Coords and Hides

[+tango501]

If you hide a cache how close do you set your coords?

I am curious to see reaction here

[+ventura_kids]

Make them EXACT. One or two foot error is ok.

[+Roland_oso]

It really depends on the hide.

If the hide is about the destination, scenic view or a point of interest, it should be as close as possible.

 

If the hide is about the hide/container of an “In Plain Sight” cache or stage, I see nothing wrong with taking a waypoint 10 or 15 feet away from the cache/stage.

[+fizzymagic]

If the hide is about the hide/container of an “In Plain Sight” cache or stage, I see nothing wrong with taking a waypoint 10 or 15 feet away from the cache/stage.

Pretty much everyone else does.

 

It's weird; until the last few months, this topic never came up on the forums. The answer is so obvious that nobody questioned it. But suddenly a substantial number of of people think it's OK to post intentionally bad coords for hides. What's up with that?

[+niraD]

But suddenly a substantial number of of people think it's OK to post intentionally bad coords for hides. What's up with that?

Go figure. I post the best coordinates I can get.

 

And IMHO, the smaller the cache, the more important it is for the coordinates to be as exact as possible. The higher the difficulty, the more important it is for the coordinates to be as exact as possible. I've got a lot of respect for the 4-star caches that you can't see, even when the GPSr arrow is pointing right at them.

[+Chrysalides]

I post the best coordinates I can get.

Ditto.

[+Skyjuggler]

I must admit... I'm amazed! I'd never have thought it okay to post soft co-ords... Surely it's kinda the point of the game.

 

Without it, you may as well just have a cache page that says, "Down two blocks, turn right, it somewhere along the fence..."

[+Chrysalides]

Without it, you may as well just have a cache page that says, "Down two blocks, turn right, it somewhere along the fence..."

There is. It's called a "letterbox hybrid"

[Motorcycle_Mama]

It really depends on the hide.

If the hide is about the destination, scenic view or a point of interest, it should be as close as possible.

 

If the hide is about the hide/container of an “In Plain Sight” cache or stage, I see nothing wrong with taking a waypoint 10 or 15 feet away from the cache/stage.

Cache coordinates should be posted as close as possible for ALL Traditional Caches. Intentionally posting "soft" coordinates in an incorrect procedure.

[+Roland_oso]

I knew I was going to get this response to my post.

 

When I say “In Plain Sight” I mean that the stage or cache is totally visible.

 

Here is an example of a multi I have that is based on characters in some of Stephen King’s book.

 

The cache is called "Low Men in Yellow Coats". In the books these are shady characters that operate on the fringes of our reality and an alternate reality. They communicate in our world thru various means like hopscotch markings on side walks and lost pet posters.

 

My cache is a 3 stage multi where the first stage coords are dead on and is a reflector mounted to a railing. The second stage is located near a 90 degree turn on a low traffic road. It’s a lost pet poster and the numbers to call if you find the pet are the coords to the final. The poster can be seen in Street View on the Google. Look here the coords were taken inbetween the 2 black and yellow arrow signs.

 

The turn in the road has about 20 or so small post with 2 or 3 reflectors each. I took my coords about 15’ away from the telephone pole that the pet poster is attached to. The poster is facing towards GZ and is plainly visible and readable from 15’ not to mention that it’s laminated, so it really stands out.

 

Another case in point is one of mine that is now archived due to the area being redeveloped. “2,259,040” was located at an old abandoned putt-putt golf course. There were several light fixtures located around the course. I took a piece of PVC and made it look like a fluorescent light tube and placed it in the fixture after I made sure that it was not live of course. There was nothing else close to the fixture other than the golf hole that the light fixture once illuminated. I think I took my coords for that one at the cup for that hole about 5’ away from the light pole. The cache could be seen from 300’ away if you knew what you were looking for. The cache title “2,259,040” is the patent number for the fluorescent tube.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Roland_oso

[+Team Cotati]

I knew I was going to get this response to my post.

 

When I say “In Plain Sight” I mean that the stage or cache is totally visible.

 

Here is an example of a multi I have that is based on characters in some of Stephen King’s book.

 

The cache is called "Low Men in Yellow Coats". In the books these are shady characters that operate on the fringes of our reality and an alternate reality. They communicate in our world thru various means like hopscotch markings on side walks and lost pet posters.

 

My cache is a 3 stage multi where the first stage coords are dead on and is a reflector mounted to a railing. The second stage is located near a 90 degree turn on a low traffic road. It’s a lost pet poster and the numbers to call if you find the pet are the coords to the final.

 

The turn in the road has about 20 or so small post with 2 or 3 reflectors each. I took my coords about 15’ away from the telephone pole that the pet poster is attached to. The poster is facing towards GZ and is plainly visible and readable from 15’ not to mention that it’s laminated, so it really stands out.

 

Another case in point is one of mine that is now archived due to the area being redeveloped. “2,259,040” was located at an old abandoned putt-putt golf course. There were several light fixtures located around the course. I took a piece of PVC and made it look like a fluorescent light tube and placed it in the fixture after I made sure that it was not live of course. There was nothing else close to the fixture other than the golf hole that the light fixture once illuminated. I think I took my coords for that one at the cup for that hole about 5’ away from the light pole. The cache could be seen from 300’ away if you knew what you were looking for. The cache title “2,259,040” is the patent number for the fluorescent tube.

 

I'm curious as to who you contacted for permission to hide the cache? These 'abandoned' locations are always a puzzlement to me.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Team Cotati

[Skippermark]

If you hide a cache how close do you set your coords?

I am curious to see reaction here

I try to get them as accurate as possible, though I know people that are happy posting coords that are off to add "difficulty" to the hide.

 

Bad coords don't make a cache difficult. They just make people look in the wrong spot.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Skippermark

[Skippermark]

It's weird; until the last few months, this topic never came up on the forums. The answer is so obvious that nobody questioned it. But suddenly a substantial number of of people think it's OK to post intentionally bad coords for hides. What's up with that?

We were FTF on a cache awhile back and the coords were 85 feet off. It was the person's first hide, so we thought maybe they didn't get the coords quite right. I didn't say anything, but the others I was with posted a note in their logs saying their GPS had them 85 feet away from where we found the cache.

 

The owner wrote back and posted a note to the page, saying they intentionally made the coords a little off so the cache was partially a GPS find and partially a searching find. I don't get that.

[+CTYankee9]

Almost all of my hides are traditional and generally that is what I search for. I try to have my coords as accurate as possible when placing a hide, taking into consideration the distance error of my GPS that of the searcher's GPS as well as any signal blockers {overhead cover, walls}. With that all added up it could be 30' or more of possible softness even when listing the coords exactly as shown on your GPS. If I want to make the hide more difficult, I try to be more innovative with the cammo of the container, not fudging the listed coords.

[+Roland_oso]

I'm curious as to who you contacted for permission to hide the cache? These 'abandoned' locations are always a puzzlement to me.

 

That would have been the land owner at the time the cache was hidden.

[GOF and Bacall]

I knew I was going to get this response to my post.

 

When I say “In Plain Sight” I mean that the stage or cache is totally visible.

 

Here is an example of a multi I have that is based on characters in some of Stephen King’s book.

 

The cache is called "Low Men in Yellow Coats". In the books these are shady characters that operate on the fringes of our reality and an alternate reality. They communicate in our world thru various means like hopscotch markings on side walks and lost pet posters.

 

My cache is a 3 stage multi where the first stage coords are dead on and is a reflector mounted to a railing. The second stage is located near a 90 degree turn on a low traffic road. It’s a lost pet poster and the numbers to call if you find the pet are the coords to the final. The poster can be seen in Street View on the Google. Look here the coords were taken inbetween the 2 black and yellow arrow signs.

 

The turn in the road has about 20 or so small post with 2 or 3 reflectors each. I took my coords about 15’ away from the telephone pole that the pet poster is attached to. The poster is facing towards GZ and is plainly visible and readable from 15’ not to mention that it’s laminated, so it really stands out.

 

Another case in point is one of mine that is now archived due to the area being redeveloped. “2,259,040” was located at an old abandoned putt-putt golf course. There were several light fixtures located around the course. I took a piece of PVC and made it look like a fluorescent light tube and placed it in the fixture after I made sure that it was not live of course. There was nothing else close to the fixture other than the golf hole that the light fixture once illuminated. I think I took my coords for that one at the cup for that hole about 5’ away from the light pole. The cache could be seen from 300’ away if you knew what you were looking for. The cache title “2,259,040” is the patent number for the fluorescent tube.

Soft coords are not clever. You do this just to make people look on the back of the signs instead of on the pole? With the error that is inherent in consumer GPS receivers you can have people looking as far as 40 or 50 feet from your cache. I'd put your hides on my ignore list.

[+Roland_oso]

I'd put your hides on my ignore list.

 

It's happened, but word of mouth usually gets folks to un-ignore them. So be it, not eveyone has to find my caches.

[+Lakebum]

The caches I have seen with the coords intentionally soft are usually placed by newer or inexperienced cachers. Cachers who have not been frustrated by a simple cache that is not where it is supposed to be.

 

After you have burned by this a couple times you will grow to hate it.

[CoyoteRed]

I try to have the coords as close as possible.

 

I use a modified (read: user upgraded with no help from the manufacturer, thankyouverymuch) Magellan SporTrak Pro. A simple procedure for averaging gets very repeatable readings: ±0.001 minutes. That's about an arm's span circle.

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

Intentionally bad coords goes against the spirit of geocaching; in fact geocaching only came about once our GPSrs had the ability for precision. I don't mind difficult hides, but don't hide a cache in one spot and take me to another spot - that's not geocaching.

[+briansnat]

As others here have said I take my reading at the cache site so they are as accurate as

they can be.

 

The only exception is that if I can't get a good sat lock at the cache site I may move a short distance away and take my reading there if conditions are better. I figure coords that are taken 20 feet away from the cache with an EPE of 10 -15 feet are better off than coords marked at the cache site with an EPE of 60+ or severe signal bounce.

 

This hasn't been an issue in recent years with newer GPS units, but it was something I encountered from time to time with the older pre high sensitivity receiver units.

[+Castle Mischief]

Make them EXACT. One or two foot error is ok.

 

I want this guy's GPSr!

 

EDIT: To be clear- I can't think of a unit available to the pubic at large that will give you 1-2 foot accuracy.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Castle Mischief

[+Team Cotati]

The caches I have seen with the coords intentionally soft are usually placed by newer or inexperienced cachers. Cachers who have not been frustrated by a simple cache that is not where it is supposed to be.

 

After you have burned by this a couple times you will grow to hate it.

 

To my knowledge, I have been "burned by this" zero times.

 

I still seriously dislike the concept. The whole idea is beyond silly.

[+Team Cotati]

I'm curious as to who you contacted for permission to hide the cache? These 'abandoned' locations are always a puzzlement to me.

 

That would have been the land owner at the time the cache was hidden.

 

Right, got it. Thank you.

[+Team Cotati]

If you hide a cache how close do you set your coords?

I am curious to see reaction here

 

We usually take two readings, sometimes three.

 

Average the two closest and that's it.

[+Markwell]

I want this guy's GPSr!

[knowschad]

 

You as the owner of the cache must visit the site and obtain the coordinates with a GPS. GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

 

Note the use of the word, "accurate".

 

With every hider I know, with one major exception, coordinate accuraccy is a matter of personal pride.

[+Okiebryan]

I want this guy's GPSr!

 

Er.... That's not a GPS. That is a total station. 100% optics, no GPS involved.

[+Roland_oso]

If I had hidden this container, you bet your bippy I would have posted soft coords, maybe even as far as 50' in a case such as this. I would have taken great care the offset would have been to the parking lot side of the container, but other than that, why not?

 

[knowschad]

If I had hidden this container, you bet your bippy I would have posted soft coords, maybe even as far as 50' in a case such as this. I would have taken great care the offset would have been to the parking lot side of the container, but other than that, why not?

 

Actually, in this one particular instance, I think soft coords would be hilarious! I can imagine all the logs along the lines of "coords were a bit loose, but my geosense paid off in the long run!"

[+Roland_oso]

Actually, in this one particular instance, I think soft coords would be hilarious! I can imagine all the logs along the lines of "coords were a bit loose, but my geosense paid off in the long run!"

 

My caches I'm talking about are not quite this obvious, but in the same general spirit. Easily seen and/or read from the spot I marked and provided.

 

I do take great care on taking accurate coords for all the rest of my waypoints.

[+Team Cotati]

If I had hidden this container, you bet your bippy I would have posted soft coords, maybe even as far as 50' in a case such as this. I would have taken great care the offset would have been to the parking lot side of the container, but other than that, why not?

 

 

Do you have the GCXXX number for that cache? I'd bet that there are some very interesting and entertaining logs posted for it. Or the hider's GC name?

Edited October 16, 2009 by Team Cotati

[+Team Cotati]

 

You as the owner of the cache must visit the site and obtain the coordinates with a GPS. GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

 

Note the use of the word, "accurate".

 

With every hider I know, with one major exception, coordinate accuraccy is a matter of personal pride.

 

Not that you know me, but you can minus 2 on that.

[+Roland_oso]

A Cool Cache by Dale n Barb GC15RQB

 

A Cool Cache by Dale n Barb GC15RQB

 

I saw it today on another thread about largest containers.

[+Avernar]

Bad coords don't make a cache difficult. They just make people look in the wrong spot.

Which almost always leads to the area getting trashed (vegetation trampled, sprinkler heads damaged, etc).

[+tango501]

I was just curious about this topic as I have seen coords on some peoples hides 30+ feet off recently

I have a back up GPSr and wasnt sure if my unit was going bad, but they match

 

for my hides I do take multiple readings to ensure accuracy

[+KBI]

If the hide is about the hide/container of an “In Plain Sight” cache or stage, I see nothing wrong with taking a waypoint 10 or 15 feet away from the cache/stage.

Pretty much everyone else does.

 

It's weird; until the last few months, this topic never came up on the forums. The answer is so obvious that nobody questioned it. But suddenly a substantial number of of people think it's OK to post intentionally bad coords for hides. What's up with that?

Bad coords don't make a cache difficult. They just make people look in the wrong spot.

Which almost always leads to the area getting trashed (vegetation trampled, sprinkler heads damaged, etc).

I agree. This is one of those issues where simply trying to be different is clearly against the published description of how this hobby is supposed to work, and can screw up the game.

[+KBI]

The only exception is that if I can't get a good sat lock at the cache site I may move a short distance away and take my reading there if conditions are better. I figure coords that are taken 20 feet away from the cache with an EPE of 10 -15 feet are better off than coords marked at the cache site with an EPE of 60+ or severe signal bounce.

 

This hasn't been an issue in recent years with newer GPS units, but it was something I encountered from time to time with the older pre high sensitivity receiver units.

There is an easy way to work around this.

 

For the most part, depending on where you are on the planet, every .001 degree of difference represents about 6 feet. (That’s always true with latitude, and it works well with longitude unless you are near the higher latitudes; the number starts at about six feet at the equator and shrinks to zero at the poles.)

 

If you have to step a little ways away from the container to get a good signal, simply work the extrapolation to estimate what the coords would be at the cache container. If ground zero is about 24 feet north of your observed waypoint, for example, just add .004 to the observed latitude.

[+KBI]

You as the owner of the cache must visit the site and obtain the coordinates with a GPS. GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

Note the use of the word, "accurate".

 

With every hider I know, with one major exception, coordinate accuraccy is a matter of personal pride.

I agree with you, but just to clarify:

 

There is a big difference between "accuracy" and "precision." Some folks use the words interchangably, but they are not interchangeable.

 

Coordinates taken at the exact location of the cache container which have a high estimated equipment error are accurate but imprecise. This is generally accepted as one of the inherent challenges of the hobby.

 

On the other hand, coordinates which have a low degree of equipment error, but that are intentionally taken at a point well away from the cache location, are precise but inaccurate. This is almost universally frowned upon, and in my case it irritates the snot out of me.

 

Like you, I take pride in the accuracy of the coordinates I publish.

 

I also make them as precise as I can.

[knowschad]

 

You as the owner of the cache must visit the site and obtain the coordinates with a GPS. GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

 

Note the use of the word, "accurate".

 

With every hider I know, with one major exception two major exceptions, coordinate accuraccy is a matter of personal pride.

 

Not that you know me, but you can minus 2 on that.

Thanks for the head's-up. As you can see, I have since updated my count to include you. Now, please.... put a shirt on!

Edited October 16, 2009 by knowschad

[+Okiebryan]

Back in August, I used surveyor grade static GPS (and Rapid-static OPUS for the post processing) to set the point for the accuracy challenge for last weekend's Fall Fest at Robbers Cave State Park near Wilburton, OK. I occupied the point for almost 2 hours.

 

It was in a valley surrounded by high hills and lots of trees, but the immediate area was pretty open from about 25-30 degrees on up.

 

We had about 50 participants. They each set a numbered pin flag at the position they were given from my earlier work. When it was over, I exposed the point I had set and we measured to the pin flags.

 

The nearest contestant was 1.36' and the furthest was 15 something feet. Just from looking at the cloud of pinflags, I'd guess that the statistical average was something like 6-7 feet.

 

The point of this? Do the best you can to get your coords as tight as conditions permit. The "error" that everyone quotes as up to 30' really is not that high. Average, average, average.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Okiebryan

[+Avernar]

I agree. This is one of those issues where simply trying to be different is clearly against the published description of how this hobby is supposed to work, and can screw up the game.

Fortunately inaccurate coordinates are frowned upon in my neck of the woods. The first few finders are quick to post updated coordinates in their logs.

[+niraD]

We were FTF on a cache awhile back and the coords were 85 feet off. It was the person's first hide, so we thought maybe they didn't get the coords quite right. I didn't say anything, but the others I was with posted a note in their logs saying their GPS had them 85 feet away from where we found the cache.

With a difference of 85', I would have posted my coordinates in my log for a traditional cache. For a puzzle or multi-cache, I would have posted the offset between my solved coordinates and where I found the cache.

 

The owner wrote back and posted a note to the page, saying they intentionally made the coords a little off so the cache was partially a GPS find and partially a searching find. I don't get that.

I don't get it either. As others have said, that just leads to people searching (and possibly damaging) the area around the posted coordinates. I would have referred the CO to the guidelines, where it states "the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions." (emphasis mine)

[knowschad]

Check out this cache owner's log... http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...82-a31a5707ae61

 

I know one cacher who actually had his log deleted on this cache because he posted better coordinates on his log!

[+Avernar]

I don't get it either. As others have said, that just leads to people searching (and possibly damaging) the area around the posted coordinates. I would have referred the CO to the guidelines, where it states "the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions." (emphasis mine)

There is always an exception: Accuracy? Who needs it.

[+Avernar]

Check out this cache owner's log... http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...82-a31a5707ae61

 

I know one cacher who actually had his log deleted on this cache because he posted better coordinates on his log!

I don't have a problem with the first one. If that's the best coordinates you can get in that area because of environmental factors (signal reflections, atmospheric conditions, heavy cover) then what's there to complain about? I actually think that's a part of the game. Some places you get good GPS accuracy, some you don't. The fact that the owner likes to place caches in those area is irrelevant.

 

The second one I'd contact a reviewer about.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Intentionally bad coords goes against the spirit of geocaching; in fact geocaching only came about once our GPSrs had the ability for precision. I don't mind difficult hides, but don't hide a cache in one spot and take me to another spot - that's not geocaching.

 

Here's what the guidelines say:

 

Step 3 - Placing Your Cache

 

Once you arrive at the location of your hide, it is critical to obtain accurate GPS coordinates. This is the very heart of the activity, after all.

 

Maybe that needs to be expanded a bit to specifically mention that using intentionally bad (soft) coordinates goes against the spirit of geocaching.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Check out this cache owner's log... http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...82-a31a5707ae61

 

I know one cacher who actually had his log deleted on this cache because he posted better coordinates on his log!

 

Interesting. I took a look at the logs on that one and noticed that someone quoted a post I wrote in a similar thread here from awhile back. At least they attributed the quote to me.

[knowschad]

Check out this cache owner's log... http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...82-a31a5707ae61

 

I know one cacher who actually had his log deleted on this cache because he posted better coordinates on his log!

I don't have a problem with the first one. If that's the best coordinates you can get in that area because of environmental factors (signal reflections, atmospheric conditions, heavy cover) then what's there to complain about? I actually think that's a part of the game. Some places you get good GPS accuracy, some you don't. The fact that the owner likes to place caches in those area is irrelevant.

 

The second one I'd contact a reviewer about.

The cacher that had his log deleted simply relogged under a sock puppet account, but yes, Groundspeak would have reinstated his find as well, I'm sure. That happened on the cache that I posted the link to.

 

The cache is in a wide-open park. The cache owner is simply making excuses for his bad coordinates. There is no "bounce" there. His claims are ridiculous.

[+Avernar]

The cacher that had his log deleted simply relogged under a sock puppet account, but yes, Groundspeak would have reinstated his find as well, I'm sure. That happened on the cache that I posted the link to.

 

The cache is in a wide-open park. The cache owner is simply making excuses for his bad coordinates. There is no "bounce" there. His claims are ridiculous.

Whoops. Didn't notice that both were for the same cache (I need more coffee). I agree that he's making excuses then.