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World based maps for DeLorme


snow_rules
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Now that the PN40/30 device can use the Navionics SD cards you can get more detail maps of an area that the normal maps from DeLorme don't cover. If the other regional maps are like the US/Canada maps from Navionics the do show detail down to the normal street detail. Although you won't be able to route with the maps at least it show where the roads are located.

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Now that the PN40/30 device can use the Navionics SD cards you can get more detail maps of an area that the normal maps from DeLorme don't cover. If the other regional maps are like the US/Canada maps from Navionics the do show detail down to the normal street detail. Although you won't be able to route with the maps at least it show where the roads are located.

 

THANKS for posting this, good info here!

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Raster topos!!! That is one of the dumbest, backward things I have ever heard. All Canadian topo maps have been in vector format for at least 10 years, PLUS, the data is free. The raster data set (which is also free) must be in the terabyte size. Raster topos are horrid on a GPS.

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I'll add that it is quite a sad state of affairs that Delorme has not yet released a Canadian topo set... Ibycus was able to do the entire country in Garmin format in his spare time, by himself with reverse engineered 3rd party software..... All in a couple of weeks.

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Raster topos!!! That is one of the dumbest, backward things I have ever heard. All Canadian topo maps have been in vector format for at least 10 years, PLUS, the data is free. The raster data set (which is also free) must be in the terabyte size. Raster topos are horrid on a GPS.

So much for the suggestion regarding the elimination of the venemous rants:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=232330

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So much for the suggestion regarding the elimination of the venemous rants:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=232330

 

Huh???

 

It is not a rant. It is a valid opinion. Raster topos take up large amounts of memory, do not zoom well, slow down the processor. They make no sense at all, especially when all of the data is already available and free in vector format.

 

Raster display is useful for things like aerial imagery, not maps.

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Raster topos!!! That is one of the dumbest, backward things I have ever heard. All Canadian topo maps have been in vector format for at least 10 years, PLUS, the data is free. The raster data set (which is also free) must be in the terabyte size. Raster topos are horrid on a GPS.

So much for the suggestion regarding the elimination of the venemous rants:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=232330

How would you state the facts Red90 shared with us differently?

 

...ken...

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Raster topos!!! That is one of the dumbest, backward things I have ever heard. All Canadian topo maps have been in vector format for at least 10 years, PLUS, the data is free. The raster data set (which is also free) must be in the terabyte size. Raster topos are horrid on a GPS.

So much for the suggestion regarding the elimination of the venemous rants:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=232330

How would you state the facts Red90 shared with us differently?

 

...ken...

10-4, something that is available for one to accept and use if they wish, such as raster topos,

is worse than nothing.

 

Copy that?

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Raster topos!!! That is one of the dumbest, backward things I have ever heard. All Canadian topo maps have been in vector format for at least 10 years, PLUS, the data is free. The raster data set (which is also free) must be in the terabyte size. Raster topos are horrid on a GPS.

So much for the suggestion regarding the elimination of the venemous rants:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=232330

How would you state the facts Red90 shared with us differently?

 

...ken...

As distasteful as it is to you guys, please point out any other GPS with the built-in flexibility out of the box one box solution for loading the same data sets (and I mean all of them) as the DeLorme units have without having to look at third party software bits to install, without having to go look for the free stuff to work with.

 

Again, you may not like it, but it's happening and nobody else is keeping up. Memory is cheap and DeLorme is taking advantage of it.

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Ibycus was able to do the entire country in Garmin format in his spare time, by himself with reverse engineered 3rd party software..... All in a couple of weeks.

 

I'll add that it is quite a sad state of affairs that Garmin can't provide the maps and that it required some individual to do it for them (probably without pay).

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Memory is cheap and DeLorme is taking advantage of it.

 

Let's get realistic here. It would be impossible to have all of Canada in Raster format on your computer and certainly very little would fit on a GPS.

 

My point is that it is a very bad decision.

 

The vector method makes much more sense. All of the data is freely and easily available in vector format. In addition, vector format road data is very up to date. The roads on the raster topo maps are 20 to 50 years out of date. They have been completely useless for road or trail data for a very long time. The only usefull thing on the federal topo maps is topographic, water and vegetation data. When you use the raster versions, you are stuck looking at a 40 year old map....

 

You guys will defend Delorme to the ends of the earth, regardless of what they do. It is ridiculous sometimes.

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Maybe you don't have the right GPS? Rasters work fine on the PN40/30

 

I used raster maps on an iQue 3600 for years ago. It has a MUCH larger and MUCH higher resolution screen so was much more use than the little baby Delorme GPS. It was cute, but vector mapping is much, much better on a GPS.

 

You see, I actually have both raster and vector topographic maps for Canada and have had them for many years. I have used them both on computers and on GPS units. I'm not making this up in the virtual world. I have real, first hand experience....

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Memory is cheap and DeLorme is taking advantage of it.

 

Let's get realistic here. It would be impossible to have all of Canada in Raster format on your computer and certainly very little would fit on a GPS.

 

My point is that it is a very bad decision.

 

The vector method makes much more sense. All of the data is freely and easily available in vector format. In addition, vector format road data is very up to date. The roads on the raster topo maps are 20 to 50 years out of date. They have been completely useless for road or trail data for a very long time. The only usefull thing on the federal topo maps is topographic, water and vegetation data. When you use the raster versions, you are stuck looking at a 40 year old map....

 

You guys will defend Delorme to the ends of the earth, regardless of what they do. It is ridiculous sometimes.

Red, your glass is half empty. It isn't the way you want it so it's a bad thing. You attack DeLorme to no end and it is ridiculous the ends you go to to do this all of the time.

 

You haven't met my challenge to produce a single other brand that can do anything like this out of the box as a one box solution.

 

Edited to add:

 

Let's go back to why I defend what I defend when I defend it.

 

I defend that which I think is a good tool for my usage. It doesn't have to meet your needs. It just has to meet mine. Mine. Get it? M. I. N. E. Mine. It meets my needs. It does what I expect it to do and it does this very well. Garmin didn't meet that need. Magellan didn't meet that need and Lowrance wasn't even close to meeting that need. DeLorme did and did it in a very unique way which intrigued me enough to not spend hard earned cash on something I wasn't going to be happy with. Why on this green and blue creation you have such a huge problem with that when folks want to talk about it is beyond me.

Edited by TotemLake
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Holy, this thread got way bigger overnight than I ever would have anticipated!

 

Thanks embra for posting the link to the comment from Caleb.

 

Just because Red90 was more colourful than some of you wanted him to be when he was expressing his opinion of raster maps, does not mean that his opinion is wrong. I am curious aproximately what % of Canada in this format could be stored on a PN-40 with a 32gb card? Because let me tell ya, I can fit a whole lot of real estate on my 4gb card in vector (as in Garmin) format. So much so that I can choose to have TWO sets of Topo Canada on my GPS for a given area, one (Ibycus) because it is more accurate (usually) , and the other (v.4) because of the shaded relief. This along with City Nav for the entirety of North America etc, etc.

 

Here's what is probably a stupid question: do the PNs have the ability to display BOTH vector and raster data? And if so, why chose the raster over vector when introducing maps for Canada, particularly if both sets of data are free from the gov't?

 

However, I think it would be cool to make your own maps with xmap or the ArcMap tool, though no matter how freakishly huge they were. I just personally don't have that kind of money for what would basically be an experiment for me.

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I am curious aproximately what % of Canada in this format could be stored on a PN-40 with a 32gb card?

I am curious approximately what % of Canada you need to have available in your hand at any given time. Sure, it's impressive to say you can hold some huge percentage of the land area all at once, but how often will you be visiting the farthest reaches of the country without stopping in a place where you can swap out a dataset you don't need anymore and swap in one that you do?

 

Can you honestly say that when you're geocaching at home in BC, you need to have topos of PEI & the Northern Territories available in real-time? Let's be realistic about what can be done vs. what needs to be done here. Or is this more about bragging rights (I'd use a different phrase, but it'd get me banned from the forums)?

 

The DeLorme devices do layer vector data on top of raster images. Only vector data is available for Canada right now.

Edited by dakboy
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For the record, I would agree that vector maps are better than rasters, but I would regard rasters as better than nothing.

 

I can only guess why they are making rasters available soon rather than vectors...and that guess would be that they are able to bring rasters to market quicker than vectors. Perhaps vectors are planned for release later. But I'm only speculating. I have to presume that, given the clear advantages of vectorized data over rasterized, there has to be *some* reason. I occasionally encounter some reasoning at DeLorme that doesn't mesh with mine, but I don't see much dumb.

 

Regarding the storage requirements of raster vs. vector: no contest, not even close. Here is a comparative table of storage requirements for various rasters and the vectorized Topo7 data. Storage requirements vary by type, but for the USGS 1:24K quads it was about a 10:1 factor.

 

The PNs do show both, and even present a hybridized view of topo contours superimposed on raster imagery. But yeah, if you want to have coverage for a large area on your unit, you want vectors.

 

(Edit: the link I posted goes to the first post in the thread; my table is in the second post. Don't know why the link isn't going directly to the right post.)

Edited by embra
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Raster topos <snip> make no sense at all, especially when all of the data is already available and free in vector format.

 

Raster display is useful for things like aerial imagery, not maps.

 

I understand your point, but I do think there is one place where they make a lot of sense. It's great to have the same map in hand (e.g., a USGS 7.5' topo quad) and on your GPS. It is the fastest way to determine your position on said map.

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I understand your point, but I do think there is one place where they make a lot of sense. It's great to have the same map in hand (e.g., a USGS 7.5' topo quad) and on your GPS. It is the fastest way to determine your position on said map.

For Canada, the EXACT same data is available in vector format as the printed maps. It is very easy to compare the GPS to the printed maps. To expand on this...All of the data being used in all the Topo map product originates from the Federal 1:50000 topographic maps other than roads. Those maps were scanned and vectorized by the federal government and that data is what everyone uses. The shape of the topo lines and the water features is identical on all vector maps and the printed maps.

 

So the decision to offer rasterized topos is bad and it would have been a better decision to

continue to offer nothing.

No, they should offer vector maps. It is easy enough to do. The whole country is in a database in Arcview format. They already have arcview/Delorme conversion programs built. Just do it...... Offering raster mas will just give them a bad reputation and hurt them trying to move into the Canadian market. I personally know what raster Canadian maps look like on a GPS and it is horrid. They are not of a high enough resolution to be useful. And, as I stated earlier, the road data is so horribly out of date to turn anyone off.

Edited by Red90
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Red, your glass is half empty. It isn't the way you want it so it's a bad thing. You attack DeLorme to no end and it is ridiculous the ends you go to to do this all of the time.

 

You haven't met my challenge to produce a single other brand that can do anything like this out of the box as a one box solution.

 

I attack Delorme to no end? When and where am I doing that? Please provide links.

 

They produce a fine GPS with a lot of great features. I have nothing bad to say about the Delorme GPS units. The only thing I may have said about them is that they do not offer decent mapping outside of the USA, so if you want to leave the USA, it is not a good choice. This is what is called a FACT, it is not an attack.

 

I do not disagree that other GPS units cannot do these things and never have. But it can only do these things within the bounds of the USA at the current time.

 

On the topic of this thread....If they offered Canadian topos in vector format and access to aerial photos for Canada, they would be of great interest to many Canadians.

Edited by Red90
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I understand your point, but I do think there is one place where they make a lot of sense. It's great to have the same map in hand (e.g., a USGS 7.5' topo quad) and on your GPS. It is the fastest way to determine your position on said map.

For Canada, the EXACT same data is available in vector format as the printed maps. It is very easy to compare the GPS to the printed maps.

 

I'd love to see the two compared. Can you post images showing how close a vector can be to a raster topo?

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I am curious aproximately what % of Canada in this format could be stored on a PN-40 with a 32gb card?

 

The geoTIF format maps are around 18 MB per 1:50000 map sheet in the as scanned Federal government 300 dpi format. This will reduce as you go north. So around 1750 sheets for 32 GB. There are somewhere over 6000 sheets for all the country. I'd guess at around 80 GB for the whole country with the size reduction in the north, more if you want to include the 1:250000 sheets as well. The vector maps are around 3 GB for the country.

Edited by Red90
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I'd love to see the two compared. Can you post images showing how close a vector can be to a raster topo?

 

I'll try and do it tonight. I think I need to reload the raster maps to my home computer. I have not used them since Ibycus came out with his maps. Almost all data is the same. The only missing information would be the UTM lines and like I said, the Ibycus maps use current road data.

Edited by Red90
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Red, your glass is half empty. It isn't the way you want it so it's a bad thing. You attack DeLorme to no end and it is ridiculous the ends you go to to do this all of the time.

 

You haven't met my challenge to produce a single other brand that can do anything like this out of the box as a one box solution.

 

I attack Delorme to no end? When and where am I doing that? Please provide links.

 

They produce a fine GPS with a lot of great features. I have nothing bad to say about the Delorme GPS units. The only thing I may have said about them is that they do not offer decent mapping outside of the USA, so if you want to leave the USA, it is not a good choice. This is what is called a FACT, it is not an attack.

 

I do not disagree that other GPS units cannot do these things and never have. But it can only do these things within the bounds of the USA at the current time.

 

On the topic of this thread....If they offered Canadian topos in vector format and access to aerial photos for Canada, they would be of great interest to many Canadians.

I apologize. I misspoke about your attacks on DeLorme.

 

I should have said your backhanded swipes at DeLorme users when they don't want to agree with you.

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I apologize. I misspoke about your attacks on DeLorme.

 

I should have said your backhanded swipes at DeLorme users when they don't want to agree with you.

I've never seen Red90 do that. He simply reacts with annoyance when you choose to ignore the fact that DeLorme's mapping in Canada isn't the same, and isn't nearly as good, as it is for the continental US. And he echoes the annoyance many of us in Canada have that, for that reason, we can't make use of such a versatile tool as the PNs.

 

When it comes to DeLorme's mapping, the glass IS half empty if you don't live or operate in the American lower 48. That's a simple fact. And a perpetual frustration. Especially when some DeLorme evangelists choose to ignore it.

 

Frankly, it would be less annoying if you all would just say, "Nyah, nyah, nyah ... We've got it and you can't have it!!" It would be much easier to deal with.

 

Back to the subject at hand, providing raster maps for Canada when the vector data is freely available is just salt in the wounds, especially when you understand how much mapping expertise exists inside DeLorme. As Red90 said, when a university student can build a complete set of vector topos for all of Canada, including up to date road data ... from FREE government sources ... using amateur-developed tools ... in his spare time ... for FREE download, it's really really hard not to be insulted by DeLorme's half-hearted effort.

 

...ken...

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I should have said your backhanded swipes at DeLorme users when they don't want to agree with you.

Could you please provide some examples? If I have made any personal attacks, it was not intended.

 

As I'm sure you already looked, but to calrify for others, if you search for "Delorme" and my username in these forums, you will see me recommending the PN series for use in the USA many times.

 

I agree with Ken. It would be great to see good maps up here as it would offer a good choice over Garmin.

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I have a PN-40 which is connectable to a computer. I have in the past had a few models of other handheld GPS devices which were not connectable to a computer. IMHO, having connectablility and lots of map options is a great convenience, but not a necessity if I stray a mile or ten off a road.

 

"Yesterday" as this thread evolved I rechecked to see if I had all the available bundled free PN-40 vector maps for Canada loaded in my device. I did not. I loaded them. They consumed about 2/3 of a gigabyte. That's not much for the entire country of Canada, but in the Calgary area seemingly detailed vectorized road maps were included. I panned around Calgary and paused somewhere north of the city center to look at a link from Red90. This link took me back to Geocaching.com and an Internet street map of a cache about a mile from the location of my cursor on the PN-40. Rather amazing coincidence considering that it was 1100 miles away.

 

GC's Intenet map and the Delorme's PN-40 vector map appeared to be using the same database in that Calgary street map location for a cache. So the big cities in Canada may be well covered by my device with street level vectorized data, but it would likely take at least a 32GB SDHC card to include all of Canada in topo format using Delorme's data storage methods. This has not happened yet, and may never happen. But residents of cities in Canada may be surprised to find more routable street level data than they expect after reading this thread.

 

Having said that, I find Red90 quite informative and challenging!

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I am curious approximately what % of Canada you need to have available in your hand at any given time. Sure, it's impressive to say you can hold some huge percentage of the land area all at once, but how often will you be visiting the farthest reaches of the country without stopping in a place where you can swap out a dataset you don't need anymore and swap in one that you do?

 

Can you honestly say that when you're geocaching at home in BC, you need to have topos of PEI & the Northern Territories available in real-time? Let's be realistic about what can be done vs. what needs to be done here. Or is this more about bragging rights (I'd use a different phrase, but it'd get me banned from the forums)?

 

The DeLorme devices do layer vector data on top of raster images. Only vector data is available for Canada right now.

Don't need them, perhaps, but it sure is nice to not have to worry about swapping out maps all the time as I travel around. Or nice to look up the location of your buddy's sister's B&B in PEI or wherever while out on the trail, as an example.

 

I don't understand what sort of bragging rights you would be referring to? That my GPS holds more than yours?? Really? :lol: I have frankly just been trying to research alternatives to Garmin to see what's out there with a perfectly open mind. But since the entire 32gb capacity will be eaten up by only <1/3 of the country worth of Topo maps (thanks Red90), then I am afraid that the PN model is still not a viable challenger up here. Plus, I would still need to buy the xmap software at significant (to me, anyways) cost in order to have imagery on the unit.

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I am curious approximately what % of Canada you need to have available in your hand at any given time. Sure, it's impressive to say you can hold some huge percentage of the land area all at once, but how often will you be visiting the farthest reaches of the country without stopping in a place where you can swap out a dataset you don't need anymore and swap in one that you do?

 

Can you honestly say that when you're geocaching at home in BC, you need to have topos of PEI & the Northern Territories available in real-time? Let's be realistic about what can be done vs. what needs to be done here. Or is this more about bragging rights (I'd use a different phrase, but it'd get me banned from the forums)?

 

The DeLorme devices do layer vector data on top of raster images. Only vector data is available for Canada right now.

Don't need them, perhaps, but it sure is nice to not have to worry about swapping out maps all the time as I travel around. Or nice to look up the location of your buddy's sister's B&B in PEI or wherever while out on the trail, as an example.

 

I don't understand what sort of bragging rights you would be referring to? That my GPS holds more than yours?? Really? :lol: I have frankly just been trying to research alternatives to Garmin to see what's out there with a perfectly open mind. But since the entire 32gb capacity will be eaten up by only <1/3 of the country worth of Topo maps (thanks Red90), then I am afraid that the PN model is still not a viable challenger up here. Plus, I would still need to buy the xmap software at significant (to me, anyways) cost in order to have imagery on the unit.

 

You, as a buyer of the PN series would be given the option to buy the Xmap software for $100...not sure if that's significant to you, but it's still costing about the same as any high-end Garmin. :) A few cards which you then load and have available for a quick interchange doesn't seem all that inconvenient to me, but that's MHO. If you truly need the whole country on your unit, that's 3 cards....

 

BUT, you wouldn't need Xmap for the maps already supplied...I didn't know we were trying to figure out how to load all the maps.

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I'd love to see the two compared. Can you post images showing how close a vector can be to a raster topo?

 

I'll try and do it tonight. I think I need to reload the raster maps to my home computer. I have not used them since Ibycus came out with his maps. Almost all data is the same. The only missing information would be the UTM lines and like I said, the Ibycus maps use current road data.

 

No time last night. I'll try and remember for Sunday...

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.....I didn't know we were trying to figure out how to load all the maps.

It doesn't matter.

What ever it is from DeLorme, it will never be good enough for some.

Last year at this time there was nothing for Canada.

 

Then earlier this year they made available vectorized, routable street maps.

But these were not good enough, a bad decision by DeLorme to offer them - a something that is worse than nothing.

 

Shortly, rasterized topo maps will become available, another bad decision by DeLomre to offer them - sight unseen, these, too, are worse than nothing.

 

All that you can be certain of, RR, is that it's always something.

If it's not one thing, it's another.

But it's always something.

 

Consequently, it is useless to argue as there will be no convincing.

After each response from you, another objection will be conjured up.

Edited by Team CowboyPapa
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What ever it is from DeLorme, it will never be good enough for some.
I'd just like to point out that, personally, I'm having an absolute blast downloading tons of color satellite maps (the DOSQQ or IBMBBQ or whatever they call the things) for my new PN-30! Took me a little reading to get the "hang" of doing it efficiently but now that I've mastered my preferred methodology, all I can say is...

 

16GB is NOT big enough!!! *Muahahahahahahaha!!!*

 

DO YOU HEAR ME ROCKIN' RODDY??? NOT... BIG... ENOUGH!!!

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But these were not good enough, a bad decision by DeLorme to offer them - a something that is worse than nothing.

You make it sound like this is happening in a vacuum. 'Tain't so. It's happening in a highly competitive marketplace.

 

If there were no alternatives out there, something would be better than nothing. For sure.

 

But in a competitive marketplace you can't ever do "something is better than nothing". You gotta do "something at least as good as what's already out there".

 

If DeLorme is going to be taken seriously they for sure gotta do at least as good as a university student in his spare time, never mind the big guns at Navteq and DMTI.

 

...ken...

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It doesn't matter.

What ever it is from DeLorme, it will never be good enough for some.

 

I think you are missing the point. "Not good enough" to make it a better choice over Garmin, where free vectorized topo and street maps are available for the whole country.

 

Delorme makes a very nice GPS. But, what makes it stand out is the availability of aerial photographs and topo maps together. With no aerial photos (AFAIK) and only raster topos, the Garmin products make a better choice for Canada at this time.

 

If I lived in the USA and did not travel abroad, the Delorme units would make sense for a handheld choice instead of Garmin.

 

edit: I certainly have no love affair with Garmin. In fact, I don't like the way a lot of their units and software are going. The openness and willingness to listen of the Delorme programmers in wonderful. But the availability of mapping pretty much everywhere I travel makes it the only realistic choice at the moment.

Edited by Red90
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And, can anyone tell me, how long before the first mapping handheld GPS from Garmin came out? Was it a year after they released their first handheld? Two?

 

I for one am quite happy that DeLorme is taking the strides it is, quite happy with the timeline they are working along. Seems mostly only non-USA users are griping, I would say be patient and see how it works out. If you can live with you Garmin for a bit longer, I would bet things will change...and sooner than later!

 

Last, wow, we should all be so proud of some kid giving you Garmin users maps...something Garmin should be doing? Good job for a college kid, but why wasn't Garmin doing this and not relying on users to make their maps for them? Where's the outcry about this?

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Last, wow, we should all be so proud of some kid giving you Garmin users maps...something Garmin should be doing? Good job for a college kid, but why wasn't Garmin doing this and not relying on users to make their maps for them? Where's the outcry about this?

Ibycus Topo maps provides us Garmin users with a free/donations only alternative to Garmins existing Topo Canada product. Garmin was not relying on him to make their maps for them. I assume Ibycus made this maps because a.) he could, and b.) it was fun. It's an awesome mapset, btw.

Edited by MaliBooBoo
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Last, wow, we should all be so proud of some kid giving you Garmin users maps...something Garmin should be doing? Good job for a college kid, but why wasn't Garmin doing this and not relying on users to make their maps for them? Where's the outcry about this?

Ibycus Topo maps provides us Garmin users with a free/donations only alternative to Garmins existing Topo Canada product. Garmin was not relying on him to make their maps for them. I assume Ibycus made this maps because a.) he could, and b.) it was fun. It's an awesome mapset, btw.

 

Or 3) he had noting of use that he liked and decided to do so out of necessity. I highly doubt that, given many have stated making maps is hard work, the guy did it for fun, but could be mistaken.

 

btw, someone looking for "fun" could also make maps for the DeLorme line...for the fun or because hey, they can!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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