few miles of hiking to get to, I went out there to check on it and sure enough it was exactly where I originally hid it... :D

 

Word of advice - please don't say "don't bother looking" in your logs next time

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I've posted "the cache is gone" but only under very specific circumstances.

 

I know a lot of cachers and most of us maintain an extensive Phone-A-Friend list, so the chances that I know the CO or a reliable previous finder and have their phone number or email is pretty high... or if I don't I likely know someone who does.

 

If I can't find it and they can reliably tell me where it is supposed to be I will post a Needs Maintenance stating "This one appears to be gone" as a way to alert the owner and also to save following cachers a trip.

 

The CO posts a note saying it was repaired or, if I am wrong, that I was wrong, either way cachers know they can go hunt it.

 

I DNF so many that I would never just assume it to be missing! :D

Like TAR, I DNF lots of caches. Generally, I assume that they are still there and that I have merely failed (again) to find them.

 

However, like TAR, I have occasionally entered a 'Cache is gone' log. A typical log of this type would be for a cache with a hint of 'in a tree'. You arrive at the location to find the aftermath of a tree removal; trunk cut to the ground, mulched wood scattered about. The cache is clearly gone, so all you can do is report back what you found.

 

Good point about the GONE tree. This happens more than COers are willing to take a hint from the lowly seeker. I would think that for the sake of responsible COers and the sake of GCing, it better to 'err' on the side of making sure the GC is there, not pirated, and not muggled. That would be a DNF. Knowing about broke containers, wet logs and others like that means you found the 'corpse' and still would be a 'Found It'.

I have found many of that type and try to help the CO when possible.

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i dont always log a dnf on my first try on acount i might be in a rush ( cache n dash ) after 2 or 3 tries then i log it . im still working on all the local caches have a note book in the car so if we go near 1while were out we can stop n try it ....

 

Did you try to find it? If you did, it's a DNF. Don't be ashamed of failure. We have all experienced it. I have logged several DNFs on the same cache. You mean to tell me that the didn't find it only after 2 or 3 tries?

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I have logged a couple 'Cache is gone' type logs. One, I quickly changed because I was newer to caching and quickly realized I'm just an idiot and should look again... which I did... and promptly found. Grr.

 

One in particular we searched the whole area. Knew we were looking for an ammo can so the possibilities were limited. Happened across a pretty distinct geopile... and yet no cache anywhere in site. So, I mentioned that in the DNF log and that it appears the cache was gone.

 

Or, if I have used my phone a friend and know pretty certainly that it is missing... I will note that with either a needs maintenance or dnf on the page.

 

I do not neccessarily log a dnf my first time out on a cache because I still feel that I am inexperienced enough that it isn't really a dnf neccessarily but more of a didn't really know what I was doing... and there's no choice for that!

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A cache does not exist until it is observed. Until then, it is in a superposition of states: it could be there, it could not be there. It is incorrect to say that it is not there if you can't see it, but it would be equally incorrect to state that it is there.

 

What are they teaching in schools these days? :unsure:

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I don't think a NM should be used unless you actually find the cache and it does need maintenance. The container may be damaged, the log soggy, ants have taken up residence, etc.

 

I think a DNF is the way to report the fact that you didn't find it, and just maybe it is missing. How do you know it Needs Maintenance if you do not see it? :unsure:

 

I wouldn't assume the hider is too far away to properly maintain and check on their cache, and neither do the reviewers. A responsible CO should check on their cache if there is a string of DNFs. But not after every single one.

 

Back OT-at least the people who post "if I cannot find it it must be missing have less ego than those who refuse to post anything at all". :unsure:

 

I too am in the DNF camp. And if there are extenuating circumstances, then a PM should do the trick.

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A cache does not exist until it is observed. Until then, it is in a superposition of states: it could be there, it could not be there. It is incorrect to say that it is not there if you can't see it, but it would be equally incorrect to state that it is there.

 

What are they teaching in schools these days? :unsure:

In probability theory there is a similar principle. If a cache has a probabilistic description, this description gives the probability of any configuration, and given any two different configurations, there is a state which is partly this and partly that (there / not there), with positive real number coefficients, the probabilities, which say how much of each there is.

 

For example, if we have a probability distribution for where a cache is, it is described by the "state"

 

\sum_x \rho(x) |x\rangle

 

Where ρ is the probability density function, a positive number that measures the probability that the cache will be found at a certain location.

 

The evolution equation is also linear in probability, for fundamental reasons. If the cache has some probability for going from state x to y (there to not there), and from z to y (unfound to there), the probability of going to y starting from a state which is half-x and half-z is a half-and-half mixture of the probability of going to y from each of the options. This is the principle of linear superposition in probability.

 

Quantum mechanics is different, because the numbers can be positive or negative. While the complex nature of the numbers is just a doubling, if you consider the real and imaginary parts separately, the sign of the coefficients is important. In probability, two different possible outcomes always add together, so that if there are more options to get to a point z, the probability always goes up. In quantum mechanics, different possibilities can cancel.

 

In probability theory with a finite number of states, the probabilities can always be multiplied by a positive number to make their sum equal to one. For example, if there is a three state probability system:

 

x |1\rangle + y |2\rangle + z |3\rangle \,

 

where the probabilities x,y,z are positive numbers. Rescaling x,y,z so that

 

x+y+z=1 \,

 

The geometry of the state space is a revealed to be a triangle. In general it is a simplex. There are special points in a triangle or simplex corresponding to the corners, and these points are those where one of the probabilities is equal to 1 and the others are zero. These are the unique locations where the position is known with certainty.

 

In a quantum mechanical system with three states, the quantum mechanical wavefunction is a superposition of states again, but this time twice as many quantities with no restriction on the sign:

 

A|1\rangle + B|2\rangle + C|3\rangle = (A_r + iA_i) |1\rangle + (B_r + i B_i) |2\rangle + (C_r + iC_i) |3\rangle \,

 

rescaling the variables so that the sum of the squares is 1, the geometry of the space is revealed to be a high dimensional sphere

 

A_r^2 + A_i^2 + B_r^2 + B_i^2 + C_r^2 + C_i^2 = 1 \,.

 

A sphere has a large amount of symmetry, it can be viewed in different coordinate systems or bases. So unlike a probability theory, a quantum theory has a large number of different bases in which it can be equally well described. The geometry of the phase space can be viewed as a hint that the quantity in quantum mechanics which corresponds to the probability is the absolute square of the coefficient of the superposition.

 

Who need skool when we got Wikipedia? :unsure:

 

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_super...ition_principle for the formula expressions, this text editor doesn't like them. I don't either, they make my head hurt.

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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TAR: Haven't you got some caching to do? :unsure:

Found seven this week with my friend Artican. Installed 2008 Advanced Server on my Dell PowerEdge server, rebuilt 3 PCs and donated them to schools to give to poor kids for Christmas, did all the household's cooking and cleaning, including hosting 11 for Thanksgiving dinner, edited and published some new articles for The Online Geocacher, worked with the contractor to create a punch list to finish the bedroom, bathroom and laundry he's adding onto my house, checked in to several VHF and HF radio nets and still had time to post every 8.3 seconds in this forum.

 

You? :unsure:

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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TAR: Haven't you got some caching to do? :unsure:

Found seven this week with my friend Artican. Installed 2008 Advanced Server on my Dell PowerEdge server, rebuilt 3 PCs and donated them to schools to give to poor kids for Christmas, did all the household's cooking and cleaning, including hosting 11 for Thanksgiving dinner, edited and published some new articles for The Online Geocacher, worked with the contractor to create a punch list to finish the bedroom, bathroom and laundry he's adding onto my house, checked in to several VHF and HF radio nets and still had time to post every 8.3 seconds in this forum.

 

You? :unsure:

Well, you know what I always say: "A_r^2 + A_i^2 + B_r^2 + B_i^2 + C_r^2 + C_i^2 = 1 \,.

" :unsure:

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If I think it's gone, I will, on occasion log that way. Did I mention that I hate magnetic keyolders in aluminum bleachers??? Last two of those I looked for, I logged that I thought it was gone. The one from Friday was confirmed missing by the CO. The one from two weeks ago has a missing CO. Aluminum is NOT magnetic! The third one has been found several times since I last looked. And I am NOT looking again!

Sometimes I am right. Sometimes I am wrong. But I will tell you what I think!

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We dont always find caches so Im hesitant to insist a cache is missing. I will only post that "it is gone" if Im certain of it, for instance if it is a cache I have found before and am returning to to pick up or leave a travel bug. And only if Im sure it has not been moved to another hiding spot. I have often posted that "I think it could be gone" if the area has had some major changes like construction etc. Usually I will post a dnf or note if I think it is missing, then send the cache owner an email with a more detailed description of the area and what I found so he/she can evaluate the likelihood of it being missing. If there are several DNFs and the cache owner is among the missing who havent logged on for months, I will post a maintenance request to alert the reviewer.

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I've seen this as long as I have been caching.

 

One of my early hides got reported as "I know it is gone" - I quickly ran out and checked on the cache and found it just where I had left it. When I returned home I emailed the guy and let him know. He accused me of replacing the cache with a new one and lying to him about it. He actually told me that he was "experienced enough to find any cache".

 

Ego.

 

:unsure: Tell the person, he should come to Paducah, KY (U.S. Interstate 24) and find "Its on Track, Are You?" (GC1F31G). It has never been found. He can show up the over 75 DNFs.

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I never say the cache is gone unless there are outstanding circumstances.

If I arrive at a cache locatoin and there is anyplace to hide something, I will assume that I just can't find it but it is most likely staring me in the face, as usual.

 

The only time I can remember logging that a cache wasn't there was when I arrived to look for a cache hidden in the forest only to find acres of burned land, heavy equipment track marks all around ground zero, and absolutely nothing but sand within 75 feet of GZ. In that case, I was pretty sure that there was nothing left to find.

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with over half a year experience caching i have reported 3 needs maintenance's

 

the first was withing my first month i found the top of a bison tube wired to a fence the bottom and log were missing the co wrote me back a month later and told me to log it as a find

 

the second i found then a month later i was taking a friend caching for her first time and since i liked it so much i let her try to find it

the spot where i found the cach had been washed out in a recent heavy rain

 

the last i found every thing was soak

 

i think all three were good needs maintenance

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