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World based maps for DeLorme


snow_rules
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Or 3) he had noting of use that he liked and decided to do so out of necessity. I highly doubt that, given many have stated making maps is hard work, the guy did it for fun, but could be mistaken.

 

btw, someone looking for "fun" could also make maps for the DeLorme line...for the fun or because hey, they can!

You are right. You are mistaken.

 

And it seems to me that it would be difficult to make said maps for Delorme without first purchasing a program in the $700-1500 range. And in THIS case would be doing it out of necessity since Delorme has yet to do it.

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Or 3) he had noting of use that he liked and decided to do so out of necessity. I highly doubt that, given many have stated making maps is hard work, the guy did it for fun, but could be mistaken.

 

btw, someone looking for "fun" could also make maps for the DeLorme line...for the fun or because hey, they can!

You are right. You are mistaken.

 

And it seems to me that it would be difficult to make said maps for Delorme without first purchasing a program in the $700-1500 range. And in THIS case would be doing it out of necessity since Delorme has yet to do it.

 

Yep, I bet the guy who made those free maps had access to a free software too?

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I think you are missing the point.

You are probably right!

 

Regardless of DeLorme's business goals and decisions thereof,

which I understand that you think could be better, can it be expressed more simply?

 

To help me out in achieving that end (getting the point),

can I get a simple yes or no (without restating all that in the previous post)?

 

Yes, we (Canadians) are better off with the nothing that we had last year?

 

No, we are not better off with the new maps (recent street vector and soon to be rasterized topos) than before?

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Yes, we (Canadians) are better off with the nothing that we had last year?

 

No, we are not better off with the new maps (recent street vector and soon to be rasterized topos) than before?

 

What is with you guys??? Man, it is crazy. All I'm pointing out is that at the moment, it does not make logical sense to buy a Delorme unit in Canada. Whenever Delorme brings aerial imagery and vector maps to Canada, then it will. Basically there is no point to buy one here and now.

 

Would you buy a Delorme if you lived in Canada?

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...Man, it is crazy. All I'm pointing out is that at the moment, it does not make logical sense to buy a Delorme unit in Canada.
So the Canadians like Garmin better? Just because Garmin has maps available already that are better (up to date, vector based, higher resolution) than the yet-to-be-released DeLorme product (older, raster-based, lower resolution)? Garmin sells their version and Ibycus is available for free, but DeLorme has nothing for them today anyhow?

 

Maine should invade Canada, bomb 'em back to the stone age. Bunch of plaid wearing orange haters!

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You guys will defend Delorme to the ends of the earth, regardless of what they do. It is ridiculous sometimes.

Red,

 

Recent example.

 

I'm also to the point I'm done in here. I have better things to do.

 

There you go.

 

But I'm 100% correct. I only discuss true facts. I have zero brand loyalty. Are you doing the same?

Edited by Red90
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Now that the PN40/30 device can use the Navionics SD cards you can get more detail maps of an area that the normal maps from DeLorme don't cover. If the other regional maps are like the US/Canada maps from Navionics the do show detail down to the normal street detail. Although you won't be able to route with the maps at least it show where the roads are located.

Not all the Navionics maps have been ported over to use on DeLorme GPS units. The ones that have are on this list:

http://www.navionics.com/HMPremium09CompatiblePlotters.asp

 

In any case, it looks like they have outdoors maps for Europe, although they have not been ported to the DeLorme platform:

http://www.navionics.com/OutdoorCatalog.asp

Edited by JDiablo
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You guys will defend Delorme to the ends of the earth, regardless of what they do. It is ridiculous sometimes.

Red,

 

Recent example.

 

I'm also to the point I'm done in here. I have better things to do.

 

There you go.

 

But I'm 100% correct. I only discuss true facts. I have zero brand loyalty. Are you doing the same?

For zero brand loyalty, quite an anti-DeLorme rant here:

 

I'll add that it is quite a sad state of affairs that Delorme has not yet released a Canadian topo set... Ibycus was able to do the entire country in Garmin format in his spare time, by himself with reverse engineered 3rd party software..... All in a couple of weeks.

 

Now, since I have failed to evoke a simple yes or no answer, perhaps an essay response to the following:

 

As compared to a year ago, how have DeLorme's actions, or inactions, caused me harm?

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grumpy moderator note Why is it that every time I have to step in to try to bring logic and reason back to a thread that the same people are the ones dragging it off track?

 

The OP wasn't really a question as much as it was an announcement/commercial and that's kind of uncool on its own. The pile-up on the dude that pointed out that this wasn't the end-all really wasn't called for.

 

Reminder: Be nice. Be focused. This is my second warning in this thread. The next time I intervene it will be with warnings, closings, and/or suspensions.

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What ever it is from DeLorme, it will never be good enough for some.
I'd just like to point out that, personally, I'm having an absolute blast downloading tons of color satellite maps (the DOSQQ or IBMBBQ or whatever they call the things) for my new PN-30! Took me a little reading to get the "hang" of doing it efficiently but now that I've mastered my preferred methodology, all I can say is...

 

16GB is NOT big enough!!! *Muahahahahahahaha!!!*

 

DO YOU HEAR ME ROCKIN' RODDY??? NOT... BIG... ENOUGH!!!

 

Not big enough? Sounds like you're ready for more cards LOL Easy, my friend, you have a full year. Don't wear yourself out too fast. ;):) Keep us informed on how you progress!!

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Navonics maps are nice! But, can you get just a small region or do you have to buy an entire mapset? The reason I ask, I go fishing with a buddy & his boat has a Lowrance fish finder & GPSr. He ONLY fishes just the 2 nearby lakes which aren't very huge but still he would like to get the detailed maps for the lake (currently he just uses the basemap).

 

It appear he needs to spend ~$200 for an entire mapset for all the lakes of all of North America, even though he'd never use 98% of them ;)

 

Maybe I'm overlooking an option to request just a map segment(?)

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...can you get just a small region or do you have to buy an entire mapset? ...Maybe I'm overlooking an option to request just a map segment(?)
I don't think you're overlooking anything. The SD cards cover large areas.

 

Navionics Silver Charts (Only available in US & Canada, $129USD) are entry-level marine charts covering the entire continental US, Great Lakes and Bahamas or, entire coastal Canada and Great Lakes all on a single preprogrammed cartridge. Silver Charts provide best zoom range of up to 1/2NM and depth contours of up to 150' feet or less; Silver Charts do not provide port information. Gold+ Charts (Available worldwide, $199USD) are also marine charts and are available in XL9-size regions (and S-size in some areas) and provide best zoom range of up to 1/8NM, include enhanced port service information with phone numbers, major coastal roads, wrecks, and free (with purchase and mail-in coupon for US waters) high-definition fishing detail for locating offshore drop-offs, ledges and reefs for serious fishing.
Source: http://www.navionics.com/PCSoftwareFAQs.as...ewCategoryID=33 Edited by lee_rimar
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Now that the PN40/30 device can use the Navionics SD cards you can get more detail maps of an area that the normal maps from DeLorme don't cover. If the other regional maps are like the US/Canada maps from Navionics the do show detail down to the normal street detail...
Though this thread has wandered into several other areas, I think the original post is mistaken.

 

- Navionics lists only their water navigation charts as compatible with the PN-series.

- Navionics Discovery Series (land-coverage maps) are not available for the US/Canada.

- Navionics doesn't list Discovery Series maps as compatible with DeLorme.

 

I'm basing the above on information from Navionics website and those of Navionics resellers. If snow-rules or anyone has information on OTHER Navionics maps that cover land areas AND are compatible with the PN-series, please post the correct information here.

 

---

Edit to add: I'm not knocking DeLorme or Navioincs here. The charts are great for what they do cover -- I just can't find the maps that snow-rules suggests are available...

Edited by lee_rimar
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I thought I saw one of the feature of the Gold Marine Chart that is had costal roads but now that I look again it isn't listed as a feature, so maybe I was mistaken.

 

Edit - Okay the South America ones show that it has the costal roads while Europe doens't mention it (maybe since the have a land & sea option)

Edited by snow_rules
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Okay, coastal roads in South America would be at least some land coverage previously unavailable on DeLorme PN-series. But are you talking about Navionics chart 18XG? I can't find any reference to road coverage on this one either. EDIT: I find some resellers mention "major coast roads" on the Gold+ charts, but I couldn't find it when I looked on Navionics' website. This sounds like it may be no better than the "base map" you get in a GPS, and here it might only be enough to get you to and from the harbor.

 

BTW: The South America SD card, 18XG sells for between $175 to $200 depending on who you buy it from. Navionics offers the same chart for the iPhone (downloadable, no SD card) for $20: http://appshopper.com/navigation/gold-south-america-2

Edited by lee_rimar
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...can you get just a small region or do you have to buy an entire mapset? ...Maybe I'm overlooking an option to request just a map segment(?)
I don't think you're overlooking anything. The SD cards cover large areas.
However, if you have a different device than the DeLorme PN-series originally mentioned in this thread, the same charts are available in smaller sections for more modest pricing...

 

http://appshopper.com/search/?search=navionics

 

My apologies to both the OP and the mods if this seems too much of a thread hijack, but NordicMan did ask...

Edited by lee_rimar
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...can anyone tell me, how long before the first mapping handheld GPS from Garmin came out? Was it a year after they released their first handheld? Two?
No, it was pretty much simultaneous -- or you could say Garmin was doing mapping GPS units even before they were doing handhelds.

 

The GPS 12 and GPS III were both introduced in 1997; either could arguably be called Garmin's first HANDHELD navigators, and the GPS III did include mapping capability. However, the first "PORTABLE" with a moving map from Garmin was the GPS 95 for aviation. It weighed over a pound but could be carried in one hand.

 

Sources:

TIMELINE: http://www8.garmin.com/buzz/timeline/

GPS III info: https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=72#featureTab

GPS 95 manual: http://www8.garmin.com/manuals/GPS95STD_PilotsGuide.pdf

Edited by lee_rimar
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grumpy moderator note Why is it that every time I have to step in to try to bring logic and reason back to a thread that the same people are the ones dragging it off track?

 

The OP wasn't really a question as much as it was an announcement/commercial and that's kind of uncool on its own. The pile-up on the dude that pointed out that this wasn't the end-all really wasn't called for.

 

Reminder: Be nice. Be focused. This is my second warning in this thread. The next time I intervene it will be with warnings, closings, and/or suspensions.

Coincidentally, I received a bona fide request for help with a real question by means of PM earlier this evening.

Being the sweet guy that I am, I responded in kind.

 

However, the message of this post is that PM is not my favored method of asking for help,

as opposed to direct post, for these reasons:

1. It is more likely that others than I may have the answer, or a better one, and they are excluded by PM,

2. Those without the answer, but may take advantage of it, lose out on the learning experience when the PM mode is used.

Additionally:

3. This question was DeLorme PN-40 specific and posing in the DeLorme forum will have a greater opportunity for successful answer as their are more DeLorme knowlegeable participants there than her.

4. I am much less likely to get suspended for improper posting there and therefore more likely to add an answer, if I have one, over there.

 

I do suggest that the quetion to me via PM be posted over there for all those participants to read:

http://forums.delorme.com/index.php

Furthermore, you most likely receive further answers,

and if they are different than mine,

they are most likely more correct than mind,

which is better for the OP,

and me as then I could learn too. :lol:

Edited by Team CowboyPapa
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NordicMan, I thought you were leaning towards a Palm Pre? Did this tip you towards an iPhone or did you already jump?

 

Oh yeah I'm a proud owner of a slick new Palm Pre & loving every minute of it so far! I'm playing with the two existing apps for Geocaching and they are pretty nice, but am hoping the "official" Geocaching app pops it's head up soon!

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grumpy moderator note The OP wasn't really a question as much as it was an announcement/commercial and that's kind of uncool on its own.

 

Why is making an announcement uncool? There are post all the time for the G unit saying the patch or that patch are available. That sounds like an announcement to me but I never see anything say that they shouldn't be posted. Or I see advertisements for gps filedepot and never a note from the mods stating that isn't cool. Maybe a double standard?

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What I don't get is if you don't have a DeLorme why would you even read this thread?
I can't answer for anyone else, but if you're asking me: I do have a DeLorme PN-40, and I am interested in map coverage outside of USA. I'd really like a good ROAD map of England - even without topo data or nautical charts.

 

So the title caught my interest, even though (sadly) it turned out to be something else.

 

Some of my other input to the thread has been to answer specific questions from other participants and comment on Navionics charts in general. Is that okay?

Edited by lee_rimar
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Lee - I know you have PN unit and your comments are always welcomed. I which we had better World maps for the unit myself, although I would probably not need them. Based upon the the hotmap series (again US and Canada only) the Navionics SDs do have roads down to the detail level. How that translate to the Marine and the costal roads I can say for sure since I don't have one of those cards (being in the middle of the US with no coast in site).

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grumpy moderator note The OP wasn't really a question as much as it was an announcement/commercial and that's kind of uncool on its own.

 

Why is making an announcement uncool? There are post all the time for the G unit saying the patch or that patch are available. That sounds like an announcement to me but I never see anything say that they shouldn't be posted. Or I see advertisements for gps filedepot and never a note from the mods stating that isn't cool. Maybe a double standard?

Announcements of free products don't run afoul of section 8 of the forum guidelines. Commercials do. Since you (presumably) have no personal interest in the Navionics product and it wasn't flagrantly "spammy", I let it stand.

 

To be clear, the OP was merely close to the line. It was the "dumbest, backward" thing (and resulting pile-on) that earned the reminder to be nice.

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What I don't get is if you don't have a DeLorme why would you even read this thread? I sure don't read a thread that the subject line has my Garmin doesn't work or how do a make my Lowrance do this.

 

..I don't have one, and living in Canada it will probably be a while before I *personally* would put one on the top of my list lol. But, I like to stay apprised of newest features & technology for every brand as much as I can. After all, how could I recommend any specific model if I don't have awareness of what is currently available?

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... It was the "dumbest, backward" thing (and resulting pile-on) that earned the reminder to be nice.
Y'think it'd be any different if Red90 had worded it a little differently?

 

Because basically, I think his concern deserves some discussion -- other than being piled on by others trying to see who can be the nastiest, or how for they can twist what he said all out of shape.

 

Points already made: There's good vector data available for making Canadian topo maps. Garmin offers topo maps for Canada for a price. Ibcyus offers a different version for free. That's fine for Garmin users.

 

Not mentioned in this thread yet: DeLorme ALSO has a worldwide digital basemap...

 

http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML//DELibeCCt...p?section=10640

 

... but it's available only as a professional rather than consumer product.

 

So it IS a little odd that there's no "consumer grade" DeLorme topo product covering Canada - or anywhere else outside of the USA. And it's disappointing that their first offering in that area sounds like it will be raster imagery for Topo 8. I'm not saying that's "useless" -- but saying "something is better than nothing" is an awfully weak sales point, especially when DeLorme advertises that they do have better data available in a different market segment.

 

Even though I'm not really interested in Canada, I do travel to England fairly often. I'd buy "DeLorme Streets+Topo UK" if it was priced right and could load data to my PN-40. They do have the data -- I just don't understand why they haven't packaged it as a product for PN-users yet. It could sell either as an option product for existing users, or as GPS+map bundles for each country where they'd like to market their products.

 

This is not a rant -- it's a serious "wish-list" comment for DeLorme that I've mentioned on their forums as well.

 

Why do you think they haven't made such a product yet?

Edited by lee_rimar
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It's possible that the potential sales numbers aren't interesting to them yet. Just a guess.

 

DeLorme Street Atlas USA actually contains a really good world basemap. Most users don't even know it's there because they've never tried to scroll the map outside the US. It's a basemap so outside North America it only contains city names and major highways, no street grids. But that's exactly what you expect from a basemap.

 

...ken...

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What I don't get is if you don't have a DeLorme why would you even read this thread?

 

1) I might be interested in one, if their "package" was better than the current Garmin models. In the USA, they offer really nice mapping and aerial imagery with good user support. These things are desirable.

 

2) I'm asked quite a lot about recommendations for GPS purchases. Being current on all models and what might be available in the near term allows me to provide factual and up to date information.

 

3) I can just about guarantee that Delorme employees are reading this thread. Maybe they will feed my comments back into someone that makes decisions, even if the "tone" was not acceptable to the moderators...

 

Oh yah, I promised raster/vector comparisons.. :D I will strive to remember tonight.

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What I don't get is if you don't have a DeLorme why would you even read this thread?

Well, it's been recomended that I look into getting one of these, so...

 

Let me ask you this: Wouldn't it be prudent that I did research the product and did the homework before a purchase or should I just blindly drink the koolaid on faith and jump in? And then what it it doesn't live up the the expectations presented? I use GPS units for some serious situations, I'd rather know that a piece of kit I was relying on wasn't going to fail in the field.

 

Just saying...

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What I don't get is if you don't have a DeLorme why would you even read this thread?

Well, it's been recomended that I look into getting one of these, so...

 

Let me ask you this: Wouldn't it be prudent that I did research the product and did the homework before a purchase or should I just blindly drink the koolaid on faith and jump in? And then what it it doesn't live up the the expectations presented? I use GPS units for some serious situations, I'd rather know that a piece of kit I was relying on wasn't going to fail in the field.

 

Just saying...

 

I'm sure the question wasn't meant to dissaude others from LEARNING, I would guess it was more a question of IF you don't have interest in the unit, why shoot barbs at it? Seemed to me (and possibly the one asking the question) that some were bashing instead of trying to learn...maybe, in the future, if those who did seem to be bashing tried a more "friendly" approach to posting, the results would be better?

 

And you know me, just saying.... :DB)

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I've chosen a very up to date Raster (2006 Vancouver) for the comparison. Most are not this up to date. I've left the raster at the as scanned Cantopo 300 dpi to avoid pixelization effect. The quality of these rasters is superb, being almost nicer than the printed maps. On the right is Ibycus Topo in Mapsource 6.15. I had to stretch things to match the sizes, so there is pixelization from what is seen on the computer.

mapcompare.jpg

 

And then we have the same area screenshots from the Colorado with and without shaded relief.

ibycus-2.jpgibycuswithrelief.jpg

 

In regard to size, the Raster map sheet is 31.2 MB and 761 kB in Ibycus Topo. Topo Canada does the 16 map sheets at 19.2 MB (with routing and DEM data).

Edited by Red90
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I'm not covinced vectorized imagery is the panacea. If I had to see this on my PN, I may as well have bought a Garmin. I'm of the opinion when imagery becomes vectorized, you lose significant detail. I chose the DeLorme because it provided me the USGS quada as drawn. Having aerials is gravy. So, it seems the business decision was to use one style imagery for imported data rather than go with multiple formats. Smoothing is not necessarily a good thing if you do it at the loss of some detail some of us desire.

 

Case in point: Left Delorme screenshot - Right Vectorized

VectorizedResult.jpg

Edited by TotemLake
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That's an excellent example of trying to vectorize textures ... badly. On the left it's obvious it's trees. On the right it looks like humpy bumpy terrain.

 

Are such vectorized maps as your example on the right readily available? The only vector maps I've seen just show relevant stuff so you don't have to worry about confusing trees with lumpy terrain. Even the vectorized topos I've seen make no attempt to include ground cover except as a colour to distinguish areas that are normally treed from areas that aren't.

 

...ken...

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No. This was done by on-line software as an example of what the vendor's software can do. I couldn't find readily available and inexpensive (forget about free) aerials for suitable use for GIS mapping and the software available to do it ranges in pricing and level of quality.

 

The point is and has been, as bad an idea technically as some folks think it is, it was likely a business decision to go with readily available rasterized data that didn't need conversion before it could be sold as a product. DeLorme did it and packaged it into one box with nothing furher needed. No third party software, no gleaning the Internet for imagery.

 

Until someone can come out with a database of the vectorized areial imagery that doesn't break the bank, DeLorme went in the correct direction to make a profit. Of course that is my opinion and doesn't represent any official decisions made in the usage.

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Vectorized? Panacea? "I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

I don't think anyone was talking about taking raster imagery and vectorizing it -- nor suggesting vectorized images were a panacea (best for everything) option -- until you threw that very contrived example in.

 

SOME types of imagery work very well as rasters. Aerial photography comes to mind. Other types of data, that are easily expressed as a collection of lines (street maps, topo contours), are better if they're created as vector images to begin with.

 

The overlap -- where all you have to start with is a raster image but you "vectorize" it by trying to identify lines -- sometimes works well and sometimes doesn't. Your example falls into the latter category.

 

But I don't think anyone suggested vectorizing raster data as a panacea (or even a good option). Either you misunderstood something earlier in the thread or I missed it completely.

Edited by lee_rimar
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The topo is one type of data that's being talked about. But if one is going to gripe about using one data type over the other, the entire picture of what is being used should also be looked at. It's not about being technically correct or feasible. I could care less one way or the other. It's about a business model that was chosen and being criticized for it without the criticizer knowing the facts behind the decision.

 

I merely pointed out vectorizing outside data or using outside vectorized data doesn't meet what appeared to be a business decision, which was to use one data type (rasterized) and make it work with their software and hardware and then pull from other similar pools of rasterized data.

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The point is and has been, as bad an idea technically as some folks think it is, it was likely a business decision to go with readily available rasterized data that didn't need conversion before it could be sold as a product. DeLorme did it and packaged it into one box with nothing furher needed. No third party software, no gleaning the Internet for imagery.

I don't know whose point you think that is.

 

The point is: No conversion from raster to vector is necessary. As has already been pointed out multiple times in this thread, the proper vector databases already exist in Canada and are freely accessable.

 

It's that fact that makes DeLorme's efforts, in this very specific case, look rather half-hearted.

 

As far as the business decision, do you have inside information that the rest of us are not privy to? If not, it's nothing but unsubstantiated speculation (more commonly known as a strawman, or maybe a smelly old red herring).

 

Now, if what you are saying is that DeLorme simply decided to cheap out rather than doing a decent map product in order to try to cheat some bucks out of the unwary, that's probably an even worse criticism of their effort than any of the rest of us have made. All we've done is point out that the product could have been better. We never accused them of greed. We have no inside information so we've avoided making any comments on their motivation.

 

...ken...

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The point is and has been, as bad an idea technically as some folks think it is, it was likely a business decision to go with readily available rasterized data that didn't need conversion before it could be sold as a product. DeLorme did it and packaged it into one box with nothing furher needed. No third party software, no gleaning the Internet for imagery.

I don't know whose point you think that is.

 

The point is: No conversion from raster to vector is necessary. As has already been pointed out multiple times in this thread, the proper vector databases already exist in Canada and are freely accessable.

 

It's that fact that makes DeLorme's efforts, in this very specific case, look rather half-hearted.

 

As far as the business decision, do you have inside information that the rest of us are not privy to? If not, it's nothing but unsubstantiated speculation (more commonly known as a strawman, or maybe a smelly old red herring).

 

Now, if what you are saying is that DeLorme simply decided to cheap out rather than doing a decent map product in order to try to cheat some bucks out of the unwary, that's probably an even worse criticism of their effort than any of the rest of us have made. All we've done is point out that the product could have been better. We never accused them of greed. We have no inside information so we've avoided making any comments on their motivation.

 

...ken...

I do believe I put in that post it was just my opinion.

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I guess the question comes down to is it available in a pool for it to be pulled from the same as the US aerials are? If so, it's a matter of growing the storage and prepping it for use.

 

I just saw the other thread where Garmin finally caught up and provided an update which allows rasters to be easily loaded as well. Good. It's about time.

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I guess the question comes down to is it available in a pool for it to be pulled from the same as the US aerials are?

 

No, there is no open source of aerials for Canada. Aerials that do exist only cover major cities, for the most part. Google is the only easy source and they have Mr. Lipe protecting their interests.

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