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thebudman
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I spend a small amount of time searching abandonment laws. Michigan seems to leave every thing but land and vehicles up to counties and lower and that is a difficult search.

I have found 180 in several counties.

I'm also paying for an answer.

when is personal property considered abandoned that has been placed on land the owner has no legal claim over?

Example: A geocache, see geocaching.com

 

Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served.

As per example: I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use.

A. R. Johnson Esq.

 

Immediately after placement unless done with expressed permission.

Kurt Rice

 

I'll report on more and you guys can help me decide who to pay.

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I spend a small amount of time searching abandonment laws. Michigan seems to leave every thing but land and vehicles up to counties and lower and that is a difficult search.

I have found 180 in several counties.

I'm also paying for an answer.

when is personal property considered abandoned that has been placed on land the owner has no legal claim over?

Example: A geocache, see geocaching.com

 

Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served.

As per example: I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use.

A. R. Johnson Esq.

 

Immediately after placement unless done with expressed permission.

Kurt Rice

 

I'll report on more and you guys can help me decide who to pay.

This just proves that getting the opinion of random lawyers is not productive.

 

If you take A.R. Johnson's advice, you could go fetch any active cache if it hasn't been found in one to three months. As an owner of a cache that routinely isn't found for a year or longer, I am not satisfied with this lawyer's interpretation. Further, it does not address the issue of permission. If I have permission to place an item in a certain location, that permission doesn't end simply because the listing becomes archived (or simply because no one has found it in 1 to 3 months).

 

Kurt Rice's advice is obviously bad. According to him, you could fetch any cache that was placed in a location that doesn't require express permission. That's just silly.

 

Edited to add that according to michbar.org, there are no lawyers in Michigan named A.R. Johnson or Kurt Rice.

Edited by sbell111
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Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served.

As per example: I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use.

A. R. Johnson Esq.

 

Immediately after placement unless done with expressed permission.

Kurt Rice

 

I'll report on more and you guys can help me decide who to pay.

This just proves that getting the opinion of random lawyers is not productive.

 

If you take A.R. Johnson's advice, you could go fetch any active cache if it hasn't been found in one to three months. As an owner of a cache that routinely isn't found for a year or longer, I am not satisfied with this lawyer's interpretation. Further, it does not address the issue of permission. If I have permission to place an item in a certain location, that permission doesn't end simply because the listing becomes archived (or simply because no one has found it in 1 to 3 months).

 

I think the key point is "Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served.

 

If the cache was archived the properties purpose has been served.

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Beyond the legal question is that of common practice and custom. We are all geocachers. We know that our game pieces can vanish at any time. We know that if they do there is little we can do about it. If Joe mountain biker stumbles on a cache and carts it away it is one thing. When Sbell111 takes my cache it is a totally different thing. So what I am saying is that what is legal is not the entirety of the question. We have to consider what is socially acceptable amongst ourselves.

 

Edit to add that this is in no way a personal attack on Sbell. Just an example. By the way Sbell, how is the family?

Edited by GOF & Bacall
Link to comment

I spend a small amount of time searching abandonment laws. Michigan seems to leave every thing but land and vehicles up to counties and lower and that is a difficult search.

I have found 180 in several counties.

I'm also paying for an answer.

when is personal property considered abandoned that has been placed on land the owner has no legal claim over?

Example: A geocache, see geocaching.com

 

Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served.

As per example: I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use.

A. R. Johnson Esq.

 

Immediately after placement unless done with expressed permission.

Kurt Rice

 

I'll report on more and you guys can help me decide who to pay.

This just proves that getting the opinion of random lawyers is not productive.

 

If you take A.R. Johnson's advice, you could go fetch any active cache if it hasn't been found in one to three months. As an owner of a cache that routinely isn't found for a year or longer, I am not satisfied with this lawyer's interpretation. Further, it does not address the issue of permission. If I have permission to place an item in a certain location, that permission doesn't end simply because the listing becomes archived (or simply because no one has found it in 1 to 3 months).

 

Kurt Rice's advice is obviously bad. According to him, you could fetch any cache that was placed in a location that doesn't require express permission. That's just silly.

You are so wrong.

Lets start with

180 days is 6 months. Well 6 months if they all have 30 days, 5.8 months if they all have 31, 5.9 if equally divided between 30 & 31 days and 6.4 if you use a 4 week standard. Any one of the three are more accurate than 3 months.

 

If you read a time or two more I'm sure you will see...

If I take Johnson's advice that means first the cache must be archived and second if people are still finding the geocache and signing the log book after archival then I would have to wait one to six months from the last dated signature.

 

As for Rice's advice, the only thing I can say is "It doesn't contradict Johnson" and for all I know, legally a person has no right to expect their property to be considered anything but abandoned if they don't have permission to leave it.

Try capturing evidence of somebody taking a cache not their own that has been placed in R.O.W. without permission and report them to the police and see how far it goes. Better yet, a permission less R.O.W. cache of yours.

I have no clue what will happen, I can only foresee a few outcomes.

They will say no law has been broken because it was abandoned.

They will peruse it as a civil or misdemeanor infraction.

They will treat it like a misdemeanor homicide and ignore it. <--- IF it is illegal this is the most likely course.

 

---------

no new replies to my question, but I get three days.

Link to comment
Beyond the legal question is that of common practice and custom. We are all geocachers. We know that our game pieces can vanish at any time. We know that if they do there is little we can do about it. If Joe mountain biker stumbles on a cache and carts it away it is one thing. When Sbell111 takes my cache it is a totally different thing. So what I am saying is that what is legal is not the entirety of the question. We have to consider what is socially acceptable amongst ourselves.

 

Edit to add that this is in no way a personal attack on Sbell. Just an example. By the way Sbell, how is the family?

About four weeks to go, give or take. Cathy's pretty uncomfortable and stressed that the house isn't going to be perfectly prepared. Thanks for asking.

 

BTW, I should soon have the new cache placed using the ammo box that used to be your cache. Thanks for not giving me a beat down.

Link to comment

I spend a small amount of time searching abandonment laws. Michigan seems to leave every thing but land and vehicles up to counties and lower and that is a difficult search.

I have found 180 in several counties.

I'm also paying for an answer.

when is personal property considered abandoned that has been placed on land the owner has no legal claim over?

Example: A geocache, see geocaching.com

 

Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served.

As per example: I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use.

A. R. Johnson Esq.

 

Immediately after placement unless done with expressed permission.

Kurt Rice

 

I'll report on more and you guys can help me decide who to pay.

This just proves that getting the opinion of random lawyers is not productive.

 

If you take A.R. Johnson's advice, you could go fetch any active cache if it hasn't been found in one to three months. As an owner of a cache that routinely isn't found for a year or longer, I am not satisfied with this lawyer's interpretation. Further, it does not address the issue of permission. If I have permission to place an item in a certain location, that permission doesn't end simply because the listing becomes archived (or simply because no one has found it in 1 to 3 months).

 

Kurt Rice's advice is obviously bad. According to him, you could fetch any cache that was placed in a location that doesn't require express permission. That's just silly.

You are so wrong.

Lets start with

180 days is 6 months. Well 6 months if they all have 30 days, 5.8 months if they all have 31, 5.9 if equally divided between 30 & 31 days and 6.4 if you use a 4 week standard. Any one of the three are more accurate than 3 months.

 

If you read a time or two more I'm sure you will see...

If I take Johnson's advice that means first the cache must be archived and second if people are still finding the geocache and signing the log book after archival then I would have to wait one to six months from the last dated signature.

 

As for Rice's advice, the only thing I can say is "It doesn't contradict Johnson" and for all I know, legally a person has no right to expect their property to be considered anything but abandoned if they don't have permission to leave it.

Try capturing evidence of somebody taking a cache not their own that has been placed in R.O.W. without permission and report them to the police and see how far it goes. Better yet, a permission less R.O.W. cache of yours.

I have no clue what will happen, I can only foresee a few outcomes.

They will say no law has been broken because it was abandoned.

They will peruse it as a civil or misdemeanor infraction.

They will treat it like a misdemeanor homicide and ignore it. <--- IF it is illegal this is the most likely course.

 

---------

no new replies to my question, but I get three days.

Wow. Other than pointing out the fact that my math skills have turned to mush, none of that post had anything to do with mine.

 

Edited to add that since neither Johnson nor Rice are my lawyer (or anyone's apparently), I will not be placing stock in their advice.

Edited by sbell111
Link to comment

Beyond the legal question is that of common practice and custom. We are all geocachers. We know that our game pieces can vanish at any time. We know that if they do there is little we can do about it. If Joe mountain biker stumbles on a cache and carts it away it is one thing. When Sbell111 takes my cache it is a totally different thing. So what I am saying is that what is legal is not the entirety of the question. We have to consider what is socially acceptable amongst ourselves.

 

Edit to add that this is in no way a personal attack on Sbell. Just an example. By the way Sbell, how is the family?

Very true, we should strive as a community to self govern wile staying within the boundaries of law.

Morals and law conflict but hopefully as a community we can come to some form of agreement.

I am not apposed to saying 60 days after archival + last dated log book signature should be the base point for caches located in ROW once all listing sites have been checked and communication efforts with the CO have gone no place.

From that point one needs to know the local law and add any remaining time.

Link to comment

I spend a small amount of time searching abandonment laws. Michigan seems to leave every thing but land and vehicles up to counties and lower and that is a difficult search.

I have found 180 in several counties.

I'm also paying for an answer.

when is personal property considered abandoned that has been placed on land the owner has no legal claim over?

Example: A geocache, see geocaching.com

 

Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served.

As per example: I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use.

A. R. Johnson Esq.

 

Immediately after placement unless done with expressed permission.

Kurt Rice

 

I'll report on more and you guys can help me decide who to pay.

This just proves that getting the opinion of random lawyers is not productive.

 

If you take A.R. Johnson's advice, you could go fetch any active cache if it hasn't been found in one to three months. As an owner of a cache that routinely isn't found for a year or longer, I am not satisfied with this lawyer's interpretation. Further, it does not address the issue of permission. If I have permission to place an item in a certain location, that permission doesn't end simply because the listing becomes archived (or simply because no one has found it in 1 to 3 months).

 

Kurt Rice's advice is obviously bad. According to him, you could fetch any cache that was placed in a location that doesn't require express permission. That's just silly.

You are so wrong.

Lets start with

180 days is 6 months. Well 6 months if they all have 30 days, 5.8 months if they all have 31, 5.9 if equally divided between 30 & 31 days and 6.4 if you use a 4 week standard. Any one of the three are more accurate than 3 months.

 

If you read a time or two more I'm sure you will see...

If I take Johnson's advice that means first the cache must be archived and second if people are still finding the geocache and signing the log book after archival then I would have to wait one to six months from the last dated signature.

 

As for Rice's advice, the only thing I can say is "It doesn't contradict Johnson" and for all I know, legally a person has no right to expect their property to be considered anything but abandoned if they don't have permission to leave it.

Try capturing evidence of somebody taking a cache not their own that has been placed in R.O.W. without permission and report them to the police and see how far it goes. Better yet, a permission less R.O.W. cache of yours.

I have no clue what will happen, I can only foresee a few outcomes.

They will say no law has been broken because it was abandoned.

They will peruse it as a civil or misdemeanor infraction.

They will treat it like a misdemeanor homicide and ignore it. <--- IF it is illegal this is the most likely course.

 

---------

no new replies to my question, but I get three days.

Wow. Other than pointing out the fact that my math skills have turned to mush, none of that post had anything to do with mine.

 

Edited to add that since neither Johnson nor Rice are my lawyer (or anyone's apparently), I will not be placing stock in their advice.

Sure it does, I countered this...

If you take A.R. Johnson's advice, you could go fetch any active cache if it hasn't been found in one to three months. As an owner of a cache that routinely isn't found for a year or longer, I am not satisfied with this lawyer's interpretation.

ANd then this..

Kurt Rice's advice is obviously bad. According to him, you could fetch any cache that was placed in a location that doesn't require express permission.

Did you read & understand what I wrote or just skim & assume understanding?

Link to comment
Beyond the legal question is that of common practice and custom. We are all geocachers. We know that our game pieces can vanish at any time. We know that if they do there is little we can do about it. If Joe mountain biker stumbles on a cache and carts it away it is one thing. When Sbell111 takes my cache it is a totally different thing. So what I am saying is that what is legal is not the entirety of the question. We have to consider what is socially acceptable amongst ourselves.

 

Edit to add that this is in no way a personal attack on Sbell. Just an example. By the way Sbell, how is the family?

About four weeks to go, give or take. Cathy's pretty uncomfortable and stressed that the house isn't going to be perfectly prepared. Thanks for asking.

 

BTW, I should soon have the new cache placed using the ammo box that used to be your cache. Thanks for not giving me a beat down.

 

The least you could have done is log the find. I guess I'll have to settle for the NA you posted.

 

X August 9 by Sbell111 (1625 found)

This cache needs to be archived as I can guaranty the container is missing. Thanks for the cache, for real.

 

:laughing:

 

Glad to hear that all is well. You are doing good if her big concern is that the nursery won't be ready.thumbsup.gif

Link to comment
Beyond the legal question is that of common practice and custom. We are all geocachers. We know that our game pieces can vanish at any time. We know that if they do there is little we can do about it. If Joe mountain biker stumbles on a cache and carts it away it is one thing. When Sbell111 takes my cache it is a totally different thing. So what I am saying is that what is legal is not the entirety of the question. We have to consider what is socially acceptable amongst ourselves.

 

Edit to add that this is in no way a personal attack on Sbell. Just an example. By the way Sbell, how is the family?

About four weeks to go, give or take. Cathy's pretty uncomfortable and stressed that the house isn't going to be perfectly prepared. Thanks for asking.

 

BTW, I should soon have the new cache placed using the ammo box that used to be your cache. Thanks for not giving me a beat down.

 

The least you could have done is log the find. I guess I'll have to settle for the NA you posted.

 

X August 9 by Sbell111 (1625 found)

This cache needs to be archived as I can guaranty the container is missing. Thanks for the cache, for real.

 

:laughing:

 

Glad to hear that all is well. You are doing good if her big concern is that the nursery won't be ready.thumbsup.gif

The nursery is totally ready. She is stressed about minor maintenance issues in other parts of the house, repainting a ceiling and small piece of trim, that sort of thing that always seems to need to get done somewhere.
Link to comment
I spend a small amount of time searching abandonment laws. Michigan seems to leave every thing but land and vehicles up to counties and lower and that is a difficult search.

I have found 180 in several counties.

I'm also paying for an answer.

when is personal property considered abandoned that has been placed on land the owner has no legal claim over?

Example: A geocache, see geocaching.com

 

Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served.

As per example: I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use.

A. R. Johnson Esq.

 

Immediately after placement unless done with expressed permission.

Kurt Rice

 

I'll report on more and you guys can help me decide who to pay.

This just proves that getting the opinion of random lawyers is not productive.

 

If you take A.R. Johnson's advice, you could go fetch any active cache if it hasn't been found in one to three months. As an owner of a cache that routinely isn't found for a year or longer, I am not satisfied with this lawyer's interpretation. Further, it does not address the issue of permission. If I have permission to place an item in a certain location, that permission doesn't end simply because the listing becomes archived (or simply because no one has found it in 1 to 3 months).

 

Kurt Rice's advice is obviously bad. According to him, you could fetch any cache that was placed in a location that doesn't require express permission. That's just silly.

You are so wrong.

Lets start with

180 days is 6 months. Well 6 months if they all have 30 days, 5.8 months if they all have 31, 5.9 if equally divided between 30 & 31 days and 6.4 if you use a 4 week standard. Any one of the three are more accurate than 3 months.

 

If you read a time or two more I'm sure you will see...

If I take Johnson's advice that means first the cache must be archived and second if people are still finding the geocache and signing the log book after archival then I would have to wait one to six months from the last dated signature.

 

As for Rice's advice, the only thing I can say is "It doesn't contradict Johnson" and for all I know, legally a person has no right to expect their property to be considered anything but abandoned if they don't have permission to leave it.

Try capturing evidence of somebody taking a cache not their own that has been placed in R.O.W. without permission and report them to the police and see how far it goes. Better yet, a permission less R.O.W. cache of yours.

I have no clue what will happen, I can only foresee a few outcomes.

They will say no law has been broken because it was abandoned.

They will peruse it as a civil or misdemeanor infraction.

They will treat it like a misdemeanor homicide and ignore it. <--- IF it is illegal this is the most likely course.

 

---------

no new replies to my question, but I get three days.

Wow. Other than pointing out the fact that my math skills have turned to mush, none of that post had anything to do with mine.

 

Edited to add that since neither Johnson nor Rice are my lawyer (or anyone's apparently), I will not be placing stock in their advice.

Sure it does, I countered this...
If you take A.R. Johnson's advice, you could go fetch any active cache if it hasn't been found in one to three months. As an owner of a cache that routinely isn't found for a year or longer, I am not satisfied with this lawyer's interpretation.
ANd then this..
Kurt Rice's advice is obviously bad. According to him, you could fetch any cache that was placed in a location that doesn't require express permission.
Did you read & understand what I wrote or just skim & assume understanding?
I understood perfectly. Your interpretation of what you claim that 'Johnson' said is off, however. He clearly took the position that any listed cache that hasn't been found in 30 to 180 days could be removed. As I previously tried to explain, the advice from 'Rice' is bad simply because he clearly doesn't understand the intricacies of permission as they relate to geocaching.
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...I think the key point is "Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served.

 

If the cache was archived the properties purpose has been served.

 

A legal answer would be under the abandoned property laws (pretty much all caches fit most of these laws active or not, archived or not) and/or litter laws. Most caches fall short of meeting the defintion of litter. Most would be swept up in the abandoned property law but for the spirit and intent of the law.

 

If the cache is archived the properties purpose may or may not have been served. I've had my caches archived on this site becasue my stated maintenance schedule was not up to the standard the reviewer had in mind. In no way did that artificial archival mean my cache has served it's purpose and was "done" abandoned and litter. It's alive and well even if not being found.

Link to comment

I understood perfectly. Your interpretation of what you claim that 'Johnson' said is off, however. He clearly took the position that any listed cache that hasn't been found in 30 to 180 days could be removed. As I previously tried to explain, the advice from 'Rice' is bad simply because he clearly doesn't understand the intricacies of permission as they relate to geocaching.

He was very clear that if somebody is still signing the log on an archived cache (or no longer listed as he put it) then the cache is still serving it intended purpose, so I'm not sorry to tell you that you are wrong.

 

"because he clearly doesn't understand the intricacies of permission as they relate to geocaching" makes geocaching sound as if it is provisioned for in the law. Geocaching has no more rights to ROW than anything else unless expressed permission has been given for a particular cache, as such they fall under abandoned property laws. Assumed and expressed are two different things, so in short yer wrong again.

 

~~~edit to remove that ginormous mass of quotes~~~

Edited by Vater_Araignee
Link to comment
I understood perfectly. Your interpretation of what you claim that 'Johnson' said is off, however. He clearly took the position that any listed cache that hasn't been found in 30 to 180 days could be removed. As I previously tried to explain, the advice from 'Rice' is bad simply because he clearly doesn't understand the intricacies of permission as they relate to geocaching.
He was very clear that if somebody is still signing the log on an archived cache (or no longer listed as he put it) then the cache is still serving it intended purpose, so I'm not sorry to tell you that you are wrong.
While it is possible that this mystery person told you something other than you posted, your current argument runs contrary to what you claimed his advice was.

 

His statement that caches should be considered abandoned "if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use" clearly argues that any cache that goes unfound for a period of time from one to six months should be removed.

"because he clearly doesn't understand the intricacies of permission as they relate to geocaching" makes geocaching sound as if it is provisioned for in the law. Geocaching has no more rights to ROW than anything else unless expressed permission has been given for a particular cache, as such they fall under abandoned property laws. Assumed and expressed are two different things, so in short yer wrong again.
You are creating a scenario to make his statement work.

 

You claimed that Kurt Smith, whoever that is, stated that caches should be considered abandoned "Immediately after placement unless done with expressed permission".

 

The only way to read this is that he believes that all caches require express permission. Therefore, it is clear that he doesn't understand the intricacies of permission. Perhaps you don't, either.

Edited by sbell111
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We've heard from only one member, but we also have been alse to review their published policy:

 

This is all there is to it:

  1. Archived caches are listed on MiGo's site.
  2. MiGo members visit the sites and remove any remaining caches.

  • There is no attempt to reach the owners of the items.
  • There are no attempts to verify that the caches are active on any of the other listing sites.
  • No attempts to return the caches to their owners are made. Instead, the caches are 'recycled'. MiGo members get free ammo cans.
  • If an owner contacts MiGo prior to their removing his cache, they will take it off their kidnap list.
  • There is no 'waiting time' to allow a cache owner to remove his cache or contact MiGo to tell them to keep their mitts off his cache.

 

The lack of explicitly referring to contacting the cache owners does not neccessarily mean that they do not attempt to do so. You seem to imply that they definately do NOT EVER attempt to contact them, as though that is somehow stated in their cache page. That is why I keep hoping to hear from other MiGo members (or those from groups with similar programs). However, tonight, all I am getting from MiGo is 404 errors.

Link to comment
We've heard from only one member, but we also have been alse to review their published policy:

 

This is all there is to it:

  1. Archived caches are listed on MiGo's site.
  2. MiGo members visit the sites and remove any remaining caches.

  • There is no attempt to reach the owners of the items.
  • There are no attempts to verify that the caches are active on any of the other listing sites.
  • No attempts to return the caches to their owners are made. Instead, the caches are 'recycled'. MiGo members get free ammo cans.
  • If an owner contacts MiGo prior to their removing his cache, they will take it off their kidnap list.
  • There is no 'waiting time' to allow a cache owner to remove his cache or contact MiGo to tell them to keep their mitts off his cache.

The lack of explicitly referring to contacting the cache owners does not neccessarily mean that they do not attempt to do so. You seem to imply that they definately do NOT EVER attempt to contact them, as though that is somehow stated in their cache page. That is why I keep hoping to hear from other MiGo members (or those from groups with similar programs). However, tonight, all I am getting from MiGo is 404 errors.
In my experience, when people write a policy/procedure, they include those activities that they believe is important to the process. Activities that are not included in the policy/procedure are generally not deemed important and not undertaken when the policy/procedure is implemented.
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sbell,

Lets break down what was explicitly posted.

 

"Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served."

What is in this? A time limit 30 to 180 days and a qualifiers as to when the time limit starts.

 

As per example: I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use.

Now I can understand how you can twist this one but it is plane and simple. Note the word HOWEVER? Everything that follows it is merely and extension of what he already said.

Let me see if I can clarify for you, but to avoid a hock argument I will first make declare in my clarification that archived means "not listed anywhere".

An archived geocaches count down to abandonment resets every time a new dated signature gets entered into its log book.

 

-------

As for creating a scenario to make something work, that is entirely untrue. I only point out that no matter how special YOU want to think geocaching is, it is not. A geocache has no more legal protection than a bums cache.

Property is property is property and unless laws get changed a geocache is always going to be held in the same light as a homeless persons valuables stash and gets no more/no less protection under the law.

Link to comment
We've heard from only one member, but we also have been alse to review their published policy:

 

This is all there is to it:

  1. Archived caches are listed on MiGo's site.
  2. MiGo members visit the sites and remove any remaining caches.

  • There is no attempt to reach the owners of the items.
  • There are no attempts to verify that the caches are active on any of the other listing sites.
  • No attempts to return the caches to their owners are made. Instead, the caches are 'recycled'. MiGo members get free ammo cans.
  • If an owner contacts MiGo prior to their removing his cache, they will take it off their kidnap list.
  • There is no 'waiting time' to allow a cache owner to remove his cache or contact MiGo to tell them to keep their mitts off his cache.

The lack of explicitly referring to contacting the cache owners does not neccessarily mean that they do not attempt to do so. You seem to imply that they definately do NOT EVER attempt to contact them, as though that is somehow stated in their cache page. That is why I keep hoping to hear from other MiGo members (or those from groups with similar programs). However, tonight, all I am getting from MiGo is 404 errors.
In my experience, when people write a policy/procedure, they include those activities that they believe is important to the process. Activities that are not included in the policy/procedure are generally not deemed important and not undertaken when the policy/procedure is implemented.

In my experience none lawyers who write policy/procedure leave out what they consider to be common sense or think would automatically be assumed. That is why my company has loopholes I can drive a high-low through.

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sbell,

Lets break down what was explicitly posted.

 

"Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served."

What is in this? A time limit 30 to 180 days and a qualifiers as to when the time limit starts.

 

As per example: I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use.

Now I can understand how you can twist this one but it is plane and simple. Note the word HOWEVER? Everything that follows it is merely and extension of what he already said.

Let me see if I can clarify for you, but to avoid a hock argument I will first make declare in my clarification that archived means "not listed anywhere".

An archived geocaches count down to abandonment resets every time a new dated signature gets entered into its log book.

 

-------

I don't think that you know what 'however' means.

 

 

As for creating a scenario to make something work, that is entirely untrue. I only point out that no matter how special YOU want to think geocaching is, it is not. A geocache has no more legal protection than a bums cache.

Property is property is property and unless laws get changed a geocache is always going to be held in the same light as a homeless persons valuables stash and gets no more/no less protection under the law.

You claimed that Kurt Smith, whoever that is, stated that caches should be considered abandoned "Immediately after placement unless done with expressed permission".

 

The only way to read this is that he believes that all caches require express permission. Therefore, it is clear that he doesn't understand the intricacies of permission. Perhaps you don't, either.

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We've heard from only one member, but we also have been alse to review their published policy:

 

This is all there is to it:

  1. Archived caches are listed on MiGo's site.
  2. MiGo members visit the sites and remove any remaining caches.

  • There is no attempt to reach the owners of the items.
  • There are no attempts to verify that the caches are active on any of the other listing sites.
  • No attempts to return the caches to their owners are made. Instead, the caches are 'recycled'. MiGo members get free ammo cans.
  • If an owner contacts MiGo prior to their removing his cache, they will take it off their kidnap list.
  • There is no 'waiting time' to allow a cache owner to remove his cache or contact MiGo to tell them to keep their mitts off his cache.

The lack of explicitly referring to contacting the cache owners does not neccessarily mean that they do not attempt to do so. You seem to imply that they definately do NOT EVER attempt to contact them, as though that is somehow stated in their cache page. That is why I keep hoping to hear from other MiGo members (or those from groups with similar programs). However, tonight, all I am getting from MiGo is 404 errors.
In my experience, when people write a policy/procedure, they include those activities that they believe is important to the process. Activities that are not included in the policy/procedure are generally not deemed important and not undertaken when the policy/procedure is implemented.

In my experience none lawyers who write policy/procedure leave out what they consider to be common sense or think would automatically be assumed. That is why my company has loopholes I can drive a high-low through.

I'm sorry, but that post made no sense.
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sbell,

Lets break down what was explicitly posted.

 

"Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served."

What is in this? A time limit 30 to 180 days and a qualifiers as to when the time limit starts.

 

As per example: I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use.

Now I can understand how you can twist this one but it is plane and simple. Note the word HOWEVER? Everything that follows it is merely and extension of what he already said.

Let me see if I can clarify for you, but to avoid a hock argument I will first make declare in my clarification that archived means "not listed anywhere".

An archived geocaches count down to abandonment resets every time a new dated signature gets entered into its log book.

 

-------

I don't think that you know what 'however' means.

 

 

As for creating a scenario to make something work, that is entirely untrue. I only point out that no matter how special YOU want to think geocaching is, it is not. A geocache has no more legal protection than a bums cache.

Property is property is property and unless laws get changed a geocache is always going to be held in the same light as a homeless persons valuables stash and gets no more/no less protection under the law.

You claimed that Kurt Smith, whoever that is, stated that caches should be considered abandoned "Immediately after placement unless done with expressed permission".

 

The only way to read this is that he believes that all caches require express permission. Therefore, it is clear that he doesn't understand the intricacies of permission. Perhaps you don't, either.

1. in whatever manner

2. in way that

Using although as the definition is archaic.

so who is it that doesn't know the definition my testy spell checker?

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sbell,

Lets break down what was explicitly posted.

 

"Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served."

What is in this? A time limit 30 to 180 days and a qualifiers as to when the time limit starts....

 

Personal property may fit the legal defintion of abandoned property, but it's not actually abandoned if ithe owner is still activly interested in it.

 

Caching hits the letter of the law but not the spirit. That spirit is important in a healthy society. Otherwise you expell cub scouts for bringing their mess kit to school

 

A very important nit is the "is" that I bolded. That would be better worded as "may be deemed" meaning that choice on the part of the agency is involved.

 

Lastly. Abandoned property laws authorize government agencies to deal with abandoned property. It does not all all give Joe Cacher any such authority even if Joe Cacher is a part of caching organization. The law isn't for his use in this regard. In some cases where Joe Citizen does have to deal with abandoned property there is a rigourous process. (Just try to claim an abandoned car on your property, a situation I'm in right now).

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...I think the key point is "Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served.

 

If the cache was archived the properties purpose has been served.

If the cache were archived it's purpose may have been served. I actually like the "after the purpose has been served" concept. It allows for things like game cameras and other activly owned items of personal property that do have a purpose even though they often do fit the legal defintion of abandoned property to be regarded as what they are. Non abandoned personal property. 30 to 180 days is a nice range but the reason for the range is a healhy dose of reality. You can't really go get your cache on a mountain trail that's snowed in 9 month of the year. Reality is allowing for this kind of contengency. The range is an effort to do so.

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sbell,

Lets break down what was explicitly posted.

 

"Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served."

What is in this? A time limit 30 to 180 days and a qualifiers as to when the time limit starts.

 

As per example: I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use.

Now I can understand how you can twist this one but it is plane and simple. Note the word HOWEVER? Everything that follows it is merely and extension of what he already said.

Let me see if I can clarify for you, but to avoid a hock argument I will first make declare in my clarification that archived means "not listed anywhere".

An archived geocaches count down to abandonment resets every time a new dated signature gets entered into its log book.

 

-------

I don't think that you know what 'however' means.

 

 

As for creating a scenario to make something work, that is entirely untrue. I only point out that no matter how special YOU want to think geocaching is, it is not. A geocache has no more legal protection than a bums cache.

Property is property is property and unless laws get changed a geocache is always going to be held in the same light as a homeless persons valuables stash and gets no more/no less protection under the law.

You claimed that Kurt Smith, whoever that is, stated that caches should be considered abandoned "Immediately after placement unless done with expressed permission".

 

The only way to read this is that he believes that all caches require express permission. Therefore, it is clear that he doesn't understand the intricacies of permission. Perhaps you don't, either.

1. in whatever manner

2. in way that

Using although as the definition is archaic.

so who is it that doesn't know the definition my testy spell checker?

When can I play tennis on the public court?

 

The courts are open for public play from 8-5 Monday through Thursday. However, the public can play one the courts Friday through Saturday if they reserve them.

 

You will note that the times available in the second sentence are not a subset of the first, even though 'however' is used. Similarly, when some guy named Johnson stated that "I don't know much about geo caching but a geocache can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after it is no longer listed however, if a geo cache is still being used as a geo cache then 30 to 180 days after it last use." He gave us his opinion on not one scenario, but two.

 

According to that guy, caches can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after they are no longer listed AND caches that are still active can be considered abandoned 30 to 180 days after their last use. Therefore, it appears that he is saying that caches that are still listed (active) can be considered abandoned after they have last been found (used).

 

At this point, I think it's appropriate to go back to my previous point that getting legal advice from random people (even if these guys were real lawyers) would not be especially helpful if they are familiar with the issues being discussed.

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sbell,

Lets break down what was explicitly posted.

 

"Personal property is abandoned property when the owner took no voluntary act in recovering the property 30 to 180 days (depending on municipality) after the properties purpose has been served."

What is in this? A time limit 30 to 180 days and a qualifiers as to when the time limit starts....

 

Personal property may fit the legal defintion of abandoned property, but it's not actually abandoned if ithe owner is still activly interested in it.

 

Caching hits the letter of the law but not the spirit. That spirit is important in a healthy society. Otherwise you expell cub scouts for bringing their mess kit to school

 

A very important nit is the "is" that I bolded. That would be better worded as "may be deemed" meaning that choice on the part of the agency is involved.

 

Lastly. Abandoned property laws authorize government agencies to deal with abandoned property. It does not all all give Joe Cacher any such authority even if Joe Cacher is a part of caching organization. The law isn't for his use in this regard. In some cases where Joe Citizen does have to deal with abandoned property there is a rigourous process. (Just try to claim an abandoned car on your property, a situation I'm in right now).

Underlined isn't entirely true, abandonment laws are also part of salvage laws. The type of item determines what laws and agencies come into play, even civilian.

Unfortunately cant ask for clarification from Johnson until I have decided to pay him. It looks like it is going to be him but I'm waiting.

It is not the point I'm arguing though, which is sbell111 has obviously misinterpret what was stated to include active caches in an attempt to declare the entire statement as wrong.

As far as I am concerned morals my be the basis for law, but they don't simply render a law non existent.

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I will jump in as another MiGO member. I have talked with some involved with the Rescue Mission in the past because of seeing a few listed in my immediate area, one of which is on private property and I know the land managers of that particular property. Many of the caches in the Rescue do have a note published to them upon inclusion to contact the owner. I have not been around long enough to know when that may have started. The Rescue Mission is also updated in batches, it is not real time by any means. Several of the rescues are performed off the official Rescue Mission as well. Many of the cachers I have spoke with wait for six months or better before going out after a cache to rescue.

 

One of the caches I retrieved was a cache in the Ann Arbor area. I was asked to get to the container by another member from the other side of the state who dropped a TB (the main reason for getting to it) in it without knowing it had been archived. Looking at the cache page, the owner had been contacted several times through various members over a 6+ month period of time before the cache was archived. When I picked it up, the cache had been archived for seven months. I logged it and told them it had been removed since it was archived. I also sent a message telling them to contact me, if they wanted the container returned to them or the site. I have checked the other sites occasionally to see if anything is in the area, so I have an idea if one is present. This was an old cache, but the owner has not logged in for a couple of years. I did not report this one to MiGO as it was not listed as a cache up for rescue.

 

Concerning the case of state land, MiGO has worked with the DNR to be able to use the land. These permits are only good for one year. Some of the cachers have worked to establish exemptions for particular caches. When an archived cache is spotted on state land after being archived for several months or longer (especially with the big green MiGO sticker on it), I feel it is better to remove it than chance losing our access to state land again.

 

Another common theme among the older Rescue Mission caches is to see on the archive note by the user is something to the effect of: "I placed while on vacation and now realized it may not have been the best place to put a cache." It was found up until then, but never again and in many cases the owner never returned to the area.

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