Reviewers?

[+tqagirl]

So how does this work exactly?

 

Who are the reviewers and what did they do to get to be reviewers? Is it like some elite cacher club? Do the reviewers actually work off some clarified guidelines or are their decisions arbitrary and based on their own personal subjective opinions? Are they employees of GC?

 

After browsing through the rogue reviewer thread it seemed some people got all hostile and bent out of shape for what seemed, as my impression, to be "daring to question the great and powerful oz" so it definitely raised the question of what to expect with trying to get caches listed.

 

This isn't intended as confrontational or inflammatory - but curious as to what this is about.

 

I see on one of the other sites terracache or one of those they want to people to get sponsors and those people seemed to have this same sort of role and that gave me concerns of stepping innocently into what at initial glance seemed to be a large open community of people enjoying the game turning out to be more about some cliquish group who'd just as soon keep things cliquish, so the new hides get knocked out of the way in favor of their personal buddy hides.

 

I am new but if that goes on here, I'd just as soon get a refund on my premium membership.

 

Can I get some honest explanations on this issue? Ease my mind?

 

Thanks

 

(and while here, given that I've posted about 4 times now and only had 2 people respond directly at all, when there are scores of people on the site, I'm wondering if I'm even welcome here just being new)

[+Bear and Ragged]

(and while here, given that I've posted about 4 times now and only had 2 people respond directly at all, when there are scores of people on the site, I'm wondering if I'm even welcome here just being new)

 

Could be because you're asking questions in the "General Geocaching Discussions" section.

Try asking in the "Getting Started" section.

(Where, pinned at the top is a section called "Read First! Geocaching Frequently Asked Questions" which may answer most questions.

 

Welcome!

 

Who are the reviewers and what did they do to get to be reviewers? Is it like some elite cacher club? Do the reviewers actually work off some clarified guidelines or are their decisions arbitrary and based on their own personal subjective opinions? Are they employees of GC?

 

Reviewers are 'Volunteers' and review caches in their free time. Most are respected cachers in their own right, often with high numbers of cache finds and hides, and many years of caching experience. (And cache under their own caching name, which may or may not be known to fellow cachers. (In the UK we know the reviewers caching name, some places have no idea who the cacher is behind the reviewrs name.)

 

Reviewers are selected by their fellow reviewers and Groundspeak.

 

The Knowledgebase is also a good place to find answers

Edited November 14, 2009 by Bear and Ragged

[+briansnat]

Who are the reviewers and what did they do to get to be reviewers?

 

Reviewers are geocachers. When a need for a new reviewer is identified, he (or she) is selected based on a number of criteria including knowledge of the guidelines, a track record of following them, a good standing in the local geocaching community, experience hiding and finding caches and often a record of working with local officials and parks personnel to promote geocaching. When such a person is identified, he is approached by Groundspeak. The smart people say no, so we're left with a bunch of not so bright people (of course I jest).

 

Is it like some elite cacher club?

 

Nope, they are just geocachers who volunteer their time (often lots of it) to give back to the sport.

 

Do the reviewers actually work off some clarified guidelines or are their decisions arbitrary and based on their own personal subjective opinions?

 

They work off the same guidelines that all of us work off of. They can be found here. Of course the guidelines, like any document, are subject to interpretation. Which is why reviewers will often consult with other reviewers when something might not be clear, or a situation appears to be borderline. Also cache owners have the right to appeal to Groundspeak if they feel the reviewer misinterpreted the guidelines. Despite the impression you may have obtained elswhere here, Groundspeak does overrule a reviewer if they believe he is wrong.

 

Are they employees of GC?

 

No

 

...what to expect with trying to get caches listed.

 

You can expect that if your cache clearly conforms to the guidelines it will be published without issue. If there are grey areas, or appearances of conflicts with the guidelines, then there may be some back and forth between you and the reviewer to make it publishable. Bottom line is that reviewers are geocachers. They want to publish caches. More for them to find.

 

...a large open community of people enjoying the game...

 

That's exactly what it is. As in any community there are bound to be disagreements and being an open community everybody is allowed in, so the geocaching community will reflect to some extent the larger community. We have all kinds of people here and that includes some jerks, control freaks and weirdos.

 

Though I've found over the years that because the sport is completely dependent on the generosity, decency and honesty of others, the members of the geocaching community tends to be over represented by the decent portion of society. I've met many geocachers over the years and the ones I've come to know well are among some of the finest people I've known anywhere.

 

...some cliquish group who'd just as soon keep things cliquish, so the new hides get knocked out of the way in favor of their personal buddy hides.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

and while here, given that I've posted about 4 times now and only had 2 people respond directly at all, when there are scores of people on the site, I'm wondering if I'm even welcome here just being new)

 

New geocachers are welcome and the lifeblood of our sport. Without new blood this thing of ours would have died out years ago.

 

Finally, do not confuse these forums with geocaching. We're just people who like to talk about geocaching nearly as much as doing it. There are people with strong opinions here and sometimes they bump heads. It is a discussion forum and as with any discussion there are bound to be disagreements.

 

In reality a very small percentage of geocachers participate in these forums. Most geocachers enjoy the sport, never visit here and are blissfully unaware of the controversy of the day. Many geocachers don't even know these forums exist.

 

There is plenty of good information here and most threads are controversy free, but every once in a while a hot button topic comes up and the discussion gets spirited. So visit if you like, post if you feel inclined, but don't let anything you see here turn you off about geocaching in general because this ain't geocaching.

Edited November 14, 2009 by briansnat

[+wimseyguy]

Here is the specific KB link to How to become a reviewer. It should answer most of your questions about who they are and how they became volunteer reviewers.

 

Here is a link to the guidelines for listing a cache at geocaching.com. As a cache placer you are expected to have read and understood them. The reviewers look at your submitted cache and double check that it does comply with these guidelines.

 

Hopefully this puts some of your concerns at ease. Also keep in mind that while the forums are open to all cachers, only a small percentage spend any time in here, and an even smaller percentage are really active. Their opinions may or may not be truly representative of the actual geocaching community-see my signature line.

 

Based on my personal observations of the number of active cachers in my area and the number I see playing in the forum sandbox, I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of geocachers worldwide are out there simply having fun, and are blissfully unaware of one firestorm over one controversial cache hundreds of miles away from home. And it isn't affecting them one bit, nor should you let it affect you.

 

Edited to add some numbers about that Rogue thread that may put things in perspective-as of this edit there have been 554 posts to the thread. 265 (49%) have been made by 12 posters. So the topic is of concern to a few who have been discussing it passionately. But most of us are simply just caching and having fun.

Edited November 14, 2009 by wimseyguy

[+Cav Scout]

I dissagree with some of these qoutes. My local reveiwer will not and has not approved any of my traditional cache requests for over "ONE YEAR" due to personnal differences. All of my requets are now forwarded to Groundspeak.

 

I now wonder how long I will have to wait before I can get a cache apporved just like everyone else.

 

 

...what to expect with trying to get caches listed.

 

You can expect that if your cache clearly conforms to the guidelines it will be published without issue. If there are grey areas, or appearances of conflicts with the guidelines, then there may be some back and forth between you and the reviewer to make it publishable. Bottom line is that reviewers are geocachers. They want to publish caches. More for them to find.

 

...some cliquish group who'd just as soon keep things cliquish, so the new hides get knocked out of the way in favor of their personal buddy hides.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[There is plenty of good information here and most threads are controversy free, but every once in a while a hot button topic comes up and the discussion gets spirited. So visit if you like, post if you feel inclined, but don't let anything you see here turn you off about geocaching in general.

[+FatherAndProgeny]

As of when I wrote this post the gc home page says "There are 940,806 active caches worldwide. In the last 7 days, there have been 627,511 new logs written by 83,737 account holders."

 

I have been reading these forums for over 2 years. I basically see the same set of posters making the majority of the posts. If all 83,737 were reading and posting I doubt that anyone would be able to keep up with the number of topics.

 

Also if you go to the members list and scroll through, the vast majority have 0 posts.

 

So as I see it, only those people who like to talk about their experiences as well as cache actually post on these forums while the vast majority seem to be blissfully unaware the forums even exist probably because they are too busy caching.

Edited November 14, 2009 by FatherAndProgeny

[+Rockin Roddy]

As of when I wrote this post the gc home page says "There are 940,806 active caches worldwide. In the last 7 days, there have been 627,511 new logs written by 83,737 account holders."

 

I have been reading these forums for over 2 years. I basically see the same set of posters making the majority of the posts. If all 83,737 were reading and posting I doubt that anyone would be able to keep up with the number of topics.

 

Also if you go to the members list and scroll through, the vast majority have 0 posts.

 

So as I see it, only those people who like to talk about their experiences as well as cache actually post on these forums while the vast majority seem to be blissfully unaware the forums even exist probably because they are too busy caching.

 

Yep, most ARE unaware of the forums UNTIL they have a problem, then they come here and wonder what happened!

[+wimseyguy]

So the forums only exist to discuss problems?

[+Rockin Roddy]

So the forums only exist to discuss problems?

 

Where did anyone say that?

[+erik88l-r]

Reviewers are just regular guys and gals who volunteer some of their time to handle the necessary administrative side of helping ensure caches are listed ASAP, but within the guidelines.

 

Those guidelines have evolved over time to address the different situations and problems that have cropped up. I started reviewing caches before we had the guidelines we have now (back when cars had wooden wheels and mail delivery was twice daily) Jeremy gave me three or four common sense things to check for, and most of them still apply. As I recall, they were:

 

Don't publish a cache in a National Park.

Be sure the coords make sense - don't publish a cache listed as being in Washington if the coords put it in Germany, or in the ocean.

Don't publish a virtual cache unless there is some way to verify the find.

Don't get burned out.

 

Our sport has certainly evolved a lot since then.

 

~erik~

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Welcome to geocaching , and welcome to the forums

 

It has been my experience that the reviewers are a dedicated group that generally will bend over backwards to assist people in getting the caches published properly. Often offering suggestions on what to do, if it isn't being done right.

Now with that said, their workload is pretty awesome, especially when one considered on how well paid they are for doing what they do !!!!!!!

 

As you have noted, some people have problems getting their caches published, and most generally that is because they try to bend, break, and reshape the rules for fit their own desire, agenda or cause. That gums up the entire process, not just the caches that aren't published for one of those reasons. It does occasionally slow that reviewers' work to the speed of a snails' crawl.

 

You probably have noticed that when somebody complains about their cache not being published, they promptly come to the forums to complain of it. I have noticed however, that you rarely get the whole story. In fact, most of those "complainers" usually side-step the real issue involved, or don't mention it at all. Oftentimes to get a questionable cache published they will omit information that the reviewer needs in order to do his/her job.

Then starts the problem of the reviewer perhaps not truly believing what information provided is accurate, based upon past experience with that particular CO. I am sure that you have experienced such things. Are there any people that you simply do not believe? If so, why not? It is a rare happening, but it can and does happen.

 

On the issue of differences of opinions, well.......... you have how many people here, from every walk of life, with how many different opinions (on how many subjects)? You have to give some leeway to the responses provided. Given time here in the forums, you will learn (fairly quickly) who is very knowledgeable and helpful; who is not quite so knowledgeable; and who just plays devils' advocate on most any subject.

 

Some responders and open-minded, some are not; some are are common sense smart; some are technologically smart; some are eloquent, some are not -- keep in mind that anyone from anywhere can post here, so there may be a language barrier, of sorts.

 

All-in-all, the forums are a good thing, and the reviewers deserve a raise in pay ( I am not a reviewer)!

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

The overall geocaching community and the microcosm of it reflected in this forum welcome new cachers!

 

Take postings here with a grain of salt until you get to know the forum regulars; we who haunt these forums have individual personalities that only prolonged reading will reveal, and we often have an agenda and strong voices. Go to geocaching events to see what 'the real world' of geocaching is like.

 

The Reviewers are your friends. As has been mentioned these men and women volunteer amazing amounts of time, effort and money to keep this game family-friendly, open and angst-free.

 

As Cav Scout alluded to above you can cross your Reviewer(s) one time too many and be relegated to those who have to have Groundspeak deal with them because the Reviewers don't want to, but that is very rare and the same would happen in any community. Groundspeak gets paid to deal with unpleasant situations, the Reviewers don't.

 

Your job as a cacher is to follow the published Guidelines. Their job as Reviewers is to publish listings which meet the Guidelines. Do your job and they are glad to do theirs!

[+Team Cotati]

As of when I wrote this post the gc home page says "There are 940,806 active caches worldwide. In the last 7 days, there have been 627,511 new logs written by 83,737 account holders."

 

I have been reading these forums for over 2 years. I basically see the same set of posters making the majority of the posts. If all 83,737 were reading and posting I doubt that anyone would be able to keep up with the number of topics.

 

Also if you go to the members list and scroll through, the vast majority have 0 posts.

 

So as I see it, only those people who like to talk about their experiences as well as cache actually post on these forums while the vast majority seem to be blissfully unaware the forums even exist probably because they are too busy caching.

 

Yep, most ARE unaware of the forums UNTIL they have a problem, then they come here and wonder what happened!

 

"Yep, most ARE unaware of the forums UNTIL they have a problem, then they come here and wonder what happened!"

 

I'd really like to know what the above is all about.

[+Team Cotati]

I do not believe for one little second that the reviewers are motivated to review caches so that there will be more for them to find.

[+Unkle Fester]

So the forums only exist to discuss problems?

As gets said from time to time, please do not confuse the forums with Geocaching in general, two very different arenas. The forums get sidetracked, sarcastic and a little heated at times, but all are good people. go to any average geocaching event and you will meet a lot of people just out having a good time.

i think reviewing would be tough, they sometimes live under a microscope. But they are good people trying their best to interpret guidelines and explain them to people.

 

Welcome.

 

And for the record, I'm usually not much help - I fall into the extremely sarcastic role usually. But I have fun.

[+NanCycle]

(and while here, given that I've posted about 4 times now and only had 2 people respond directly at all, when there are scores of people on the site, I'm wondering if I'm even welcome here just being new)

 

I read through your posts and most of them didn't seem to be asking anything that required a direct response; some others seemed directed to a rather specific audience; sometimes you just have to wait a bit longer for the person(s) who are going to respond to deal with the other aspects of their lives and get back into the forums.

 

Anyway, welcome to the fun of geocaching and the forums.

 

Nancy

[+tozainamboku]

I do not believe for one little second that the reviewers are motivated to review caches so that there will be more for them to find.

We've even had reviewers indicate that if a cache that they wouldn't personally want to find meets all the guidelines they simply hold their nose and publish it. My guess is that with the removal of the mention of power trails from the saturation guidelines, there are reviewers who don't like power trails that will now publish them. On the other hand, reviewers who do like power trails are now able to publish these without resorting to all sorts of personal guidelines as to how many caches make a power trail or how close caches have to be to one another to be considered a power trail.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

And for the record, I'm usually not much help - I fall into the extremely sarcastic role usually. But I have fun.

 

I don't believe that!

[+thedeadpirate]

And for the record, I'm usually not much help - I fall into the extremely sarcastic role usually. But I have fun.

 

Me neither. Especially when I think I may be talking to a sock puppet.

 

Joined: 12-November 09

 

(and while here, given that I've posted about 4 times now and only had 2 people respond directly at all, when there are scores of people on the site, I'm wondering if I'm even welcome here just being new)

 

It's not so much because you are new as much as it is you are new and posting what will probably be another controversial thread. Anytime I see a thread like this, my skeptical side cannot help but question the true motives of the author.

 

*** edited because I forgot to address the OP ***

Edited November 14, 2009 by GeoBain

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

I do not believe for one little second that the reviewers are motivated to review caches so that there will be more for them to find.

 

Especially true of reviewers who do not live in the state they review!

 

(edit for typo correction)

Edited November 14, 2009 by BBWolf+3Pigs

[+sTeamTraen]

After browsing through the rogue reviewer thread it seemed some people got all hostile and bent out of shape for what seemed, as my impression, to be "daring to question the great and powerful oz" so it definitely raised the question of what to expect with trying to get caches listed.

I'm not quite sure I understand this sentence. Maybe there are some words missing. Are you saying that people got hostile and bent out of shape because they thought that they had been criticised for "daring to question" etc etc? As written, it seems like you're saying that they got bent out of shape over something they themselves had done, which doesn't sound right.

 

If your question is whether getting a cache listed is a major ordeal, then, no it isn't. About 250,000 caches have been listed in the last 12 months. About 10 of these have led to forum drama. Your odds are good.

[+tqagirl]

Awesome, thanks for the clarification.

 

And to clarify for some who wondered:

 

I have no agenda other than learning and indulging, but the thread did raise some concerns. I've been aware of geocaching for half a dozen years now and even joined the gc.com previously with a general acct and even that time when I posted a friendly hello I got no reply at all. I checked a month later and still no reply so I thought either the community isn't so welcoming of new people despite the hype or maybe there just wasn't anyone local and both possibilities left me feeling that it would be pointless to hide caches eventually if there's nobody around who'd find them. After we moved and I decided to get more fully immersed, I set up this new acct (forgot the older stuff anyway). It was after checking out the thread that it made me wonder.

 

I do understand human nature and what sorts I'll find on any given forum, and most of them have their cliques for sure - the old timers who get used to things having been around from the start and some of those tend to feel threatened by new people and the changes in general from "how it used to be" - those I just disregard.

 

Mine was mostly concern that it might be pointless across the board (especially after getting the premium membership) at least as far as meeting local people interested, and then having to go through the above sorts of mindsets trying to get involved at all.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate the replies!

Edited November 14, 2009 by tqagirl

[GOF and Bacall]

Leave the chip at the door. You'll get more out of it that way.

[Not Pandora's Box]

deleted

Edited November 15, 2009 by Not Pandora's Box

[+BadAndy]

Reviewers are just people who have volunteered to keep the game moving along. They have a wide range of personalities across the board. Some have ego's to feed, some do not. Some are PC, others are not. Some are funny and full of wit, others are dry as a bone.

 

My point is that they are normal folks, subject to making a mistake now and then. The few bad seeds are eventually removed for the most part.

[+Team Cotati]

I do not believe for one little second that the reviewers are motivated to review caches so that there will be more for them to find.

We've even had reviewers indicate that if a cache that they wouldn't personally want to find meets all the guidelines they simply hold their nose and publish it. My guess is that with the removal of the mention of power trails from the saturation guidelines, there are reviewers who don't like power trails that will now publish them. On the other hand, reviewers who do like power trails are now able to publish these without resorting to all sorts of personal guidelines as to how many caches make a power trail or how close caches have to be to one another to be considered a power trail.

 

"We've even had reviewers indicate that if a cache that they wouldn't personally want to find meets all the guidelines they simply hold their nose and publish it."

 

No, they simply perform the duties that they signed up to perform. One of those, I believe, is to publish caches that meet the publishing criteria of Groundspeak, inc.

 

I also believe that those people are professionals who are capable of doing their job while leaving their personal preferences behind. How it could work otherwise is beyond me.

[+StarBrand]

I know several reviewers and like all humans they are prone to the occasional mistake. But when it comes to big decisions and judgement calls that they review as a group - I implcitly trust they have done right thing - whether the story is fully shared or not.

 

Also keep in mind they will not be reviewers for long if they do not abide by rules handed down from HQ.

[+ironman114]

Awesome, thanks for the clarification.

 

And to clarify for some who wondered:

 

I have no agenda other than learning and indulging, but the thread did raise some concerns. I've been aware of geocaching for half a dozen years now and even joined the gc.com previously with a general acct and even that time when I posted a friendly hello I got no reply at all. I checked a month later and still no reply so I thought either the community isn't so welcoming of new people despite the hype or maybe there just wasn't anyone local and both possibilities left me feeling that it would be pointless to hide caches eventually if there's nobody around who'd find them. After we moved and I decided to get more fully immersed, I set up this new acct (forgot the older stuff anyway). It was after checking out the thread that it made me wonder.

 

I do understand human nature and what sorts I'll find on any given forum, and most of them have their cliques for sure - the old timers who get used to things having been around from the start and some of those tend to feel threatened by new people and the changes in general from "how it used to be" - those I just disregard.

 

Mine was mostly concern that it might be pointless across the board (especially after getting the premium membership) at least as far as meeting local people interested, and then having to go through the above sorts of mindsets trying to get involved at all.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate the replies!

 

Since it seems that no one has said hello and welcome let me start by saying:

 

Welcome to geocaching. Newbies are always welcome here. You can have a lot of fun with this hobby either hiding or finding caches. The forums can be fun at times also. Don't fret over not having a lot of finds or posts. I don't have many of either. I ma not fond of most P&Gs so my count stays low. Just post with thoughtful reasoning and your wisdom will show through.

 

You live in a smaller community and more a sparsely inhabited part of AZ. There will be fewer seekers of your caches but there are seekers out there. I haven't been to your area for a long time (before geocaching started) but if you hid some geocaches in interesting areas I probably would seek some next time I was in the area.

 

I have had a couple of caches where I had to do some extra work to get them approved but it was worth it. I now have One of three physical caches within the Mount St. Helens National Monument. One cache was placed in 2001 before the monument was made and the other in 2003 before there were more stringent guidelines on caches in wilderness and monuments. I was able to get written approval for mine after calling the ranger in charge.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Reviewers are just people who have volunteered to keep the game moving along. They have a wide range of personalities across the board. Some have ego's to feed, some do not. Some are PC, others are not. Some are funny and full of wit, others are dry as a bone.

 

AND, sometimes you feel like a nut.......... sometimes you don't

[Clan Riffster]

Hi tgagirl, welcome to the addictive madness we call geocaching!

As many have stated here, your volunteer reviewers are good folks trying their level best to do a tough job.

99.999% of the time they get it right. Those few times the make mistakes are mostly readily fixed.

The occasional bouts of drama in here are not reflective of the real world of caching.

If you'll start by doing a bunch of reading in here, you'll see who the contrarians, the instigators and the ne'er do wells are.

By emulating those who don't fall into those categories, you'll have a pleasant time in here.

[+popokiiti]

Welcome to the forums tgagirl. I admire the reviewers - they have lives, jobs and families and try to keep us happy too. I am hoping they can still do some geocaching of their own...if they have the time.

We might not always agree with the decisions of the reviewers, or with each other, but we can do so with respect. I think we do so 99.9% of the time - with the help of our moderators. Thanks to those folks also!

[+Shop99er]

Reviewers are just people who have volunteered to keep the game moving along. They have a wide range of personalities across the board. Some have ego's to feed, some do not. Some are PC, others are not. Some are funny and full of wit, others are dry as a bone.

 

My point is that they are normal folks, subject to making a mistake now and then. The few bad seeds are eventually removed for the most part.

 

I know several reviewers, from various areas, and "normal" in NOT how any of them could be described. Other than that BadAndy's pretty much right on the mark, here.