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is this allowed?


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found a nanocache today, which involved having to remove a sign from a fencepost, as the cache was hidden actually BEHIND the sign in a hole drilled in the post :D

 

surely this is along the same lines as 'burying'? and even is borderline on vandalising.... due to having to pull signs off fenceposts???

 

from confused of wales

 

If the cache owner owns the sign, it's OK. Bad form, but OK.

 

My question is. What inspired you to remove the sign? I would never deface private (or public) property to find a cache. A smiley just isn't important enough for me to disassemble stuff that doesn't belong to me.

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Bigger question I think......... is the ownership of the signpost or permission of the owner granted.

 

Otherwise, do the attributes mention required use of tools? This is assuming of course, that you can replace the removed sign without having damaged it by removing same.

 

As far as the "burying" aspect, I do not know for sure but I don't believe that it would be as digging/burying the cache into terra firma.

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found a nanocache today, which involved having to remove a sign from a fencepost, as the cache was hidden actually BEHIND the sign in a hole drilled in the post :D

 

surely this is along the same lines as 'burying'? and even is borderline on vandalising.... due to having to pull signs off fenceposts???

 

from confused of wales

 

If the cache owner owns the sign, it's OK. Bad form, but OK.

 

My question is. What inspired you to remove the sign? I would never deface private (or public) property to find a cache. A smiley just isn't important enough for me to disassemble stuff that doesn't belong to me.

 

Yes I guess they do own the sign. This cache is in Wales, UK, and the sign displayed a national park name for a national park in England UK. Thats how I spotted it.

 

Why did I remove it? well the one corner of the sign had been cracked by a previos finder, so my thought was "aha! this has been pulled off before" so I just pulled it off, and there it was....

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we had a cache placed in our area recently that was along the same lines. The cache was hidden inside a hollowed out post, that had an old power meter over it. Two wing nuts held the power meter over the hollowed out section. Any person walking by would just see an old post with a broken power meter in the bushes. Wing nuts were finger tight and in my opinion, a pretty cool hide. I have a couple ideas floating in my head for hiding caches behind signs. One involves a fence and the other would be one I dig and place myself in the woods. Oh man, it's raining today, I should go get started on this.

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If the CO obtained permission from the property owner there is no problem.

 

I have seen signs placed with the primary purpose of hiding a cache. Any information on the sign was part of the camouflage.

 

Oh but there IS a problem.

 

Unless there is wording in the CO's descriptive information OR that upon visual inspection by a finder that the cache container is obviously out of place or somehow an unnatural part of its surroundings, the stage is set for finders to inadvertently damage or vandalize the location.

 

Realistic containers in unnatural locations are fine. Realistic cache containers mixed in with other essentially identical non- cache containers promotes this damaging behavior.

 

I'd advise against doing it.

 

From what I've seen and heard, there must be hundreds if not thousands of guard rail hides in this country that have been created by the removal of guard rail mounting components, most often the large bolts.

 

So those new to the game come to expect and understand that since they have seen some hides like this that it must therefore be ok to disassemble parts of guard rails.

 

Oddly I've also seen some cachers try and make a valid case that the state and county highway departments, if they knew about this, would approve.

 

I fail to see a similarity with the burying guideline.

Edited by Team Cotati
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no tools were needed to remove the sign. it was held on with four small smooth nails, that simply pulled straight off, to reveal the cache in the hole behind the sign.

 

My whole point to posting this topic, was to ask whether we should need to remove signs off fence posts (with tools or otherwise) in order to find caches.... From what I can gather, the general concensus is a firm NO!

 

So, should this cache be allowed? as to all intents and purposes, encourages vandalism? What if people go around just randomly pulling signs off fenceposts, "just in case" a cache is behind one of them!

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no tools were needed to remove the sign. it was held on with four small smooth nails, that simply pulled straight off, to reveal the cache in the hole behind the sign.

 

My whole point to posting this topic, was to ask whether we should need to remove signs off fence posts (with tools or otherwise) in order to find caches.... From what I can gather, the general concensus is a firm NO!

 

So, should this cache be allowed? as to all intents and purposes, encourages vandalism? What if people go around just randomly pulling signs off fenceposts, "just in case" a cache is behind one of them!

 

"What if people go around just randomly pulling signs off fenceposts, "just in case" a cache is behind one of them!"

 

Exactly. :D

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I've seen bolt that had to be unbolted from posts and benches that contained the log sheet and coordinates hidden behind letters on signs that had to be peeled back to find. Around here we have signs that have stickers on them stating penalties for defacing or removing. So, I'd say this one may be a matter of judgment on both the cache owner and the cachers.

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no tools were needed to remove the sign. it was held on with four small smooth nails, that simply pulled straight off, to reveal the cache in the hole behind the sign.

 

My whole point to posting this topic, was to ask whether we should need to remove signs off fence posts (with tools or otherwise) in order to find caches.... From what I can gather, the general concensus is a firm NO!

 

So, should this cache be allowed? as to all intents and purposes, encourages vandalism? What if people go around just randomly pulling signs off fenceposts, "just in case" a cache is behind one of them!

 

Groundspeak is a listing service, not the cache police. It is up to the hiders to use common sense and the hunters to offer up problems. If the problems are severe enough then Groundspeak will remove it from their listing service.

Groundspeak is only one of the listing services. There are others.

 

So, while it might not be the best way to hide a cache, Groundspeak will only intervene if there is a problem serious enough for them to need to remove it from the listing.

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If the CO obtained permission from the property owner there is no problem.

 

I have seen signs placed with the primary purpose of hiding a cache. Any information on the sign was part of the camouflage.

 

Oh but there IS a problem.

 

Unless there is wording in the CO's descriptive information OR that upon visual inspection by a finder that the cache container is obviously out of place or somehow an unnatural part of its surroundings, the stage is set for finders to inadvertently damage or vandalize the location.

 

Realistic containers in unnatural locations are fine. Realistic cache containers mixed in with other essentially identical non- cache containers promotes this damaging behavior.

 

I'd advise against doing it.

 

From what I've seen and heard, there must be hundreds if not thousands of guard rail hides in this country that have been created by the removal of guard rail mounting components, most often the large bolts.

 

So those new to the game come to expect and understand that since they have seen some hides like this that it must therefore be ok to disassemble parts of guard rails.

 

Oddly I've also seen some cachers try and make a valid case that the state and county highway departments, if they knew about this, would approve.

 

I fail to see a similarity with the burying guideline.

 

What rule is being broken if the hider has permission? Even the bolts removed from a guardrail could be done if the proper permission is obtained. Not that I think permission would ever be given for such a hide.

Edited by GOF & Bacall
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no tools were needed to remove the sign. it was held on with four small smooth nails, that simply pulled straight off, to reveal the cache in the hole behind the sign.

 

My whole point to posting this topic, was to ask whether we should need to remove signs off fence posts (with tools or otherwise) in order to find caches.... From what I can gather, the general concensus is a firm NO!

 

So, should this cache be allowed? as to all intents and purposes, encourages vandalism? What if people go around just randomly pulling signs off fenceposts, "just in case" a cache is behind one of them!

To me this sounds like a potentially clever and well done cache. Without a lot more information and detail I don't understand how anyone could say it is a problem.

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FWIW, the caches I've found that looked like nuts, bolts, and other bits of hardware have been placed in addition to all the existing nuts, bolts, and other bits of hardware. No existing nuts, bolts, and other bits of hardware were removed to create a place to hide the cache.

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I found a cache that was a match container, hidden in a wallowed out recess behind a sign. The sign was affixed to the fencepost using rare earth magnets. The CO owned the sign and had permission to place the post. I thought it was great. Did it encourage me to start yanking signs off of posts everywhere I go caching? Nope.

 

I have one similar in a state park. I worked with a fellow cacher who works in the park. We got permission, and I placed a post with a sign that was actually needed by the park at the location (Authorized Parking Only). The hint is something like "Don't park too close".

 

All of the park staff know it is there, and love watching people look for it. They will even taunt finders by saying things like "you'll never find it". Quite funny.

 

I placed another this year in a similar vein in the same park. I won't spoil the hide tho.

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no tools were needed to remove the sign. it was held on with four small smooth nails, that simply pulled straight off, to reveal the cache in the hole behind the sign.

 

My whole point to posting this topic, was to ask whether we should need to remove signs off fence posts (with tools or otherwise) in order to find caches.... From what I can gather, the general concensus is a firm NO!

 

So, should this cache be allowed? as to all intents and purposes, encourages vandalism? What if people go around just randomly pulling signs off fenceposts, "just in case" a cache is behind one of them!

 

"Should this cache be allowed?"

 

Can't say for sure, because I don't know what permission may, or may not have been given, for the placement.

 

Should geocachers need to remove signs from fence posts to hunt for caches?

From what you say, it seems that in this particular case the sign was designed to be removed fairly easily to reveal the hidey hole. We don't know whether the cache owner drilled the hole in the fence post to hide the cache, or whether it was a "pre-drilled" hole, or whether the cache owner got full permission from the landowner to place the pole... etc etc etc... Too many imponderables.

 

When a reviewer reviews a cache placement they do not necessarily know exactly how a cache has been hidden at that location. If you have serious concerns about this one then you can either send a friendly email to the cache owner about it, stating why you think it's not a good way to hide a cache or, alternatively, contact the reviewer who published the cache explaining exactly how it's been hidden. If you can offer to send the reviewer some photographs then that is always helpful.

 

MrsB

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well what's the difference in this and pulling the cap of a chain link fence post off? I'm sure any Geocacher who has done atleast about 20 caches has pulled a fence post cap off or 2, I know I have

 

I didn't see my first fence post cap till #180 or so.

 

The OP is from our area in UK. We've done 600+ and I can't recall ever having found a cache by pulling a top off a fence post.

 

Hmmm

 

Does this mean I really ought to go out and create "The First Fence Post Cap in UK", like I did with "The first LPC in England?" Are we deprived of yet another exciting geocaching experience over here? :)

 

MrsB

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no tools were needed to remove the sign. it was held on with four small smooth nails, that simply pulled straight off, to reveal the cache in the hole behind the sign.

 

My whole point to posting this topic, was to ask whether we should need to remove signs off fence posts (with tools or otherwise) in order to find caches.... From what I can gather, the general concensus is a firm NO!

 

So, should this cache be allowed? as to all intents and purposes, encourages vandalism? What if people go around just randomly pulling signs off fenceposts, "just in case" a cache is behind one of them!

So, this sign just slipped out easily on its smooth nails (and presumably oversized nail holes)? Much easier than a real sign could be pulled off? It was obvious once you tugged a little bit that it wasn't a real sign? If so, then I personally have no problem with the sign itself. There may be issues surrounding the drilling of holes in the fence post, depending on who owned it and/or who gave permission. (essentially, I guess I'm agreeing with Mrs B.)
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Perhaps none, other than word choice of "due to having to pull signs off fenceposts???".

 

To me, removing and pulling are two different animals. Maybe I just read into the posting wrong, but then maybe not. :)

'Pulling' is a subset of 'removing'. It is a method of removal. It is, in fact, more descriptive than 'removing'.

 

If the CO obtained permission from the property owner there is no problem.

 

I have seen signs placed with the primary purpose of hiding a cache. Any information on the sign was part of the camouflage.

Oh but there IS a problem.

 

Unless there is wording in the CO's descriptive information OR that upon visual inspection by a finder that the cache container is obviously out of place or somehow an unnatural part of its surroundings, the stage is set for finders to inadvertently damage or vandalize the location. ...

Did you not read the previous posts? The sign was completely out of place for the location.

 

well what's the difference in this and pulling the cap of a chain link fence post off? I'm sure any Geocacher who has done atleast about 20 caches has pulled a fence post cap off or 2, I know I have
I didn't see my first fence post cap till #180 or so.
The OP is from our area in UK. We've done 600+ and I can't recall ever having found a cache by pulling a top off a fence post.

 

Hmmm

 

Does this mean I really ought to go out and create "The First Fence Post Cap in UK", like I did with "The first LPC in England?" Are we deprived of yet another exciting geocaching experience over here? :)

You owe it to your countrymen to hide one. Edited by sbell111
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