Religious Propaganda

[Clan Riffster]

i feel there shouldnt be religious items

or

i would be extatic finding dream catchers and tibetan prayer flags

Either one would work as a statement of opinion. Put them together, and you sound hypocritical.

[+Too Tall John]

no, proselytizing materials in caches are not appropriate, and yet they get left anyway by spiritual busybodies who consider themselves in a position to know what's best for you and think they're doing you a big favor.

 

if they bother you enough, you can trade them out and destroy them.

 

they make reasonably acceptable emergency toilet paper, and you might mention that in your log.

You can always spot the bitter, and angry athiests in any group.

Labeling flask an atheist? From what I've read from flask, she's got a better grip on theology than many seminarians I know, so I find your post just plain fall-down-funny.

[+Too Tall John]

Oh, and what would you think about a "Get Out of Hell Free" card?

And just so you know, the creator of the cards made the 1st ones in response to someone telling him he was going to hell. He figured if they could tell him he was going to hell, he could tell others they weren't.

[+Team Cotati]

Oh, and what would you think about a "Get Out of Hell Free" card?

And just so you know, the creator of the cards made the 1st ones in response to someone telling him he was going to hell. He figured if they could tell him he was going to hell, he could tell others they weren't.

 

Well I for one think that those are real real cute. Save one fer me, will you?

[+cpine]

Time to call a whaaaambulance!

 

I recently found a couple polictical items in some caches. A rock the vote pin and a Kerry Pin. While rock the vote was supposedly a non partisan proposal ran by liberals and I would not vote for Kerry I traded these items out. They had some interest to me to just have them. Kindof like an antique buggy whip.

Sorry Jesus offends so many folks out there. (It is especially in vogue to not like Christianity right now) No I do not place tracks in caches. I have found a lot of things I don't agree with but like an adult I move on and it doesn't cross my mind again. (Until someone brings it up in a post)

 

Chris

Edited November 2, 2009 by cpine

[+Chrysalides]

It might be your 'right' as a geocacher.

 

It is still wrong.

What makes it wrong?

Actually, I'm curious too. Per the guidelines, there is nothing wrong with leaving religious tracts, so it is OK. Since we're going by the guidelines here, there's nothing in the guidelines that says trading for things I do not like is wrong.

 

FWIW, I don't like religious tracts or commercial advertisement in geocaches, but I don't go out of my way to remove them either, unless they present some other problem (taking up too much space, disintegrating, wet, etc.)

[k_statealan]

Always love it when someone complains about Christians proselytizing while saying its their freedom to not hear it.

 

Well, it's not only a Christian's freedom to proselytize, but a commandment according to their faith as told in the Bible, so telling them not to proselytize is akin to telling them not to practice their faith.

 

Mark 13:10 - The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

 

Mark 16:15 - And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

 

1 Corinthians 9:16 - For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.

[+Da Beast]

Other than people supporting Christianity and sweet potatoes I have not seen any other religion put propaganda in a cache, why is that? Maybe I'll pick up some pamphlets on Wicca, can you imagine how upset some people would be.

i got no problem with Wicca at all but i would not pollute a cache with it

[+bittsen]

All things considered. After reading all the replies...

 

What is the "value" in a religious pamphlet? I don't mean any sentimental value but the down and gritty "value"? Basically, thee are given out freely (and more than freely) all over. What is the actual "value" of one if you are going to trade it out of a cache? A penny? A nickel? Surely not more than a nickel.

In actuality, isn't it really just like a business card? You know, those business cards you find all over. Those worthless business cards that you can often find in a cache.

 

Are you supposed to TRADE for business cards? Are you supposed to TRADE for a religious pamphlet? Is there any reason at all to trade for those?

 

I don't think so.

 

So, if they have ZERO trade value, are they not just advertisements, not even as classy as the junk mail you toss out every week? Since you toss out the junk mail, isn't it safe to say that the junk mail is garbage? Shouldn't we all remove the garbage from caches if we see it?

 

Or am I missing something? Maybe I should go down to the local church or store and grab a weekly flyer or two and then go to caches and trade the flyers for something nice and shiny with real value.

 

Let's face it. There's nothing but advertisement in the religious stuff that some people like to add to caches. Worthless advertisements. Toss em. If you are feeling even a tinge of guilt over it, leave a shiny nickel.

[Clan Riffster]

Well, it's not only a Christian's freedom to proselytize, but a commandment according to their faith as told in the Bible

Very true. There are some sects of Christianity that interpret those scriptures as requirements to spread the Word. However, I have yet to see one of those sects interpret proselytizing as shoving a bunch of poorly written, poorly illustrated pamphlets into game pieces. I think there are way more effective methods available to spread the Word.

[+Kyle98632]

Ugh, before I went to work there were 11 replys to this post. Now that are 111! I think the question really has been answered that yes, tracks are fine in geocaches. Groundspeak isnt here to elimnate anything that anyone could find offensive. I run across things I dont like before. The other day I found an Obama geocoin. What did I do? I put it back, and I enjoyed the geocache and moved on to the next hint and had fun. I didnt let it ruin my day and get into a big fight on a Groundspeak topic board over it.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

I've shrugged off tracts recently, it simply isn't worth the effort of getting worked up over.

So long as it isn't preaching negative/illegal behavior, none should be upset and we would all be happier if we understood that.

 

It's not the message, it's the medium.

 

Whether or not I agree with the message is not the issue. The issue, for me, is that some geocachers see the geocaching community as a willing audience, because we are all out finding geocaches and examing the contents, as a medium for spreading their message, whatever it may be.

 

Perhaps, my objection stems from my very early use of the internet when any sort of commercial use, or propoganda was not tolerated. I recall a specific incident when a upcoming ISP tagged every usenet post with the name of their company and a phone number to call to subscribe for their services. It caused a huge uproar but unfortunately, the "if you don't like it, just ignore it" crowd one out. For me, that was the first step in turning the internet into the spam infested communication medium that it is today.

 

If we all just shrug off commercial solicitations (business cards as swag), religious tracts, or the use of geocaches for the spread of any sort of propoganda, then I suspect that geocaching will suffer the same fate. Frankly, I like the fact that for the most part, geocaching is an activity in which we can participate without a constant commercial bombardment an agenda spreading tool. Just ignoring the practice of using geocaching for spreading agendas is not going to make it go away.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Semi-on topic. Was there ever a religious tract thread that wasn't closed down by a Mod?

Probably not because people seem to have a hard time sticking to the topic in those threads and instead they tend to dissolve into discussions about religion itself rather than than the topic of whether leaving religious tracts is or isn't okay.

[+flask]

 

i got no problem with Wicca at all but i would not pollute a cache with it

 

just your use of the word "pollute" indicates that you do, in fact, have a problem.

[+BlueDeuce]

If we all just shrug off commercial solicitations (business cards as swag), religious tracts, or the use of geocaches for the spread of any sort of propoganda, then I suspect that geocaching will suffer the same fate. Frankly, I like the fact that for the most part, geocaching is an activity in which we can participate without a constant commercial bombardment an agenda spreading tool. Just ignoring the practice of using geocaching for spreading agendas is not going to make it go away.

 

I guess I don't know how to prevent it. When I find various propaganda I trade up, take it out and toss it in the trash. If I tracked down tract leavers and told/asked them to stop it would probably have the opposite effect. They'd probably go out of their way to leave more.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Always love it when someone complains about Christians proselytizing while saying its their freedom to not hear it.

 

Well, it's not only a Christian's freedom to proselytize, but a commandment according to their faith as told in the Bible, so telling them not to proselytize is akin to telling them not to practice their faith.

 

Mark 13:10 - The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

 

Mark 16:15 - And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

 

1 Corinthians 9:16 - For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.

Well, yeah... but because spreading the Word is a Christian mandate that doesn't mean it has to be done everywhere all the time, just where it is appropriate. In a geocache is not.

 

Relieving oneself is also a mandate... it's gotta be done, but you do it in a toilet, not in a geocache, because the bathroom is an appropriate place to do so.

 

I am a Southern Baptist Chaplain and have no problem recognizing when and where pastoring is and isn't appropriate. I am also a Freemason and discussion of religion and politics is prohibited in our lodges for the good of the fraternity. The same is true for geocaching... share the Gospel in conversation, shout it from a street corner if you are so inclined, but leave it out of this game.

[+Col. Flagg]

After hearing the many arguments I have decided that I would not mind some types of religious items in a cache. Any symbols, such as prayer flags, crosses, stars, pentagrams, etc would be acceptable. I would even say some pamphlets with inspiration quotes on it would be fine too, because they would have a positive attitude that anyone could enjoy despite their religion. However those items that are preachy, meant to show you your sinning ways telling you that you will fry for the rest of your life, those I have a problem with.

[k_statealan]

Always love it when someone complains about Christians proselytizing while saying its their freedom to not hear it.

 

Well, it's not only a Christian's freedom to proselytize, but a commandment according to their faith as told in the Bible, so telling them not to proselytize is akin to telling them not to practice their faith.

 

Mark 13:10 - The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

 

Mark 16:15 - And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

 

1 Corinthians 9:16 - For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.

Well, yeah... but because spreading the Word is a Christian mandate that doesn't mean it has to be done everywhere all the time, just where it is appropriate. In a geocache is not.

 

Relieving oneself is also a mandate... it's gotta be done, but you do it in a toilet, not in a geocache, because the bathroom is an appropriate place to do so.

 

I am a Southern Baptist Chaplain and have no problem recognizing when and where pastoring is and isn't appropriate. I am also a Freemason and discussion of religion and politics is prohibited in our lodges for the good of the fraternity. The same is true for geocaching... share the Gospel in conversation, shout it from a street corner if you are so inclined, but leave it out of this game.

 

You did not just equate spreading the Word with taking a leak.

[+bflentje]

After hearing the many arguments I have decided that I would not mind some types of religious items in a cache. Any symbols, such as prayer flags, crosses, stars, pentagrams, etc would be acceptable. I would even say some pamphlets with inspiration quotes on it would be fine too, because they would have a positive attitude that anyone could enjoy despite their religion. However those items that are preachy, meant to show you your sinning ways telling you that you will fry for the rest of your life, those I have a problem with.

 

Only sinners need to worry..

 

ok, sorry, couldn't resist.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

You did not just equate spreading the Word with taking a leak.

You are right, I did not. What I did was cite an obvious case where a cacher must make a decision of when and where something is appropriate.

 

I could just as easily have used politics as religion. Campaign for your candidate where and when appropriate. In a cache listing or flyers in a geocache is not.

Edited November 2, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+flask]

You did not just equate spreading the Word with taking a leak.

You are right, I did not. What I did was cite an obvious case where a cacher must make a decision of when and where something is appropriate.

 

I could just as easily have used politics as religion. Campaign for your candidate where and when appropriate. In a cache listing or flyers in a geocache is not.

 

actually, what i think he did was group them together as important things that need to be done but are not appropriate in every environment.

 

and in a sharp, funny way, too.

[+Mudfrog]

After hearing the many arguments I have decided that I would not mind some types of religious items in a cache. Any symbols, such as prayer flags, crosses, stars, pentagrams, etc would be acceptable. I would even say some pamphlets with inspiration quotes on it would be fine too, because they would have a positive attitude that anyone could enjoy despite their religion. However those items that are preachy, meant to show you your sinning ways telling you that you will fry for the rest of your life, those I have a problem with.

 

I guess i understand what you're saying but still,,, Why would you have any problem with that?

 

It wouldn't matter if Jesse Jackson, the Pope, Oral Roberts, or Peewee Herman tried telling me i was going to fry because i was living my life wrong,,, I'd have no problem at all just ignoring them.

 

We've come across a variety of, what i call, less than desireable swag, in caches. Nude pictures, religious and political pamplets, food, broken toys, used golfballs, ticket stubs, etc,,, No, i personally do not find these to be appropriate swag but they certainly don't cause me any grief, anxiety, of mental anguish when i do come across them!

Edited November 2, 2009 by Mudfrog

[+flask]

No, i personally do not find these to be appropriate swag but they certainly don't cause me any grief, anxiety, of mental anguish when i do!

 

i think the only post that suggested anyone had grief, anxiety, or mental anguish was the one about the little girl with the lesbian mother.

 

everyone else seems to be just fine.

 

i don't like clothing with advertising for alcohol or tobacco products, and i don't think they're appropriate garb for school or business. i do not think they're in good taste anywhere. i am of the opinion that people wearing them are of dubious moral character.

 

if i see them, however, i am not upset, aggrieved, or anxious.

 

i also do not make suggestions to these people (either by correcting them in person or by handing them a leaflet) about how they might clean up their lives and be a better person according to me; it is not my place to do so.

 

if someone starts a conversation about whether these things are appropriate, i will certainly say that they are not. this is how education happens; people talk about things.

 

it is not helpful to dismiss other people's opinions as whining, or to suggest that people who do not like a particular thing are over-sensitive and prone to "mental anguish".

[+Team Cotati]

After hearing the many arguments I have decided that I would not mind some types of religious items in a cache. Any symbols, such as prayer flags, crosses, stars, pentagrams, etc would be acceptable. I would even say some pamphlets with inspiration quotes on it would be fine too, because they would have a positive attitude that anyone could enjoy despite their religion. However those items that are preachy, meant to show you your sinning ways telling you that you will fry for the rest of your life, those I have a problem with.

 

I guess i understand what you're saying but still,,, Why would you have any problem with that?

 

It wouldn't matter if Jesse Jackson, the Pope, Oral Roberts, or Peewee Herman tried telling me i was going to fry because i was living my life wrong,,, I'd have no problem at all just ignoring them.

 

We've come across a variety of, what i call, less than desireable swag, in caches. Nude pictures, religious and political pamplets, food, broken toys, used golfballs, ticket stubs, etc,,, No, i personally do not find these to be appropriate swag but they certainly don't cause me any grief, anxiety, of mental anguish when i do come across them!

 

But that is reasonable and rational.

 

Wrong forum.

[+Vater_Araignee]

 

I've shrugged off tracts recently, it simply isn't worth the effort of getting worked up over.

So long as it isn't preaching negative/illegal behavior, none should be upset and we would all be happier if we understood that.

 

It's not the message, it's the medium.

 

Whether or not I agree with the message is not the issue. The issue, for me, is that some geocachers see the geocaching community as a willing audience, because we are all out finding geocaches and examing the contents, as a medium for spreading their message, whatever it may be.

 

Perhaps, my objection stems from my very early use of the internet when any sort of commercial use, or propoganda was not tolerated. I recall a specific incident when a upcoming ISP tagged every usenet post with the name of their company and a phone number to call to subscribe for their services. It caused a huge uproar but unfortunately, the "if you don't like it, just ignore it" crowd one out. For me, that was the first step in turning the internet into the spam infested communication medium that it is today.

 

If we all just shrug off commercial solicitations (business cards as swag), religious tracts, or the use of geocaches for the spread of any sort of propoganda, then I suspect that geocaching will suffer the same fate. Frankly, I like the fact that for the most part, geocaching is an activity in which we can participate without a constant commercial bombardment an agenda spreading tool. Just ignoring the practice of using geocaching for spreading agendas is not going to make it go away.

I fully understand that it is the medium, the problem is this is a very difficult subject to give a blanket statement too.

Now If I key in on the "Worth" portion.

]If it is a tract from a legit NPO, then it has a value printed on it by law. Usually stating the quantity of the run and individual print worth, typically 100,000 printed at $00.0001 each. My proposed solution, chop up a pre 82 penny and glue them to cards that say trading up for Agenda Tracts. This could even benefit personal health, jokes do that.

If it is a home print, well we all know how fast something like that can junk up a cache due to lower quality paper and ink, CITO them. This could benefit everyones health as it will reduce mold growth.

Either case, no point in raising blood pressure over it.

 

How about keying in on all the two facedness over the issue?

The only difference between a Cristian tract and Prayer flag/Pentacle/Dream catcher with a card that explains them is the fact that they are obviously more materialistically valuable than paper.

 

Advertisement.

Prayer flags, Pentacles, Dream catchers and Crosses are just fine, but when accompanied by a spiritual explanation they degrade to the level of advertisement.

 

The fanatic factor.

Get enough people to ask an advertiser to stop and they will. I my experience, get these people to confront a fanatic and the only thing you end up accomplishing is the fanatic doubles their efforts because you let them know they are being heard. To them, being heard is the same as being listened to.

Throw them in the trash, but once you start saying "STOP" then you're going to start trashing even more.

 

LOOOORRDY-lord have we got to protest that

Some rock-and-roll ninja bit the head off a bat

Lets march his concert, and tell him to hell

Because he is so TEERRRIBLE

Meanwhile his records sales double and triple

'Cuz of you crying about him rubbing his nipple

Religious? Frell, you helped the man

Instead of helping them poor people eating out of them garbage cans

When you're done with them, come protest me

Frell, I could use some money.

 

Yeah, it works both ways. The way I see it, don't get worked up and make a silent choice because the more a few get vocal over it the more we all will have to deal with it.

 

~~~~

 

I just though of something, the original post is technically a tract and so are many that follow.

Unfortunately so are mine.

[+wimseyguy]

Oh, and what would you think about a "Get Out of Hell Free" card?

And just so you know, the creator of the cards made the 1st ones in response to someone telling him he was going to hell. He figured if they could tell him he was going to hell, he could tell others they weren't.

Heh, someone gave me one of those at an event several years ago. Even though I don't believe in the same version of hell as most, I still carry it in my wallet.

 

Regarding the Vote for Kerry pin-his political career is pretty much finished. I'd view that item as a historical memento and not a political agenda promoting one.

Edited November 2, 2009 by wimseyguy

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Oh, and what would you think about a "Get Out of Hell Free" card?

And just so you know, the creator of the cards made the 1st ones in response to someone telling him he was going to hell. He figured if they could tell him he was going to hell, he could tell others they weren't.

Heh, someone gave me one of those at an event several years ago. Even though I don't believe in the same version of hell as most, I still carry it in my wallet.

Therein lies the proverbial 'fine line'... what is iconography, what is humor and what is tract or propaganda.

 

In and of itself iconography is interpreted by the beholder. A cross or star can mean many things to different people.

 

My wife Teresa chose the geonick 'GeoRose' when she found a rosary in her first cache.

 

I wear a silver cross and chain that I found in a cache.

 

I have ordered and put in caches the Get Out Of Hell Free cards.

 

I don't think religious or political tracts and pamphlets belong in caches and won't put them there.

 

See the difference?

Edited November 2, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+briansnat]

The "chick" tracts are incredibly offensive. They are insulting to many Christians, they are frightening to children, and I constantly see them left in public bathrooms, and often in caches

 

They are only offensive if you take offense. I find them to be absolutely hilarious despite the fact that they

take direct aim at Catholics (I was a devout Catholic for the first 46 years of my life) and other groups that I belong to.

 

Well, it's not only a Christian's freedom to proselytize, but a commandment according to their faith as told in the Bible, so telling them not to proselytize is akin to telling them not to practice their faith.

 

Mark 13:10 - The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

 

Mark 16:15 - And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

 

1 Corinthians 9:16 - For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.

 

I don't see where it mentions "in a geocache". Sticking a phamplet in a geocache is a coward's way out. if you want to tell me I'm damned unless I believe what you believe, have the guts to tell me to my face.

 

Sorry Jesus offends so many folks out there. (It is especially in vogue to not like Christianity right now)

 

I don't think it's Jesus that offends so many, it's the unwelcome preaching that people don't care for. As far being in vogue to not like Christians, I find it hard to claim victimhood when you are almost 80 percent of the population.

Edited November 2, 2009 by briansnat

[+Renegade Knight]

I found a religious tract today in the W. Branch Farmington River- Steel Bridge cache at N 42° 04.225 W 073° 03.724.

 

Geocaching is not a religious forum and religious propaganda does not belong in a cache. Some of us find this material offensive. If you insist on propagandizing, at least take credit for your actions and put your name on your material so that the rest of us will know who the offending cachers are.

 

Geocaching is an activity that people do. The people who cache come from all walks of life and all have variations of faith. I've seen Christian, Wiccan, Pagan, Hindu, Muslim, Mormon, Agnostic, and Athiest in the forums, and represented by cachers. No doubt there are others but that's what I've seen.

 

In a world that is going to allow the freedom to practice your faith (and I'm including those who's practice is the advocation of the removal of all outward signs of faith) you have to have enough respect for your fellow man to tolerate their faith and how it's practiced so long as it's done with no harm.

 

You have every right to be offended and outraged that you saw a track in a cache. You have no right whatsoever to obligate others to take your rant seriously. Some will agree with you and, some won't. At the end of the day I don't care to practice my faith accordning to your demands. It doesn't work that way. If my faith demands that I leave little tracts in caches then that's what I'm going to do.

 

Or you can ignore all that and simply realize that people have every right to trade what they will for what they will. It's built into the activity.

 

Your being annoyed at it is your own choice. Enjoy that choice.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Renegade Knight

[+Renegade Knight]

...It's not the message, it's the medium.

 

Whether or not I agree with the message is not the issue. The issue, for me, is that some geocachers see the geocaching community as a willing audience, because we are all out finding geocaches and examing the contents, as a medium for spreading their message, whatever it may be....

 

Tract leavers aren't looking at cachers and caching as a willing medium. Merely one more in their larger goal of spreading the word. It really is that simple. The real targets are whatever opportunity brings their way. Dropping a tract in a cache is merely an opportunity that happned along.

 

It's far less focused than the ISP tagging your newsnet posts (which you would think was copyright infringment since your posts are copyrighted and I doubt the TOS specified you were giving them that right).

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Well, it's not only a Christian's freedom to proselytize, but a commandment according to their faith as told in the Bible, so telling them not to proselytize is akin to telling them not to practice their faith.

 

Mark 13:10 - The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

 

Mark 16:15 - And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

 

1 Corinthians 9:16 - For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.

 

I don't see where it mentions "in a geocache". Sticking a phamplet in a geocache is a coward's way out. if you want to tell me I'm damned unless I believe what you believe, have the guts to tell me to my face....

 

You have a conflict here. The tract is a generic outreach to the larger world. Dropping a track in a cache fits the description you quoted. The goal of the tract is to make you think. In that, it's succeded. Calling an tract (essentially an ad for the faith) cowardly is the result of your thinking about it. In doing that though, you made it specific to you.

[+carleenp]

People can get themselves worked up into so much angst over these things. Personally, I have no interest in religious items and find a number of them to be rather tacky, but I also have no problem ignoring things that don't interest me. So if I see some religious materials in a cache, I just really don't care. It isn't going to have any effect on my enjoyment of the cache or particularly affect my day. Just like the broken McToys and other items that I might not care for won't do so. Plus, someone else might like the religious items. I know a few people who collect such things, and one of them isn't even particularly religious. Who am I to dictate what people might enjoy finding in a cache?

 

Now, if a cache is making its entire theme into something religious with a specific aim to convert people, then it might run afoul of the guidelines against solicitation, but I don't think the simple presence of some religious trade items should cause issues with that.

[+Team Cotati]

"have the guts to tell me to my face...."

 

Please please do not encourage them. It is the 'in your face' rightwing christian contingent that has caused so much disdain towards christians in general.

 

This has only become an issue over the past 20 years or so. It was not that way before.

 

Yet another reason to love and respect those who hold differing religious beliefs or no particular religious beliefs at all.

 

Between the born agains, the TV ranters, and the promise keepers, it'll be a minor miracle if the faith survives....in the United States of America.

 

Religious tracts belong in caches. See #2. I'm wondering what sort of 'cache worthy' things that I might get from friends who are members of other faiths...or not. You know, just to be fair and balanced. I'll have to check on that.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Team Cotati

[+wimseyguy]

It is generally considered OK and within the guidelines to place religious tracts belong in caches. See post #2.

 

fixed it for ya.

[+Team Cotati]

It is generally considered OK and within the guidelines to place religious tracts belong in caches. See post #2.

 

fixed it for ya.

 

Thank you, you're the best.

 

BTW, does any one have information wrt if there are Jewish-Hebrew or Mormon, or Islamic, or Hindu geocoins out there? Or just any sort of medalions for those faiths? Have a good source link?

 

Thanks.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Team Cotati

[+BlueDeuce]

Religious tracts belong in caches.

 

Sure and if you want to place one go right ahead.

 

Most aren't 'offensive', some are even entertaining. Now if I find them annoying, a personal viewpoint obviously, I'll trade them out.

 

Everyone else is free to trade as they wish. Ain't no one gonna stop people from placing them and ain't no one gonna stop people from removing them, regardless of the reasons.

[+Team Cotati]

Religious tracts belong in caches.

 

Sure and if you want to place one go right ahead.

 

Most aren't 'offensive', some are even entertaining. Now if I find them annoying, a personal viewpoint obviously, I'll trade them out.

 

Everyone else is free to trade as they wish. Ain't no one gonna stop people from placing them and ain't no one gonna stop people from removing them, regardless of the reasons.

 

Work'in on it.

[Andronicus]

...i also make a distinction between items that are religious in nature (to which i do not object, regardless of which faith they represent) and items that are intended to correct, instruct, or convert others, which i consider to be very bad manners.

 

it is an arrogance of the first magnitude to consider yourself qualified to sit in judgment on the state of other people's souls and to presume to instruct those other people as to your assessment that you have found them wanting and in need of correction.

 

it is a long way from "Jesus loves me" to "Jesus loves me more than you; 'coz you suck, i know it's true".

 

it is an even longer way to "Jesus left me in charge and i therefore am informing you that you'd better mend your ways and be more like me because you are hell-bound."

...

 

I hope I am not crossing the OT line here, but...flask, I think you are dramatically misjudging the motivation behind the christian tracts. Since the christian faith teaches that everyone is equally 'bad', no one is (or at least no one should be) "sit(ting) in judgment" of you.

[+Renegade Knight]

I am offended by golfballs in caches. Geocaching is not a golfing forum. You should write your name on any golfballs you put in caches so I can attach a name to my self-righteous indignation.

OK... what I really do is either take the golfball out, or ignore it and move on, happy to have found another cache. Maybe you could try it.

 

I take them and shoot them. They bounce really nice. Then they are harder to hit. It makes for great practice.

[+ThePetersTrio]

I'm in the camp that I can ignore these things in caches (until they become a wet, soggy mess...then I CITO them) and move on without a second thought.

 

However...this is an excellent topic. What if the material was promoting Scientology? Aryan Nation? ACORN? Fox News or MSNBC?

 

To those who genuinely feel that religious tracts are just fine in caches...would you also feel the same way should one of your caches contain some sort of promotion of one of the above categories too?

 

Just curious...

[+Renegade Knight]

...I hope I am not crossing the OT line here, but...flask, I think you are dramatically misjudging the motivation behind the christian tracts. Since the christian faith teaches that everyone is equally 'bad', no one is (or at least no one should be) "sit(ting) in judgment" of you.

 

It's a common error on both sides of the fence. Some folks reading the generic tracts take it personally and get offended for "Judging them". Others like flask (and I'm making an assumption here) have dealt with the religious folks who do judge and thereby give that attribute to the kinds of people who would leave a tract in a cache. Judgment isn't supposed to part of the equation but we are human.

[+Renegade Knight]

...However...this is an excellent topic. What if the material was promoting Scientology? Aryan Nation? ACORN? Fox News or MSNBC?

 

To those who genuinely feel that religious tracts are just fine in caches...would you also feel the same way should one of your caches contain some sort of promotion of one of the above categories too?

 

Just curious...

 

It's all the same in a cache. If I were so deeply offended by a tract, I'd simply remove the tract and there would be one less in the world. People who place these things understand that's the fate of most of them. I would not feel guilty if I didn't trade though since I normally leave a foreign coin regardless of trade...it's likely about even.

[+Ambrosia]

I'm in the camp that I can ignore these things in caches (until they become a wet, soggy mess...then I CITO them) and move on without a second thought.

 

However...this is an excellent topic. What if the material was promoting Scientology? Aryan Nation? ACORN? Fox News or MSNBC?

 

To those who genuinely feel that religious tracts are just fine in caches...would you also feel the same way should one of your caches contain some sort of promotion of one of the above categories too?

 

Just curious...

 

We live in a country where everyone is free to have whatever religion they want. I'm glad for that! As a Christian, I shouldn't get riled up by someone else's beliefs, as I would hope they wouldn't get riled up about mine.

[+wimseyguy]

I am offended by golfballs in caches. Geocaching is not a golfing forum. You should write your name on any golfballs you put in caches so I can attach a name to my self-righteous indignation.

OK... what I really do is either take the golfball out, or ignore it and move on, happy to have found another cache. Maybe you could try it.

 

I take them and shoot them. They bounce really nice. Then they are harder to hit. It makes for great practice.

With your gun or 6 iron?

[+Castle Mischief]

 

I hope I am not crossing the OT line here, but...flask, I think you are dramatically misjudging the motivation behind the christian tracts. Since the christian faith teaches that everyone is equally 'bad', no one is (or at least no one should be) "sit(ting) in judgment" of you.

 

The Chsritian faith as you describe it differs slightly from the way it is practiced in the U.S. by a significant number of the Evangelical Protestant flock.

 

 

Firmly back on topic. I have removed political and religious material from my own caches in the past. I have removed blatantly offensive bigotry disguised as religious material from other caches. In both cases I replaced these with other items. I didn't break my brain trying to determine the fair market value of the printed material.

[+Semper Questio]

OK, I understand some folks not wanting to see certain things in caches. I get that. Been there myself. I also see taking things out of caches that just simply should not be there according to the guidelines and Groundspeak's desire to keep the game "family friendly." I've removed butterfly knives, ammunition, porn, and more.

 

What I don't get is if you see something that you don't agree with but is acceptable swag (per the guidelines) why do some feel the need to be swag cops and remove it from the cache and trash it? Why not just ignore it and leave it there for someone else who may be interested in it?

 

Taken out wet paper, broken toys, cigarette butts, and other trash is one thing. But taking swag items out just because you don't like that particular kind of swag, be it a religious tract or a Hotwheels car, just doesn't make much sense to me.

[Clan Riffster]

But taking swag items out just because you don't like that particular kind of swag, just doesn't make much sense to me.

Yeah, me neither. I doubt there is much that could be put in a cache that would offend me. I'm just not all that easy to offend. I've tried to envision a scenario where I was offended by a particular item, and gauge my possible reaction to it. I guess, if it were allowable by the guidelines, and not causing harm by growing mold, I'd leave it right where it was. My personal ethics place tolerance pretty high. (so long as we're not talking about film cans )

[GOF and Bacall]

OK, I understand some folks not wanting to see certain things in caches. I get that. Been there myself. I also see taking things out of caches that just simply should not be there according to the guidelines and Groundspeak's desire to keep the game "family friendly." I've removed butterfly knives, ammunition, porn, and more.

 

What I don't get is if you see something that you don't agree with but is acceptable swag (per the guidelines) why do some feel the need to be swag cops and remove it from the cache and trash it? Why not just ignore it and leave it there for someone else who may be interested in it?

 

Taken out wet paper, broken toys, cigarette butts, and other trash is one thing. But taking swag items out just because you don't like that particular kind of swag, be it a religious tract or a Hotwheels car, just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

If I find it offensive, be it a religious tract or Hotwheels car, and I trade it out that is my business. Are you suddenly the swag police telling me I can't? What next? Will I need to submit my proposed trade in triplicate to get you to sign off on them? Ain't gonna happen.

[+flask]

 

 

I hope I am not crossing the OT line here, but...flask, I think you are dramatically misjudging the motivation behind the christian tracts. Since the christian faith teaches that everyone is equally 'bad', no one is (or at least no one should be) "sit(ting) in judgment" of you.

 

i do not misunderstand tracts, and i do not misunderstand Christian thinking.

 

for starters, Christian faith is rather a broad brush and not all Christian faiths (note my use of plural) consider people to be inherently bad, let alone equally bad.

 

even among sects that consider people and this world to be inherently sinful, many of those sects would not for a moment tell you as an outsider that they have judged you and that you do not meet their expectations. many Christian sects consider it prideful and sinful to judge other people's souls, and would not for a second point out anyone's sinful ways except their own.

 

for anyone to decide even in absentia that another person is in need of proselytization is an act that at its core judges another person to be wanting, and to instruct that person that you have found them wanting either through face to face conversation or by the leaving of little paper messages is both rude and arrogant.

 

it does not matter if you are rude, arrogant, and prideful because you believe you have done me a service; you have still been rude, arrogant, and prideful.

Edited November 2, 2009 by flask

[GOF and Bacall]

But taking swag items out just because you don't like that particular kind of swag, just doesn't make much sense to me.

Yeah, me neither. I doubt there is much that could be put in a cache that would offend me. I'm just not all that easy to offend. I've tried to envision a scenario where I was offended by a particular item, and gauge my possible reaction to it. I guess, if it were allowable by the guidelines, and not causing harm by growing mold, I'd leave it right where it was. My personal ethics place tolerance pretty high. (so long as we're not talking about film cans )

 

To be honest I don't really care so much. I just don't like pushy people telling me how to trade.

 

To those of you who feel so strong about those tracts. How much are they worth? What should I replace 'em with. Keep in mind I know you give 'em away for free. Usually without being asked.