Religious Propaganda

[+WeLuvSports]

I am amazed at the amount of attention this post has generated. At first I thought "Big Deal"..."Who really cares?". Now I am thinking "Wow, people really do care about this issue." My opinion: Leave the religious tracts, I sometimes enjoy reading them. The only way someone could get hurt by these things is possibly a paper cut.

[+flask]

Others like flask (and I'm making an assumption here) have dealt with the religious folks who do judge and thereby give that attribute to the kinds of people who would leave a tract in a cache. Judgment isn't supposed to part of the equation but we are human.

 

and you have made an incorrect one.

 

i draw a distinction between items like prayer cards or rosaries or medallions and tracts which are intended to provide varying degrees of moral instruction or correction.

 

once you decide that you are fit to advise strangers of the perils of their wicked ways, you have judged them, which by your admission shouldn't be part of the equation.

 

the OP asked if these things are appropriate for a cache.

 

they aren't.

 

the OP did not ask if i felt a sense of outrage about it.

 

i don't.

 

i do not like hershey chocolate.

i do not like thick mascara.

i do not like potholes.

 

i am not outraged by any of those things; i simply don't like them.

[+Arrow42]

I am amazed at the amount of attention this post has generated. At first I thought "Big Deal"..."Who really cares?". Now I am thinking "Wow, people really do care about this issue." My opinion: Leave the religious tracts, I sometimes enjoy reading them. The only way someone could get hurt by these things is possibly a paper cut.

 

I think any organization using geocaching as a tool to push an agenda is harmful to geocaching. Atleast in a small way. So, in response, I try to make geocaching a more positive experience for others in a small way by removing the advertisements. Since I usually leave swag in a cache anyway (also, since I want to make the cache a better experience), I might as well call it a trade.

 

"Wait, what about the Jeep Travel Bugs/APE caches!" you might say... well, geocaching.com got income from both promotions and geocachers were involved in a positive way (with the contests, etc) so it did have some mitigation to the crass commercialization.

[+Semper Questio]

OK, I understand some folks not wanting to see certain things in caches. I get that. Been there myself. I also see taking things out of caches that just simply should not be there according to the guidelines and Groundspeak's desire to keep the game "family friendly." I've removed butterfly knives, ammunition, porn, and more.

 

What I don't get is if you see something that you don't agree with but is acceptable swag (per the guidelines) why do some feel the need to be swag cops and remove it from the cache and trash it? Why not just ignore it and leave it there for someone else who may be interested in it?

 

Taken out wet paper, broken toys, cigarette butts, and other trash is one thing. But taking swag items out just because you don't like that particular kind of swag, be it a religious tract or a Hotwheels car, just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

If I find it offensive, be it a religious tract or Hotwheels car, and I trade it out that is my business. Are you suddenly the swag police telling me I can't? What next? Will I need to submit my proposed trade in triplicate to get you to sign off on them? Ain't gonna happen.

 

I never said you or anyone else couldn't do anything. I merely stated I don't understand it. Why so defensive?

[+Team Cotati]

Others like flask (and I'm making an assumption here) have dealt with the religious folks who do judge and thereby give that attribute to the kinds of people who would leave a tract in a cache. Judgment isn't supposed to part of the equation but we are human.

 

and you have made an incorrect one.

 

i draw a distinction between items like prayer cards or rosaries or medallions and tracts which are intended to provide varying degrees of moral instruction or correction.

 

once you decide that you are fit to advise strangers of the perils of their wicked ways, you have judged them, which by your admission shouldn't be part of the equation.

 

the OP asked if these things are appropriate for a cache.

 

they aren't.

 

the OP did not ask if i felt a sense of outrage about it.

 

i don't.

 

i do not like hershey chocolate.

i do not like thick mascara.

i do not like potholes.

 

i am not outraged by any of those things; i simply don't like them.

 

Just as soon as I am able to find and purchase a few religious, non-christian medallions, I am going to keep them in my pack. Any time that I find a similar item in a geocache, it's getting a cousin.

[Andronicus]

 

 

I hope I am not crossing the OT line here, but...flask, I think you are dramatically misjudging the motivation behind the christian tracts. Since the christian faith teaches that everyone is equally 'bad', no one is (or at least no one should be) "sit(ting) in judgment" of you.

 

i do not misunderstand tracts, and i do not misunderstand Christian thinking.

 

for starters, Christian faith is rather a broad brush and not all Christian faiths (note my use of plural) consider people to be inherently bad, let alone equally bad.

 

even among sects that consider people and this world to be inherently sinful, many of those sects would not for a moment tell you as an outsider that they have judged you and that you do not meet their expectations. many Christian sects consider it prideful and sinful to judge other people's souls, and would not for a second point out anyone's sinful ways except their own.

 

for anyone to decide even in absentia that another person is in need of proselytization is an act that at its core judges another person to be wanting, and to instruct that person that you have found them wanting either through face to face conversation or by the leaving of little paper messages is both rude and arrogant.

 

it does not matter if you are rude, arrogant, and prideful because you believe you have done me a service; you have still been rude, arrogant, and prideful.

 

I guess these people who you have encountered interpred the bible much differently than I do.

 

Fully back on topic:

 

2 points.

Point 1: I am a christian, and have been dissapointed when people put these things in there, knowing that the very people they are trying to help, they are instead offending.

 

Point 2: Do the people who leave the tracts make a 'trade' when they leave them? What do they take in exchange for the tract they are trading? How valuable do they think their tract is?

[+bflentje]

Others like flask (and I'm making an assumption here) have dealt with the religious folks who do judge and thereby give that attribute to the kinds of people who would leave a tract in a cache. Judgment isn't supposed to part of the equation but we are human.

 

and you have made an incorrect one.

 

i draw a distinction between items like prayer cards or rosaries or medallions and tracts which are intended to provide varying degrees of moral instruction or correction.

 

once you decide that you are fit to advise strangers of the perils of their wicked ways, you have judged them, which by your admission shouldn't be part of the equation.

 

the OP asked if these things are appropriate for a cache.

 

they aren't.

 

the OP did not ask if i felt a sense of outrage about it.

 

i don't.

 

i do not like hershey chocolate.

i do not like thick mascara.

i do not like potholes.

 

i am not outraged by any of those things; i simply don't like them.

 

i do not like my shift key.

[+Packanack]

Any time that I find a similar item in a geocache, it's getting a cousin.Once upon a time, I found some inexpensive (the store was closing) religious statuettes and placed them in caches, people actually took the time to send private E Mails thanking me for them. I have a little collection of them now, maybe 10 or 12, some at home, some in my office. No one ever told me that they were offended by the statues being in the cache box, on the contrary after learning the story they were happy to have them.

It never dawned on me that they would in anyway be offensive to anyone, and I never heard of anyone being offended. I went through about 100 of them.Some people wanted to know how they could get one.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Packanack

[+PorscheSpyder]

I found an ammo can that was stuffed with a Bible, lots of tracts, etc. Personally, I don't mind running into that sort of stuff, but I DO find it rather annoying when the container is STUFFED with them. I just signed the log and put it back. BTW, the cache was within sight of a church. Whether that had anything to do with it or not, I'm not sure..........It was rather suspicious...........

[Motorcycle_Mama]

...snip ...

Religious tracts belong in caches. See #2. ... snip

 

Nowhere in post #2 does it say that religious tracts belong in caches. Please go back and re-read it. Don't misquote. Thanks.

[+Chrysalides]

Once upon a time, I found some inexpensive (the store was closing) religious statuettes and placed them in caches, people actually took the time to send private E Mails thanking me for them. I have a little collection of them now, maybe 10 or 12, some at home, some in my office. No one ever told me that they were offended by the statues being in the cache box, on the contrary after learning the story they were happy to have them.

It never dawned on me that they would in anyway be offensive to anyone, and I never heard of anyone being offended. I went through about 100 of them.

To me, at least, there is a big difference between a religious object (e.g. a cross, a statuette, rosary beads) and a pamphlet. I probably will not pick up the religious object either, but for the complete opposite reason - it is not my faith, and I cannot treat it with the reverence that I feel it deserves.

[+Packanack]

I actually made one statue into a travel bug people seemingly like finding it, and the message it carries.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=114754

[GOF and Bacall]

Any time that I find a similar item in a geocache, it's getting a cousin.Once upon a time, I found some inexpensive (the store was closing) religious statuettes and placed them in caches, people actually took the time to send private E Mails thanking me for them. I have a little collection of them now, maybe 10 or 12, some at home, some in my office. No one ever told me that they were offended by the statues being in the cache box, on the contrary after learning the story they were happy to have them.

It never dawned on me that they would in anyway be offensive to anyone, and I never heard of anyone being offended. I went through about 100 of them.Some people wanted to know how they could get one.

Few here are bothered by religious items in a cache. It is the pamphlets that tell people they are going to hell if they don't believe the way others do that people find offensive.

 

Edit to cut the photo.

Edited November 2, 2009 by GOF & Bacall

[+Packanack]

People need pamphlets to tell them that they are going to hell ? Whoa, I would think that is something one would know for themselves.

 

No one person believes the way that any other person believes, it is all individualistic, and there is nothing wrong with that. I sure wouldn't let a pamphlet turn up my volume.

[+Arrow42]

Few here are bothered by religious items in a cache. It is the pamphlets that tell people they are going to hell if they don't believe the way others do that people find offensive.

 

Edit to cut the photo.

 

I'd be thrilled to find one of those statues. I'd be thrilled to find a crucifix too!

[+Frank Broughton]

I found a religious tract today in the W. Branch Farmington River- Steel Bridge cache at N 42° 04.225 W 073° 03.724.

 

Geocaching is not a religious forum and religious propaganda does not belong in a cache. Some of us find this material offensive. If you insist on propagandizing, at least take credit for your actions and put your name on your material so that the rest of us will know who the offending cachers are.

 

Sounds like you have "other issues" - get some skin mon!

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Let's stick to the topic.

[+Renegade Knight]

Others like flask (and I'm making an assumption here) have dealt with the religious folks who do judge and thereby give that attribute to the kinds of people who would leave a tract in a cache. Judgment isn't supposed to part of the equation but we are human.

 

and you have made an incorrect one.

 

i draw a distinction between items like prayer cards or rosaries or medallions and tracts which are intended to provide varying degrees of moral instruction or correction.

 

once you decide that you are fit to advise strangers of the perils of their wicked ways, you have judged them, which by your admission shouldn't be part of the equation....

 

Excellent, that's why I let you know the assumption when I lumped you into a larger group so you could respond and set me straight if I were wrong. Thank you. I do disagree with your own assumption. The tracts speak out against wicked ways. The stranger may or may not participate in those ways. The law (from our government) advices me of all kinds of things I out not to do if I were a good "citizen" without judging me once in the process (though there is an implication as to the moral track that I should be following). In that regard the tract is no different. People...they get a bit judgmental. It's hard not too.

 

One of the more interesting tracts I found was intended for muslims. It wasn't about wicked ways at all.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Renegade Knight

[GOF and Bacall]

Few here are bothered by religious items in a cache. It is the pamphlets that tell people they are going to hell if they don't believe the way others do that people find offensive.

 

Edit to cut the photo.

 

I'd be thrilled to find one of those statues. I'd be thrilled to find a crucifix too!

 

You did realize I cut the photo out just to make it easier to view the page, right? I agree that some of those items are nice just for the artistic value.

[+Frank Broughton]

You can always spot the bitter, and angry athiests in any group.

 

I think I've spotted the person leaving religious tracts.

Me too. And I know who they are. You want a username?

 

I have one: Frank Broughton - that's it Urk man. I am hunting down all your caches tomorrow and loading them up.... haha

[+Renegade Knight]

...Just as soon as I am able to find and purchase a few religious, non-christian medallions, I am going to keep them in my pack. Any time that I find a similar item in a geocache, it's getting a cousin.

 

Google the Triquetra.

It has both Christian and pagan connotations.

[+flask]

Others like flask (and I'm making an assumption here) have dealt with the religious folks who do judge and thereby give that attribute to the kinds of people who would leave a tract in a cache. Judgment isn't supposed to part of the equation but we are human.

 

and you have made an incorrect one.

 

i draw a distinction between items like prayer cards or rosaries or medallions and tracts which are intended to provide varying degrees of moral instruction or correction.

 

once you decide that you are fit to advise strangers of the perils of their wicked ways, you have judged them, which by your admission shouldn't be part of the equation.

 

the OP asked if these things are appropriate for a cache.

 

they aren't.

 

the OP did not ask if i felt a sense of outrage about it.

 

i don't.

 

i do not like hershey chocolate.

i do not like thick mascara.

i do not like potholes.

 

i am not outraged by any of those things; i simply don't like them.

 

Just as soon as I am able to find and purchase a few religious, non-christian medallions, I am going to keep them in my pack. Any time that I find a similar item in a geocache, it's getting a cousin.

 

and you're quoting me why?

[+Team Cotati]

...snip ...

Religious tracts belong in caches. See #2. ... snip

 

Nowhere in post #2 does it say that religious tracts belong in caches. Please go back and re-read it. Don't misquote. Thanks.

 

Thanks. I did go back there and read it. And of course you are correct. As a matter of fact in literal terms it does not say that anything belongs in a geocache container. I noticed that it also mentions "other objectionable items". It makes it a real challenge to determine with certainity what does "belong" in a geocache container. Someone mentioned that a logbook belonged there and that makes sense but for everything else it isn't very clear.

 

So since religious tracts clearly do not belong in geocache containers, I won't be putting any in there. However I do intend to go ahead with my fair and balanced plan when I get those medallions or other non-christian religious type trinkets.

 

Thank you for clearing this up for me.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Team Cotati

[+Renegade Knight]

 

 

I hope I am not crossing the OT line here, but...flask, I think you are dramatically misjudging the motivation behind the christian tracts. Since the christian faith teaches that everyone is equally 'bad', no one is (or at least no one should be) "sit(ting) in judgment" of you.

 

i do not misunderstand tracts, and i do not misunderstand Christian thinking.

 

for starters, Christian faith is rather a broad brush and not all Christian faiths (note my use of plural) consider people to be inherently bad, let alone equally bad.

 

even among sects that consider people and this world to be inherently sinful, many of those sects would not for a moment tell you as an outsider that they have judged you and that you do not meet their expectations. many Christian sects consider it prideful and sinful to judge other people's souls, and would not for a second point out anyone's sinful ways except their own.

 

for anyone to decide even in absentia that another person is in need of proselytization is an act that at its core judges another person to be wanting, and to instruct that person that you have found them wanting either through face to face conversation or by the leaving of little paper messages is both rude and arrogant.

 

it does not matter if you are rude, arrogant, and prideful because you believe you have done me a service; you have still been rude, arrogant, and prideful.

 

Now I undersand why you don't like tracts. It's the plank in your own eye theory, yet even the orginator of theory spoke out on the right way to be. That's the trick, it's not about the splinter someone elses eye, it's about getting the word out in general. Moving from a generic track with no specific target to rude arrogant and prideful about how they treated one person who recieved the tract, has a disconnect in the logic.

 

That said if nobody but the perfect could speak to faith, all faith would have died and we would not be talking tracts in a forum. The irony is both real, and troubling but I don't see another solution to keep up the faith.

 

Andronicus, Even though I'm picking nits with Flask, her broad brush is pretty accurate.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Would anybody be offended if they found one of these in a cache?

 

http://www.ship-of-fools.com/gadgets/index.html

 

Because I think it would be totally awesome to see some of this swag. In fact, I may consider some of this on my next cache placement.

 

BTW I just created a cache (unpublished) with one swag item similar to this.

 

I left a tiny yellow "Jesus Loves You" rubber ball in a cache once. Something that I found in an old box that I thought maybe a kid would enjoy playing with - it's a rubber ball after all. I'd prefer it if the cheesy message wasn't there but I can take or leave stuff like that, so I assume the best in people and that they'd be the same.

 

Tracts.. I'm not even fond of them being given out on the street let alone left in a cache - So many Christian tracts I've seen are just tacky. If they were packaged right, I'd leave them, if they were soggy and wet like some expired vouchers for McDonalds and Burger King I've seen, I'd probably CITO them out.

 

I've seen a lot of stuff that makes me question "why on earth?", but I don't really get offended by much. I think the only people who have agendas are people who use 'taking offence' as an appeal to sentiment and emotion, especially in a forum where there is a lot of dynamite which requires only one fuse to be lit.

 

I do question however, and I hope this is not the case, if the tract-leaver traded for it. If they traded for an item that is kind of cheap... in fact I'd pretty much have words if I knew anyone was doing that. Very tacky.

[+ladyrich007]

no message

Edited November 3, 2009 by ladyrich007

[+mrbort]

This whole thread to is sad and scary. I had stopped cachibg for the winter. Im begining to think I might not start back geocaching in the spring. Im a christian and proud to be one. I find this whole thread offensive. I don't think I want to be a part of such a pagen group. I feel like crying.

 

I can't tell if this is a serious response or not. If so, I don't see many pagens (sic) in this thread; I instead see many people of varying degrees of faith debating the appropriateness of religious tracts in geocaches. I've seen a Baptist minister eloquently describe the importance of place and time for proselytizing, people of faith debate what the implications of these tracts are and others who are less inclined toward receiving religious material (without much statement of particular personal affiliation) stating how they regard these tracts (depending on condition). I've also seen people attempt to place the tracts in context with other religious material. To characterize the responses in this thread as a representation of geocachers as pagans is myopic. Don't miss the forest for the trees. If the suggestion that either Christian material is inappropriate or that if Christian material is appropriate, other religious material is also appropriate suggests pagan leanings of the geocaching corps, I think that a reexamination of general principles is in order. If that means you can't geocache because non-Christians geocache then start thinking about the other things you do that involve non-Christians.

 

As for the original question: To me (oddly since it deals with existential quantities) it boils down to swag trading as a material thing. While some things may have objective qualitative values to different people, the quantitative value seems to be the guiding factor. For example a Buddha sculpture is much more difficult to make materially than a photocopy of a Christian tract. In the same vein, an ornate crucifix is much more materially substantive than a photocopy of the teachings of the divine Buddha (the two are meant as an example of philosophic distinction rather than any comparison of any intrinsic philosophy).

[+briansnat]

This whole thread to me is sad and scary. I had stopped caching for the winter. Im begining to think I might not start back geocaching in the spring. Im a christian and proud to be one. I find this whole thread offensive. I don't think I want to be a part of such a pagen group. I feel like crying.

 

I assume your are joking. In the event you aren't, if you read this entire thread, there are numerous Christians who posted here who do not believe that a geocache is an appropriate venue for proselytizing.

 

If you think otherwise perhaps you can create your own geocaching website where you can preach to other Christians to make sure they conform to your personal version of Christianity.

[+ladyrich007]

no message

Edited November 3, 2009 by ladyrich007

[+chrisandjanet]

Hmm...Instead of finders being offended at the religious items in the cache, I wonder if the people whose religion they pertain to should be offended.

 

I've picked up a few dreamcatchers and Buddahs from caches, and a lot of posters here hae said they've found prayer flags and the like. I always kind of thought something like, "cool, here's something that really means something to someone." Then somebody weighed in saying they'd like to find a crucifix in a cache, and I admit, I felt a tad bit uncomfortable at first (I got over it, btw) that a symbol I was raised to believe was sacred would be treated in such a way - chucked in a dirty, damp container with bits of trash.

 

As for the tracts, well, since I already know what kind of life I lead, and I was raised to "know" what kind of l "should" lead (not always the same thing, sorry to say), I don't see the point, nor do I see the harm.

[AZcachemeister]

Likewise, I am secure enough in my own beliefs to not be troubled by this.

If it does bother you....

[+mrbort]

Hmm...Instead of finders being offended at the religious items in the cache, I wonder if the people whose religion they pertain to should be offended.

 

I've picked up a few dreamcatchers and Buddahs from caches, and a lot of posters here hae said they've found prayer flags and the like. I always kind of thought something like, "cool, here's something that really means something to someone." Then somebody weighed in saying they'd like to find a crucifix in a cache, and I admit, I felt a tad bit uncomfortable at first (I got over it, btw) that a symbol I was raised to believe was sacred would be treated in such a way - chucked in a dirty, damp container with bits of trash.

 

As for the tracts, well, since I already know what kind of life I lead, and I was raised to "know" what kind of l "should" lead (not always the same thing, sorry to say), I don't see the point, nor do I see the harm.

 

I really like this post. Especially the part I bolded. It's something I wasn't really considering and adds a really interesting aspect to the discussion. Thanks.

[+Chrysalides]

I really like this post. Especially the part I bolded. It's something I wasn't really considering and adds a really interesting aspect to the discussion. Thanks.

Sure, ignore my post #162 *sniff*

 

[+flask]

 

That said if nobody but the perfect could speak to faith, all faith would have died and we would not be talking tracts in a forum. The irony is both real, and troubling but I don't see another solution to keep up the faith.

 

 

actually, i speak often with people about faith. if you read my logs, it becomes apparent that to me geocaching itself is an act of faith. you don't have to wade through too many logs to know that in the course of my geocaching day i typically stop for prayer at ten, noon, two, and five, as well as at rising and retiring.

 

what i don't do, ever, is tell other people how much they need to reform and look to Jesus.

 

the people who preached faith loudest to me over the course of my life were not tract-droppers or doorbell-ringers. they were not spiritual busybodies who told me what they felt was best for me; they were dignified people living quiet Christian lives.

 

dropping anonymous moral instruction or threats of hellfire is not appropriate to a recreational activity in a diverse population. the idea that we need to modify other people's spiritual lives is disrespectful at best.

 

when someone tells you that they hope you can find God, usually it's not a benediction, but the capstone to the argument, just before they walk off. what they have done in that moment is declare their belief that you are somehow inferior and that if you had a proper relationship with God, you'd agree with them.

 

when you hold yourself in such high esteem that you can speak to someone else with the certainty that YOUR relationship with God is proper and THEIRS isn't, you're asking for trouble. if you tend properly to your own affairs, you haven't the time to correct other people.

 

typically when one speaks against proselytizing behaviors, one is speaking of Christians or muslims; most other religions do not actively seek converts. in regions where islam is not a cultural norm, the "honor" rests mostly on Christians.

 

it is easy to see why people may interpret anti-proselytizing sentiment as anti-Christian sentiment.

[+mrbort]

I really like this post. Especially the part I bolded. It's something I wasn't really considering and adds a really interesting aspect to the discussion. Thanks.

Sure, ignore my post #162 *sniff*

 

ROFL sorry I had rolled up my sleeves and was engaged in the emergent posts in the topic Your post certainly influenced mine... I will bold it.

 

To me, at least, there is a big difference between a religious object (e.g. a cross, a statuette, rosary beads) and a pamphlet. I probably will not pick up the religious object either, but for the complete opposite reason - it is not my faith, and I cannot treat it with the reverence that I feel it deserves.

[+bittsen]

This whole thread to me is sad and scary. I had stopped caching for the winter. Im begining to think I might not start back geocaching in the spring. Im a christian and proud to be one. I find this whole thread offensive. I don't think I want to be a part of such a pagen group. I feel like crying.

 

Assuming you are serious...

 

If you think geocaching is a place where one can, and/or should, freely publicize (ie push) their religious (or political) beliefs, Christian or not, then perhaps it is a good time to give up geocaching.

 

Geocachers should not be considered a captive audience for ANY social soapboxing opportunity.

 

There is nothing in this thread that suggests that any religion, creed, belief, skin color, sexual orientation, age, marital status, financial status, etc should not cache.

What the common theme in this thread represents is that geocaching should be a hobby where a persons beliefs are not pushed onto anyone else (outside of the hobby of geocaching, of course) and each individual is free to believe what they want without worry that they will be force-fed someone elses idea of what is real, yet unproven by science.

[+Okiebryan]

The problem about religion is that there are always extremes. Several religious groups who openly proselytize are in fact incredibly offensive. I take it that several of you have not read my post early on about the friend of my daughter, who happened to be the daughter of a lesbian woman. I took her geocaching with my daughter and I, and she found a chick tract which detailed how that "God hates fags" and how that all those who "practice the abomination of homosexuality" as well as "idol worshipping catholics" were all going to "burn in the eternal lake of fire" that is hell. It was complete with very graphic images.

 

That little girl asked to go home, and cried all the way there. I talked to her mom and explained what happened, and how sad I was that that happened, but she will never go geocaching again.

 

Many of you who don't live in the central US may not know about Westboro Baptist Church. This is the hate group that loudly protests people's funerals, especially American soldier's funerals. They scream at the family during the graveside service and carry signs that say that the soldier died because there are gay people in America. Oh, let's don't forget the signs about "Jews killed Jesus" and the ones about Catholic Priests and little boys. Talk about inappropriate!

 

These people have turned off more people to Christianity that you would believe, myself included. I recognize that the majority of Christians are not like this, but I'm not taking any chances on being connected to that. I commune with my maker in my own very private way.

 

The extremes of the religion are the ones most likely to spend the money to put out the spiritual version of spam otherwise known as religious tracts. I don't like spam, and I despise hateful religious materials. This is why I remove any tracts from caches and throw them away, without even reading them.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Okiebryan

[+Sol seaker]

<snip>Using the forum as a podium to share victimhood, and intolerance of other views is childish.

</snip>

 

Like, um, in forum signatures?

 

You mean referincing the President who indebted us 1 trillion to save 30,000 jobs? Now the rest of the world is dropping the US currency due to it's poor value. All part of that global government that the Bible prophesied about.

 

No, talking about the president who saved us from imment collapse like what happened to the soviet union where they had to wait in bread lines for a day at the chance at a loaf of bread, and were lucky to get any shoes at all,much less a pair that fit.

 

This was what George Bush drove us to with his overspending and de-regulations that allow the biggest US corporations to still not pay any taxes. If we had of kept up his policies the US would have crashed. Take a look back at recent history instead of what the propaganda is machine saying. Remember to look at people's motives when you are told things. Corporations are in charge of the US, and the republicans are being paid off to keep it that way.

 

On that note, I will go off and stand in the corner of off-topic people, and try to redeem myself a big by adding that this stuff really does have no place here. I felt like I had to even the score a bit and speak the other side before I am shut down, but the other side often gets shut down by those trying to make the big bucks. People do not realize how close we came to collapse.

 

So take all political garbage and toss it. This game should be a kind of olympics (how they were meant to be) that is a game that is beyond all political and social fighting. This game should be a way for us to have a commonality that we can reach beyond our differences and meet anyway.

 

Those in power are trying to divide and conquer. Don't let them divide us. Come together through any means. This game is one. Forget the rhetoric. Drop all that they tell you. Join hands in peace here.

 

and distroy all that you see in caches (after properly trading of course)

[+the_bell_dingers]

Geocaching is not a game of just one race, religion, creed, or stereotype of any kind, as many have already pointed out. It is a game for ALL, and I think one of the great parts of this game is that many caches are located in places special to the hider, whether it be a park, statue, church, school, or anything else. Obviously the hider wants to share this spot for the enjoyment of the people. So, I say, if someone wants to make a cache for a Church, Synagogue, or Mosque with pamphlets and other items, so be it. I would take it as a learning activity to learn more about a religion, or place of interest. So cut the arguing about it. Its the cache owner expressing their Freedom of speech.

 

Thank you.

[+Okiebryan]

The tracts I've seen were not put there by the cache owner. It was a geocacher who visited the cache. I know this because the tracts were in at least a dozen of the caches in the area, hidden by several different hiders.

[+flask]

 

Many of you who don't live in the central US may not know about Westboro Baptist Church.

 

oh, we're familiar with their "work".

 

i've had the distinct mispleasure of having them come specifically to my church when we buried a soldier killed in iraq.

 

the response of our town was simply to line the streets quietly and with dignity blocking them from everyone's view.

 

the pastor at another church with whom i have an ongoing friendship recently preached a sermon against hatred and bigotry, holding up our example as one of courage and decency.

[+bittsen]

 

Many of you who don't live in the central US may not know about Westboro Baptist Church.

 

oh, we're familiar with their "work".

 

i've had the distinct mispleasure of having them come specifically to my church when we buried a soldier killed in iraq.

 

the response of our town was simply to line the streets quietly and with dignity blocking them from everyone's view.

 

the pastor at another church with whom i have an ongoing friendship recently preached a sermon against hatred and bigotry, holding up our example as one of courage and decency.

 

Oh, wow, I almost posted an OT comment better suited for a different thread somewhere.

[+flask]

 

Oh, wow, I almost posted an OT comment better suited for a different thread somewhere.

 

to associative thinkers, there's really no such thing as an off-topic remark.

 

wherever a conversation goes is where it goes and is therefore on-topic.

 

linear thinkers have a hard time with that.

 

kay redfield jamison (loosely paraphrasing) postulates that every interesting innovation in the history of people has come about because of an associative thinker. likewise every good idea that actually gets taken from the drawing board and made to work is because of linear thinkers.

[+Okiebryan]

 

Oh, wow, I almost posted an OT comment better suited for a different thread somewhere.

 

to associative thinkers, there's really no such thing as an off-topic remark.

 

wherever a conversation goes is where it goes and is therefore on-topic.

 

linear thinkers have a hard time with that.

 

kay redfield jamison (loosely paraphrasing) postulates that every interesting innovation in the history of people has come about because of an associative thinker. likewise every good idea that actually gets taken from the drawing board and made to work is because of linear thinkers.

 

Can we please stay on topic here? Wait...

 

Sorry couldn't resist...

 

By the way, just to be clear... I have no problem with any religious item or artifact in a cache. I just wish we could all agree to keep the spammy paraphernalia out of geocaching. Those of you who enjoy the tracts, please take a second and think about whether what you are reading could hurt the child I posted about earlier, or another in a similar situation. Then act on your conscience and remove the offensive material.

[+mrbort]

 

Oh, wow, I almost posted an OT comment better suited for a different thread somewhere.

 

to associative thinkers, there's really no such thing as an off-topic remark.

 

wherever a conversation goes is where it goes and is therefore on-topic.

 

linear thinkers have a hard time with that.

 

kay redfield jamison (loosely paraphrasing) postulates that every interesting innovation in the history of people has come about because of an associative thinker. likewise every good idea that actually gets taken from the drawing board and made to work is because of linear thinkers.

 

Thanks flask. I have shared this position for a long time (not just on these boards) and still have a hard time understanding the zeal of the moderators of these boards for strictly enforcing topicality while turning a blind eye to incivility. I like the way conversations flow. I like the rhythm of dialogue. I dislike that I'll be warned to keep this on topic.

 

I really am impressed that this topic has flowed in a generally mature and congenial manner. Despite (or perhaps because of -- in lieu of heavy handed closing of the topic) the fluttering "keep on topic" warnings, people have had really interesting debates about what is an appropriate inclusion in a geocache, specifically focused on religious materials. Impressive dialogue from everyone and I'm glad that I've been a part of it.

 

Cuff me up..

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

... That little girl asked to go home, and cried all the way there. I talked to her mom and explained what happened, and how sad I was that that happened, but she will never go geocaching again...

Oh now wait a minute... talk about extremism!

 

If she finds such a tract that someone left on a table in the service waiting room of a car dealer will she never again buy a car?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

... Those in power are trying to divide and conquer. Don't let them divide us. Come together through any means. This game is one. Forget the rhetoric. Drop all that they tell you. Join hands in peace here.

 

and distroy all that you see in caches (after properly trading of course)

 

Followed by this sig line...

 

"Blessed are the flexible for they shall not get bent out of shape."

 

Edited November 3, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+TrailGators]

 

Oh, wow, I almost posted an OT comment better suited for a different thread somewhere.

 

to associative thinkers, there's really no such thing as an off-topic remark.

 

wherever a conversation goes is where it goes and is therefore on-topic.

 

linear thinkers have a hard time with that.

 

kay redfield jamison (loosely paraphrasing) postulates that every interesting innovation in the history of people has come about because of an associative thinker. likewise every good idea that actually gets taken from the drawing board and made to work is because of linear thinkers.

I agree especially when something has been discussed ad infinitum like this topic, but I'd add a linear thought: Why not enjoy the things that you enjoy and leave the rest for someone else? Live and let live!

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

... That little girl asked to go home, and cried all the way there. I talked to her mom and explained what happened, and how sad I was that that happened, but she will never go geocaching again...

Oh now wait a minute... talk about extremism!

 

If she finds such a tract that someone left on a table in the service waiting room of a car dealer will she never again buy a car?

 

Bingo! The kid needs to be wrapped in less cotton wool IMO. What's gonna happen when she's allowed to stay up and watch the evening news? There's plenty out there to get upset about.

[Clan Riffster]

Google the Triquetra.

It has both Christian and pagan connotations.

The Pentacle has a similar history, finding favor with early Christians.

 

The tracts speak out against wicked ways

For clarification, most tracts I've read speak out against what one particular author perceives to be wicked.

Just because a moldy scrap of poorly written paper claims some act is a sin, doesn't make it so.

I hold to the philosophy that the only true sin is unnecessarily harming another soul.

Everything else is invented nonsense.

 

Does that mean I'm going to Hell?

 

I sure hope not. Rumor has it all they got down there are Magellans...