conflict of rules

[+SOLONM]

I don't know if anyone has spoken to this issue before. I don't follow forums.

Groundspeak says this: Geocaching is a high-tech treasure hunting game played throughout the world by adventure seekers equipped with GPS devices. The basic idea is to locate hidden containers, called geocaches, outdoors and then share your experiences online. Geocaching is enjoyed by people from all age groups, with a strong sense of community and support for the environment.

And yet at the same time if we as finders have what may be construed by a CO as negative comments, the CO is able to delete logs if they don't like them???

HMMM ....so where is the sharing here? Can I only share if it was a thanks for bringing me here moment? What if it was not? Does this mean the CO can delete my log just because it was less than complimentary? What if the hunt lead me to a place that concerned me for what ever reason.......don't I as a finder have a right to share that concern with other future finders?

My concerns might be about safety..........or environmental issues....as a finder/seeker I think my comments on a log are important. As a hider, I welcome the input of those who seek my caches.

[+Scubasonic]

There are always exceptions to the rule.

 

ScubaSonic

[+Chrysalides]

I don't know if anyone has spoken to this issue before. I don't follow forums.

Oh, only about every other week

 

But to give you a summary, it's generally considered impolite to delete a log unless it (1) contains inappropriate language or (2) contains spoilers. For (2) an e-mail should be sent to the logger asking them to remove the spoiler first.

 

If you think that your log is deleted unfairly, you can appeal to Groundspeak, or you can re-log with a terse "TFTC".

[+SOLONM]

I don't know if anyone has spoken to this issue before. I don't follow forums.

Oh, only about every other week

 

But to give you a summary, it's generally considered impolite to delete a log unless it (1) contains inappropriate language or (2) contains spoilers. For (2) an e-mail should be sent to the logger asking them to remove the spoiler first.

 

If you think that your log is deleted unfairly, you can appeal to Groundspeak, or you can re-log with a terse "TFTC".

 

done that & have all the t-s***s & bumper stickers.....but that is not what my post is all about.

so where is the sharing here? Can I only share if it was a thanks for bringing me here moment? What if it was not? Does this mean the CO can delete my log just because it was less than complimentary? What if the hunt lead me to a place that concerned me for what ever reason.......don't I as a finder have a right to share that concern with other future finders?

My concerns might be about safety..........or environmental issues....as a finder/seeker I think my comments on a log are important. As a hider, I welcome the input of those who seek my caches.

[+tozainamboku]

Once upon a time in galaxy far far away, geocaching had a strong sense of community and many shared values among the few dozen or so people who participated. People wrote nice logs about their experiences finding caches and if they had concerns they expressed them in a nice way to the cache owner whom they either knew or a least felt a camaraderie with because they were so few geocachers. And cache owners accepted these concerns. Everyone was just learning about geocaching and was interested in what other people though about their hides and how they could be improved.

 

As more and more people began to geocache, a small minority began to use the logs to express a sense of entitlement or incredulity that someone would hide a cache that the finder thought was lame or irresponsible. Sometimes there were personal attacks on the hiders and sometimes even foul language was used. Groundspeak decided that perhaps the best way to keep the sense of community was to allow cache owners to delete logs that were off-topic. If a cache owner were to abuse this privilege and delete logs for no good reason or simply because they didn't like what the logger had to say, Groundspeak was able to reinstate the log and if the cache owner continued to be stubborn about the log, Groundspeak could take further action. Most of the time however the logger was able to work with the cache owner and express what he had to say in a way that wasn't offensive to the cache owner. In addition, if a cache was causing a major problem and was in violation of the guidelines for listing a cache on Geocaching.com, Groundspeak added the ability to post a Should Be Archived (SBA) log. Now called a Needs Archive, this log would cause a notification to be sent to the volunteer cache reviewers who could investigate and see if something needed to be done. Now, it does happen that some cache owners may delete a Found It log if that person also post a Needs Archive. One argument that is sometimes made is that if you think this cache is in violation of the guidelines and needs to be archived, why did you claim a find on it? Still in order to avoid a vindictive cache owner, one can contact the reviewer by email and have them look at the cache without having to post something that may tick off a cache owner.

 

There are now so many geocachers that perhaps we have lost the sense of community. The best thing to do is to be polite in your logs. Don't assume things about the cache. The cache owner may have permission to set up a cache that appears to you to violate some guideline. The cache owner may be aware that what you see as an environmental issue, was a pre-existing condition at the cache site. There are no particular guidelines for safety. The general disclaimer is that geocaching is an outdoor activity that involves certain risks. Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache. It is pointless to argue with cache owner about some danger in his cache that he already knows about. You may want to point out something you think he missed or express some concerns to warn other seekers if the cache owner hasn't done so already. In many cases it is better to express concerns to a cache owner privately rather than use the cache logs. If you want to use the cache logs to debate the merits of cache you risk offending a cache owner. While they shouldn't delete your log for doing so, they have this capability. In the end you will probably wind up rewording you log to be acceptable to the owner, so perhaps is better to just write a neutral log and to contact the owner privately. If the problem needs immediate attention or the cache owner seems to ignore your concerns, post a Needs Archive or contact a reviewer.

[+Chrysalides]

so where is the sharing here? Can I only share if it was a thanks for bringing me here moment? What if it was not? Does this mean the CO can delete my log just because it was less than complimentary? What if the hunt lead me to a place that concerned me for what ever reason.......don't I as a finder have a right to share that concern with other future finders?

My concerns might be about safety..........or environmental issues....as a finder/seeker I think my comments on a log are important. As a hider, I welcome the input of those who seek my caches.

My point is that the CO is not allowed to nuke a log just because they don't care for it.

 

And as for expressing concern, a lot of it is in how you express it. "Seekers may want to watch out for cars as this is near a busy streets" is one way of putting it. "What moron in his right mind hides a cache in this location? Are you trying to get people killed" is the other extreme. Of course, there are cache owners who are extremely thin skinned. If they don't want you to share with them any negative aspects of their hide, you can insist on shoving it down their throats anyway by appealing to Groundspeak, or shrug it off.

[+Indotguy]

Geocaching is an activity played by many, many people with many, many differing opinions and ideas. Not everyone is going to play it the same. Some will play it more fair than others and some will be jerks. Such is life. If you don't like the rules of the game don't play.

[+simpjkee]

Any cacher is more than welcome to post any opinion regarding the cache they have. Negative, Positive, whatever, I just want to read something!

 

If someone deleted my find because they didn't like my opinion, I'd appeal to Groundspeak or just relog as "sl"........I think "TFTC" gives them too much credit.

[Clan Riffster]

I'm wondering what the Paul Harvey version is?

[+Isonzo Karst]

conflict of rules is your topic title. And the meat of your post is here

 

And yet at the same time if we as finders have what may be construed by a CO as negative comments, the CO is able to delete logs if they don't like them???

 

I suggest you read the rule here:

 

Logging of All Physical Caches

 

There's no conflict. If your log has been deleted and you've found the cache and signed the log, you should ask the cache owner to contact a reviewer to restore the log. Link to the guideline in your email. If the cache owner gets the log restored (they cannot do this themselves) fine. If not, you can email contact@geocaching.com and ask them to do it. This may take a while, those folks handle a lot of email.

 

Please be polite in your logs, especially if you feel the need to criticize something about the cache or the location.

[GOF and Bacall]

I'm wondering what the Paul Harvey version is?

 

What he said.

[+GIDEON-X]

I'm wondering what the Paul Harvey version is?

 

What he said.

"RULES" = GUIDELINES........and that's the rest of the story

[+sbell111]

conflict of rules is your topic title. And the meat of your post is here

 

And yet at the same time if we as finders have what may be construed by a CO as negative comments, the CO is able to delete logs if they don't like them???

 

I suggest you read the rule here:

 

Logging of All Physical Caches

 

There's no conflict. If your log has been deleted and you've found the cache and signed the log, you should ask the cache owner to contact a reviewer to restore the log. Link to the guideline in your email. If the cache owner gets the log restored (they cannot do this themselves) fine. If not, you can email contact@geocaching.com and ask them to do it. This may take a while, those folks handle a lot of email.

 

Please be polite in your logs, especially if you feel the need to criticize something about the cache or the location.

At that point, the cache finder and the cache owner would be in agreement that the log should be returned. If this is the case, the finder could simply relog the cache, rather than waste the Reviewers time with this issue.

[GOF and Bacall]

I'm wondering what the Paul Harvey version is?

 

What he said.

"RULES" = GUIDELINES........and that's the rest of the story

 

I doubt that that is the whole story. What set the OP on this quest for an understanding of the rules/guideline/whatever?

[+StarBrand]

You can express your feelings about a a cache without being crass or cruel. If you have been generally polite and truthful, there is no reason your log should have been deleted (actually if you made the find - that should be suffcient reason for no delete). If it happens, contact the folks up at HQ.

[+Keith Watson]

Unless someone is posting a spoiler, double find, or using bag language, I would not delete a find. I may send them an email if they have not met the required logging requirement. There are people out there that if you post anything negative, including constructively negative comments, they take it personally and will delete it. Maybe they see this as a personal attack, or it casts them in less of a light than they think they should be.

 

Sometimes the finder will see themselves as self appointed cache police and make claims in their log or post a needs archived when a simple email to the cache owner could straighten it out.

 

Before deleting a log, think to your self, is it worth the hustle the poster is going to create because you whacked their log?

 

If your log has been deleted, think about what you may have put in there that got it deleted.

[+Ms.Scrabbler]

It was strongly suggested by a CO to change my post or he would delete it, I did change it but left some of the negative in it.

 

I was visiting my son and he and his family joined me for a hunt in a park. It was a Sunday morning and we 1st noticed a few cars/trucks parked and what we could only guess were customers walking up to them and quickly walking away.

 

Next we were close to GZ, I was showing them the how light pole skirts lift, no cache under there BUT zip-lock baggies with new hypodermic needles and other other drug paraphernalia were there. (my son called the cops)

 

Then we had 2 homeless men approach us asking for money, had I been alone I would have totally freaked.

 

The write up for the cache said it was a family friendly park and my email to change my write up reiterated the family friendly park. It may be true for other times of the day but obviously not 100% of the time.

 

BTW - I ended up with a DNF even though we really looked for it!

[+tozainamboku]

conflict of rules is your topic title. And the meat of your post is here

 

And yet at the same time if we as finders have what may be construed by a CO as negative comments, the CO is able to delete logs if they don't like them???

 

I suggest you read the rule here:

 

Logging of All Physical Caches

 

There's no conflict. If your log has been deleted and you've found the cache and signed the log, you should ask the cache owner to contact a reviewer to restore the log. Link to the guideline in your email. If the cache owner gets the log restored (they cannot do this themselves) fine. If not, you can email contact@geocaching.com and ask them to do it. This may take a while, those folks handle a lot of email.

 

Please be polite in your logs, especially if you feel the need to criticize something about the cache or the location.

This is a misinterpretation (IMO) of the ALR guidelines. A cache owner can still delete logs that are bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements. Nobody would deny an owner can delete logs that contain spoilers, bad language, or spam. Signing the physical log is not free reign to write anything you want in a log. In general if you sign the physical log you are entitled to use a "Found It" online log to report your experiences finding this cache. You can not say whatever you like in the log. However, if your experiences finding the cache were not all positive, you certainly should be allowed to describe the issues. Just be aware the cache owner can delete your log, so it is best to say it in a way that doesn't come across as an attack on the cache owner. If a cache owner deletes your log, just re-log it in a form that is acceptable to the owner.

[+wimseyguy]

If you have issues with the location of a cache, you can simply post "thanks for sharing your special place with me. " That can have so many different meanings".

Edited October 8, 2009 by wimseyguy

[+Renegade Knight]

..Can I only share if it was a thanks for bringing me here moment?...

 

You can share whatever you want in whatever log you want in whatever way you want. There is nothing whatsoever stopping you from doing this.

 

Conversly you are doing this on someone elses cache page and they may or may not like what you had to say, how you had to say it, the poltics, venom, or tone of your log and they may chose to do something about it like ask you to change your log, or delete it.

 

Your freedom to express yourself and share doesn't excuse you from the consequeses of what you have shared. No matter how you do it the two go hand in hand. We all have to get along in the world. That means at times to get your point out there so it sticks you have to do it in a way that the person who's sponsoring your 'sharing' will allow to stand.

 

My logs vary all over the board. Every now and then someone say "WTF?" and I adjust my log accordintly. That's happned 3 or 4 times in 1000 caches. So unless you are a foul mouthed whiney butt who insistes in being a rude jerk when talking about a cache issue, you shouldn't have too much problem. Always factor in your audience.

[+SilentWolf]

Why not just send the CO a personal message or e-mail if you've got something "not nice" to say? No reason to trash up the logs in my opinion.

[+Ambrosia]

Once upon a time in galaxy far far away, geocaching had a strong sense of community and many shared values among the few dozen or so people who participated. People wrote nice logs about their experiences finding caches and if they had concerns they expressed them in a nice way to the cache owner whom they either knew or a least felt a camaraderie with because they were so few geocachers. And cache owners accepted these concerns. Everyone was just learning about geocaching and was interested in what other people though about their hides and how they could be improved.

 

Aw! That brings me back, thanks.

 

*wipes tear from eye*

 

[+ras_oscar]

When writing up a log, assume you are talking to the person next to you. Often the anonymity of an online relationships emboldens people to say things they would never say in person. That's also where road rage comes from.

[+Keith Watson]

When writing up a log, assume you are talking to the person next to you. Often the anonymity of an online relationships emboldens people to say things they would never say in person. That's also where road rage comes from.

 

My feelings exactly. By they way, how long have you been waiting to use the word emboldens?

[+L0ne.R]

Why not just send the CO a personal message or e-mail if you've got something "not nice" to say? No reason to trash up the logs in my opinion.

 

That's fine, but sometimes you want to let others know that there are concerns about the area. The trick is to say something "not nice" nicely, so the owner won't delete the log (thankfully that's a rare occurence) and you get to inform future finders.

[+Scubasonic]

I don't know if anyone has spoken to this issue before. I don't follow forums.

Oh, only about every other week

 

But to give you a summary, it's generally considered impolite to delete a log unless it (1) contains inappropriate language or (2) contains spoilers. For (2) an e-mail should be sent to the logger asking them to remove the spoiler first.

 

If you think that your log is deleted unfairly, you can appeal to Groundspeak, or you can re-log with a terse "TFTC".

 

done that & have all the t-s***s & bumper stickers.....but that is not what my post is all about.

so where is the sharing here? Can I only share if it was a thanks for bringing me here moment? What if it was not? Does this mean the CO can delete my log just because it was less than complimentary? What if the hunt lead me to a place that concerned me for what ever reason.......don't I as a finder have a right to share that concern with other future finders?

My concerns might be about safety..........or environmental issues....as a finder/seeker I think my comments on a log are important. As a hider, I welcome the input of those who seek my caches.

 

ScubaSonic

Edited October 8, 2009 by Scubasonic

[+ngrrfan]

sometimes you want to let others know that there are concerns about the area. The trick is to say something "not nice" nicely, so the owner won't delete the log (thankfully that's a rare occurence) and you get to inform future finders.

And that is why, IMHO, you make your log entry read like an adventure story.

 

"After braving the raging current of the stream and the giant anaconda, I fought my way through the wild underbrush dodging the restless natives."

 

Translation: "I had to cross a creek and saw a garter snake, then had to crawl through a bunch of bushes all the while trying to elude all the muggles in the area."

 

And a DNF is an even greater opportunity to write something fantastic.

[+zoltig]

Once upon a time in galaxy far far away, geocaching had a strong sense of community and many shared values among the few dozen or so people who participated. People wrote nice logs about their experiences finding caches and if they had concerns they expressed them in a nice way to the cache owner whom they either knew or a least felt a camaraderie with because they were so few geocachers. And cache owners accepted these concerns. Everyone was just learning about geocaching and was interested in what other people though about their hides and how they could be improved.

 

Aw! That brings me back, thanks.

 

*wipes tear from eye*

 

Indeed, Ambrosia! Indeed.

<sniff>

Hand me a tissue.

[+bittsen]

Once upon a time in galaxy far far away, geocaching had a strong sense of community and many shared values among the few dozen or so people who participated. People wrote nice logs about their experiences finding caches and if they had concerns they expressed them in a nice way to the cache owner whom they either knew or a least felt a camaraderie with because they were so few geocachers. And cache owners accepted these concerns. Everyone was just learning about geocaching and was interested in what other people though about their hides and how they could be improved.

 

As more and more people began to geocache, a small minority began to use the logs to express a sense of entitlement or incredulity that someone would hide a cache that the finder thought was lame or irresponsible. Sometimes there were personal attacks on the hiders and sometimes even foul language was used. Groundspeak decided that perhaps the best way to keep the sense of community was to allow cache owners to delete logs that were off-topic. If a cache owner were to abuse this privilege and delete logs for no good reason or simply because they didn't like what the logger had to say, Groundspeak was able to reinstate the log and if the cache owner continued to be stubborn about the log, Groundspeak could take further action. Most of the time however the logger was able to work with the cache owner and express what he had to say in a way that wasn't offensive to the cache owner. In addition, if a cache was causing a major problem and was in violation of the guidelines for listing a cache on Geocaching.com, Groundspeak added the ability to post a Should Be Archived (SBA) log. Now called a Needs Archive, this log would cause a notification to be sent to the volunteer cache reviewers who could investigate and see if something needed to be done. Now, it does happen that some cache owners may delete a Found It log if that person also post a Needs Archive. One argument that is sometimes made is that if you think this cache is in violation of the guidelines and needs to be archived, why did you claim a find on it? Still in order to avoid a vindictive cache owner, one can contact the reviewer by email and have them look at the cache without having to post something that may tick off a cache owner.

 

There are now so many geocachers that perhaps we have lost the sense of community. The best thing to do is to be polite in your logs. Don't assume things about the cache. The cache owner may have permission to set up a cache that appears to you to violate some guideline. The cache owner may be aware that what you see as an environmental issue, was a pre-existing condition at the cache site. There are no particular guidelines for safety. The general disclaimer is that geocaching is an outdoor activity that involves certain risks. Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache. It is pointless to argue with cache owner about some danger in his cache that he already knows about. You may want to point out something you think he missed or express some concerns to warn other seekers if the cache owner hasn't done so already. In many cases it is better to express concerns to a cache owner privately rather than use the cache logs. If you want to use the cache logs to debate the merits of cache you risk offending a cache owner. While they shouldn't delete your log for doing so, they have this capability. In the end you will probably wind up rewording you log to be acceptable to the owner, so perhaps is better to just write a neutral log and to contact the owner privately. If the problem needs immediate attention or the cache owner seems to ignore your concerns, post a Needs Archive or contact a reviewer.

 

Yeah!! Who let all the commoners in anyway?!

 

[+Sol seaker]

Once upon a time in galaxy far far away, geocaching had a strong sense of community and many shared values among the few dozen or so people who participated. People wrote nice logs about their experiences finding caches and if they had concerns they expressed them in a nice way to the cache owner whom they either knew or a least felt a camaraderie with because they were so few geocachers. And cache owners accepted these concerns. Everyone was just learning about geocaching and was interested in what other people though about their hides and how they could be improved.

 

etc.

 

This piece is one of the best Iv'e seen written.

This is really great stuff for new people to read.

thanks so much for writing it.

i wish this could be put on a page somewhere for everyone to read. Too few read the forums.

Maybe there should be a section of the resources pages set aside for stuff like this.

It would be great to have a good sense of the community and where it came from.

 

I too have been looking for that sharing community.

I have been trying to meet other geocachers, but no luck yet.

 

I have, though, left a couple critical logs I must admit.

But one the reviewer thanked me for leaving (it got action on moving the cache)

 

And the other was a DNF so they could delete away all day if they like. I haven't checked back.

 

One recent cache I could have left a less than kind log. Instead I did write an adventure story. It really was fun, although it almost killed me getting to this.

 

The cache owner wrote me and said he enjoyed my log and laughed his head off at it.

 

Well it involved a whole lot of pain on my part, but I'd just as soon people get a good laugh out of it anyway. I like a bit of adventure now and then anyway. After the pain subsides, the adventure and fun is what is left anyway.

[+Sol seaker]

 

Yeah!! Who let all the commoners in anyway?!

 

 

This from someone who has been a member for one whole year??

does that not make you one of those commoners?

 

(I am certainly a newbie here)

[+bittsen]

 

Yeah!! Who let all the commoners in anyway?!

 

 

This from someone who has been a member for one whole year??

does that not make you one of those commoners?

 

(I am certainly a newbie here)

 

I am, in fact, the most humble of humble commoners. I was speaking as to myself. One of those "commoners" who the elite meant to exclude.

I am better than none ~said in the most humble of tones~

 

[+Sol seaker]

 

I am, in fact, the most humble of humble commoners. I was speaking as to myself. One of those "commoners" who the elite meant to exclude.

I am better than none ~said in the most humble of tones~

 

 

Of course., I knew that's what you meant.

[+Castle Mischief]

I'd be interested to see what the log looked like that was deleted. So far it seems that a bunch of folks are assuming what was in the log and assuming the tone of the log without having seen it. I'm not implying that their presumption goes without some inkling of credulity, but all the same, this discussion on the whole would benefit from its presence.

 

 

 

Slight aside...

 

The ellipsis consists of three "dots" and should be used sparingly, least you cheapen the literary effect. Every time an ellipsis is used with more than three periods, a semicolon loses its doo-dangle.

[+Ambrosia]

Once upon a time in galaxy far far away, geocaching had a strong sense of community and many shared values among the few dozen or so people who participated. People wrote nice logs about their experiences finding caches and if they had concerns they expressed them in a nice way to the cache owner whom they either knew or a least felt a camaraderie with because they were so few geocachers. And cache owners accepted these concerns. Everyone was just learning about geocaching and was interested in what other people though about their hides and how they could be improved.

 

Aw! That brings me back, thanks.

 

*wipes tear from eye*

 

Indeed, Ambrosia! Indeed.

<sniff>

Hand me a tissue.

 

Here ya go.

 

*hands zoltig a tissue*

 

Aah, the good ol' days. Why, I remember back when we had to go up hill both ways to get a cache. The snow would be above our heads, and we didn't have any shoes. But we trudged on anyways. Up mountains, down valleys, fording rivers, dodging alligators, swatting mosquitos. Nobody handed us those caches on a platter, we had to bleed and sweat to get those big suckers. Why, getting a cache was an experience. Sometimes we laughed, sometimes we cried. But we always knew that we had gone after a cache. Our logs were long and full of tales of adventure. You young 'uns just don't know how easy you have it. But...we were happy. And we wouldn't have changed a thing.

 

Good times, good times.

[+geodarts]

I try to be a positive person, but I have felt it important to point out that a cache was behind barbed wire that was posted with a "no trespassing sign" so that future visitors could decide whether they wanted to get the cache before driving a long distance to get there. And I have suggested that cache owners not place containers in trees affected by Sudden Oak Death (lest cachers inadvertently carry the pathogens to other areas). I have never had such a log deleted, but I also only have had one cache owner act upon my comments. So I guess I can count myself lucky -- and I am glad to live in an area where the community aspect of caching is important to some of us.

[+SOLONM]

I'd be interested to see what the log looked like that was deleted. So far it seems that a bunch of folks are assuming what was in the log and assuming the tone of the log without having seen it. I'm not implying that their presumption goes without some inkling of credulity, but all the same, this discussion on the whole would benefit from its presence.

 

 

 

There is no log in question. For the most part I endeavor to be as positive as possible in my logs. However I won't lie and post a happy "thanks for the great cache etc.".

My intent of the thread was to explore why relevant logs (even if they are not flattering) can be deleted by a CO just because they don't like the finder's tone, or perhaps their dog died that morning.....or maybe they are in need of serious anger management therapy.

If we as finders are empowered to "share our experiences", then hiders should be equally prepared to expect less than complimentary logs.

I absolutely support sending a PM to a CO especially if there is a mistake, misunderstanding of the rules for cache placement & so on, especially on the part of a Newbie. Even the "old hands" make mistakes too.

I don't see the validity of a CO being able to delete a log simply because they didn't like what they read. Sometimes the truth is hard to face!!

[+GeePa]

There is no log in question. For the most part I endeavor to be as positive as possible in my logs. However I won't lie and post a happy "thanks for the great cache etc.".

My intent of the thread was to explore why relevant logs (even if they are not flattering) can be deleted by a CO just because they don't like the finder's tone, or perhaps their dog died that morning.....or maybe they are in need of serious anger management therapy.

If we as finders are empowered to "share our experiences", then hiders should be equally prepared to expect less than complimentary logs.

I absolutely support sending a PM to a CO especially if there is a mistake, misunderstanding of the rules for cache placement & so on, especially on the part of a Newbie. Even the "old hands" make mistakes too.

I don't see the validity of a CO being able to delete a log simply because they didn't like what they read. Sometimes the truth is hard to face!!

In that case, I would ask what you think is the better solution. Who do you recommend to be the log police. Do you think if people post things with offensive language then it should remain. If people post a 'found it' for a cache they did not find should it remain? Someone has to be able to remove logs and I hardly think Groundspeak should be expected to try to police that or have to field hundreds of requests a day to make determinations on whether a log should be deleted. Especially in the case where someone logged a find that they did not find. In this case, only the CO can really go to the cache and look at the log and know this. I think Groundspeak simply did what they thought was the best solution to a problem that has no perfect solution and trusted COs to made prudent decisions about what logs should be deleted. I really would like to hear your thoughts on what you think would be a better system.

[+SOLONM]

Who do you recommend to be the log police. Do you think if people post things with offensive language then it should remain. If people post a 'found it' for a cache they did not find should it remain? Someone has to be able to remove logs and I hardly think Groundspeak should be expected to try to police that or have to field hundreds of requests a day to make determinations on whether a log should be deleted. Especially in the case where someone logged a find that they did not find.

 

It seems to me that geocaching is meant to be a fun and friendly game. We all need to be our own referees.

 

I have never deleted a log although some day I might have to do just that but only if abusive language was used. On the odd occasion someone has logged a find instead of a DNF & I have asked them to remove the log as they clearly made a mistake..no problem!!!

 

The majority of the participants in this forum thread appear to be finders rather than COs, which is interesting.

I don't have any solutions. The thread was all about feed back and thanks everyone for your contributions!!

[+briansnat]

...And yet at the same time if we as finders have what may be construed by a CO as negative comments, the CO is able to delete logs if they don't like them???

 

Cache owners have the ability to delete logs but they generally shouldn't in any but the most extreme circumstances (unwanted spoilers, profanity, etc.)

 

There are some thin skinned cache owners out there but they are a very small segment. Cache ownership generally isn't something that control freaks and people who are afraid of criticism find attractive for long.

 

If you do run into one of these types its easy enough to avoid their caches.

[+GeePa]

It seems to me that geocaching is meant to be a fun and friendly game. We all need to be our own referees.

 

I have never deleted a log although some day I might have to do just that but only if abusive language was used. On the odd occasion someone has logged a find instead of a DNF & I have asked them to remove the log as they clearly made a mistake..no problem!!!

 

 

Sorry, I misunderstood your original post. I thought this issue was whether COs should have the ability to delete logs.

 

I do not feel (and would guess most others do as well) it is right for a CO to delete a log simply because they disagree with the content of the log unless there is some extenuating reason such as foul language or blatant spoilers in which case I suppose the CO could simply ask the logger to clean it up and then only delete the log if they refuse. I think if everyone takes the 'Do unto others' kind of philosophy then everything would work pretty well. Unfortunately, not everyone is so considerate.

[+SOLONM]

Once upon a time in galaxy far far away, geocaching had a strong sense of community and many shared values among the few dozen or so people who participated. People wrote nice logs about their experiences finding caches and if they had concerns they expressed them in a nice way to the cache owner whom they either knew or a least felt a camaraderie with because they were so few geocachers. And cache owners accepted these concerns. Everyone was just learning about geocaching and was interested in what other people though about their hides and how they could be improved.

 

y'know this is what geocahing is all about.......too bad some of us began too late to get that all inclusive fuzzy inclusive handshake. For the most part we all try to keep the game going in the spirit it was handed on. Some of us embrace the rules and from time to time question what those rules are all about.

that was what this thread was all about.

I question why a CO can just delete legitimate logs when the Groundspeak mandate is to share your experiences when you find a cache.

I figure a finder has a right to share their experiences...good bad or mediocre without fearing their log will be deleted by a CO

[+bittsen]

Once upon a time in galaxy far far away, geocaching had a strong sense of community and many shared values among the few dozen or so people who participated. People wrote nice logs about their experiences finding caches and if they had concerns they expressed them in a nice way to the cache owner whom they either knew or a least felt a camaraderie with because they were so few geocachers. And cache owners accepted these concerns. Everyone was just learning about geocaching and was interested in what other people though about their hides and how they could be improved.

 

y'know this is what geocahing is all about.......too bad some of us began too late to get that all inclusive fuzzy inclusive handshake. For the most part we all try to keep the game going in the spirit it was handed on. Some of us embrace the rules and from time to time question what those rules are all about.

that was what this thread was all about.

I question why a CO can just delete legitimate logs when the Groundspeak mandate is to share your experiences when you find a cache.

I figure a finder has a right to share their experiences...good bad or mediocre without fearing their log will be deleted by a CO

 

No, we must post only nice things in the logs. Geocaching should be a Stepford hobby.

 

(yes folks, that was sarcasm)

[+SOLONM]

There are some thin skinned cache owners out there but they are a very small segment. Cache ownership generally isn't something that control freaks and people who are afraid of criticism find attractive for long.

 

If you do run into one of these types its easy enough to avoid their caches.

 

True enough........it is tough when you have one in your 'hood & they can pretty much wreck it all for everyone ( their own fan club being the exception)!! Thank goodness for filters etc. But that is not what the game is all about is it??

meanwhile the thread is all about log deletions and how come we as finders are invited to post our experiences and COs can delete our logs if they don't like our comments

[+tozainamboku]

Once upon a time in galaxy far far away, geocaching had a strong sense of community and many shared values among the few dozen or so people who participated. People wrote nice logs about their experiences finding caches and if they had concerns they expressed them in a nice way to the cache owner whom they either knew or a least felt a camaraderie with because they were so few geocachers. And cache owners accepted these concerns. Everyone was just learning about geocaching and was interested in what other people though about their hides and how they could be improved.

 

y'know this is what geocahing is all about.......too bad some of us began too late to get that all inclusive fuzzy inclusive handshake. For the most part we all try to keep the game going in the spirit it was handed on. Some of us embrace the rules and from time to time question what those rules are all about.

that was what this thread was all about.

I question why a CO can just delete legitimate logs when the Groundspeak mandate is to share your experiences when you find a cache.

I figure a finder has a right to share their experiences...good bad or mediocre without fearing their log will be deleted by a CO

You know that a long time ago there were no rules. Geocachers made up the "rules" as they went along. For a long time this site listed three "rules" that were essentially the instructions that Dave Ulmer posted to the USENET when he hid the first geocache: "Take some stuff, leave some stuff! Record it all in the log book. Have Fun!"

 

"Rules" or rather guidelines as to what was OK to do when you hide (or search for) a cache were developed over time as the need arose. The "rule" against burying caches (actually against digging) was established when park managers expressed fear that if they allowed caches in their parks, people would soon be there searching for "buried treasure" and digging up the landscape. So we got a "rule" that caches should never be buried. Most of the other "rules" developed in similar fashion.

 

One enhancement to the site was to give the cache owner the ability to delete logs. This was done because some people posted bogus logs and others used the site to post off topic spam on the cache pages. There were of course a few case where someone used foul language, and many case where cache owners wanted to do something about logs that contained spoilers that ruined the cache hunt for others. The guidelines specify just what kinds of logs a cache owner may delete. But once you give the capability there will be some that abuse it. Groundspeak feels that allowing the cache owners the capability to delete logs that should be deleted far outweighs the risk of a cache owner deleting legitimate logs. They have found that usually a dispute over logs can be resolved between the cache owner and the finder. If a cache owner deletes your log for saying something they don't like, you usually can find a way to say it that the owner will let stand. But in the rare cases where this is not possible, you can ask Groundspeak to reinstate your log. Generally a warning from Groundspeak to let a log stand or risk having the cache page archived is enough to get a vindictive cache owner to stop deleting logs. Some think that knowing that cache owners can delete logs has a benefit in that if you are going to write a critical log you will spend some time thinking of how to word it so it doesn't sound like an attack on the cache owner.

 

You have made a claim that the ability of the cache owner to delete logs is in conflict with the "rule" that says you should share your experiences in your online log. This "rule" is in the new version of the rules this site lists that came from the original cache instructions. It would be better, IMO, if Groundspeak didn't call these rules but merely instructions for geocaching. The online log exists for sharing your experience as well as for thanking the cache owner. It also servers the purpose of keeping track of which caches you have found. Some people don't even post online logs. Others simply write Thanks or TFTC. In reality there is no requirement to post your experience. But even if there was, there is no need to post spoilers and there is no need to use foul language. There is also no need to post criticism of a cache owners techniques or choice of location. You can point out issues with a particular cache but you can do it in a nice way. Your initial premise is that you ought to be able to say whatever you like about a cache and be protected from censorship. I contend that you can write about your experience and do it in a way that shouldn't offend any but the most thin-skinned cache owners. I've never had a found it log deleted. I have been asked by caches owners on several occasions to change my log. Generally, they claim my log can be seen as a spoiler. But, until I learned better, I was occasionally asked to change a log that was critical of the location or hiding technique.

 

You give examples of what you feel would be a legitimate concern to express about a cache - those being safety and environmental issues. In general, I would agree that these are areas where you might want to say something in the log. But you can't be inventing "rules". There is no rule that says dangerous caches are not allowed. Dangerous caches should be rated properly and the cache owner should never hide the fact that there are dangers in finding his cache. I am always upfront in posting attributes that show hazards on my caches. Often, what is perceived as environmental damage caused by cachers searching for a cache is not. It may be prexisting damage or it may have been caused by something other than the cache. If you see damage you may want to let the cache owner know about it and perhaps even put it in the log, but unless you're some kind of expert that can link it to the cache why make that assumption in your log? Just reading the examples you give I wonder if we are hearing the whole story. It is too easy to image a log where someone felt they were doing the right thing by expressing their concerns about safety or environmental issues where they may have made charges against the cache owner that were unjustified and therefore the cache owner deleted the log.

[+irlpguy]

Since I am very familiar with Solonm as a cacher and friend, let me say that I as a cache owner believe that an owner has the absolute right to remove a log that contains foul or inappropriate language, includes a spoiler or is not relative to the cache in any way. "That" is where the freedom of a cache owner to remove logs should end.

 

I have had logs deleted and through appeal have had them reinstated, I know of others who have had their logs deleted and again have had them reinstated, and all this from the same cache owner.

 

I have told this cache owner to remove a portion of his log as it was not pertinent in any way to the cache or I would delete the log entirely, on one occasion the log was changed, on another I removed the log and he re-logged with an edited edition.

 

Today I deleted a note posted to one of my disabled caches, only to have this same idiot post another note to another disabled cache and very quickly delete that one himself. All of this and so much more from one local idiot cache owner.

 

I love to write long descriptive logs and play on a story about how the find was made, I often post pictures to show my appreciation of the cache. On the other hand when I am taken to a place that is nothing more than a garbage dump or is a danger to those seeking the cache, you can bet your last dollar my log will indicate the negative experience I have had.

 

As Solonm says we should be able to express our experience without fear of our log being deleted just because the cache owner does not like the log content, if the cache is good the logs will indicate that, if they are only good in the eyes of the owner then the logs should be negative.

 

My last word would be to encourage all cachers to "not" post a "thanks for bringing me here" log when you have had a bad experience, tell it like it is folks, in doing so we will be more likely to weed out the guy intent on deleting all those logs on a crappy cache.

 

Maybe we can go fishing sometime tomorrow Solonm. java script:emoticon('',%20'smid_3')

[+GeePa]

I question why a CO can just delete legitimate logs when the Groundspeak mandate is to share your experiences when you find a cache.

I figure a finder has a right to share their experiences...good bad or mediocre without fearing their log will be deleted by a CO

 

This is my last post on this thread because I just can't figure out what it is you are after. What is your point. Do you think that COs should have the right to delete logs taken away? If so, then my post a couple back was my thoughts in response to this. But then your reply to that indicated that you were more just asking about whether we thought it was proper for a CO to delete a log just because they did not like it and so I responded to this. Now you make the statement above. I am so confused. The problem I see is that there is no good way I know of to allow a CO to delete logs that legitimately need deleting while not allowing him/her to delete logs that should stay. Maybe you are just looking for Groundspeak to write a set of guidelines for how a CO is to handle log deletion. When is it proper when is it not, should the poster be contacted first, etc. I think this may be the best thing that can be done in my opinion because I don't agree with taking away a CO's ability to delete logs altogether. Whenever you get a group of people this large together you will have people from all walks of life from different cultures with different sets of cultural norms. People will behave differently depending on their culture and upbringing unless they are given guidelines to help them understand what is appropriate in the current context.

 

By the way, I personally do not believe in expressing dissatisfaction about something unless I have a proposed solution that I think would improve upon the problem. This way people can properly debate the merits of said proposed solution and come to an agreement so that action can be taken and make the game better. I guess if you just want to vent...