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Objectionable Posting: You Make The Call...


OzGuff

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I was raised with the belief that I had to tolerate other's often objectional opinions and statements so that I was free to state my own opinions and statements, even if they were objectionable to THE MAJORITY, much less any one individual.

That sounds like something a constitutional scholar would say. I agree wholeheartedly. After reading back through the TOS, I think it bothered me more that GS was so exclusionary in the scope of their rules. If I'm the 1% that doesn't like something, then I can get it banned from the other 99%. That's too progressive for me.

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I was raised with the belief that I had to tolerate other's often objectional opinions and statements so that I was free to state my own opinions and statements, even if they were objectionable to THE MAJORITY, much less any one individual.

That sounds like something a constitutional scholar would say. I
Thanks, but I think it was actually my 3rd grade teacher, Mrs Bingingham.
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My point is that this thread has a hidden agenda. It was a deliberate attempt to defame a member of the local geocaching community. Atrus, Paperman1 and catlover are some of the most gentle, kind and fun loving geocachers in this community. I know them personally, and I am telling you that I know the OP just as well.

I see... it was really the OP that uploaded that offensive photo? How sneaky of him!!

 

First, you apparently aren't paying close enough attention to effectively participate. I hope that's what the problem is. And second, an offensive photo hasn't been uploaded. I have an idea! How about you expound on your two-sentence conclusions and risk a critique of your reasoning on the matter? It would be especially refreshing if you can demonstrate an ability to do it without substituting sarcasm for substance.

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My point is that this thread has a hidden agenda. It was a deliberate attempt to defame a member of the local geocaching community. Atrus, Paperman1 and catlover are some of the most gentle, kind and fun loving geocachers in this community. I know them personally, and I am telling you that I know the OP just as well.

I see... it was really the OP that uploaded that offensive photo? How sneaky of him!!

 

First, you apparently aren't paying close enough attention to effectively participate. I hope that's what the problem is. And second, an offensive photo hasn't been uploaded. I have an idea! How about you expound on your two-sentence conclusions and risk a critique of your reasoning on the matter? It would be especially refreshing if you can demonstrate an ability to do it without substituting sarcasm for substance.

 

Sure. No problem. It wasn't the OP that uploaded that obnoxious picture to a cache that promises a 2nd smiley for a funny photo of the cacher. Of course, this wasn't a photo of the cacher, nor does the cacher care about extra smileys... in fact, they don't even care about original smileys. They apparently saw an opportuntity, though, for what they considered a funny. Well, we're (many of us) are not laughing. Get it yet?

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I was raised with the belief that I had to tolerate other's often objectional opinions and statements so that I was free to state my own opinions and statements, even if they were objectionable to THE MAJORITY, much less any one individual.
That sounds like something a constitutional scholar would say. I
Thanks, but I think it was actually my 3rd grade teacher, Mrs Bingingham.
If you're talking about the 1st Amendment (freedom of speech) then you're wrong - it doesn't cover anything in these forums or in the cache pages. This is a private company and they can set whatever rules they want.

 

The first amendment only protects us from the gubberment coming in and telling us we can't say something.

 

And just to stay on topic, I'll say that:

1) I think the image is funny, not racist in the least.

2) I think the cache owner's description applies only to Found It logs and the image poster posted a note so it doesn't matter that it's not a picture of the cacher. However the cache owner is free to delete or keep any log he wants.

3) I think it's VERY obvious, now that more of the story has come out, that the OP of this thread is using the image to try and stir up bad feelings towards the cacher because of their past conflicts. I'm glad that nobody has forced the image to be removed since it would mean that the OP won in this silly little battle that we were all exposed to but should have never been brought here.

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You're honestly telling me that the word "honky" has the same effect and sting of the "n" word?

You tell me. Are you willing to play the victim card? If you are, and you declare that you've been the victim of racial inequity because someone calls you a "honky", should I dismiss your claims as frivolous? If not, why not? Because your skin tone is lighter than someone else who makes the same claim, but has a different word directed at them?

 

So far as I can see, based upon the words of a black man holding a Doctorate, you are the racist here.

 

You are the one making judgements, decisions and claims based solely on skin tone.

 

(I.e: This word must be bad because it's directed at people whose skin tone is darker than mine)

 

Hopefully, the day will come when you realize that we are all people, and we are all part of the human race.

 

Applying labels to your fellow humans may earn you points from other hand wringers, but it won't win you any logic points.

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The intent of the person who edited the original photo of President Obama is not the issue here. The intent of the person who uploaded the "photo" to Geocaching.com is also not the issue here; however many have made their decisions based on the content of the "photo" and/or comments made by that person. [That person may have only wanted to share with others a picture that he thought amusing, and had no idea that it might be considered by some to be controversial.]

 

The issue is whether the "photo" is objectionable and therefore violates Groundspeak's Terms of Use. Which it is -- to some -- so therefore it does. Now it is entirely possible that the section of the TOU that seems most relevant here -- 4.(a) -- needs some work, as a strict interpretation indicates that if a single person finds the "photo" objectionable a violation has occurred. So was the Groundspeak minion's decision to find the "photo" NOT objectionable based on the belief that it wasn't objectionable to anyone -- which based on many of the posts to this thread is demonstrably untrue -- or that the "photo" wasn't objectionable ENOUGH? If the latter then I recommend a re-write of that section of the TOU.

 

My motivation for pursuing this issue has been called into question, and there is no way for me to un-ring that bell. There is no doubt that over the years I have bumped heads with Atrus and Dear Dora. But doesn't the "plan" to indirectly paint Atrus as a closet racist by hoping that others would find the "photo" objectionable and reply to the thread seem a little far-fetched? I suppose I really am the master manipulator I have been branded. How else could I have forced Atrus to respond in such a way that his true feelings on the issue were relatively crystal clear?

 

waypointazoid has had much to say on this matter, and claims to know all involved. I have met him in person once or twice and talked with him for a total of about two minutes. Apparently that is enough for him to "know" me. He claims that Atrus and Dear Dora have been fast-tracked for sainthood -- I may be paraphrasing there -- and I would agree that they have been positive forces within the western NC geocaching community. But the picture waypointazoid paints is not all roses, and if I cared to violate forum etiquette and post some personal emails I have received from him then his positive statements about some western NC geocachers would be called into question.

 

BTW -- waypointazoid made reference to two "fecal" caches of mine, but has produced no evidence that they ever existed. And though he castigates me for claiming to somehow "know" Atrus' intent when uploading the "photo" waypointazoid then goes on (and on) explaining my intentions behind my actions. I am pretty sure that I had nothing to do with Atrus' decision to upload the "photo". I just pointed out the distasteful nature of the "photo".

 

It would be interesting to know if the decision that the "photo" in question was not a violation of the TOU was made by a Groundspeak minion with no input from higher ups, or if the decision was handed down from the top. (Or at least from somewhere closer to the top.)

 

I feel that this issue is slowing grinding to its inevitable end. Reading the posts has been enjoyable and/or illuminating.

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And Snoogans, Thank you sincerely, but I have perceived nothing. I've witnessed it. You see, I live in this area. You might think you know someone, but until you have spent some time with the people throughout the Eastern seaboard who have dealt with this behavior it might be you who is unaware.

 

Duely noted. However, I am a good judge of character and I make my decisions based on my own observations.

 

For example: I just moved into a new home and the FIRST neighbor to approach my wife and I started telling us all sorts of bad stuff about all the other neighbors, the homeowner's association, etc.

 

My wife turned to me and said, "Is it okay if I don't like her?" ;) I hugged her and said thank you and explained Platoon Mentality to her and she understood why she took an almost instant dislike to a lady who had been nothing but nice to us.

 

You and I won't see things the same way and here's a good example of why:

 

What's the matter with half you people?

 

It's a funny picture. Period.

 

You don't get it. It's not the least bit funny to me and I'm NO Obama fan. I certainly didn't vote for him.

 

There's nothing at all wrong with me either. How rude of you to make such an ASSumption about those that don't see it your way. :)

 

If I were you I'd be hoping Snoogans' Plan A for retirement in the beautiful Eastern Sierra pans out and that Plan B to head to Asheville to spend my Golden Years doesn't go into action. I'm more like Oz than you would be comfortable with. ;):)

Edited by Snoogans
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And Snoogans, Thank you sincerely, but I have perceived nothing. I've witnessed it. You see, I live in this area. You might think you know someone, but until you have spent some time with the people throughout the Eastern seaboard who have dealt with this behavior it might be you who is unaware.

 

Duely noted. However, I am a good judge of character and I make my decisions based on my own observations.

 

For example: I just moved into a new home and the FIRST neighbor to approach my wife and I started telling us all sorts of bad stuff about all the other neighbors, the homeowner's association, etc.

 

My wife turned to me and said, "Is it okay if I don't like her?" ;) I hugged her and said thank you and explained Platoon Mentality to her and she understood why she took an almost instant dislike to a lady who had been nothing but nice to us.

 

You and I won't see things the same way and here's a good example of why:

 

What's the matter with half you people?

 

It's a funny picture. Period.

 

You don't get it. It's not the least bit funny to me and I'm NO Obama fan. I certainly didn't vote for him.

 

There's nothing at all wrong with me either. How rude of you to make such an ASSumption about those that don't see it your way. :)

 

If I were you I'd be hoping Snoogans' Plan A for retirement in the beautiful Eastern Sierra pans out and that Plan B to head to Asheville to spend my Golden Years doesn't go into action. I'm more like Oz than you would be comfortable with. ;):)

 

First, let me make an apology:

 

I was misinformed, and didn't check my facts. It was not Ozguff who posted Mr. Poopie, the cache that I mistakenly assigned to him that had the two cartoon characters made of feces. Earlier in the thread, I mistakenly used this as an example of irony in relation to Ozguff's alleged indignation of the Obama caricature. He has one known as POOP and thus the confusion. Grame, you have my most humble apology for the mistake. I regret the error. However, it doesn't change a thing about the malevolence with this thread.

 

Second, Snoogans, I met you at GeoWoodstock. You seemed to be a jovial and unassuming fellow. I don't have a beef with you, and you know it. You also know that "what's the matter with you people" is a rhetorical statement without the kind of malice you are assigning to it. Also if it makes you feel good to call someone an a**, be courageous and candid, and just say it outright. It's alright, I can take it. I've been called worse by more important people.

 

Shame on you for intentionally creating hostility where there was none.

 

On another reply, there have been several occasions where I've met Ozguff. He has called me many times for phone-a-friends. But there has been an abundance of email between us. Time and again, when his conduct was... let's say... out of the normal bounds of local decorum... I appealed to his better nature. I urged him to take a less harsh approach towards his fellow cachers... especially new ones. I tried to inspire him by letting him know that he could be the single most greatest asset in the Southeast; An ambassodor for geocaching... a legend versus an anti-hero, if you will.. if he would just take a different attitude towards others. Time and again, he blew me off in the most uncaring style. He doesn't respond to friendly advice, and he doesn't respond to nasty criticism... and it got nasty. All it would take for him to be a local hero would be a positive, honest approach but he relentlessly chooses negativity and dishonesty.

 

The routine is: offend someone with uncommon behavior; complain to Groundspeak and get rebuffed; air it out in the forums using a diversionary method; create solid disharmony with the target and all those who appeal to his better nature; monitor the target for the least weakness to begin it all over again. He is the most vindictive cacher I know, and if you defy him, you get smeared in the forums.

 

Don't take my word for it, ask five people at random in this region, and at least one of them will tell you the same... the majority of the rest won't know him but by his reputation for this conduct. Or simply research the forums, and see how much controversy he has brought to it in the past. The ultimate negativity queen.

 

I don't think that's what you had in mind when you say you are like him Snoogans, but I understand your personal value; until you see it, it doesn't exist, and mentioning it offends you. No one has suggested that you can't identify with anyone you wish, using whatever philosophical model you please. And let me be the first to tentatively welcome you to the area. Even though you have chosen to take an unwarranted adversarial relation to me, I'm confident that when you get here and and get that first hand experience you require before you judge everyone else but me, that you and I will become better friends. I don't understand you, but I'm sure that since I've heard and read nothing but good things about you that I would enjoy your presence here.

 

Atrus is a good man. He is not a racist. The intention of this thread was to imply that he is, and drag him through the mud with innuendo and mob mentality. Those are the facts, and if you can't see that then it isn't a reason to start a beef with me.

 

Saying you are a good man is pointless. Having others testify that you are is the only hope a good person has in defending against a slick sneaky race-card smear campaign. Litigation has been initiatied on lessor evidence than you can collect just in this forum, let alone if you add the history between the two people at odds.

 

This thread is just wrong, because it's true motivation is dishonest and shameful. The fact is, that photo is not outside the Terms of Use and that was established before this thread was launched. But if the truth about the real purpose of this thread were revealed, it would fall outside those Terms with flying colors. I posted here to shed some light on that dishonesty. It's up to the community to decide what is the truth and what kind of behavior they will or will not be an accessory or co-dependent to... and decide if this stuff is what geocaching should be about.

 

I'll leave the last word to others.

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GOOD GRAVY! Why has this thread gone as far as it has?! Oh wait, I know...free speech and all that jazz.

 

First of all, those of us that cache in Western North Carolina know of the bad blood, feelings, what-have-you, between Ozguff and Atrus. This is another ridiculous attempt to ruffle feathers.

 

Of course Ozguff got some negatives toward Atrus because...ssshhh....the man in the picture is of...ssshhh...color and GASP, he is the president too. Open any paper, magazine or watch any late night comedy show and I'm sure you will see some of the same "comedic expression" concerning the very same man. So people get over it! It's comedy. Objectionable is why it was brought up in the first place. There have been worse things I've come across caching but I certainly wouldn't call someone on it. I think the option to post a pic was a fun way to mix it up and makes reading the logs alot more fun since most have become quite lazy. TFTC!

 

Ozguff knows how I feel about him and Atrus. I consider both to be friends. Ozguff has been kind enough to maintain caches for me and has shown me friendship during a hard personal time. Atrus and his wife have been so helpful during my divorce that I will feel indebted to them forever. I just wish the nit-picking would stop.

 

I was told about this thread by another caching friend and wanted to voice an opinion from someone that knows both parties. I see nothing good about a thread like this and would request it be closed. All that can be said or helpful has been said. Anything else is just for spite and hurtfulness. (and some of you are concerned about a picture of a someone that doesn't even know you personally) If it wasn't a post you would make, how bad is it REALLY? Ya know, in the GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS! If you are worried about racism or objectiveness try remembering this is a game! If your not having fun then find another playground. If you wanna call someone out, look at your own posts to people you don't even know. Some of you are just mean to be mean. You might as well be a racist of Italians. BTW, Atrus is 100% Italian.

 

Laineybug

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GOOD GRAVY! Why has this thread gone as far as it has?! Oh wait, I know...free speech and all that jazz.

 

First of all, those of us that cache in Western North Carolina know of the bad blood, feelings, what-have-you, between Ozguff and Atrus. This is another ridiculous attempt to ruffle feathers.

 

Of course Ozguff got some negatives toward Atrus because...ssshhh....the man in the picture is of...ssshhh...color and GASP, he is the president too. Open any paper, magazine or watch any late night comedy show and I'm sure you will see some of the same "comedic expression" concerning the very same man. So people get over it! It's comedy. Objectionable is why it was brought up in the first place. There have been worse things I've come across caching but I certainly wouldn't call someone on it. I think the option to post a pic was a fun way to mix it up and makes reading the logs alot more fun since most have become quite lazy. TFTC!

 

Ozguff knows how I feel about him and Atrus. I consider both to be friends. Ozguff has been kind enough to maintain caches for me and has shown me friendship during a hard personal time. Atrus and his wife have been so helpful during my divorce that I will feel indebted to them forever. I just wish the nit-picking would stop.

 

I was told about this thread by another caching friend and wanted to voice an opinion from someone that knows both parties. I see nothing good about a thread like this and would request it be closed. All that can be said or helpful has been said. Anything else is just for spite and hurtfulness. (and some of you are concerned about a picture of a someone that doesn't even know you personally) If it wasn't a post you would make, how bad is it REALLY? Ya know, in the GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS! If you are worried about racism or objectiveness try remembering this is a game! If your not having fun then find another playground. If you wanna call someone out, look at your own posts to people you don't even know. Some of you are just mean to be mean. You might as well be a racist of Italians. BTW, Atrus is 100% Italian.

 

Laineybug

AMEN!

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GOOD GRAVY! Why has this thread gone as far as it has?! Oh wait, I know...free speech and all that jazz.

First of all, those of us that cache in Western North Carolina know of the bad blood, feelings, what-have-you, between Ozguff and Atrus. This is another ridiculous attempt to ruffle feathers.

Of course Ozguff got some negatives toward Atrus because...ssshhh....the man in the picture is of...ssshhh...color and GASP, he is the president too. Open any paper, magazine or watch any late night comedy show and I'm sure you will see some of the same "comedic expression" concerning the very same man. So people get over it! It's comedy. Objectionable is why it was brought up in the first place. There have been worse things I've come across caching but I certainly wouldn't call someone on it. I think the option to post a pic was a fun way to mix it up and makes reading the logs alot more fun since most have become quite lazy. TFTC!

Ozguff knows how I feel about him and Atrus. I consider both to be friends. Ozguff has been kind enough to maintain caches for me and has shown me friendship during a hard personal time. Atrus and his wife have been so helpful during my divorce that I will feel indebted to them forever. I just wish the nit-picking would stop.

I was told about this thread by another caching friend and wanted to voice an opinion from someone that knows both parties. I see nothing good about a thread like this and would request it be closed. All that can be said or helpful has been said. Anything else is just for spite and hurtfulness. (and some of you are concerned about a picture of a someone that doesn't even know you personally) If it wasn't a post you would make, how bad is it REALLY? Ya know, in the GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS! If you are worried about racism or objectiveness try remembering this is a game! If your not having fun then find another playground. If you wanna call someone out, look at your own posts to people you don't even know. Some of you are just mean to be mean. You might as well be a racist of Italians. BTW, Atrus is 100% Italian.

Laineybug

 

That was a very respectful and thoughtful post, Laineybug. But I must take exception with your statement that this is just a game, all in fun, "comedic expression" argument. That may be acceptable humor in some parts of the country, but I sure thought that we had gone beyond that by 2009 in most places. Yes, satire and charicatures of the President and other public figures are 100% fair game. But that picture was not political humor. It was racist humor... or at least that is the way that many of us have percieved it.

 

 

The cache offered (for better, or worse) and extra smiley for posting a picture of one's self. Atrus did not post a picture of himself, and he doesn't even "collect" smileys from what others have said, so why post this?

 

 

To get back to the OP... yes, I do believe the picture violate Groundspeak's rules. It also violates the cache owner's rules. On both counts, I believe that it should be deleted. On the grounds of freedom of speech, however, I believe that it should stand as a testament to bad taste, at the very least.

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All I can say to the above is that the "photo", in my opinion, is objectionable. If I remember all the way back to the start of the thread I am pretty sure that that was the original question. Just because Groundspeak decides that it isn't objectionable in the Groundspeak world doesn't mean it isn't objectionable in the real world.

 

And in the hypothetical world where I hypothetically planned all along to hypothetically and indirectly smear Atrus -- the photo that he uploaded is still very un-hypothetically objectionable. (Apropos of nothing, I was once told that repetition is the refuge of the uninspired.)

 

Though some will find this hard to believe, this wasn't about bad blood. Anything said to the contrary has been an attempt to divert and obfuscate. Had I wanted this to be about bad blood I could have relayed any number of instances related specifically to geocaching where Atrus et al treated me like feces.

 

I await further ruminations about my intentions by those who enjoy flinging mud. And heck, I'm an easy target.

 

P.S. LB: Great to see you on the forums!

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...But I must take exception with your statement that this is just a game, all in fun, "comedic expression" argument. That may be acceptable humor in some parts of the country, but I sure thought that we had gone beyond that by 2009 in most places.

 

Yes, satire and charicatures of the President and other public figures are 100% fair game. But that picture was not political humor. It was racist humor... or at least that is the way that many of us have percieved it.

 

Many of us indeed over these six forum pages. Shouldn't that be enough to suggest there is a problem with this photo? Maybe folks who think it isn't racist should think about why so many folks here believe it is. Why would it get this adverse reaction? And... please hold your responses if all you have to add is the bleeding heart business. That is an outdated cop-out. It is time to think about your answers and your beliefs.

 

If you are still not convinced then download the photo, make a poster out of it and walk down the Main Street of your nearest large city holding it high. I think you would then get another set of opinions that might differ from yours. Geocaching pages are a public forum as Main Street is a public forum. If it isn't going to work on Main Street then don't post it here.

 

OP asked if it was appropriate for gc.com pages. Do we really need to ask such a question? Why isn't it obvious that this photo is not appropriate here?

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Maybe folks who think it isn't racist should think about why so many folks here believe it is. Why would it get this adverse reaction?

Because most of them support his views. Its not racism, its who is a Democrat or a Republican Democrats worship him, Republicans hate him.

Most likely anyone who finds it racist is a Dem.

Those who find it funny are most likely moderates or Rep.

I know people who have been called a racist by their peers just because they voted for McCain.

 

John-McCain-frog-face--48506.jpg

Now tell me. Is this "racist" because the Obama picture obviously is.

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Because most of them support his views. Its not racism, its who is a Democrat or a Republican Democrats worship him, Republicans hate him.

 

Most likely anyone who finds it racist is a Dem.

Those who find it funny are most likely moderates or Rep.

I know people who have been called a racist by their peers just because they voted for McCain.

 

This is the kind of response I was referring to. This just doesn't cut it. There is more to it then huddling in opposing camps in the corners and throwing stones at each other.

 

We, as fellow humans, have to think our way out of this condition. (The condition that allows someone to think that photo was appropriate for a geocaching page as well as the bigger picture of racism in the world).

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Maybe folks who think it isn't racist should think about why so many folks here believe it is. Why would it get this adverse reaction?

Because most of them support his views. Its not racism, its who is a Democrat or a Republican Democrats worship him, Republicans hate him.

Most likely anyone who finds it racist is a Dem.

Those who find it funny are most likely moderates or Rep.

I know people who have been called a racist by their peers just because they voted for McCain.

 

John-McCain-frog-face--48506.jpg

Now tell me. Is this "racist" because the Obama picture obviously is.

 

What the heck are you talking about?!? This has nothing to do with policital parties, and yes, given that McCain's face underwent reconstructive surgery for his face, I also consider your picture to get distasteful.

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We, as fellow humans, have to think our way out of this condition.

I would argue that, since no logic has been applied to reach this condition, it is unlikely that logic will be applied to extract ourselves from this condition. The hand wringers apply nothing but emotion to the equation, which is always a losing strategy. So long as we refer to President Obama as "Black", or "African American" or "Person of color", or any of the other mindless race labels applied by those folks who can't see that he's a member of the human race, we will feel that he, (and others that we stuff into these little groups), need protecting from words and pictures.

 

We will know, once and for all, that equality is real when a knuckle dragger can stand on the steps of the White House, screaming profane, racially motivated vitriol, and get no reaction from anybody, regardless of their skin tone.

 

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal."

Peter Brimelow 1993

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John-McCain-frog-face--48506.jpg

Now tell me. Is this "racist" because the Obama picture obviously is.

 

Yeah, because there is a long standing racial commentary regarding the appearance of reptilian blobs on the faces of white people. Why I seem to recall being yelled at on the way to school as a young lad by all the non-white kids "reptilian blob face!" Often there were depictions of other whites spray-painted on the bathroom wall of our reptilian-blob features, distorted into caricatures of hate...

 

What Bizzaro World are some of you living in?

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Do you people spend as much time geocaching as you do in the geocaching forums????????

 

Hello Pot. My name is kettle. :lol:

 

- tasteless? probably.

 

Agreed.

 

- objectionable? to some.

 

Agreed.

 

- racist? if you're not conservative.

 

I'm gonna hafta stick with racism lies in intent...... (Disclaimer: I make no assumptions on the intent in THIS case.)

 

- offensive? if you're easily offended.

 

I'm gonna have to agree.

 

- delete it? nope,

 

I personally think yes, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it remaining. :o

 

get over it you thin skinned fools.

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I foresee, at the very least, a warning level increase in your future if not a short term banishment. :sad:

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In my previous posts, I chose not to bring up the animosity between myself and the OP, because I did not want to appear as a crybaby. However, since Waypointazoid and a few others have turned the spotlight of truth on exactly what I have perceived to be the OP’s true motivation for starting this thread, I feel it appropriate to validate those points.

 

It is true. There has been a great deal of animosity between the OP and myself over the last several years. This animosity is also, no secret among the local geocachers in the Asheville and surrounding areas. I try at every opportunity to AVOID the OP, AND all of his caches. But as you can see, he won’t LET me ignore him. Remember, it was not I, who started this thread! Years ago, I stopped logging caches as finds and began logging them as notes. I further try to ignore him by not even posting notes on his cache pages. The only time I ever find his caches is when I am with others who want to find them. The truth is, I wouldn't cross the street to see him if he were vomiting $100 bills! I would just as soon completely ignore him and enjoy the sport without him.

 

Waypointazoid and a few others have deduced and suggested that this thread was not started because the OP was “offended” by a picture I posted to a cache page. I believe that they are 100% correct and let me explain why by examining a few facts directly from this thread. The OP openly admits that since the picture was posted by me, it “possibly, may have colored his reaction to it.” Given the amount of animus between us in the past, how could I (and any other local who knows all of us) possibly come to any other opinion than that the only reason this thread was started was because the OP perceived that picture as a “golden” opportunity to cast me in a bad light on the international forums. He sarcasticaly submits that his objective "to indirectly paint Atrus as a closet racist by hoping that others would find the "photo" objectionable and reply to the thread" as ludicrous, but that's precisely how he camouflages it. I didn't say it folks, he did. Consider this, if he was so offended by the photo, why did he post a direct link to it in the forums so everyone else could see it, too? Does that not perpetuate exactly what he supposedly found to be so “offensive?” He WANTED as many people to see that picture as possible, hoping that as many as possible would find it "offensive" too, and fall in line behind him, to cry, “Racist!!!” He also said, "This particular "photo" may be a relatively tame example of racial insensitivity, but it wouldn't take much more to really make it incredibly offensive." Why would he even mention how little more it would take to make it incredably offensive if he were not deliberately planting the seeds of "racism" in your mind? He is counting on those seeds to grow and mature in the fertile ground of your own opinion, and blossom into full blown, "Racist!" No, the objective was not for him to convince you that I am a racist. After all, he never used that term himself. He even went so far as to admit that I am NOT a racist, only that, in his opinion, I might be a little “racially insensitive.” He further stated his doubt that I had any racial intent in uploading the picture, and that he "did not find the photo itself to be racist, per se." However, by providing a direct link which he knew everyone would follow, he also calculated that a fair number most likely WOULD be offended. Throw in his comment about how little more it would take to make it incredably offensive, and... As it was brought out earlier, just LOOK at how many of you he got to do it for him! Meanwhile, he sits back and gloats. This is how he operates.

 

Not even Groundspeak is safe when their rulings differ from his opinions. "Groundspeak HAS spoken, but that doesn't mean that their decision is the correct one." And, "It would be interesting to know if the decision that the "photo" in question was not a violation of the TOU was made by a Groundspeak minion with no input from higher ups, or if the decision was handed down from the top. (Or at least from somewhere closer to the top.)" Does this not indicate that the OP regards the GS staff as just a bunch of flunkies? He always seems to know exactly what is best, exactly what is correct, exactly what is proper, and exactly what everyone ELSE should do, ad nauseum. And if you disagree with him, he smears you. As suggested by others, search these forums for his past posts and threads he has started, and form your own conclusions.

 

This antagonism been the OP and myself been going on for years, and this is just the latest, albeit the most serious and potentially damaging trick he has ever tried to pull. In the past, whenever we have had our "disagreements," I have chastised his behavior and his actions, but I have NEVER attacked his personal character. He has now stooped to a new low. Will this be the end of it? Unfortunately, I doubt it. It seems like the more I try to ignore him, the more he won’t LEAVE ME ALONE!

 

Concerning the PICTURE, there has been much lively discussion from both sides in this thread. I thank everyone who supported my point of view concerning the alleged “offensiveness” of the picture. I would also like to thank everyone else who supported the opposing opinion for your participation as well. It takes two differing opinions to have a lively debate. I believe in, “live and let live.” As long as you are not hurting me or my family, you are free to think and do whatever you feel is best for you.

 

This thread has been dragging on for 6 pages and several days now, and I for one have grown weary of it. We have ALL wasted far too much time here, when we could have been out doing someting important in the world. I seriously doubt that anyone is going to change any one else's mind. All that can be said has been said, so why do we continue beating a dead horse? Perhaps it has run its course and it is time to move on. For those of you who wish to call me "Racist," You know nothing about me, however, it is your right to have that opinion of me. You calling me a racist does not MAKE me one. To those of you who, after reading this, my last post in this thread, wish to add "crybaby" to the list of labels to which I will be known to you, that too, is also your right. So be it. I wish nothing more than to go on about my business, happily ignoring the OP and all of his caches...if he will only let me...

 

 

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I have followed this Topic with interest.

 

I have deliberately avoided making the call of whether I consider the caricature to be offensive because I am thousands of miles away, in a different country, and my opinions have already been articulated by other contributors.

 

I feel that the original topic has been well covered by the many, many posts so far and it is now very apparent that this thread is turning towards the personal issues between two cachers.

 

This being the case I respectfully suggest that it should be closed.

 

If folks feel the need to say yet more about what may, or may not, be "objectionable" in a cache log perhaps a new, but more general, topic could be opened to discuss the broader issues, rather than focusing on this one particular cache?

 

MrsB

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For those of you who wish to call me "Racist," You know nothing about me, however, it is your right to have that opinion of me. You calling me a racist does not MAKE me one.

 

Atrus,

 

Let me go on record that I don't think you're racist, but by posting that pic on a recreational website and thinking that it could be immune from comment, I DO think you are racially insensitive.

 

Does this not indicate that the OP regards the GS staff as just a bunch of flunkies? .

 

Ummm LACKEYS.... Jeremy calls 'em "lackeys."

 

But I hafta admit some of 'em act like flunkies. :lol::lol:

 

 

Personally I think bad feelings out in the open in a local geocontinuum never leads to anything other than creating factions of support on either side that perpetuate more of the same. I tend to shrink away from those situations in my own geocommunity and thankfully the majority here do the same.

 

However, it serves a purpose to examine the limits of good taste when you shine a light on questionable activities such a the photo you posted and I personally LIKE to stretch the limits of good taste.... But I would NEVER have posted that image.

 

I wouldn't cross the street to see him if he were vomiting $100 bills!

 

Note to self: Shove a finger down Oz's throat next time I see him. :lol::o:sad::lol:

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Do you people spend as much time geocaching as you do in the geocaching forums????????

 

Hello Pot. My name is kettle. :lol:

 

- tasteless? probably.

 

Agreed.

 

- objectionable? to some.

 

Agreed.

 

- racist? if you're not conservative.

 

I'm gonna hafta stick with racism lies in intent...... (Disclaimer: I make no assumptions on the intent in THIS case.)

 

- offensive? if you're easily offended.

 

I'm gonna have to agree.

 

- delete it? nope,

 

I personally think yes, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it remaining. :o

 

get over it you thin skinned fools.

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I foresee, at the very least, a warning level increase in your future if not a short term banishment. :sad:

 

If I am a pot, I certainly don't reside in the same pantry as you. You have 10 times the posts I do and a simple search will net results showing you in much more embroiled and hot discussions than myself.

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If I am a pot, I certainly don't reside in the same pantry as you. You have 10 times the posts I do

 

Not to split hairs but it's only 9.9 sumthin' times more posts than you. :lol:

 

Plausable denial of being a pot is the first sign that you ARE a pot. If you weren't a pot I wouldn't have instantly recognized your username along with a general feeling for the tone of the posts I've read from you. :sad: I'm just sayin'. :o

 

Now... I'm going to give myself a demerit for posting 100% off topic. My apologies to the OP and everyone else who witnessed this post. I will endeavor to be more ON topic in future postings to this thread if I find a reason to post further.

Edited by Snoogans
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Although it does portray a stereotype, it isn't any worse than all the images that compared Bush with a Chimpanzee. It would have been far more entertaining if they used the Obama Joker image instead.

 

K-Fox - agreed. I love when it's Bush or anyone else it's ok, in fact, we should laugh and get the joke, but when it's the great Obama, it's offensive......

 

 

HOW is this racist? I think the term racist needs to be explained here, because that picture of Obama is not racist.

 

Posting a picture of Barack w/ blown out of proportion features does not make the picture racist.

 

I thought Bush like a monkey was funny. I think Obama like a monkey was funny. This picture, although I wouldn't have posted it, doesn't mean it's racist.....

 

BTW - race isn't tied to everything on the entire planet... and now, thanks to this thread, now Geocaching has turned political...... Thanks.....

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My call: Meh. People choose to be offended at way too much.

 

On the other hand, Groundspeak might not want to be associated with an image like that. There is a minor public relations issue to consider. What if this had made the news? "Geocaching Full of Racists!" - it wouldn't be until you read to the third paragraph that it was just a silly image submitted by 1 person and 99% of the people who read the headline will never make it that far.

 

 

Ding-ding-ding. We have a winner: people CHOOSE to be offended too much.

 

Sure it's an image thing for Geocaching.com, but at the same time, it wasn't racist or offensive..... If it were my face up there, people would laugh, it's just because it's the Presidents face that we're even talking about this.....

 

I will say that if the cache called for a caricature of the person who found the cache, then this person shouldn't get credit for the find, UNLESS it truly IS Barack H. Obama who found the cache... Then, I say, let him have the find, and I hop he doesn't find the picture of himself racist......

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If your read the TOS, this definitely is in violation, and that's basically what this argument comes down to.

 

I find your avatar racist and objectionable. It makes fun of white people with pudgy cheeks. I know people who have eating disorders and you're making fun of them. Shameful.

 

I'm going to start a thread to get RaeRae7133 removed from the message board.

 

 

Seriously people... Give me a fraggin' break...... You can't please everybody...... Someone will find something offensive in everyday life....... Deal with it.

 

Go find some geocaches w/ your friends and family. Joke around. Take goofy pictures. Post them on the internet. Have fun.

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The very idea that certain caricatures of a public figure should be considered off limits because of his race is racism.

 

the way in which the image was enhanced was the racist part.

It's not racist simply because he is black.

 

when you take a person (or in this case president) who has been hounded repeatedly because of his race, then features are exagerated which are indicative of his race, then it is in bad taste.

 

Why am I having to explain racism?

 

Are you serious?..... Do you know what a caricature is?........ Here. I can't believe I have to explain a caricature to you.....

 

Caricature: a representation of a person that is exaggerated for comic effect ;

A caricature can refer to a portrait that exaggerates or distorts the essence of a person or thing to create an easily identifiable visual likeness ; A representation in which the subject's distinctive features are exaggerated.....

 

So, when you read this, what was posted is a caricature. The definition of a caricature itself means it's poking fun at the features of a person!!!!!

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BTW - race isn't tied to everything on the entire planet... and now, thanks to this thread, now Geocaching has turned political......For ME.... Thanks.....

 

There. I fixed your post. :o

 

I got news for ya. Geocaching was already political when I joined in 2003 so you can save the blame on this thread. :lol:

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BTW - race isn't tied to everything on the entire planet... and now, thanks to this thread, now Geocaching has turned political......For ME.... Thanks.....

 

There. I fixed your post. :o

 

I got news for ya. Geocaching was already political when I joined in 2003 so you can save the blame on this thread. :lol:

 

Yes Snoogans. For me.

 

I'm going to repeat what I've said before on another heated thread. I'm just glad I was introduced to Geocaching and got really into it before I found these forums - otherwise I would have given up by now.

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Seriously people... Give me a fraggin' break...... You can't please everybody...... Someone will find something offensive in everyday life....... Deal with it.

 

 

i find this is most often the response given by people granting themselves license to say things that they know are going to be offensive.

 

a word about the chimp thing: while some caricatures of people may be made to look chimpish on account of an exaggeration of that person's features, care ought to be exercised in some cases because racist movements of every stripe have been comparing their "inferiors" to chimps for a long, long time. it's kind of a code indicating that the person making the comparison does not consider the inferior race to be fully human and for that reason one ought to be careful.

 

whites in the US are not the only people to have portrayed other races as being chimp or ape-like.

 

there isn't a history of rich white people being portrayed as subhuman and ape-like. if you want to caricature bush or homer simpson or me as ape-like, that's not going to tap any long-existing racist themes.

 

there is actually a history of typing poor immigrant white people in the US as apes, particularly the irish and italians.

 

segments of japanese culture will caricature races they feel to be inferior as apes, as well.

 

but the whole apes-as-african-wildlife thing is what i think makes it so easy to make little digs at black people.

 

racism can be very subtle; feeding little commentaries about people not as good as us into the mainstream.

i really think that instead of telling people to get a sense of humor it's probably best to tidy up our language and our vocabulary of images.

 

if we mean no harm, we should not be using language and images that have traditionally been used to cause harm.

 

you will notice that at no time have i couched my thoughts in terms of not permitting people to behave this way; i consistently place the responsibility for decent behavior on people themselves. people not wishing to appear racist should not say racist things.

 

people not wishing to appear racist and dishonest should not say racist things and then pretend they're not racist.

 

people wishing to appear racist should by all means come right out and say so.

 

people wishing to call them out on this behavior should feel equally free to call it what it is.

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I think the photo is insensitive and wouldn't have posted it (regardless of the cache rules). Political caricatures that I see are usually exaggerations of existing features, not exaggerations of racial stereotypes so the lips is mostly what makes it insensitive to me because I don't see Obama's lips as larger than "normal". Other than that, I think it's a relatively accurate caricature.

 

I think of myself as an Independent with Republican and Democratic leanings - you figure it out. I don't at all subscribe to the argument that this is Democrat vs. Republican.

 

I know Oz a little and think he likes to stir the pot and push buttons, I've seen it too much to think otherwise. I think that at least played a part in this. If it truly has nothing to to with Atrus, why not post the pic without reference to the cache or log? That was a rhetorical question by the way. I'm sure one of the 'diggers' here would have eventually found the actual log, but the conversation would have been all about the photo and not about the poster, at least for awhile. But I repeat, I do feel that it falls on the insensitive side of the fence. And Oz is very, very good at this type of debate.

 

I know Atrus but not nearly as well as Oz. I don't believe he is a racist, but IMO he did post an insensitive photo. Even though I don't believe he is racist or meant any insensitivity, I wish he would have just deleted the photo and said "sorry, no harm intended and thanks for letting me know some of you were offended, that's the last thing I wanted to do.".

 

I've read this entire thread and still can't believe it. :lol:

 

For Pete's sake, would the OP just request it's closure and let it drift off the front page...until the next controversy?

Edited by nittany dave
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I think the term racist needs to be explained here, because that picture of Obama is not racist.

 

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal."

Peter Brimelow 1993

 

One of the best definitions of "racism" I've heard came from actor/comedian Bill Cosby: "Any decision you make, any action you take, be it a positive or a negative, if your decision is influenced by race, you've just committed racism. If you decide to deny a person a job because of his skin tone, that's racist. If you decide to give a person a college scholarship because of his skin tone, that's equally racist".

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Seriously people... Give me a fraggin' break...... You can't please everybody...... Someone will find something offensive in everyday life....... Deal with it.

 

 

i find this is most often the response given by people granting themselves license to say things that they know are going to be offensive.

 

a word about the chimp thing: while some caricatures of people may be made to look chimpish on account of an exaggeration of that person's features, care ought to be exercised in some cases because racist movements of every stripe have been comparing their "inferiors" to chimps for a long, long time. it's kind of a code indicating that the person making the comparison does not consider the inferior race to be fully human and for that reason one ought to be careful.

 

whites in the US are not the only people to have portrayed other races as being chimp or ape-like.

 

there isn't a history of rich white people being portrayed as subhuman and ape-like. if you want to caricature bush or homer simpson or me as ape-like, that's not going to tap any long-existing racist themes.

 

there is actually a history of typing poor immigrant white people in the US as apes, particularly the irish and italians.

 

segments of japanese culture will caricature races they feel to be inferior as apes, as well.

 

but the whole apes-as-african-wildlife thing is what i think makes it so easy to make little digs at black people.

 

racism can be very subtle; feeding little commentaries about people not as good as us into the mainstream.

i really think that instead of telling people to get a sense of humor it's probably best to tidy up our language and our vocabulary of images.

 

if we mean no harm, we should not be using language and images that have traditionally been used to cause harm.

 

you will notice that at no time have i couched my thoughts in terms of not permitting people to behave this way; i consistently place the responsibility for decent behavior on people themselves. people not wishing to appear racist should not say racist things.

 

people not wishing to appear racist and dishonest should not say racist things and then pretend they're not racist.

 

people wishing to appear racist should by all means come right out and say so.

 

people wishing to call them out on this behavior should feel equally free to call it what it is.

I've never read anything in my life... seriously... that so skillfully expresses white-guilt Political Correctness.

 

This kind of reverse discrimination racism makes me want to vomit.

 

Racism isn't a bomb made with Nitro Glycerin that will blow up if you blow your breath on it. People like this, that think that we should walk around with a microscope and a manual thick as a bible full of taboos, and listing every single item in it that could possibly, maybe, technically, legally, historically, comicly, religiously, and even remotely, possibly, or unconciously HINT that it might nudge someones delicate sensibilities...

 

with a scorepad to keep records on people so you can accurately label all the racists...

 

are not interested in eliminating racism... they are obsessed with it and want to embrace it like a long lost lover.

 

I used to teach race relations classes in the Army as an NCO. Right along and beside my fellow NCO's that were Black and Hispanic. The rule was that everyone in the class could talk openly and honestly about their fears, phobias, stereotypes, beliefs etc. The idea was for the soldiers to practically run the sessions. I believe that many of those young men for the first time in their lives walked away from those classes with a better understanding of life in general. I learned first hand, that over-sensitivity to race can be just as destructive as insensitivity. If you live your life with a radar looking for something to get racially offended about you are going to find it in every facet of life.

 

You may think that it is OK to just arbitrarily decide that someone is a racist and call them that, but using the criteria you expressed you're going to be wrong more times than you are right. And "racist" is a serious thing to call someone. That particular brand of hypersensitive-fanatic racism is likely to get you about a pound of how-do-you-like-me-now right in your grill, and you'd have all five knuckles coming to you.

 

As long as people of any race walk around with a set of silly ideas like you have, then we can forget about being a discrimination-free society. It has got to suck walking through life with your sphincter that tight.

 

A Racial Crime Scene Forensic Investigator and Profiler... now I've seen everything.

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Seriously people... Give me a fraggin' break...... You can't please everybody...... Someone will find something offensive in everyday life....... Deal with it.

 

 

i find this is most often the response given by people granting themselves license to say things that they know are going to be offensive.

 

a word about the chimp thing: while some caricatures of people may be made to look chimpish on account of an exaggeration of that person's features, care ought to be exercised in some cases because racist movements of every stripe have been comparing their "inferiors" to chimps for a long, long time. it's kind of a code indicating that the person making the comparison does not consider the inferior race to be fully human and for that reason one ought to be careful.

 

whites in the US are not the only people to have portrayed other races as being chimp or ape-like.

 

there isn't a history of rich white people being portrayed as subhuman and ape-like. if you want to caricature bush or homer simpson or me as ape-like, that's not going to tap any long-existing racist themes.

 

there is actually a history of typing poor immigrant white people in the US as apes, particularly the irish and italians.

 

segments of japanese culture will caricature races they feel to be inferior as apes, as well.

 

but the whole apes-as-african-wildlife thing is what i think makes it so easy to make little digs at black people.

 

racism can be very subtle; feeding little commentaries about people not as good as us into the mainstream.

i really think that instead of telling people to get a sense of humor it's probably best to tidy up our language and our vocabulary of images.

 

if we mean no harm, we should not be using language and images that have traditionally been used to cause harm.

 

you will notice that at no time have i couched my thoughts in terms of not permitting people to behave this way; i consistently place the responsibility for decent behavior on people themselves. people not wishing to appear racist should not say racist things.

 

people not wishing to appear racist and dishonest should not say racist things and then pretend they're not racist.

 

people wishing to appear racist should by all means come right out and say so.

 

people wishing to call them out on this behavior should feel equally free to call it what it is.

 

Wow......

 

Then be offended.

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Why is it so WRONG to be offensive? I am TOTALLY OFFENDED that we have such an inept person in the White House. BUT, me being OFFENDED is MY PROBLEM, and no one elses. If I get offended, IT IS MY PROBLEM, not the person who allegedly offended me.

 

So called "Political Correctness" is nothing more than a huge, stinky pile of Bovine Excretement.

 

For every one of you who is offended at that cartoon, you really need to get a life, get something exciting going and stop worrying about some picture on the internet.

 

The strongest AGENDA here is the original poster. He or She got a really long thread going. so I guess they got their jolly for the day. How sad.

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