Responsible GeoCaching

[SgtDuVall]

I am Sgt. Richard DuVall with the Colorado Springs Police Department. This message is intended to request the assistance of geocachers to exercise caution in placement of caches. I am speaking in particular to geocachers in the Colorado Springs area, but this info is a good reminder to all geocachers. In the past year, we have had 3 incidents in our city where citizens have reported seeing something suspicious, a person hiding a suspicious object that could be a bomb. These three incidents I'm referring to turned out to be geocache locations. In one instance, the cache was a small metal cyliner with ends that unscrew to reveal the items inside and the finders log. This item resembled a possible pipe bomb and was blown up by our bomb squad. The most recent event happened on September 29, 2009. A campus police officer observed two persons placing a metal object in a field between the college property and New Life Church (where a domestic terrorism/shooting incident occurred a year ago). The item was a metal ammo can with some wires attached. The campus officer approached the two males and they jumped in their vehicle and fled, which made the incident seem much more suspicious than it had to. The area was secured, students were evacuated and the bomb squad called in. Again, this item was "rendered safe" by the bomb squad... blown up... Some may find this humorous, but it is not. The only safe way to handle a suspected explosive is to render it inoperable. The bomb squad has several ways of doing that, but they all end with the object being pretty well destroyed. This means that geocache items mistaken for a possible explosive are ruined and "rendered inoperable". That is not good for your game, obviously, but even more importantly, until the item is neutralized and can be examined more closely, numerous officers and expensive equipment is tied up for an extended time. This causes a very unnecessary and expensive cost to the public. I encourage all of you to please consider using cache items that don't resemble any kind of threatening device. Clearly mark them for what they are. Use clear containers when possible. Ask permission to hide the items on private property. If property owners or police approach you, simply explain what you are doing... don't run! These same suggestions are also encouraged by HeadHardHat on GEO-Snippets on this Geocache website. I encourage you to enjoy your game, it sounds fun. But please do so responsibly and don't create situations like those described above. Thank you.

[+sbell111]

Welcome. Thanks for popping in.

 

I wonder if you could expound on your comment that "The campus officer approached the two males and they jumped in their vehicle and fled".

 

It is very strange to me that geocachers would act in this manner when approached by a LEO. From other reports, I understand that the officer was off-duty. Was he in uniform? Did he speak to them?

[+Castle Mischief]

I encourage all of you to please consider using cache items that don't resemble any kind of threatening device. Clearly mark them for what they are. Use clear containers when possible. Ask permission to hide the items on private property. If property owners or police approach you, simply explain what you are doing... don't run!

 

I agree with what you have said here. I would point out (and this should in no way be taken as trying invalidate your message) that clearly marked, transparent containers and caches placed with permission have been "rendered safe" by bomb squads in other parts of the country. The reaction to a found cache can vary greatly from place to place, department to department, cop to cop.

 

But please do so responsibly and don't create situations like those described above. Thank you.

 

I agree that sometimes the knuckle-headed choice of container and lack of permission can definitely elevate the perception that a cache may be a dangerous object.

[+Moose Mob]

Being from a family of law enforcement, I can understand the need to approach every situation with an elevated level of caution and suspicion. A lot of lives depend on it, and not just the safety of the officer either.

 

As the OP stated, we do need to be careful about how our cache placements are perceived. This will not prevent our caches from "rendering safe" a small pill bottle or a Tupperware container, but it may reduce the quantity.

 

That said... about a year ago we had a small Tupperware type container (3x3x1.5) near to an apartment building (200 feet) investigated with the bomb squad's robot and camera, and when they recognized the label and were able to see the bulk of contents, they knew what it was. one of the bomb squad's member went and signed the log book leaving a few junior police officer badges as SWAG.

[+StarBrand]

You know - it just couldn't hurt for the police to inquire with some group of local cachers and or the website about such a "location" before doing thier duty.

 

Thanks for doing your job and keeping us safe but really aren't all containers treated as suspicious (clear or not - labeled or not)?? Also, the game itself is harmless, the reaction to it is another matter entirely. The times we live in and the media constantly remind us to be viligent about such things and call authorities. Authorities have to treat each incident with professionalism and seriousness. The owner of the cache (assuming some level of permission) did nothing wrong. Everybody seems to have done what we are all encouraged to do. The sytem worked.

 

The big flaw I see here is why the geocache seekers fled the scene.

[SgtDuVall]

Hi sbell111.

 

My understanding from official reports is that the officer was a campus police officer for the college, Pikes Peak Community College. I was told she was on duty and in her marked vehicle, but I wasn't there, I received my info second hand as well. I don't mean to paint a picture that these guys were doing anything wrong. Maybe they thought they were going to get in trouble for being on the property, I don't know... but I agree that their behavior was probably not typical of most geocachers. I just hope folks will read these blogs and take whatever they can from them to try and avoid these kinds of situations. If they would have stopped and talked to the officer, whether she was on duty or off, or in uniform or not, it would have been resolved much sooner without involving costly resources.

[+tekkguy]

You know - it just couldn't hurt for the police to inquire with some group of local cachers and or the website about such a "location" before doing thier duty.

 

And they're supposed to rely on that? Just because it's listed on the website doesn't mean it's really a cache. Could still be any number of things from a law enforcement perspective.

 

If they went on solely on the word of a geocacher and the listing on this website, it wouldn't be long before you'd have someone swap out a pre-existing geocache with something much, much worse, knowing the cops are going to just ignore it because it's listed and Joe Geocacher says "Oh yeah, there's one there, I signed the log last week."

 

I'm with the cops on this one, especially after the cachers jumping in the car and taking off.

 

And no, I'd seriously doubt that the cop would have given chase to the guys. Best case, he'd have gotten the license plate and description - his more important job was securing what he thought could be a bomb.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Welcome. Thanks for popping in.

 

I wonder if you could expound on your comment that "The campus officer approached the two males and they jumped in their vehicle and fled".

 

It is very strange to me that geocachers would act in this manner when approached by a LEO. From other reports, I understand that the officer was off-duty. Was he in uniform? Did he speak to them?

This thread seems to corroborate that account of the events.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=232762

[+brokenoaks]

I am not trying to justify ill responsible thoughtless cache placement but I just wonder how many non caching related bomb scares the same police force responded to in that year? Of the 912,389 active geocaches around the world, a VERY few are responded to by the bomb squad. It would be wonderful if that number were zero but with this many people involved in geocaching and law enforcement a little on edge these days these incidents are going to happen. Unfortunately we will all pay for the bad judgment of a few.

[+NanCycle]

The campus officer approached the two males and they jumped in their vehicle and fled.

I also am wondering about this description of their activity.

 

First, was there any indication to the "two males" that the campus officeer was in fact LEO?

Also, "jumped in their vehicle and fled" is a highly loaded description for what could also be described as "got in their vehicle and left." The first description presupposes guilt while the second is neutral in regard to suspicion of guilt.

 

Whose words are being quoted here? The campus officer, who had already decided that the situation was suspicious?

 

 

in a field between the college property and New Life Church

So the cache wasn't on the college property?

 

But please do so responsibly and don't create situations like those described above

I have read a number of reports about caches that were deemed to be suspicious, and I can't see how it would be possible to anticipate all the possible scenarios that might result in someone someday thinking there might possibly be something suspicious about them. Personally I don't see anything necessarily irresponsible about anyone's activity in this incident.

[+StarBrand]

You know - it just couldn't hurt for the police to inquire with some group of local cachers and or the website about such a "location" before doing thier duty.

 

And they're supposed to rely on that? Just because it's listed on the website doesn't mean it's really a cache. Could still be any number of things from a law enforcement perspective.

 

If they went on solely on the word of a geocacher and the listing on this website, it wouldn't be long before you'd have someone swap out a pre-existing geocache with something much, much worse, knowing the cops are going to just ignore it because it's listed and Joe Geocacher says "Oh yeah, there's one there, I signed the log last week."

 

I'm with the cops on this one, especially after the cachers jumping in the car and taking off.

 

And no, I'd seriously doubt that the cop would have given chase to the guys. Best case, he'd have gotten the license plate and description - his more important job was securing what he thought could be a bomb.

No they should not rely solely on that - but (like I said) - it certainly couldn't hurt to check. Might save a lot of hassle.

[+tekkguy]

You know - it just couldn't hurt for the police to inquire with some group of local cachers and or the website about such a "location" before doing thier duty.

 

And they're supposed to rely on that? Just because it's listed on the website doesn't mean it's really a cache. Could still be any number of things from a law enforcement perspective.

 

If they went on solely on the word of a geocacher and the listing on this website, it wouldn't be long before you'd have someone swap out a pre-existing geocache with something much, much worse, knowing the cops are going to just ignore it because it's listed and Joe Geocacher says "Oh yeah, there's one there, I signed the log last week."

 

I'm with the cops on this one, especially after the cachers jumping in the car and taking off.

 

And no, I'd seriously doubt that the cop would have given chase to the guys. Best case, he'd have gotten the license plate and description - his more important job was securing what he thought could be a bomb.

No they should not rely solely on that - but (like I said) - it certainly couldn't hurt to check. Might save a lot of hassle.

 

It would be wasted time finding, contacting, and verifying with a geocacher - in the end, they know it MIGHT be a geocache (if it has a sticker, it MIGHT be a geocache) ... but there's still no way to know 100% certain unless it's opened or 'rendered inoperable' ... and they aren't going to take the risk to open it, so why bother taking the time to check ... I guess that's more of the point.

[+StarBrand]

You know - it just couldn't hurt for the police to inquire with some group of local cachers and or the website about such a "location" before doing thier duty.

 

And they're supposed to rely on that? Just because it's listed on the website doesn't mean it's really a cache. Could still be any number of things from a law enforcement perspective.

 

If they went on solely on the word of a geocacher and the listing on this website, it wouldn't be long before you'd have someone swap out a pre-existing geocache with something much, much worse, knowing the cops are going to just ignore it because it's listed and Joe Geocacher says "Oh yeah, there's one there, I signed the log last week."

 

I'm with the cops on this one, especially after the cachers jumping in the car and taking off.

 

And no, I'd seriously doubt that the cop would have given chase to the guys. Best case, he'd have gotten the license plate and description - his more important job was securing what he thought could be a bomb.

No they should not rely solely on that - but (like I said) - it certainly couldn't hurt to check. Might save a lot of hassle.

 

It would be wasted time finding, contacting, and verifying with a geocacher - in the end, they know it MIGHT be a geocache (if it has a sticker, it MIGHT be a geocache) ... but there's still no way to know 100% certain unless it's opened or 'rendered inoperable' ... and they aren't going to take the risk to open it, so why bother taking the time to check ... I guess that's more of the point.

I just can't see how more information about the situation could possibly hurt. If a previous finder can describe the cache container and location in detail to the "squad" - seems to me that is just a better use of Tax dollars and police time. Just awareness - that is all I am asking for. I see your point but the good officer dropped by to try and improve realations on both sides of the fence as I see it.

[+vegaschick]

You know - it just couldn't hurt for the police to inquire with some group of local cachers and or the website about such a "location" before doing thier duty.

 

That really doesn't seem feasible. Two suspicious guys hiding a suspicious package near a church that had recently had issues. The suspicious guys run from the scene when approached. So instead of immediately rendering safe the suspicious package, the police officers should wait around and see if the cache gets published soon? Or they should log on to the local geocaching site and ask, "Hey, has anyone recently hidden a an ammo can over by the college?" That might work if you can guarantee an immediate response, but otherwise, that seems to me like the police would be wasting a lot of time. Sure, WE know it's geocaching, but how are THEY supposed to know and is that a chance the police want to take? I think not.

[+StarBrand]

You know - it just couldn't hurt for the police to inquire with some group of local cachers and or the website about such a "location" before doing thier duty.

 

That really doesn't seem feasible. Two suspicious guys hiding a suspicious package near a church that had recently had issues. The suspicious guys run from the scene when approached. So instead of immediately rendering safe the suspicious package, the police officers should wait around and see if the cache gets published soon? Or they should log on to the local geocaching site and ask, "Hey, has anyone recently hidden a an ammo can over by the college?" That might work if you can guarantee an immediate response, but otherwise, that seems to me like the police would be wasting a lot of time. Sure, WE know it's geocaching, but how are THEY supposed to know and is that a chance the police want to take? I think not.

Give me a break - somebody back at the office can bring up the website and a google map of the spot while the the "squad" is rolling to the scene. Might take what - 30 seconds?? If it seems likely that the object is a cache - call a contact number for a local group and ask a few questions. Might take another minute or 3. The "squad" is still likely not on scene yet. If the website/cacher call bears no fruit - continue as planned. If it does, take a breath and at least consider the possiblities before blowing it up.

[+BlueDeuce]

<snip>...I encourage all of you to please consider using cache items that don't resemble any kind of threatening device. Clearly mark them for what they are. Use clear containers when possible. Ask permission to hide the items on private property. If property owners or police approach you, simply explain what you are doing... don't run! These same suggestions are also encouraged by HeadHardHat on GEO-Snippets on this Geocache website. I encourage you to enjoy your game, it sounds fun. But please do so responsibly and don't create situations like those described above. Thank you.

 

I couldn't agree more. Thank you for taking the time to start a dialog.

 

When issues arise, Geocachers and Law Enforcement should be in communication so that both parties understand the game.

[+Sol seaker]

Yeah, I think it is great to have more interaction between law enforcement and geocachers.

 

someone buy that guy a premium membership!!

[+BlueDeuce]

You know - it just couldn't hurt for the police to inquire with some group of local cachers and or the website about such a "location" before doing thier duty.

 

That really doesn't seem feasible. Two suspicious guys hiding a suspicious package near a church that had recently had issues. The suspicious guys run from the scene when approached. So instead of immediately rendering safe the suspicious package, the police officers should wait around and see if the cache gets published soon? Or they should log on to the local geocaching site and ask, "Hey, has anyone recently hidden a an ammo can over by the college?" That might work if you can guarantee an immediate response, but otherwise, that seems to me like the police would be wasting a lot of time. Sure, WE know it's geocaching, but how are THEY supposed to know and is that a chance the police want to take? I think not.

Give me a break - somebody back at the office can bring up the website and a google map of the spot while the the "squad" is rolling to the scene. Might take what - 30 seconds?? If it seems likely that the object is a cache - call a contact number for a local group and ask a few questions. Might take another minute or 3. The "squad" is still likely not on scene yet. If the website/cacher call bears no fruit - continue as planned. If it does, take a breath and at least consider the possiblities before blowing it up.

 

I think it could be taken a step further than just expecting LOE to query for a cache location. (Think Multies and Puzzle caches) In Cedar Rapids a huge majority of caches require Park Department approval and are on record with the city.

 

Teach your locals that we only hide caches from other cachers. Be up front with with city officials before, during and after. If you make geocaching 'their problem' you are missing out on a lot of opportunities to help the game grow.

Edited October 1, 2009 by BlueDeuce

[+dakin55]

I understand your comments and do apply them to my hides. There looks to be in excess of 1000 hides in and around your area. I truely believe that a decal on our cache containers will not change the way that the bomb squad handles these cases, a clear container will help but still feel that the end result will not change very often. I could be wrong. As this game is growing in proportion and I do understand the need for security, I think that police forces have to have knowledge of hides in an area. The game will not end anytime soon. A long term solution starts with open discussion and new ideas, You have spent the time to come here so hopefully the geocaching comunity can understand the need for a way of assisting the local LEO's. One way would be to have the hide details of all caches available to the police, not just the coords but also a detailed description that could be submitted and viewed by the reviewers and proper authourized accouts only.

[knowschad]

The suspicious guys run from the scene when approached.

 

 

Allegedly ran when allegedly approached by an allegedly uniformed allegedly on-duty campus security cop. It may well be that they walked off and got into their car and drove to the next cache without noticing an out-of-uniform, off-duty person waving at them. We really don't know yet, and possibly never will.

 

 

 

So instead of immediately rendering safe the suspicious package, the police officers should wait around and see if the cache gets published soon? Or they should log on to the local geocaching site and ask, "Hey, has anyone recently hidden a an ammo can over by the college?" That might work if you can guarantee an immediate response, but otherwise, that seems to me like the police would be wasting a lot of time. Sure, WE know it's geocaching, but how are THEY supposed to know and is that a chance the police want to take? I think not.

 

Wait until it has been published? It sound to me that you are making the assumption that these two guys were placing a new hide, and not simply replacing a cache after they found it, which is much more likely.

 

 

As far as asking if anyone has recently hidden an ammo can over by the college... just snap a waypoint, and look them up to see what's near. If there is a cache nearby, I'd think that, while caution would still need to be exercised, that the approach would be vastly different than what would be applied to a totally unknown object. Police officers have to apply intelligent discretion in many other situations.

[+mfamilee]

I think this calls for free geocache stickers to help prevent instances such as this.

[+slowdownracer]

Wow, we've been busted, man !!!

 

[+koneko]

I am Sgt. Richard DuVall with the Colorado Springs Police Department. This message is intended to request the assistance of geocachers to exercise caution in placement of caches. I am speaking in particular to geocachers in the Colorado Springs area, but this info is a good reminder to all geocachers. In the past year, we have had 3 incidents in our city where citizens have reported seeing something suspicious, a person hiding a suspicious object that could be a bomb. These three incidents I'm referring to turned out to be geocache locations. In one instance, the cache was a small metal cyliner with ends that unscrew to reveal the items inside and the finders log. This item resembled a possible pipe bomb and was blown up by our bomb squad. The most recent event happened on September 29, 2009. A campus police officer observed two persons placing a metal object in a field between the college property and New Life Church (where a domestic terrorism/shooting incident occurred a year ago). The item was a metal ammo can with some wires attached. The campus officer approached the two males and they jumped in their vehicle and fled, which made the incident seem much more suspicious than it had to. The area was secured, students were evacuated and the bomb squad called in. Again, this item was "rendered safe" by the bomb squad... blown up... Some may find this humorous, but it is not. The only safe way to handle a suspected explosive is to render it inoperable. The bomb squad has several ways of doing that, but they all end with the object being pretty well destroyed. This means that geocache items mistaken for a possible explosive are ruined and "rendered inoperable". That is not good for your game, obviously, but even more importantly, until the item is neutralized and can be examined more closely, numerous officers and expensive equipment is tied up for an extended time. This causes a very unnecessary and expensive cost to the public. I encourage all of you to please consider using cache items that don't resemble any kind of threatening device. Clearly mark them for what they are. Use clear containers when possible. Ask permission to hide the items on private property. If property owners or police approach you, simply explain what you are doing... don't run! These same suggestions are also encouraged by HeadHardHat on GEO-Snippets on this Geocache website. I encourage you to enjoy your game, it sounds fun. But please do so responsibly and don't create situations like those described above. Thank you.

 

I'd just like to say thanks for coming here to make it clear that you (and hopefully others in the Law Enforcement Field) understand how much the game means to us as a whole.. and just hope that we can be thoughtful, considerate and careful when placing our caches! It's great to read that coming from someone in your position.

[+HouseOfDragons]

I think this calls for free geocache stickers to help prevent instances such as this.

 

But what is stopping someone placing an explosive device as a geocache?

 

Place a cache, let people find it a few times, replace it with a stickered box with explosives in it.

 

Personally, I'd rather the police blew up a few tupperware boxes then assume it's a geocache, having checked the listing or not.

[+Castle Mischief]

I think this calls for free geocache stickers to help prevent instances such as this.

 

But what is stopping someone placing an explosive device as a geocache?

 

Nothing that isn't stopping somebody from turning a million other everyday objects into hiding spots for explosive devices. Reign in the paranoia.

 

It amazes me to see these kinds of statements "pretty soon somebody will disguise a bomb as a cache" from within the community. How many caches are hidden and found every day? You cannot think like this and continue to find caches. You'll either end up in the fetal position in your bedroom floor mumbling to yourself or you'll just stop caching altogether.

 

Be cautious? Sure. Be aware? Absolutely. But don't forget to be sensible and practical as well.

 

To address all the posts to the effect of "you can't expect the cops to trust a page on the internets". It may shock and surprise you to learn that some police departments are doing that right now- checking this website or a list of "registered" caches in their local areas before calling in the bomb squad.

 

Now where is ClanRiffster with his informative sequence of events for reporting a "suspicious package"...?

 

 

Thanks again to the Sargent for making the effort to contact the cachers of these forums. I hope that the local cachers are making a similar attempt to establish some sort of report in that area as well. There are ample opportunities for better communication here.

[+sbell111]

I think this calls for free geocache stickers to help prevent instances such as this.

But what is stopping someone placing an explosive device as a geocache?

 

Place a cache, let people find it a few times, replace it with a stickered box with explosives in it.

 

Personally, I'd rather the police blew up a few tupperware boxes then assume it's a geocache, having checked the listing or not.

I think that what you describe is a possibility that the police have to be somewhat concerned with, but it is very, very unlikely. A terrorist would be much, much more likely to detonate a vehicle, a random package, or himself. Remember, if you blow up a geocache, you kill one guy. That's alot of wasted energy to kill one random person.

[+Vater_Araignee]

Three incidences? How much did that cost? I bet a bomb sniffing dog or some detection tech could be acquired at or less than the cost of three renderings.

Wile not even trying I found dogs for about 12k, airborne detectors for as low as 8k and spray on detection for $200.00.

Yeah, ammo cans would still be rendered but not a cammo painted lock n lock.

[+HouseOfDragons]

I think this calls for free geocache stickers to help prevent instances such as this.

 

But what is stopping someone placing an explosive device as a geocache?

 

Nothing that isn't stopping somebody from turning a million other everyday objects into hiding spots for explosive devices. Reign in the paranoia.

 

 

I'm not paranoid at all, simply pointing out that a "free sticker" isn't going to change anything. I don't actually think I'm going to come across a cache bomb!

 

We should simply trust the judgement of the professionals dealing with the suspect packages. If the police involved thought this caches was suspect, it is quite right that they dealt with it as they thought best.

 

It is kind of surprising they didn't/don't use sniffer dogs though but I guess they have a better idea about what they're doing than I or most other cachers do.

[+tekkguy]

I think this calls for free geocache stickers to help prevent instances such as this.

 

But what is stopping someone placing an explosive device as a geocache?

 

Place a cache, let people find it a few times, replace it with a stickered box with explosives in it.

 

Personally, I'd rather the police blew up a few tupperware boxes then assume it's a geocache, having checked the listing or not.

 

Thanks for making my point about checking caches before calling the bomb squad. It's useless. In the end, you come up with Schroedinger's Cache - that thing (especially where it was, considering there was a terrorism incident last year in that spot) is both a bomb and a cache until you look inside - and you think one of them is just going to reach down and pop open an ammo can in a bad location after two 'suspicious' guys just left it?

 

I'm not saying the cops shouldn't verify - I'm saying it's a waste of time in a situation like this where the combination of the location and type of hide make for very bad vibes.

 

If the 'suspicious' guys had just walked away from a piece of tupperware, the cops would be in a different spot, I'm betting. Hide an ammo can in the woods - but if you hide one in the city, make sure someone in a position of authority (property owner, city, police, etc) knows that it is there and what it is.

 

I know several cops, and I don't know a single one that would, in this particular situation, given location and circumstances, just "trust the web" and open that box.

 

EDIT: Sgt. Duvall did ask for responsible geocaching. They'll take care of the responsible police work, which was handled well in this situation IMHO.

Edited October 2, 2009 by tekkguy

[+ArcherDragoon]

I am Sgt. Richard DuVall with the Colorado Springs Police Department. This message is intended to request the assistance of geocachers to exercise caution in placement of caches. I am speaking in particular to geocachers in the Colorado Springs area, but this info is a good reminder to all geocachers. In the past year, we have had 3 incidents in our city where citizens have reported seeing something suspicious, a person hiding a suspicious object that could be a bomb. These three incidents I'm referring to turned out to be geocache locations. In one instance, the cache was a small metal cyliner with ends that unscrew to reveal the items inside and the finders log. This item resembled a possible pipe bomb and was blown up by our bomb squad. The most recent event happened on September 29, 2009. A campus police officer observed two persons placing a metal object in a field between the college property and New Life Church (where a domestic terrorism/shooting incident occurred a year ago). The item was a metal ammo can with some wires attached. The campus officer approached the two males and they jumped in their vehicle and fled, which made the incident seem much more suspicious than it had to. The area was secured, students were evacuated and the bomb squad called in. Again, this item was "rendered safe" by the bomb squad... blown up... Some may find this humorous, but it is not. The only safe way to handle a suspected explosive is to render it inoperable. The bomb squad has several ways of doing that, but they all end with the object being pretty well destroyed. This means that geocache items mistaken for a possible explosive are ruined and "rendered inoperable". That is not good for your game, obviously, but even more importantly, until the item is neutralized and can be examined more closely, numerous officers and expensive equipment is tied up for an extended time. This causes a very unnecessary and expensive cost to the public. I encourage all of you to please consider using cache items that don't resemble any kind of threatening device. Clearly mark them for what they are. Use clear containers when possible. Ask permission to hide the items on private property. If property owners or police approach you, simply explain what you are doing... don't run! These same suggestions are also encouraged by HeadHardHat on GEO-Snippets on this Geocache website. I encourage you to enjoy your game, it sounds fun. But please do so responsibly and don't create situations like those described above. Thank you.

Thanks, it is greatly appreciated...

 

As some have pointed out in this thread, it is always best to tell the truth when approached by law enforcement or security (regardless of being county, city or college)...Personally, I think the concept of "stealth" is taken way to seriously in this activity these days. People think they look inconspicuous...but trying to look that way usually draws undue attention. Just go about your business, confident in knowing that what you are doing is not against the law...with all the news stories, articles and "exposure" we are getting, more and more people know what geocaching is...it is more "mainstream" than, I think, may people want to believe...

 

I have been in many open places, with many eyes around and just do what I know what to do...have people seen me with a cache...yes...have people seen me looking...yes, and openly looking...have I been questioned...yes...do I believe I compromised the security of the cache or the integrity of the game...nope...heck, I may have even "converted" a couple muggles to geocachers!!! (in fact...I know I have "converted" some muggles to geocachers)...

[+sbell111]

Thanks, it is greatly appreciated...

 

As some have pointed out in this thread, it is always best to tell the truth when approached by law enforcement or security (regardless of being county, city or college)...Personally, I think the concept of "stealth" is taken way to seriously in this activity these days. People think they look inconspicuous...but trying to look that way usually draws undue attention. Just go about your business, confident in knowing that what you are doing is not against the law...with all the news stories, articles and "exposure" we are getting, more and more people know what geocaching is...it is more "mainstream" than, I think, may people want to believe...

 

I have been in many open places, with many eyes around and just do what I know what to do...have people seen me with a cache...yes...have people seen me looking...yes, and openly looking...have I been questioned...yes...do I believe I compromised the security of the cache or the integrity of the game...nope...heck, I may have even "converted" a couple muggles to geocachers!!! (in fact...I know I have "converted" some muggles to geocachers)...

A few points:

• You appear to be making the argument that the cachers in this case looked conspicuous because they were trying to be stealthy. However, we have no idea if they weren't actually spotted because they were not trying to be stealthy.
  
• The reality of this situation is that they may have used sufficient stealth to not be noticed by most citizens. However, thier actions registered as hinky to a trained police officer. There is nothing wrong with this. In fact, this is the optimal situation.
  
• Like you, I've been caching for a while, now. Unlike you, I utilize reasonable stealth to protect the gamepieces. Also unlike you, I have never been questioned about my activities.
  

Edited October 2, 2009 by sbell111

[+bflentje]

I am Sgt. Richard DuVall with the Colorado Springs Police Department. This message is intended to request the assistance of geocachers to exercise caution in placement of caches. I am speaking in particular to geocachers in the Colorado Springs area, but this info is a good reminder to all geocachers. In the past year, we have had 3 incidents in our city where citizens have reported seeing something suspicious, a person hiding a suspicious object that could be a bomb. These three incidents I'm referring to turned out to be geocache locations. In one instance, the cache was a small metal cyliner with ends that unscrew to reveal the items inside and the finders log. This item resembled a possible pipe bomb and was blown up by our bomb squad. The most recent event happened on September 29, 2009. A campus police officer observed two persons placing a metal object in a field between the college property and New Life Church (where a domestic terrorism/shooting incident occurred a year ago). The item was a metal ammo can with some wires attached. The campus officer approached the two males and they jumped in their vehicle and fled, which made the incident seem much more suspicious than it had to. The area was secured, students were evacuated and the bomb squad called in. Again, this item was "rendered safe" by the bomb squad... blown up... Some may find this humorous, but it is not. The only safe way to handle a suspected explosive is to render it inoperable. The bomb squad has several ways of doing that, but they all end with the object being pretty well destroyed. This means that geocache items mistaken for a possible explosive are ruined and "rendered inoperable". That is not good for your game, obviously, but even more importantly, until the item is neutralized and can be examined more closely, numerous officers and expensive equipment is tied up for an extended time. This causes a very unnecessary and expensive cost to the public. I encourage all of you to please consider using cache items that don't resemble any kind of threatening device. Clearly mark them for what they are. Use clear containers when possible. Ask permission to hide the items on private property. If property owners or police approach you, simply explain what you are doing... don't run! These same suggestions are also encouraged by HeadHardHat on GEO-Snippets on this Geocache website. I encourage you to enjoy your game, it sounds fun. But please do so responsibly and don't create situations like those described above. Thank you.

 

Give me a paragraph please.. some of us have attention deficit and vision issues.

[+Rockin Roddy]

You know - it just couldn't hurt for the police to inquire with some group of local cachers and or the website about such a "location" before doing thier duty.

 

And they're supposed to rely on that? Just because it's listed on the website doesn't mean it's really a cache. Could still be any number of things from a law enforcement perspective.

 

If they went on solely on the word of a geocacher and the listing on this website, it wouldn't be long before you'd have someone swap out a pre-existing geocache with something much, much worse, knowing the cops are going to just ignore it because it's listed and Joe Geocacher says "Oh yeah, there's one there, I signed the log last week."

 

I'm with the cops on this one, especially after the cachers jumping in the car and taking off.

 

And no, I'd seriously doubt that the cop would have given chase to the guys. Best case, he'd have gotten the license plate and description - his more important job was securing what he thought could be a bomb.

No they should not rely solely on that - but (like I said) - it certainly couldn't hurt to check. Might save a lot of hassle.

 

It would be wasted time finding, contacting, and verifying with a geocacher - in the end, they know it MIGHT be a geocache (if it has a sticker, it MIGHT be a geocache) ... but there's still no way to know 100% certain unless it's opened or 'rendered inoperable' ... and they aren't going to take the risk to open it, so why bother taking the time to check ... I guess that's more of the point.

I just can't see how more information about the situation could possibly hurt. If a previous finder can describe the cache container and location in detail to the "squad" - seems to me that is just a better use of Tax dollars and police time. Just awareness - that is all I am asking for. I see your point but the good officer dropped by to try and improve realations on both sides of the fence as I see it.

 

Sorry, I only read this far. If this has already been addressed, please ignore...

 

What are the bomb squad and other officers who are there on the scene to do while someone takes the time to check the website, run down a previous finder and ask questions? Are they just to sit tight while eating up taxpayer money? I would just about BET it would take literally hours to get someone to come down and describe the cache or to even find the owner or a previous finder. IMHO, that's as bad a waste of taxpayer money...or worse.

 

Hey, they could get lucky though, maybe a new searcher might come upon the scene?

[+GeoGeeBee]

My employer owns a large mutli-use property... offices, restaurants, and retail. Yesterday I was in a meeting with the Property Manager. I mentioned geocaching to him and he had no idea what it was.

 

I thought that was strange, since I know there are three caches on the property. And I know that the rules of the game require permission before placing caches on private property. And I know that he would be the person to give such permission.

 

I told him briefly about geocaching and mentioned that there were caches on the property. Fortunately, he was ok with the idea. I offered to show him where they were. And I mentioned that it would probably be a good idea for security to know about them, too.

 

Because otherwise, a scenario like the one in the OP could easily happen here.

[+vegaschick]

Sorry, I only read this far. If this has already been addressed, please ignore...

 

What are the bomb squad and other officers who are there on the scene to do while someone takes the time to check the website, run down a previous finder and ask questions? Are they just to sit tight while eating up taxpayer money? I would just about BET it would take literally hours to get someone to come down and describe the cache or to even find the owner or a previous finder. IMHO, that's as bad a waste of taxpayer money...or worse.

 

Hey, they could get lucky though, maybe a new searcher might come upon the scene?

 

I couldn't agree more!

[Dinoprophet]

I think this calls for free geocache stickers to help prevent instances such as this.

But what is stopping someone placing an explosive device as a geocache?

 

Place a cache, let people find it a few times, replace it with a stickered box with explosives in it.

 

Personally, I'd rather the police blew up a few tupperware boxes then assume it's a geocache, having checked the listing or not.

I think that what you describe is a possibility that the police have to be somewhat concerned with, but it is very, very unlikely. A terrorist would be much, much more likely to detonate a vehicle, a random package, or himself. Remember, if you blow up a geocache, you kill one guy. That's alot of wasted energy to kill one random person.

I think you're imagining Bin Laden. Try imagining Klebold and Harris instead. I agree it's still unlikely, but far from out-of-the-question.

[+StarBrand]

....What are the bomb squad and other officers who are there on the scene to do while someone takes the time to check the website, run down a previous finder and ask questions? Are they just to sit tight while eating up taxpayer money? I would just about BET it would take literally hours to get someone to come down and describe the cache or to even find the owner or a previous finder. IMHO, that's as bad a waste of taxpayer money...or worse.

 

Hey, they could get lucky though, maybe a new searcher might come upon the scene?

 

I already addressed this in another post but - I seriously doubt if you had some good established contacts from the local geocaching community - it would take more than 10 minutes. If it takes more than 15 - go blow it up. But again - what in the world could it hurt to at least give it a try. More information for the officers could not possibly be a bad thing.

[+vegaschick]

Give me a break - somebody back at the office can bring up the website and a google map of the spot while the the "squad" is rolling to the scene. Might take what - 30 seconds?? If it seems likely that the object is a cache - call a contact number for a local group and ask a few questions. Might take another minute or 3. The "squad" is still likely not on scene yet. If the website/cacher call bears no fruit - continue as planned. If it does, take a breath and at least consider the possiblities before blowing it up.

 

Yeah, and what if it's a mystery or a multi? I guess their caching contact should be someone that has every cache in the area. But then, that cacher would have so many finds, they might not remember which one is under investigation.

 

I don't think the police are overreacting at all. The public's safety is their first concern, not the safety of an inanimate object. I'd rather have to replace my cache because it got blown up as a possible weapon, than hear about people being injured by a weapon that was thought to have been a geocache.

[+_Wolverine]

I question the whole statement about the geocachers "fleeing" the property once campus police went up to them - usually these knee-jerk campus security never give up a opportunity to chase people down on their property.. Seriously - I think they left LONG before the campus police got to the location and just made up some story about someone fleeing - they have video cameras on campus.

 

I'd like to see that video tape and see for ourselves what really happened with that scenario.

 

2nd scenario - if we make all containers full of "glow in the dark" geo cache stickers and little antennas that scream "I am a geocache! Come find me!" that takes away from the sport. Sorry - we are doing responsible geocaching. The geocache was NOT on school property.

 

I don't like the fact that Colo Springs police dept is pointing the finger on us. Shame on us. For what? Sorry - not buying it.

[+Rockin Roddy]

....What are the bomb squad and other officers who are there on the scene to do while someone takes the time to check the website, run down a previous finder and ask questions? Are they just to sit tight while eating up taxpayer money? I would just about BET it would take literally hours to get someone to come down and describe the cache or to even find the owner or a previous finder. IMHO, that's as bad a waste of taxpayer money...or worse.

 

Hey, they could get lucky though, maybe a new searcher might come upon the scene?

 

I already addressed this in another post but - I seriously doubt if you had some good established contacts from the local geocaching community - it would take more than 10 minutes. If it takes more than 15 - go blow it up. But again - what in the world could it hurt to at least give it a try. More information for the officers could not possibly be a bad thing.

 

So now the LEO are supposed to go about making contact wth all the cachers in the area? Seriously, I wouldn't be of much help for more than half the caches in my area, most are blue question marks. Chances of finding someone who has found all the caches in the area seems slim to none, but I suppose could happen?

 

Add to that the fact that many owners and finders work...how do the LEO track down the people to get the verification? What if the person who can help is on vacation, in the hospital, in the services etc...

 

You'd be better served asking the LEO to become cachers and find all the caches themselves OR ask all owners to report their location/hiding style/container etc (yeah, we all know that won't be happening since many don't even bother to ask permission). I highly doubt those ideas would work or be followed up on either!

 

It sounds like a good idea and might even be somewhat helpful, but in reality, it isn't going to do much!

[+StarBrand]

....What are the bomb squad and other officers who are there on the scene to do while someone takes the time to check the website, run down a previous finder and ask questions? Are they just to sit tight while eating up taxpayer money? I would just about BET it would take literally hours to get someone to come down and describe the cache or to even find the owner or a previous finder. IMHO, that's as bad a waste of taxpayer money...or worse.

 

Hey, they could get lucky though, maybe a new searcher might come upon the scene?

 

I already addressed this in another post but - I seriously doubt if you had some good established contacts from the local geocaching community - it would take more than 10 minutes. If it takes more than 15 - go blow it up. But again - what in the world could it hurt to at least give it a try. More information for the officers could not possibly be a bad thing.

 

So now the LEO are supposed to go about making contact wth all the cachers in the area? Seriously, I wouldn't be of much help for more than half the caches in my area, most are blue question marks. Chances of finding someone who has found all the caches in the area seems slim to none, but I suppose could happen?

 

Add to that the fact that many owners and finders work...how do the LEO track down the people to get the verification? What if the person who can help is on vacation, in the hospital, in the services etc...

 

You'd be better served asking the LEO to become cachers and find all the caches themselves OR ask all owners to report their location/hiding style/container etc (yeah, we all know that won't be happening since many don't even bother to ask permission). I highly doubt those ideas would work or be followed up on either!

 

It sounds like a good idea and might even be somewhat helpful, but in reality, it isn't going to do much!

Just could not hurt to try. Thats all I'm asking. How is taking a few minutes to explore the possiblilty a bad thing?? Yikes!!

[+Rockin Roddy]

....What are the bomb squad and other officers who are there on the scene to do while someone takes the time to check the website, run down a previous finder and ask questions? Are they just to sit tight while eating up taxpayer money? I would just about BET it would take literally hours to get someone to come down and describe the cache or to even find the owner or a previous finder. IMHO, that's as bad a waste of taxpayer money...or worse.

 

Hey, they could get lucky though, maybe a new searcher might come upon the scene?

 

I already addressed this in another post but - I seriously doubt if you had some good established contacts from the local geocaching community - it would take more than 10 minutes. If it takes more than 15 - go blow it up. But again - what in the world could it hurt to at least give it a try. More information for the officers could not possibly be a bad thing.

 

So now the LEO are supposed to go about making contact wth all the cachers in the area? Seriously, I wouldn't be of much help for more than half the caches in my area, most are blue question marks. Chances of finding someone who has found all the caches in the area seems slim to none, but I suppose could happen?

 

Add to that the fact that many owners and finders work...how do the LEO track down the people to get the verification? What if the person who can help is on vacation, in the hospital, in the services etc...

 

You'd be better served asking the LEO to become cachers and find all the caches themselves OR ask all owners to report their location/hiding style/container etc (yeah, we all know that won't be happening since many don't even bother to ask permission). I highly doubt those ideas would work or be followed up on either!

 

It sounds like a good idea and might even be somewhat helpful, but in reality, it isn't going to do much!

Just could not hurt to try. Thats all I'm asking. How is taking a few minutes to explore the possiblilty a bad thing?? Yikes!!

 

A few minutes? How could anyone do all that you'd need to make this work...in a few minutes? I don't think it could be done in weeks even. All the while, we're paying the LEO to do something other than their job which means laws being broken, regular police work etc would need to be ignored while these officers try to make the right contacts etc.

 

As I said, it sounds like a good idea and I wish it were a good option...but in reality, there's no way you can do this in a few minutes AT ALL.

[+StarBrand]

....As I said, it sounds like a good idea and I wish it were a good option...but in reality, there's no way you can do this in a few minutes AT ALL.

Really???!!?? You and I do it all the time.

 

We look up a cache on the internet - peek at the map. Hop in our cars and drive to the location. I see in the forums that many make good use of a PAF network while on the way to the scene. We find the cache and move on to another one.

 

Especially in urban environments - it rarely takes much more than a few minutes for all that to happen.

[knowschad]

While I'm certainly in agreement that it would be nice if they would at least try to determine if it might be a geocache, didn't we have a report of a similar incident here a while back, where the cache owner was present, yet they blew up the cache anyway?

 

 

I believe we also had a film cannister blown up in another incident, so the "appropriate container" argument fails there.

[+Rockin Roddy]

....As I said, it sounds like a good idea and I wish it were a good option...but in reality, there's no way you can do this in a few minutes AT ALL.

Really???!!?? You and I do it all the time.

 

We look up a cache on the internet - peek at the map. Hop in our cars and drive to the location. I see in the forums that many make good use of a PAF network while on the way to the scene. We find the cache and move on to another one.

 

Especially in urban environments - it rarely takes much more than a few minutes for all that to happen.

 

Ok, if it were so easy, how long did it take you to figure out how to contact a cache owner? How long did it take you to even find a cache? How long did it take you to figure out how to use a GPS so they had some kind of idea where to start the search (or were you guessing they'd be smart enough to figure out that you can search by zip code or map)? Add to this that you'd need more than a few officers learning all of this, you'd need someone willing to teach these officers (unless you truly believe the officers will just open the site and have it figured out in "minutes").

 

Think about it for a bit and then let me know how far off I am....

 

But wait, we still need to get the owner/previous finder to make the trip down and verify that it's certainly a cache. We need to track them down, ask them to leave whatever they may be doing and hotfoot it to the scene. Or were we just thinking the officers would see there is indeed a cache nearby and assume the suspect item is it? What about a mystery cache, a multi?

 

You seem to think the officers are automatically going to KNOW all about caching...learning that ALONE would take several hours or more...without help from a veteran cacher. We do need to look at the BIG picture and not just think that all officers will magically be educated and ready for the next situation.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+StarBrand]

....As I said, it sounds like a good idea and I wish it were a good option...but in reality, there's no way you can do this in a few minutes AT ALL.

Really???!!?? You and I do it all the time.

 

We look up a cache on the internet - peek at the map. Hop in our cars and drive to the location. I see in the forums that many make good use of a PAF network while on the way to the scene. We find the cache and move on to another one.

 

Especially in urban environments - it rarely takes much more than a few minutes for all that to happen.

 

Ok, if it were so easy, how long did it take you to figure out how to contact a cache owner? How long did it take you to even find a cache? How long did it take you to figure out how to use a GPS so they had some kind of idea where to start the search (or were you guessing they'd be smart enough to figure out that you can search by zip code or map)? Add to this that you'd need more than a few officers learning all of this, you'd need someone willing to teach these officers (unless you truly believe the officers will just open the site and have it figured out in "minutes").

 

Think about it for a bit and then let me know how far off I am....

 

But wait, we still need to get the owner/previous finder to make the trip down and verify that it's certainly a cache. We need to track them down, ask them to leave whatever they may be doing and hotfoot it to the scene. Or were we just thinking the officers would see there is indeed a cache nearby and assume the suspect item is it? What about a mystery cache, a multi?

 

You seem to think the officers are automatically going to KNOW all about caching...learning that ALONE would take several hours or more...without help from a veteran cacher. We do need to look at the BIG picture and not just think that all officers will magically be educated and ready for the next situation.

hmmmmm duh!!

Of course they will have to trained. If they are to use this route - that much seemed too obvious to mention. I've already done as much for several local Law enforcement agencies.

[+Rockin Roddy]

hmmmmm duh!!

Of course they will have to trained. If they are to use this route - that much seemed too obvious to mention. I've already done as much for several local Law enforcement agencies.

 

During that "DUH" moment, did you consider that none of these officers would likely be willing to take the time out of their off-duty hours to do this or did you suppose we'd be having t PAY the officers for the few hours of learning time? Add that up for X amount of officers and let me know what you come up with as a payment for this. Then, realize how this would actually likely play out.

 

How many officers should we get together for this? How about the bomb squad? How many jurisdictions are we talking about? Maybe the state police as well? How about the security guards? Maybe we'd better bring in all the property owners as well? What about just asking the citizens to learn so they don't make false reports?

 

Your "a few minutes" comment doesn't fit, the idea, although a good thought, won't work as well as you imagine...but I'm done pointing out the holes in the idea. I believe my point was made very nicely!

[+Rockin Roddy]

For the record, I too have worked with local LEO, training them to what a cache looks like, how cachers act etc. Do I believe for a second that training will make a difference when a call about a suspicious package comes in? No. I was more interested in helping our fellow cachers avoid being questioned. In the situation described by the OP, I HIGHLY doubt that my training would be taken into consideration while the bomb squad comes out to play...

[+GeoGeeBee]

Maybe we need more caches like this one:

 

GC1C9EQ

 

It's in the parking lot of a police substation! I bet all of the police officers who work in that station now know at least a little something about geocaching.

[+StarBrand]

For the record, I too have worked with local LEO, training them to what a cache looks like, how cachers act etc. Do I believe for a second that training will make a difference when a call about a suspicious package comes in? No. I was more interested in helping our fellow cachers avoid being questioned. In the situation described by the OP, I HIGHLY doubt that my training would be taken into consideration while the bomb squad comes out to play...

Finally - there we go!!! You seem to be getting my point now.

 

We as Geocachers need to help them understand that it may (just maybe) be beneficial for them to actually put that training into "consideration" during such an incident. Thus the point of all my posts herein!!