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Hunter etiqutte (meaning the kind with guns)


Vartan84
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I am sure a question has been asked about this in the past, but since the words like "hunter" are so common here on the geocaching board it is too hard to find it via the search. I'd like to give my personal experience from today and see what everyone thinks.

There is a small colonial cemetery in the woods of a state park which I have been wanting to find for years, and turns out a cache is there which I have been eagerly awaiting to do. A friend was in town who had never cached so we went and found our way to ground zero. We made it to GZ and I started to enjoy reading the signs and graves when suddenly we started hearing a thick barrage of cursing. I looked up to see a hunter up in a tree about 20 feet away and he was absolutely livid. In between f-words we could hear him whisper-yelling that he had been out there for 7 and a half hours trying a shoot deer (no idea if he had ever gotten one or not). That's the only part I actually understood because he was essentially screaming in a whisper, but assume the rest of it was how we were ruining it/scaring off deer/whatever with our presence and the leaves crunching under our feet. The guy was holding a crossbow so we retreated, but were really angry to have gone all that way to have this guy chase us away.

My question is what is caching etiquette in regards to hunters, I mean real hunters with guns, not geohunters. On our way to the cache we saw signs saying we were in "SAFE" zones where hunters were not allowed, but presumably the cache itself was in an area of the park where hunting is allowed.

I have never hunted but I felt that as we were in a state park we had the right to be there as much as that hunter. I don't think he had the right to chase us off like that, and of course the fact he started cursing at us without talking anything over with us or anything, just jumped right into livid mode, is beside the point. I know he was wrong there, but my question is do hunters with guns have some sort of extra right which trumps geocachers right to find caches in the same park at that time? Of course if you are just fooling around there or purposely trying to scare off the deer that's one thing, but we were just trying to be in and out.

We decided a few minutes later to make another attempt at GZ, unfortunately I couldn't remember the clue to make it quick. We walked around for a couple minutes searching as quietly as we could, but the hunter was still up there in the tree cursing again. This time he got out a cell phone and called someone (a hunting partner we think) cursing profusely about the kids who were walking around below ruining everything. The sun was about to set and so frankly he should have been wrapping things up anyway. We decided the barraging of quiet curses was just not worth it and had to give up on the geocache, also seeing as he had a crossbow, was furious, and rather unhinged we didn't want to stay around to see what he might do with it. We got back to our car after the sun had set to see at least 6 deer around our car in the parking lot. Serves him right, the hunter didn't deserve to have them.

Don't know the laws in PA, here in Michigan you have as much right to be in a state park during hunting season as a hunter.

The etiquette during hunting season around here is to wear safety orange and not make a spectacle of yourself.

A family with noisy kids, wile rude, is fine.

Single person hooting and hollering is breaking the law and asking for jail and or a fine.

 

In regards to the bold. Is that PA law or your assumption?

In Michigan the hunting hours for deer are from one-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset.

In Virginia we have a number of Wildlife Management Areas as well as State Forests. With that said there are some State Forests where hunters can hunt, and in other areas not. Most of our state parks are closed to hunters but often adjoin Public hunting areas. On our rivers most "wild islands" are considered state property as well. So far since Geocaching has been become popular we have not had any real problems and during hunting season, I usually Geocache on the only day these areas are closed to hunting which is Sunday. Our parks are closed to hunting so I usually pull up a boundary map in those areas and make sure I am well within what I consider a safety zone.

I will say that if you are out hunting up sites/caches during the deer or bear season, it might be a very good idea to wear blaze orange, even though you are not "Deer Hunting". As well a practice I learned early on in my hunting day ( Deer Hunting) was to use a technique called "Splatter Vision" in other words not be singled focused to one spot but taking in the whole area all the time. It gives you an opportunity to see alot more including spotting hunters. Most do not realize that if the hunter is still hunting, deer often will take note of a hiker/GPS Geocacher and then circle around behind them. Either way be careful as some hunters get "deer fever" and anything that moves is interpreted to be a four legged creature that barely stands a little over 3 feet high, ( have actually seen some cars ( of all colours) mistaken for deer when a hunter passed and saw a glint on the other side of the brush pile.

In Virginia its one half hour before sunrise and one half hour after sunset. Harassing hunters is illegal, however it has to be harassment, like intentionally interfering with his hunt. best thing is if you see a hunter, call it a day and come back on a Sunday,

Be safe and look forward to reading more of your posts. Congrats on finding the graveyard.

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Bow hunting is now permitted on Sundays in New Jersey. There are those of us who think: "You've got six days. Please leave us our one day."

I've met many hunters whilst hiking. Most are extremely courteous. As with any group of peope: some are not.

I waved at the guy in the tree stand. He waved back. He probably wasn't happy to see me there. Perhaps he should have put his tree stand further away from the trail? Oh, well. He had his hunting permit. I had my hiking permit.

Five miles in on the AT, I hit my turn around point. Hunter: You're going back up that mountain? You're crazy!

Of the hundreds of hunters I've met, I was only worried twice. One was the guy with the crossbow standing under the "No Hunting" sign. Dude! You're on the wrong side of the highway.

The second was in upstate New York, on land owned by my parents. It's a summer house, so we were seldom there duing hunting season. A pipeline runs across the property. It was well posted with No Hunting signs. A pipeline is not a public right-of-way. We came across a Pinto station wagon with a deer tied to the roof (yes this was a long time ago.) About a 25º slope. He was stuck, and had called two friends with trucks to pull him out. We pointed out that this was private property, and hunting was not permitted. The next morning, we discovered that our mailbox had been run over. No way to prove who had done it, but it was a strange coincidence. The mailbox had been there fifty years. Oh, well.

I do wonder about the hunters at Lehigh Gap, Pa. Six hunters carrying a deer. (I'm sure they knew a better way to get back to their cars than I did to mine. I was parked at the bottom of the gap.) The view is spectacular here, becuse there are no trees. The trees were killed a long time ago by the zinc smelters at Palmerton. Very bad zinc pollution. Warnings post not to drink the water, or bring small children here more than once a year. Nope. I wouldn't eat that deer. But that's just me. But it was state hunting land. So go for it.

BTW, I like the fact that Pa tells it like it is: State Hunting Land. New Jersey wimps out with the euphemism: Wildlife Management Area.

Hunters are like any other group of people. Most are very nice people. A very few are not.

If the hunters have the right to be hunting where they are, then you must respect them, as they should respect you. And, remember to wear your blaze orange, as required by law in many places.

I didn't realize it was hunting season already, until I was passed on the trail by a hunter with a rifle, the other day. Time for Sunday-only geocaching in those areas. Oh, well.

No, I am not a hunter. I think it's the silliest sport ever! But hunters have the right to hunt, and you have to respect that.

 

I agree with you on this point.

 

It is not a sport to me. It is a means to put some good tasting food on the table. I don't hunt for the fun of killing something.

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Bow hunting is now permitted on Sundays in New Jersey. There are those of us who think: "You've got six days. Please leave us our one day."

I've met many hunters whilst hiking. Most are extremely courteous. As with any group of peope: some are not.

I waved at the guy in the tree stand. He waved back. He probably wasn't happy to see me there. Perhaps he should have put his tree stand further away from the trail? Oh, well. He had his hunting permit. I had my hiking permit.

Five miles in on the AT, I hit my turn around point. Hunter: You're going back up that mountain? You're crazy!

Of the hundreds of hunters I've met, I was only worried twice. One was the guy with the crossbow standing under the "No Hunting" sign. Dude! You're on the wrong side of the highway.

The second was in upstate New York, on land owned by my parents. It's a summer house, so we were seldom there duing hunting season. A pipeline runs across the property. It was well posted with No Hunting signs. A pipeline is not a public right-of-way. We came across a Pinto station wagon with a deer tied to the roof (yes this was a long time ago.) About a 25º slope. He was stuck, and had called two friends with trucks to pull him out. We pointed out that this was private property, and hunting was not permitted. The next morning, we discovered that our mailbox had been run over. No way to prove who had done it, but it was a strange coincidence. The mailbox had been there fifty years. Oh, well.

I do wonder about the hunters at Lehigh Gap, Pa. Six hunters carrying a deer. (I'm sure they knew a better way to get back to their cars than I did to mine. I was parked at the bottom of the gap.) The view is spectacular here, becuse there are no trees. The trees were killed a long time ago by the zinc smelters at Palmerton. Very bad zinc pollution. Warnings post not to drink the water, or bring small children here more than once a year. Nope. I wouldn't eat that deer. But that's just me. But it was state hunting land. So go for it.

BTW, I like the fact that Pa tells it like it is: State Hunting Land. New Jersey wimps out with the euphemism: Wildlife Management Area.

Hunters are like any other group of people. Most are very nice people. A very few are not.

If the hunters have the right to be hunting where they are, then you must respect them, as they should respect you. And, remember to wear your blaze orange, as required by law in many places.

I didn't realize it was hunting season already, until I was passed on the trail by a hunter with a rifle, the other day. Time for Sunday-only geocaching in those areas. Oh, well.

No, I am not a hunter. I think it's the silliest sport ever! But hunters have the right to hunt, and you have to respect that.

 

I agree with you on this point.

 

It is not a sport to me. It is a means to put some good tasting food on the table. I don't hunt for the fun of killing something.

If that is silly, then what about adults lifting up a lamp post covers in a parking lots? :D
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The time has come!!

Having read this whole thread, I see how it inspired a ton of opinions, thoughts, and (sometimes mis)conceptions. Well I had been planning on turning the cache hunt in question into the next episode of my geocaching adventure series- so I caught parts of the hunter on tape!

Here you can see everything as it happened!

You can see us stumbling on the cache!

You can see the little graveyard itself- and the hunter's position in relation to it- since I know that was a big worry a lot of people had.

You can't really hear much of what the hunter said but it gives you all an idea and brings new context to the whole situation.

This is not to restart debate- I think we've said all that there is to say- but I think since so many people here were talking about it they'd like to see what actually happened for themselves. Thank you!

 

See the hunter and the hunt here!

Edited by Vartan84
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This is not to restart debate- I think we've said all that there is to say
I'm sorry, but posting that link here can not help but restart the debate. What you did was childish, dangerous (in as much as you went back to where there was an apparently rageful hunter with a crossbow), and idiotic and you should not be glorifying your actions by posting a video of it on YouTube. I am embarrassed that the word "geocaching" is attached to it.

 

I can understand your feelings that you had as much right to be there as he did, and I also realize that his chances of getting his deer had already been ruined and that swearing at you is not going to fix that... but he just spend seven hours waiting for his once-a-year chance to get a deer, and you could not respect that because you wanted to find some tupperware? Sorry, but you were way out of line, in my opinion. (and I am not a hunter)

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oakenwood- I came across this song randomly online. It's called The Clap by Perez Hilton. None of the links are appropriate so I didn't use them but the tune was just so catchy.

 

Clan Riffster- No we did not go past the sign. We turn away from it but then decide to go over the fence which was a different area than the sign was warning about.

 

knowschad- you are entitled to your opinion but I believe you are blowing things way out of proportion. You seem to be exaggerating the situation in numerous ways to demonize us- for example his "once in a year chance to get a deer" was completely ruined by us?? If by once a year you mean deer hunting is permissable for 6 out of 7 days a week for a period of a couple months- and that nothing we did was ruining his chance. He perceived it as runing the chance, sure, but we were there for a total of about 3 minutes (not making any noise or trying to ruin anything- did you not see how we stumbled across him trying to get the chance- not purposely ruining anything for him...). How could we not respect that? Sure we ventured back towards the cache for what you see was about a minute but we got right back out of there. What is it that we weren't being respectful about- and why was the complete responsibility on us to be completely respectful anyway when he had treated us with none? I am not saying taunt someone with a weapon, but you seem to be fervently blaming us for this whole situation, as if stumbling across a hunter is us being disrespectful.

 

The only thing we might have ruined for him anyway was our scent being on the scene- but he wasn't hunting where we were but in front of him down in the valley. He could hardly expect for no one to ever show up as it was a public park after all.

 

Turns out deer hunting had not started yet so he wasn't hunting deer but not sure what.

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I saw the video after reading the replies about this "debate". I am a hunter and as to sitting in a stand for seven hours, it happens, usually hunters will sit on a stand all day. Especially when Bow hunting. In most respects you were both wrong, not an answer I am sure you wanted to hear, but there seemed to be a "challenge mentality' present on boat sides. I have had hunters ( with guns) walk through the area as well as have dogs run right past me. The point is that neither you or he were in the right, ultimately it could have ended worse, and in some respects a local warden may have written you up for interfering. Bow season usually precedes the gun season. Its not a question of right to be in the woods, that aspect changed when the confrontation began. As they say "discretion is the better part of valor" as well many Bowhunters belong to hunting associations as I do, and the hunting lobby is to say the least powerful enough to bring pressure to bear to perhaps close good cache areas. As well the point where you became the "aggressor " and he the harassed, on your return. In hearing the discussions on both sides,one theme is apparent, the confrontation could have been diffused and you could have shown whose was the bigger person by writing that site off till a time .

The disturbing part was climbing the fence, leased lands are the same as having the rights as the deeded owner. It was clear in the video, and although humorous as to figure away around the "prohibition' by scaling the fence, usually they are there for a reason, livestock, crops etc. usually one asks before crossing private property or leased property as the rights of the lessee are the same as the lessor. Posting of the video shown the crossing of the fence, and as well I hope that in that area it does not come back to adversely affecting other Cache Hunters. A fear that many have as to public areas could be closed as well as property owners who might see the video and say point blank to anyone Cacher or hunter "No Tresspassing". As well in this area where I live is still basically rural, livestock roam from sun up to sun down and across the road from me the farmer raises beef for market with a very high population of Bulls. Some of these stay out all night under the trees and are quite aggressive in their own right as to charging fences as well as people.

Regardless of who thinks they were in the right, you all were in the wrong, his challenges with verbal abuse, your returning to the scene only to irritate. Personally I think a cache site within a graveyard is wrong in that there is a lessened respect of the grave sites. As well his language to you was confrontational, not excusable.

The presence of the video here clearly demonstrated the wrongs, lots of them not just the hunter. in my earlier years I was a law enforcement officer, had I been called and you shown me the part where he was swearing I would have asked to see the entire clip as I did tonight. He may have gone to jail, for verbal abuse, however there is also the presence of the act of crossing the fence and that could have resulted in your being charged as well for tresspass and possibly along the tape showing an intention to harass the hunter. Not an attorney but am an ex investigator who probably would have issued summons to all parties. taking into consideration the evidentary value of the tape.

his use of language was force, as was your returning to the site. Please review the tape you posted and you will see my points, no one (again) was right. All of this could have ended with some courtesy and respect from both sides.

Perhaps we should sign as others in other areas a code of conduct, as a diver who researches shipwrecks for historical documentation I have signed an agreement as to respecting not only sites marked as gravesites but not to disturb any site which may later be researched.

Lee

 

oakenwood- I came across this song randomly online. It's called The Clap by Perez Hilton. None of the links are appropriate so I didn't use them but the tune was just so catchy.

 

Clan Riffster- No we did not go past the sign. We turn away from it but then decide to go over the fence which was a different area than the sign was warning about.

 

knowschad- you are entitled to your opinion but I believe you are blowing things way out of proportion. You seem to be exaggerating the situation in numerous ways to demonize us- for example his "once in a year chance to get a deer" was completely ruined by us?? If by once a year you mean deer hunting is permissable for 6 out of 7 days a week for a period of a couple months- and that nothing we did was ruining his chance. He perceived it as runing the chance, sure, but we were there for a total of about 3 minutes (not making any noise or trying to ruin anything- did you not see how we stumbled across him trying to get the chance- not purposely ruining anything for him...). How could we not respect that? Sure we ventured back towards the cache for what you see was about a minute but we got right back out of there. What is it that we weren't being respectful about- and why was the complete responsibility on us to be completely respectful anyway when he had treated us with none? I am not saying taunt someone with a weapon, but you seem to be fervently blaming us for this whole situation, as if stumbling across a hunter is us being disrespectful.

 

The only thing we might have ruined for him anyway was our scent being on the scene- but he wasn't hunting where we were but in front of him down in the valley. He could hardly expect for no one to ever show up as it was a public park after all.

 

Turns out deer hunting had not started yet so he wasn't hunting deer but not sure what.

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knowschad- you are entitled to your opinion but I believe you are blowing things way out of proportion. You seem to be exaggerating the situation in numerous ways to demonize us- for example his "once in a year chance to get a deer" was completely ruined by us?? If by once a year you mean deer hunting is permissable for 6 out of 7 days a week for a period of a couple months- and that nothing we did was ruining his chance. He perceived it as runing the chance, sure, but we were there for a total of about 3 minutes (not making any noise or trying to ruin anything- did you not see how we stumbled across him trying to get the chance- not purposely ruining anything for him...). How could we not respect that? Sure we ventured back towards the cache for what you see was about a minute but we got right back out of there. What is it that we weren't being respectful about- and why was the complete responsibility on us to be completely respectful anyway when he had treated us with none? I am not saying taunt someone with a weapon, but you seem to be fervently blaming us for this whole situation, as if stumbling across a hunter is us being disrespectful.

 

The only thing we might have ruined for him anyway was our scent being on the scene- but he wasn't hunting where we were but in front of him down in the valley. He could hardly expect for no one to ever show up as it was a public park after all.

 

Turns out deer hunting had not started yet so he wasn't hunting deer but not sure what.

I think you need to sit down and have a serious talk with a deer hunter. Ask them how much it costs them to hunt every year, how many meals they get from that deer, what their gear costs them, and so on. If you really listen with open ears, I think you will come away with a much different opinion. You ruined plenty for him. I agree that he could have behaved MUCH better, but I don't blame him for his anger, either. If you had been in his shoes, you would have been equally angry, I'm sure. You should have said, quietly, "We're sorry!" and left the scene, even though you had probably already ruined his chances.

Turns out deer hunting had not started yet so he wasn't hunting deer but not sure what.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that. Gun season may not have begun, but I don't know a single deer hunter, and I know plenty, that do not know the season limits. Edited by knowschad
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Look... regardless of who was right, and who was wrong... it was stupid and reckless behavior to take a chance at going back there after a hunter with a crossbow had been cussing at you, and I don't like to see that sort of reckless behavior promoted on YouTube with much revelry and laughter. It was dumb, plain and simple. People HAVE been shot over hunting disagreements. That is not fiction or speculation. Perhaps I should be praising you for being willing to give your lives to what you believe it, but somehow I don't think this incident should quite be elevated to that status.

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The disturbing part was climbing the fence, leased lands are the same as having the rights as the deeded owner. It was clear in the video, and although humorous as to figure away around the "prohibition' by scaling the fence, usually they are there for a reason, livestock, crops etc. usually one asks before crossing private property or leased property as the rights of the lessee are the same as the lessor. Posting of the video shown the crossing of the fence, and as well I hope that in that area it does not come back to adversely affecting other Cache Hunters. A fear that many have as to public areas could be closed as well as property owners who might see the video and say point blank to anyone Cacher or hunter "No Tresspassing".

 

No no no no, we did not break any law. The do not pass gate sign was for a gate facing in another direction. We decided to go over the fence because it was in the direction in the geocache and was NOT part of the off-limits area. The off-limits area was through the gate and along the fence but on the other side. There was no prohibition for the gate in question and in fact was directly in line with the cache direction pointing.

Also this was a public park as I said before so there was 0 chance that we were crossing onto private or farm property. It is a completely public park and there was certainly no sign forbidding going there, only to a portion through a gate (towards the stables, which is why I think it said don't go) which is not the same area as over the fence.

 

So while I would certainly accept some blame, I assure you I would not have gone to jail for trespassing as I was in a public park and the fence was not off-limits, and furthermore where the incident happened was obviously very public property. We got onto a path at the back of the field and continued into the woods, eventually finding our way to the cache. I can understand not being seen as completely in the right for going back after we had backed away a few meters (though you must understand how long and hard we worked to get there. We were not doing anything of a "harassing" nature, just him mind you, and we didn't feel we were in the wrong to attempt to find the cache for a minute and then leave.) I frankly find the claims we were harassing him to be quite dubious as it is obvious he instigated the harassment.

 

I mean really, what is it that we did of a harassing nature? We were as quiet as could possibly expected. I would think that hunters would agree that if you are on public lands you have to deal with what's around you and if a circus parade suddenly marches through well that was just your bad luck. A couple of kids tiptoeing around in an area which was NOT near your line of fire is far from harassment. We were not infringing on his right to be there and didn't even know he was there when we got there.

 

Certainly I can understand him asking us to go somewhere else if we suddenly decided to set up camp for the night there. If he had done it nicely I don't see how there would be an issue at all, but as it is a public part we would not be obligated to actually leave. If we had been standing there screaming or purposely messing up the hunt I can understand calling a ranger, but as it is a public park we have the right to pass through as anyone else, and clearly all we did was pass through for a minute or two.

 

I see this the same way as if someone just set up camp right in the middle of a hiking trail in a public park. Let's just say that is their hobby, blocking paths. If others had been hiking all day and are almost at their destination, and then encounter that person, does said blocking person have the right- as part of their hobby- to start screaming at the hikers for entering their zone and forbid them to pass- ruining their hike? No of course not. So why should a hunter, who mind you was aiming down into a valley in the other direction anyway, have the right to stop us from what we were doing, as quickly and quietly as we could.

Yes, he had a crossbow, I understand that and the extra sense of danger it adds. However, what if the person who set up camp in the middle of the path also happened to be a hunter and had a gun on him- not saying he threatened to use it on the others- just that he had it. Does the fact he had a weapon in his possession give him extra rights? Would the fact that the others who needed to continue hiking past him actually try to get by, instead of having to turn around and hike all the way back for hours, make them somehow equally (or more, according to you) at fault here?

Sure I might sound naive, of course you don't want to go stirring up situations involving people with guns. HOWEVER, how can you possibly say that having a gun on you in a public park means you deserve extra consideration because you have a weapon? You do see how this could lead to a vigilante mentality where hunters could literally take over the entire park and infringe their will on all other areas because after all they are the ones standing around with guns as opposed to just playing baseball or hiking or geocaching.

 

It just seems to me that there is an abundance of sympathy for the hunter, despite him giving no reason for pity. It seems here the definition of harassment is "doing something a hunter doesn't like". I bet he wouldn't have liked it if no prey showed up that day, or if it rained, or if a plane went overheard potentially scaring some away. I don't see how that is any different than a person passing through, which is all we did. If we had wanted to actually harass him we would have never left, and yet the very point that we were ever there and that he was upset seems to be all that is necessary to paint the hunter as at least 50% the victim here.

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The video clearly showed the 'geocachers' as arrogant, citified liberals. The hunter certainly had a colorful lexicon, but he simply asked if you were going to be long. He was basically trying to figure out if his day was ruined, or not. Dawn and dusk are the 'GZ' of deer hunting.

 

I don't come close to seeing how or where political affiliation comes into play here.

Did you read what he screamed at us? He screamed at us to "go f***ing find it somewhere else" the second he saw us. Never did he "simply ask us if you were going to be long". My Lord I thought some people were misrepresenting the story by claiming things like we were trespassing but your faulty interpretation which defies obvious fact takes the cake.

Also I think you must have an unhealthy pathological dislike of "liberals" if you somehow managed to paint me and my friends as such based on that video. And citified? I'll have you know I live right next to a farm and at least an hour from the closest city.

 

You should have said, quietly, "We're sorry!" and left the scene, even though you had probably already ruined his chances.

 

Umm except we ruined his chances unintentionally by stumbling across his location. How and why are you painting us as evil for doing something completely by accident? We don't owe him anything. If he wanted to insure complete solitude he should have gone to one of those hunting preserves or private property. Sorry but you can't possibly expect someone hunting in a public park to have guaranteed alone time for 7 hours straight, it just isn't going to happen and in fact should be expected as it is a very popular park.

 

I SERIOUSLY doubt that. Gun season may not have begun, but I don't know a single deer hunter, and I know plenty, that do not know the season limits.

 

Huh? All I said was I don't know what he was hunting but it wasn't deer because deer season begins in this state on December 1 and that was early November. I am not sure what you are saying here but my fact is indisputable.

Edited by Vartan84
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It just seems to me that there is an abundance of sympathy for the hunter, despite him giving no reason for pity. It seems here the definition of harassment is "doing something a hunter doesn't like". I bet he wouldn't have liked it if no prey showed up that day, or if it rained, or if a plane went overheard potentially scaring some away. I don't see how that is any different than a person passing through, which is all we did. If we had wanted to actually harass him we would have never left, and yet the very point that we were ever there and that he was upset seems to be all that is necessary to paint the hunter as at least 50% the victim here.

 

It is obvious to even us non-hunters that you know nothing about that activity. You can chose to go to another cache. You didn't set up a tree stand and watch that cache for seven hours! Jeeze... give these guys a break! You can go to other caches... your caches don't spook and run away just because someone walked near them. An airplane flying overhead does not have the same effect on a deer as a human walking nearby (even a "quiet" one... it is your smell as much or more than your sounds that spooks them). You were totally innocent in entering that hunter's area. He should have been more gracious. But you were no longer innocent when you decided to go back in spite of knowing that he was there. Sorry... you were wrong.

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I don't care if he was hunting deer, or if he was hunting English sparrows. You were in the wrong. He had a limited season and you had an otherwise unlimted season. You could have gone elsewhere, he had no other choice. You spooked his game and ruined his chances, your cache will still be there next time. He spent a lot of money for his chance to sit there for seven hours. You spent nothing but the same gas money that he spent. Come on, guys... you can be bigger than this... you were not only wrong, but you boast about it on YouTube, and that bothers me. Once more... I'm not even a hunter! Ask their opinion if you don't like mine.

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I'm not boasting about it on youtube. This is part of my geocaching series and I tape when I go to caches and make videos of it. I certainly wasn't going to let him get in the way of my video series too besides the cache, so up it went. Nowhere do I claim to be a hero though, and in fact we of course make a very hasty retreat out of there instead of doing anything heroic.

Also there were no other caches in the park to go to, I had no other coordinates, and my friend from Chicago was there that day only so by missing out on the cache we missed out on any and all possibility to cache with her. Just giving you more context on why this was important to us.

Edited by Vartan84
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We were as quiet as could possibly expected. I would think that hunters would agree that if you are on public lands you have to deal with what's around you and if a circus parade suddenly marches through well that was just your bad luck. A couple of kids tiptoeing around in an area which was NOT near your line of fire is far from harassment

 

That is far from what I saw on the video. You and especially the person taking the video were speaking extremely loud. You were also not exactly tiptoeing (reference was made on the video how loud the leaves were to walk on) and you are not exactly "kids".

 

I am also not a hunter but can empathize more with the hunter than you and your group. He may have been rude and disrespectful first but you weren't exactly smart in your response to him.

 

Line of fire has nothing to do with it. Nor do circus parades... get real.

 

Bottom line is no one was right here and you endangered you and your friends lives and posted it online.

 

I wonder if he would have had a video camera and taped you, how many people on hunting forums would be thinking how stupid and rude geocachers are?

 

Bruce.

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From the Ridley Creek State Park website:

"Due to the number of white-tailed deer in Ridley Creek State Park and in an effort to increase the ecological diversity of the park archery deer hunting will be permitted in SOME posted park areas, September 19, 2009 through January 23, 2010"

 

The cache, GCDAA "Colonial Cache," has "hunting area" listed as an attribute. A cache .97 miles away, another 1.2 miles away (seemingly in the same state park), and a third 1.4 miles away do NOT have "hunting area" listed as an attribute. The onus for cache hunters: be aware of your area's hunting season(s) and hunt smart.

 

My .02 (as a hunter of beasts and tupperware): the hunter behaved inconsiderately out of frustration over a wasted hunt, and so did you. You lost me when you decided to go back (even for a minute, even tiptoeing through the leaves), and you REALLY lost me when one of you shouted back into the woods "you can shoot them now!" I thought this was petty, childish, and I felt genuinely embarrassed for you.

 

I do not excuse the hunter's behavior (I've had many hunts ruined as his was, and I gritted my teeth and remembered to be civil), but I cannot excuse your behavior subsequent to the initial encounter. You asked, and IMHO, etiquette on his part should have been to show patience, and etiquette on your part should have been to quietly leave once he'd finished ranting (or, even better, during his rant).

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I know this is way off topic but just as a concern should you be videoing your adventures? I have watched almost all the videos you listed in your thread about joining virtually and I found them to be amusing and interesting. However, in all the ones that I saw you videotaped where the cache was how it was hidden exactly what it looked like etc. Isn't that spoiling the cache for any others? I realize you did not say the GC# but even without that couldn't you cutaway until after removing the container from its hiding spot?

 

on topic I would have to say that if I was the hunter I would have been frustrated. You did not deserve the cursing that you received you definitely had the right to be there. Realizing that you did it on accident I would say that you are completely in the clear but perhaps should not go so hard on the hunter.

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There is a little used, rail bed trail that came to my attention when another cacher placed a hide there. Seeing many places that would make good cache locations, I set out to place some hides. I didn't realize that the land that the public had access to was only 60' wide and the land on either side was owned by people who either hunted deer or allowed deer hunters to use their land. To make matters worse, gun season started the morning after my caches were published.

 

On that morning two Goefriends of mine went on an FTF run. They were met my yells from hunters telling them to leave.

 

They cachers contacted me about the dangerous situation. I disabled the caches until January when all the deer seasons are over.

 

Its a big world out there and we all have to share it.

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I know this is way off topic but just as a concern should you be videoing your adventures? I have watched almost all the videos you listed in your thread about joining virtually and I found them to be amusing and interesting. However, in all the ones that I saw you videotaped where the cache was how it was hidden exactly what it looked like etc. Isn't that spoiling the cache for any others? I realize you did not say the GC# but even without that couldn't you cutaway until after removing the container from its hiding spot?

 

Thanks for the kind words, I really appreciate the support!

I had someone leave a comment on the video once that I was ruining the hobby for others with my videos, but I disagree. Watching a video of a hunt isn't any different than reading the precise listing of spoiler clues and comments. I think it would be obvious to someone that a video of a hunt might give away some information- if not all information. I don't include every second of the hunt, and really most woods look the same in that it wouldn't be all that easy to go "oh I recognize that tree!" when there are 500 others within 500 feet, but yes it would be possible to learn parts of the trail by watching the video.

 

I don't see it as a problem though because these are only 9 cache spoiler in a game of so many thousands. Someone watching from California would never have to worry about it being ruined because they will probably never have a chance to even find these being so far away. And really, unless you seriously were trying to memorize every part of the video as a way to find the cache, I don't expect it to ruin anyone's hunt who might be nearby.

 

As for the cache placers, I've sent them links to the video of finding their cache and those that have responded have only been positive. In fact the guy who placed this latest one asked me to make a video finding another one of his as well, which I plan on doing. I think it is an interesting idea I never thought of to cut away from the reveal of the cache. That was always like the climax of the video for me (for example episode 2 especially), wandering around for so long it is satisfying to see us actually discover the cache- but perhaps if possible in future videos i will consider if it would be ok to cut away from the reveal.

Edited by Vartan84
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IMHO - You had every right to be there and look for the cache. Hunting season does not mean public land is off limit to other users. If one wants privacy one needs to find a spot in which no one would likely go near, where is certainly not the vicinity of a cemetery.

 

That being said, if I came upon a hunter in a stand I would quietly and quickly leave the area, as it is simply good manners. He was there first.

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He was there first.

There's the correct answer.

 

Wasn't the hunt already ruined by the inadvertent presence of hikers/cachers? If so, wouldn't it have been gracious of the hunter to let them finish their "hunt" and just call it a day on his hunt...try again the next day...instead of running them off with his aggressive language?

Edited by Lone R
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It just seems to me that there is an abundance of sympathy for the hunter, despite him giving no reason for pity. It seems here the definition of harassment is "doing something a hunter doesn't like". I bet he wouldn't have liked it if no prey showed up that day, or if it rained, or if a plane went overheard potentially scaring some away. I don't see how that is any different than a person passing through, which is all we did. If we had wanted to actually harass him we would have never left, and yet the very point that we were ever there and that he was upset seems to be all that is necessary to paint the hunter as at least 50% the victim here.

 

It is obvious to even us non-hunters that you know nothing about that activity. You can chose to go to another cache. You didn't set up a tree stand and watch that cache for seven hours! Jeeze... give these guys a break! You can go to other caches... your caches don't spook and run away just because someone walked near them. An airplane flying overhead does not have the same effect on a deer as a human walking nearby (even a "quiet" one... it is your smell as much or more than your sounds that spooks them). You were totally innocent in entering that hunter's area. He should have been more gracious. But you were no longer innocent when you decided to go back in spite of knowing that he was there. Sorry... you were wrong.

 

I'll adress both posts here.

 

Vartan84 -- If I am hunting and no game shows up, I am disappointed, but I still had a chance to be in the woods for a day. If it rains, I may stay on the hunt as long as it is not torrential (lightning is a different matter -- you can find me at the house, then -- but that is a safety issue) -- I actually harvested my first deer by staying out when it was starting to sleet a bit. A plane overhead happens quite frequently and the wildlife becomes accustomed to the sound.

 

Also, if you walk in the 1st time, not knowing I am there, then you realize I am there, and you leave quietly, I'll call that bad luck on both our parts and try and re-focus on the hunt and determine if I need to move my location. Later in the afternoon, moving becomes less of an option, though. Now, once you know I am there, if you start making all sorts of noise, or if you leave and come back, making a noisy entrance -- now I may consider that harassment, and I will begin to contemplate calling the Game Warden or other authority responsible for the land to report the situation and let them deal with everything and make the determination if there was actual harassment. I'll do my best not to say anything to you, though, so I don't get carried away and get myself in trouble. You did not "pass through" -- you left and re-entered, and I can see how that could be considered harassment.

 

knowschad -- thank you very much for your thoughtful replies to this thread. I am thankful to know that there are non-hunters out there who have an open mind about our pursuit and realize that we make significant investments and sacrifices to try and give ourselves an extra smidgen of a chance for a successful hunt.

 

For those who geocache on public lands that are open to hunting, what do you pay to access that land? Often, nothing. Yes, we may go out there for CITO every now and then, but for the most part, we use the land for free and give nothing in return. Who pays for the upkeep of the land, then? In most states, the majority of those funds come from hunting and fishing license sales. In other words, the hunters spend the money that keeps the land available to everyone else for hiking, photography, orienteering, and, yes, geocaching. Kind of puts a different spin on it now, doesn't it?

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Wasn't the hunt already ruined by the inadvertent presence of hikers/cachers? If so, wouldn't it have been gracious of the hunter to let them finish their "hunt" and just call it a day on his hunt...try again the next day...instead of running them off with his aggressive language?

 

If they get out of there soon enough and quietly enough, no, his hunt may not be ruined based on wind conditions, amount of legal hunting hours left, etc.

 

As I have stated before, the behavior of the individual they encountered is INEXCUSABLE, and I say that as a hunter. However, the cachers' choice to go back is inexcusable as well. It's like a dog that starts growling at you when you come around a corner, and you retreat back around the corner. If you go back around the corner and try and pet the dog, are you going to be surprised, or are you going to want my sympathy, when he bites you? I'm not saying it was OK for the dog to bite you -- I'm saying that you took an action with foreseeable consequences that you chose to ignore, and you bear some responsibility for the outcome of the situation.

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I am a hunter and a geocacher the one thing that comes to mind was were you wearing orange clothing or just normalclothes and coat. I have had times when hunting that bird watchers, joggers and people just out to enjoy the state forest or game lands like I am. When you are hunting ie for deer and someone comes into your area wearing their nice warm brown barn jacket and crunching through the leaves. It could end bad! They may scare the real prey away which can tick you off after being in an area since before sun rise being as quiet as possible and someone comes and messes that area up for you at least for awhile. But other hunters do that too. I don't like thinking about possibly killing someone because they are just out to have fun. The thing to do is wear orange if you see a hunter first leave and come back another time unless it is something you can find in a few seconds. As much as we have the right to look for a cache the hunter has a right hunt. If you were looking for a cache and I came upon you while I was hunting I would quietly leave you alone and because you were there first>It just needs to be a little mutural respect.

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I really do not understand this 'etiquette' thing in this context.

 

I'd call it common sense.

 

You find yourself, either accidentially or with advance knowledge, to be in a location where others are engaged in the activity of hunting animals with deadly weapons.

 

You happen upon one of those hunters with deadly weapons who are hunting those animals.

 

Whether or not the hunter requests that you leave. Whether or not he asks you nicely.

 

Leave.

 

This action on your part is unrelated to the game of geocaching.

Edited by Team Cotati
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Just to add one side note that the reminders to wear blaze orange brought to mind: orange helps to not only identify the wearer as not a target, but also lets the shooter know that his entire field of fire, or at least a significant portion of it, has been compromised and it is unsafe to take a shot at a legitimate target. He recounted a couple of instances where a hunter, unaware of the presence of somebody else in the general area due to their lack of identifying clothing, took a shot at a valid target and the "unannounced" person was hit by a ricochet, a deflected bullet, or in one case a ricochet after a thru-and thru.

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Hi Vartan, a couple intemperate thoughts:

 

1 ) I hope you didn't think I was accusing you of trespassing. If so, I'd like to clear that up. What I was asking, was based upon what you showed in the video. Specifically, cachers approaching signs telling them not to go past a gate, then that same bunch of cachers hopping a fence. I appreciate you filling us in on the lay of the land, because the video was not very clear. Kudos for not trespassing! :D

 

2 ) I really liked the video. I think, (with the exception of the hunter interaction), it really showed the game in a positive light. A group of youngsters enjoying Momma Nature is a really kewl thing to watch, and the enthusiasm of your group really shines through. I hope you'll continue your video documentary, as you have a talent for it. Most geocaching videos I've watched have been mind numbing snooze-a-thons. Your's was actually enjoyable. More kudos! :D

 

3 ) That being said, many folks on here have tried to educate you regarding forest use etiquette, but this hasn't sunk in. We're not telling you that these are rules that must be followed, or dire consequences await. We're just telling you what's right and what's wrong. If you can learn from this experience, then I'll consider this topic a success. Since he was there first, and his activity is limited to certain dates and times, while your activity can occur just about any time, it is rude to disturb him. You didn't know that he was there, so no fault can be laid at your feet for your initial encounter. Where I feel you erred is, when you encountered him, you engaged in conversation, defended your actions, and returned to disturb him again. The appropriate response in this situation would have been to give him a wave, acknowledging his presence, then walk away quietly, returning another day. I know this is tough to do when you've walked quite a ways to show a young lady her first cache, but being polite should be your first consideration.

 

Does that mean the hunter was right for cursing at you?

 

Heck no! He was a jerk, plain and simple.

 

But two wrongs don't make a right.

 

(though I hear three rights make a left...) :):):)

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2 ) I really liked the video. I think, (with the exception of the hunter interaction), it really showed the game in a positive light. A group of youngsters enjoying Momma Nature is a really kewl thing to watch, and the enthusiasm of your group really shines through. I hope you'll continue your video documentary, as you have a talent for it. Most geocaching videos I've watched have been mind numbing snooze-a-thons. Your's was actually enjoyable. More kudos! :)

I have to agree with this part. Aside from the hunter interaction, I did enjoy the video. More than most geocaching videos, to tell the truth.
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He is hunting in a CEMETARY. That is wrong in many different ways. Firstly, who to say the visitor isn't there to pay respects to a friend or relative. Secondly, unless this guy is a perfect shot, he could easily damage the headstones.

 

The only way he has the right to do what he did is if it is his family's private cemetary.

 

Sounds to me if he hadn't seen deer in 7 1/2 hours, he should change locations anyway.

 

so then by your reasoning a cache in the cemetery would also be wrong.

 

Ridiculous. The hunter was out of line. Period. He should have realized there was a good possiblity of being "interrupted" in a public place (both a park and a cemetary) and set up elsewhere. It's nobody's problem but his if he has limited time and paid a fee. The only reason the cachers were stupid, but, not out of line, is that they went back to a cursing man with a gun.

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He is hunting in a CEMETARY. That is wrong in many different ways. Firstly, who to say the visitor isn't there to pay respects to a friend or relative. Secondly, unless this guy is a perfect shot, he could easily damage the headstones.

 

The only way he has the right to do what he did is if it is his family's private cemetary.

 

Sounds to me if he hadn't seen deer in 7 1/2 hours, he should change locations anyway.

 

so then by your reasoning a cache in the cemetery would also be wrong.

 

Ridiculous. The hunter was out of line. Period. He should have realized there was a good possiblity of being "interrupted" in a public place (both a park and a cemetary) and set up elsewhere. It's nobody's problem but his if he has limited time and paid a fee. The only reason the cachers were stupid, but, not out of line, is that they went back to a cursing man with a gun.

 

Did you see that cemetary that you speak of? It is a historic cemetery, certainly hasn't been active for many years. I would guess that very few are even aware of its existance. While it is a public place, it doesn't appear (to me) to be all that public. The hunter set up his stand there because he felt that he had a reasonable chance of NOT being interrupted, I'm sure.

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He is hunting in a CEMETARY. That is wrong in many different ways. Firstly, who to say the visitor isn't there to pay respects to a friend or relative. Secondly, unless this guy is a perfect shot, he could easily damage the headstones.

 

The only way he has the right to do what he did is if it is his family's private cemetary.

 

Sounds to me if he hadn't seen deer in 7 1/2 hours, he should change locations anyway.

 

so then by your reasoning a cache in the cemetery would also be wrong.

 

Ridiculous. The hunter was out of line. Period. He should have realized there was a good possiblity of being "interrupted" in a public place (both a park and a cemetary) and set up elsewhere. It's nobody's problem but his if he has limited time and paid a fee. The only reason the cachers were stupid, but, not out of line, is that they went back to a cursing man with a gun.

 

Did you see that cemetary that you speak of? It is a historic cemetery, certainly hasn't been active for many years. I would guess that very few are even aware of its existance. While it is a public place, it doesn't appear (to me) to be all that public. The hunter set up his stand there because he felt that he had a reasonable chance of NOT being interrupted, I'm sure.

 

I know what public means and it isn't populated. I know a lot of hunters and they have better sense than to hunt on public lands in a place where there is an increased chance of encountering other people especially in a safe zone. I hunt and would never expect anything but mutual respect from other users of the land. The hunter is a lazy rude and dangerous egoist. the goecachers while dull are not in violation of any rule or regulation.

Edited by llano
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Hi Vartan, a couple intemperate thoughts:

 

1

 

i don't think this word "intemperate" means what you think it means. i was expecting maybe some intemperate thoughts and got instead somthing polite and collected. i was very disappointed.

 

if you are going to promise me intemperacy, i will expect you to deliver on it much the same as if you promise me other forms of excitement and i will likewise expect a good deal of fun.

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the goecachers while dull are not in violation of any rule or regulation.

 

Perhaps not, but they were certainly rude. They also didn't use any form of sense. Returning to the vicinity of a pissed off dude with a weapon. Certainly they had the right to be there. But had the hunter gone off the rails it wouldn't matter who was right, they'd be just as dead. Highly unlikely but not impossible. These sort of things happen all the time. As for being in violation of rules or regs it has been mentioned that in many states it is illegal to intentionally interfere with a hunt. Returning the second time was intentional.

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I know a lot of hunters and they have better sense than to hunt on public lands in a place where there is an increased chance of encountering other people especially in a safe zone. I hunt and would never expect anything but mutual respect from other users of the land.
I agree with this part. I learned quickly that hunting on public land was (typically) a waste of time for a number of reasons including that reason.
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The hunter is a lazy rude and dangerous egoist. the goecachers while dull are not in violation of any rule or regulation.
In my opinion, you are right in both cases. I am not arguing with you on those points. Two wrongs don't make a throng. (that was a quote from a very early Bob Dylan album)

 

Thank you and I hate a throng. Public and private have nothing to do with how many people go there though and everything to do with access. The rest IS etiquette, and the one who violated it is the hunter first, and then, he opened the door for the cachers, who responded in kind, as would be expected.

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...and in fact we of course make a very hasty retreat out of there instead of doing anything heroic.

 

A VERY HASTY RETREAT?? After leaving the immediate area, you debated amongst yourselves about going back just to "spite the hunter". And sure enough, you and your female friend walked right back to the spot where this entire train wreck occurred.

 

The hunter was wrong for cursing all of you, but you were just as wrong, and quite honestly stupid, for going back to "spite the hunter", especially when you knew he had a crossbow. The last thing I would do is antagonize someone who has a weapon that could potentially kill me or my friends. That's not saying he would have shot you with it, but you never know for sure. You had the chance to show the world that you are the bigger person by respecting a rude hunter's hunting space, but instead, you chose to come down to his level. You've done nothing to improve the image of geocachers. :blink:

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...and in fact we of course make a very hasty retreat out of there instead of doing anything heroic.

 

A VERY HASTY RETREAT?? After leaving the immediate area, you debated amongst yourselves about going back just to "spite the hunter". And sure enough, you and your female friend walked right back to the spot where this entire train wreck occurred.

 

The hunter was wrong for cursing all of you, but you were just as wrong, and quite honestly stupid, for going back to "spite the hunter", especially when you knew he had a crossbow. The last thing I would do is antagonize someone who has a weapon that could potentially kill me or my friends. That's not saying he would have shot you with it, but you never know for sure. You had the chance to show the world that you are the bigger person by respecting a rude hunter's hunting space, but instead, you chose to come down to his level. You've done nothing to improve the image of geocachers. :blink:

 

I am certain that the legal, albeit dumb, actions of these geocachers in the presence of one self-centered hunter on public lands did little to impact world perception of geocaching.

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...and in fact we of course make a very hasty retreat out of there instead of doing anything heroic.

 

A VERY HASTY RETREAT?? After leaving the immediate area, you debated amongst yourselves about going back just to "spite the hunter". And sure enough, you and your female friend walked right back to the spot where this entire train wreck occurred.

 

The hunter was wrong for cursing all of you, but you were just as wrong, and quite honestly stupid, for going back to "spite the hunter", especially when you knew he had a crossbow. The last thing I would do is antagonize someone who has a weapon that could potentially kill me or my friends. That's not saying he would have shot you with it, but you never know for sure. You had the chance to show the world that you are the bigger person by respecting a rude hunter's hunting space, but instead, you chose to come down to his level. You've done nothing to improve the image of geocachers. :blink:

 

I am certain that the legal, albeit dumb, actions of these geocachers in the presence of one self-centered hunter on public lands did little to impact world perception of geocaching.

 

They don't have to impact the "world" perception of geocaching... just a few land owners and then they talk to another..... and another.... etc....

 

Look at the big picture. Geocaching is not nearly as popular as hunting... we need to all be good ambassadors of the sport/hobby/addiction.

 

I don't think the hunter was anymore right than the geocachers... but can't we all try to be the bigger man? (or woman(but not too many women like the word bigger))

 

Bruce.

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