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Stag mugglers


Matt_B_Good

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Sure, just contact a moderator with this simple request. I'm surprised one of them hasn't already been in contact with you for calling the 2007 Geocacher of the Year an idiot.

Have fun caching, and next time try a little less starch when you iron your shorts. :blink:

 

Self-proclaimed 2007 geocacher of the year. It's not an official award.

 

Just to keep things legit...

 

Self-proclaimed Über Genius.

 

Just to keep things legit...

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Sure, just contact a moderator with this simple request. I'm surprised one of them hasn't already been in contact with you for calling the 2007 Geocacher of the Year an idiot.

Have fun caching, and next time try a little less starch when you iron your shorts. :blink:

 

Self-proclaimed 2007 geocacher of the year. It's not an official award.

 

Just to keep things legit...

 

Self-proclaimed Über Genius.

 

Just to keep things legit...

 

EXACTLY!!!

 

And lest you forget..... v3.0!

Edited by bittsen
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However, I'm curious about the part I've bolded (which I'm not sure I agree with). Serious question: What kind of "official" guidance do you think would (or could) have insured even trading?

It's only been recently that the "trade up" part of the definition was added. No where is there mentioned, that I've found, that any visitor should be making sure the cache is really for the next person.

 

Groundspeak puts more emphasis on cache separation and types of trade items than it does on trying to get folks to ensure the cache is ready for the next person. If one thinks about it, the cache owner is the first hider. Each finder is a subsequent hider in turn. The responsible cachers get this inherently. They find the cache, trade kindly, and put the cache back ready for the next seeker. Too many folks don't get this and because Groundspeak touts geocaching.com as the official website for geocaching they are the ones responsible for educating hobbyists in the proper way to cache. No one else can really take up the task because if it doesn't come from the mouths of TPTB then not "official" and who cares?

 

I think Groundspeak has a pretty good website for listing geocaches, but are actually poor stewards of the hobby.

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I think Groundspeak has a pretty good website for listing geocaches, but are actually poor stewards of the hobby.

 

Though it might be blasphemy, I really tend to agree with this.

 

When a moderator basically says "that's the way it is, get used to it" then there might be a problem.

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To the OP, out of morbid curiosity I looked at some of your posts. On the 6 or so I looked at, NOT ONCE did you thank the owner for placing it. I consider that more rude than not trading up. At least you write more than "found it" however you did complain about someone taking all the coins that should have been there.

 

You have only been caching for 3 months, I suggest you do more caching than hiding to get a better feel for the "game" and how others play. Life and geocaching is what you make of it.

 

We don't trade very often just leave a scrabble letter and sign the log.

 

Don't shoot us but we have on 1 occasion taken a TB when we did not have one to trade, we did that because we were headed to another part of the country and wanted to give it some miles - I like it when mine get a good move.

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Don't shoot us but we have on 1 occasion taken a TB when we did not have one to trade, we did that because we were headed to another part of the country and wanted to give it some miles - I like it when mine get a good move.

 

Joined: 26-October 03

 

No offense to Scrabblers, but I'm constantly amazed at the cachers that have been at it for years that still think TBs have to be traded one-for-one to move from cache to cache.

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Don't shoot us but we have on 1 occasion taken a TB when we did not have one to trade, we did that because we were headed to another part of the country and wanted to give it some miles - I like it when mine get a good move.

 

Joined: 26-October 03

 

No offense to Scrabblers, but I'm constantly amazed at the cachers that have been at it for years that still think TBs have to be traded one-for-one to move from cache to cache.

 

Not necessarily a join date thing. I've seen 2002 joiners place TB Prisons. I'd think it's more not hanging around Geocaching forums (be it local or this one), or never having discussed the subject with other Geocachers. Just kind of taking the "trade fairly" credo and extending it to Travel Bugs (without thinking it through, obviously). Either way Scrabblers, trust me, no one will shoot you. :blink:

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Don't shoot us but we have on 1 occasion taken a TB when we did not have one to trade, we did that because we were headed to another part of the country and wanted to give it some miles - I like it when mine get a good move.

 

Joined: 26-October 03

 

No offense to Scrabblers, but I'm constantly amazed at the cachers that have been at it for years that still think TBs have to be traded one-for-one to move from cache to cache.

 

No offense taken. We know you can move them without leaving one, But there are so many cache pages that say NOT to take one if you can't leave one. And we did get a nasty email about not trading. We just ignored it.

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The Third Law of Geocaching that states that the value of items in a cache tends towards zero as time increases.

Actually, that's Asimov's 5th Law of Geocaching. The 3rd Law is "Film Cans Suck.... Period". :blink::huh:

 

Back on topic:

I've never noticed any serious swag deterioration issues with my hides. They typically take a couple years just to accumulate a few low value tidbits. My guess is this is because I don't own any park & grabs. It seems that folks who are willing to spend the better part of a day in pursuit of a single smiley are less willing to make inequitable trades.

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Just curious as to why you would put a toy car in a cache that is not suppose to be kid friendly. Also what happens when it gets taken now your out everything. My son always feels the need to trade something. One time he took garbage out of the cache and left something nice. To him it was garbage (a empty sugar packet) to someone else it may have been worth more that what he left.

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Just curious as to why you would put a toy car in a cache that is not suppose to be kid friendly. Also what happens when it gets taken now your out everything. My son always feels the need to trade something. One time he took garbage out of the cache and left something nice. To him it was garbage (a empty sugar packet) to someone else it may have been worth more that what he left.

Hey, I collect those...there are so many varieties, and they have all those cool codes printed on them...If you know how to read them, you can tell when and where the sugar was packeted, and on some brands, even where the cane was from(by plantation)

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There is no rule, you can consider it your personal ethic but not a rule.
According to the Geocaching dot com FAQ it really IS a rule:
What are the rules in Geocaching?

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.

3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

Personally, I see Geocache Swag Deterioration (also known as GSD) as unfortunate but inevitable. One of Life's little lessons is that not everyone plays by the rules. That fact does not allow me, however, to follow suit. I abide by the "Trade Up, Trade Equal or Don't Trade" credo. It's these small things in Life we do that I believe define who we are, and I refuse to define myself by the lowest common denominator.

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No offense to Scrabblers, but I'm constantly amazed at the cachers that have been at it for years that still think TBs have to be traded one-for-one to move from cache to cache.

As I stated earlier, originally there were no rule for trading even or trading up. The "rules", actual instructions for cache finders, were to take something and leave something. Nobody had any feeling of entitlement that the people would leave something of value comparable to what they left. But eventually, people began to complain about the state of swag in most caches and about how they saw the value of swag degrade in caches over time. So some people started pushing the idea of "Trade even or trade up". It caught on with a lot of people since it only seemed reasonable that this would make the caching experience for those that followed better. Eventually it was even adopted by Grounspeak and they started to write about it in the guidelines and tutorials on the Geocaching website. They even rewrote the "rules" to incorporate it.

 

In the same manner we got the "rule" that travel bugs are not trade items. Originally there were just that. People would sometimes leave an item in trade with a note attached to it that than it wanted to get to some particular cache someplace. People simply relied on other geocachers to move that item as they traded it for other items as it went from cache to cache. Soon Groundspeak realized that they could make money on these "hitchhikers". They began to sell tags and provided a place to track the item as it moved about. Travel bugs turned into a whole new side game and people started to created caches that were meant as "hotels" for these hitchikers to stay in as they traveled. One idea was to fill these "hotels" with many travel bugs, so some owners made trading rules for them. Some travel bug owners discovered that their bugs would sometimes check into a travel bug hotel and get stuck for a while as other bugs move in and out. So they began pushing the idea that travel bugs are not trade items and can be taken and moved without trading for them. Groundspeak was quick to accept this idea, probably because they were get $5 a piece for each travel bug tag and were more likely to listen to the travel bug owners than to cache owners. By making travel bugs and later geocoins have special status they are probably able to sell more of them and discourage the use of "hitchikers" that haven't paid for a tag.

 

I've never noticed any serious swag deterioration issues with my hides. They typically take a couple years just to accumulate a few low value tidbits. My guess is this is because I don't own any park & grabs. It seems that folks who are willing to spend the better part of a day in pursuit of a single smiley are less willing to make inequitable trades.

Kit Fox made the same observation. In my case, I generally see very sudden and rapid degradation of swag in my remote caches. It seems somewhat independent of how long the cache has been out there. One day the cache will be full of good swag and the next day the contents have been reduced to ash and charcoal. But that's what happens hiding caches in the mountains in Southern California.

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Just curious as to why you would put a toy car in a cache that is not suppose to be kid friendly. Also what happens when it gets taken now your out everything. My son always feels the need to trade something. One time he took garbage out of the cache and left something nice. To him it was garbage (a empty sugar packet) to someone else it may have been worth more that what he left.

Hey, I collect those...there are so many varieties, and they have all those cool codes printed on them...If you know how to read them, you can tell when and where the sugar was packeted, and on some brands, even where the cane was from(by plantation)

 

Let me know where you cache and if I'm ever in the area I'll drop it in one for you.

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Just curious as to why you would put a toy car in a cache that is not suppose to be kid friendly. Also what happens when it gets taken now your out everything. My son always feels the need to trade something. One time he took garbage out of the cache and left something nice. To him it was garbage (a empty sugar packet) to someone else it may have been worth more that what he left.

Hey, I collect those...there are so many varieties, and they have all those cool codes printed on them...If you know how to read them, you can tell when and where the sugar was packeted, and on some brands, even where the cane was from(by plantation)

 

Let me know where you cache and if I'm ever in the area I'll drop it in one for you.

Oh, I'm all over...I ususlly get them from the restaurants I stop at, but if I ever find one in a Cache...WOO HOO!! Especially if it was signed by hte Cacher who dropped it.

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Just curious as to why you would put a toy car in a cache that is not suppose to be kid friendly.

Because kids aren't the only ones who would find a Hotwheels car desirable? Maybe? :blink:

I include a few items that would be considered as being geared toward kids, even though they are most certainly not kid friendly. I do this because it matches how I trade. I leave a handmade geocaching keychain in every cache I visit, that is large enough to receive it. 90% of the time, I take nothing. On about 9% of my finds, I'll see some little trinket one of my rugrats would like, and I take that. On about 1% of my finds, I'll see some trinket that really catches my eye, and I'll take that. I see nothing wrong with including a smattering of toys in hard to reach hides.

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We have bought many hotwheel cars since we started caching. We leave them in any cache that is big enough. I don't care if a child (or adult) trades even for them or not, I just hope they get some enjoyment out of finding them. Isn't that what geocaching is all about, FUN.

 

My six year old son is, as he recently put it, "really into hot wheels". He's got quite a collection that I've traded for and doesn't care at all if they're still in the package. Awhile back I traded the equivalent of 11 cents for one. It was a coin I brought back from Ethiopia. At one of the first caches I found with my son he went through the swag and tossed aside a picture frame, an ethernet cable, and a bunch of other dollar store item. He wanted the little smiley face eraser (probably cost a penny).

 

One mans treasure...

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I've seen many uneven trades and some I find to be a bit cheesy but I don't get making a big deal over a difference of 75 cents in value.

 

There have been times I left something that wasn't quite as valuable as something I took and there were times I left something a bit more valuable, but the day when I have to sit there with a calculator to make sure

that the value of my trade is within X cents of what I took is the day I stop trading.

 

As a cache owner you need to realize that the swag you place in caches is your gift the to community. There are some people who will take advantage of those gifts. That's life.

 

If a 75 cents difference in value is something that sets you off then perhaps you aren't cut out for cache ownership.

 

That is the most idiotic response in this whole thread. The car was in package. Anybody with any level of intelligence knows you can't buy that for a quarter. They should have left another unopened hotwheels car, a dollar, an unopened McDonald's toy or something like that. I even listed the value in the page. A little less value I wouldn't care about but they left less than 25% of the value of the item's value. It is not about the amount of money it is about the low percentage of value. The way I see it your part of the problem. Please don't respond to me anymore your post was clearly idiotic.

 

Aside from the fact that your retort was completely uncalled for (you asked for opinions... that means you have to graciously accept the opinions that are given to you)....

 

Aside from that, I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person, and I have no idea what the going rate for a hotwheels car in the packaging is. Was the price tag still on it? I think I might have thought it was worth more than a quarter, but I would have no idea if it was worth $.50, a dollar, or 5 dollars. Seriously... I'm not making this up.

 

The fact is, once something is in the cache, value becomes very subjective. That frosted glass starfish that I left behind might be considered junk by one person... and someone else might think it was the coolest thing they'd seen, and worth about 2 dollars. In reality, it's probably worth about $.30 retail, and I got it for less than that.

 

The hotwheels car you left behind might have been bought at a toy store in the mall... or it might have come from a bulk merchant who sells them at yard sales for much less.

 

To the cacher who traded, it was (apparently) worth about a quarter.

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from now on the majority of my caches will start out with just crap or just the logbook.

 

If that's how you feel, my suggestion would be to simply not bother place hides at all... next you'll be back because your cache got stolen... or someone stole the logbook... or kept the pen... or whatever... The reality is that hiders must be prepared for their caches to degrade over time... whether it is swag or the container itself.

 

But, since my opinion doesn't agree with yours, you'll probably consider it to be an unhelpful post.

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Don't shoot us but we have on 1 occasion taken a TB when we did not have one to trade, we did that because we were headed to another part of the country and wanted to give it some miles - I like it when mine get a good move.

 

Well... that's great! Because TBs and geocoins aren't trade items anyway! Glad you took one so it could move along! :blink:

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The rule is that if you take something from a cache you put something of equal value or of greater value in the cache.

 

There is no rule, you can consider it your personal ethic but not a rule. Putting out a cache is a gift to the public, the entire public for them to do with as they wish.

 

That is the most idiot thing I ever read.

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WHAT AN INSULT! Why not just steal it? Basically they did. In whose warped world can you go and buy anything let alone a Hotwheels car for a quarter?
Having read this entire thread and your responses in particular; I guess, if I were you, I would have to seriously be asking myself whether this particular hobby, activity, sport, whatever you want to call it - geocaching - is the right one for me.

 

Because in all honesty, based solely on what I can derive from your posting history, it's really not.

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WHAT AN INSULT! Why not just steal it? Basically they did. In whose warped world can you go and buy anything let alone a Hotwheels car for a quarter?
Having read this entire thread and your responses in particular; I guess, if I were you, I would have to seriously be asking myself whether this particular hobby, activity, sport, whatever you want to call it - geocaching - is the right one for me.

 

Because in all honesty, based solely on what I can derive from your posting history, it's really not.

 

 

Ack... Burned by the timeout bug. Oh for a "Delete" button for owned post's...

Edited by Jupiter_Jack
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I don't think many adults would have "traded" 25 cents for your hot wheels car. Somehow, I think it was a child, and that quarter probably seemed like a lot to them. At our dollar store recently, I saw 4-packs of Hot Wheels cars for a buck, making them 25 cents each (and they each had a box around them.) They may have been smaller than yours, but maybe that is where the confusion lay.

Money is an issue for everyone these days...it could even be that these geocachers are watching every penny. I would give them credit for trading something. They would probably be very embarrassed to read this thread, and know what the cache owner thinks of them. If it were me, and I did seek another cache by the OP, I would certainly only do a TNLN. Perhaps micros would be a better way for the cache owner to go?

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Matt ... my impression of you from your posting is that you might be wound a little too tight. You may not think that's pertinent to the discussion, but it is my 2 cents worth ... and I'm actually giving it for free. No offense meant ... just an observation. And no, I'm not a psychoanalyst, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express once. As far as my hides (and I know my find to hide ratio is not what most would like to see) I don't give a rat's keester as to what ends up in them. For me, it's all about the challenge and not the swag. I want my hides to be a challenge to me as far as finding a hiding place that will be challenging for others to find. It's as simple as that.

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I have only 1 hide. Why? Because I want to put my cache in a place you maybe never noticed before, or never went to before, or maybe to preserve a piece of history that is being eroded away. My cache tells a story. I want to continue this with future caches, and I want the story to be a GOOD one.

 

By the same token, I'm in an area that is loaded with micros. Micros are OK, but it's hard to put travelling items in them. And I adore Geocoins, and love to see them...travelbugs too. So, I put in a fair size cache that can handle not only coins, but larger objects too. I dare say you could put a baseball cap in it; I'll have to dig up a spare and try that. So I've got a large cache in a local historic place.

 

I tried to load it with interesting stuff. It had Geocoins, Fimo clay, Mardi Gras necklaces, stickers, trading cards, plastic cats and some other stuff that I've forgotten. It seems to get pretty regular TB and Geocoin activity, which is exactly what I was hoping for. I visit it on a regular basis and make sure that it isn't emptying out, and that I, the cache owner, remove trash. And yes, I've removed items like bottle caps off drinks....and at the same time, I restock the Fimo, the cats, and if I've got other interesting items I've picked up I'll pop those in there too. Yes, the overall 'quality' of the cache will vary over time as contents travel...that's to be expected. I make sure the log isn't falling apart (replaced the original one within days of FTF), and that there's a pen in the cache and that it works.

 

With any hobby there will be people who don't give as much (or don't give at all) back to the community. There will ALSO be people who give and give and give and give to the community....I'm looking at you, CKayak and Marky! You have to treasure the folks who give, and don't let the ones who don't give get under your skin. When you feel compelled to create a 'crap cache' then you let the non-givers win, and you degrade the hobby for everyone else. That's when it's time to stop hiding caches, or reconsider the hobby altogether.

 

I haven't been able to cache most of this month like I wanted to, and finally dragged my sick, sorry butt out for a caching walk this weekend. You know what my three favorite caches were? Micros. No swag to speak of. But each of them were so cleverly done (and one of them frustrated me for half an hour) that I was chuckling out loud as I found them. THAT was what made it for me, not the swag.

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I'm not going to sit and read every response. This is my last post on this thread. I would gladly close the thread but I see no way to do so. I am glad many of you understand what my frustration is about this. I am surprised to see that so many see nothing wrong with what the person did with my swag item in the geocache. The guidelines clearly indicate that items if traded should be replaced with an item or items that are of equal or greater value. So therefore unless otherwise stated in the cache description people should follow that guideline. Otherwise a really good geocache turns into one with a bunch of garbage in it. As far as calling the guy who won geocacher of the year awards and a moderator an idiot. Yes I did that. I apologize for doing so. I should not have done that. I still feel he is rather obtuse and I stand by my statement that his post was idiotic but to call him an idiot was wrong of me and I'm sorry. The fact that he is a winner of some bogus geocacher of the year award a moderator and has been at this longer than I have is 100% irrelevant. In other words it does not mean he is an ethical Geocacher. What he says means no more than what I say what matters is the guidelines. I go by that more than some guy's opinion. With the exception of the trolls attempting to flame I thank all of you for your responses. It is now time to put the topic to rest.

 

Good bye for now

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Sure, just contact a moderator with this simple request. I'm surprised one of them hasn't already been in contact with you for calling the 2007 Geocacher of the Year an idiot.

Have fun caching, and next time try a little less starch when you iron your shorts. :blink:

 

Self-proclaimed 2007 geocacher of the year. It's not an official award.

 

Ah, now. I do remember voting for him in 2005, before they restricted the voting to Platinum Members...

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I recently traded one for a pencil top eraser that probably cost about 5 cents. I needed the eraser. I had fun putting the car out into the world. Value is subjective.

 

No joke! I like to leave carabiners, those little mirrors on a stick-things, and eyeglass repair kits. Do you have ANY IDEA how valuable an eyeglass repair kit is when your lens just fell out four feet from the cache? PRICELESS. By the same token, one of those dental mirrors is priceless when it saves you from sticking your hand into a big mess o' black widows. Also priceless when it lets your aching back still hunt without the need to bend over.....

 

As an amusing side note, I found a pair of Ducky Lee's glasses while looking for a cache where she posted that a bush had stolen her glasses. I found her at the 9.9.9 event and gave her her glasses, and she was thrilled.....because she'd just lost her current pair not two hours earlier.

 

Value is extremely subjective, even more so when you learn to 'let go' of material things and the way they can bother you.

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I can buy HotWheels cars four for a dollar at the local Dollar Tree. I recently traded one for a pencil top eraser that probably cost about 5 cents. I needed the eraser. I had fun putting the car out into the world. Value is subjective.

 

Value is extremely subjective, even more so when you learn to 'let go' of material things and the way they can bother you.

 

Try telling that to the next checkout person you deal with. Try giving them a portion of the bill, and then give them that explaination. No... let's not kid ourselves here... most of the time, we know darned well if we are trading equally or better.

 

 

The point, my friends, is to leave the cache IN BETTER OR EQUAL CONDITION. I think that most of us really do know what that means. We're all adults here, right? This isn't about trying to get the best deal you can... its about leaving something equal or better for your fellow human being. Rationalizing and justifying a poor trade is only cheating yourself. If you can't trade better in the most honest sense, then don't bother to trade at all. Think of the next guy to find the cache, and I think you will be able to honestly answer the "equal or better" question.

Edited by knowschad
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I notice in my area of the country especially in the more tourist type place cache swag is not traded according to the rules. The rule is that if you take something from a cache you put something of equal value or of greater value in the cache. I had a new unopened hotweels car in a cache. about $1.00 retail value. I was expecting that if someone chose to trade they would know it was worth about a dollar. The person traded but they left a quarter. WHAT AN INSULT! Why not just steal it? Basically they did. In whose warped world can you go and buy anything let alone a Hotwheels car for a quarter? It is getting bad. Some caches start out with some cool stuff. As time goes by it is all a bunch of junk. This really discourages me from starting out another geocache with any decent swag.

 

Matt-

 

I know you say you are not going to visit this thread again, but be honest; you will look in now and again. Because, it is your thread and you have an interest in it, much like your cache; but you have opened both up to the public by posting both the cache and this thread to GC.com.

 

Value of an item is subjective and resides with the person making the valuation. For instance, I like glow-n-dark stuff. I may come upon a cache that has what you value as a crap piece of stag, just a cheesy piece of plastic that happens to glow-n-dark. Yet I look at it and see the most wonderful thing in the world. Now what will I trade for it??? If the next cacher is in luck and I was travelling light with just my basic pack it will prolly be an unactivated geocoin. If it was a planned trip and I have my full pack with my normal trade items, then it may be just another piece of "junk" glow-n-dark plastic that I carry with me as one of my sig items. Such is life!

 

I guess the big picture here is you placed the cache and released it into the world for the public to visit, not all visitors are alike and not all will value your starting items the same. Trade-up or Trade-equal; great rule, although it again is based on the beholder of you swag's value. What he sees it's value as and what he perceives the value of the item in his hand is. Not all value is based on a monetary designation. You choose to let others come in and enjoy your cache and we all appreciate that, thank you for placing another that we may find.

 

The important thing here is that you gave the kid {if that is who made the trade} a few moments of enjoyment during the trade phase. Just think of the thoughts as he decided what would be a good exchange for that toy car he really likes. He made the decision that 25c was an equitable trade in his mind.

 

Side-note did you check that quarter? Possibly silver, possibly double-die...

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I can buy HotWheels cars four for a dollar at the local Dollar Tree. I recently traded one for a pencil top eraser that probably cost about 5 cents. I needed the eraser. I had fun putting the car out into the world. Value is subjective.

 

Value is extremely subjective, even more so when you learn to 'let go' of material things and the way they can bother you.

 

Try telling that to the next checkout person you deal with. Try giving them a portion of the bill, and then give them that explaination. No... let's not kid ourselves here... most of the time, we know darned well if we are trading equally or better.

 

 

The point, my friends, is to leave the cache IN BETTER OR EQUAL CONDITION. I think that most of us really do know what that means. We're all adults here, right? This isn't about trying to get the best deal you can... its about leaving something equal or better for your fellow human being. Rationalizing and justifying a poor trade is only cheating yourself. If you can't trade better in the most honest sense, then don't bother to trade at all. Think of the next guy to find the cache, and I think you will be able to honestly answer the "equal or better" question.

 

We all now that caches should be left in better condition than found. That trades should be made at least even. The OP got upset when told the simple facts. Not everyone will trade equably. It does no good to let it raise your blood pressure. We just need to learn to live with it and do our best to set an example.

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We all now that caches should be left in better condition than found. That trades should be made at least even. The OP got upset when told the simple facts. Not everyone will trade equably. It does no good to let it raise your blood pressure. We just need to learn to live with it and do our best to set an example.

 

 

I can't disagree with you there, I'm afraid. Gonna be winter here soon. I hate winter. I could move, but I haven't, so I have to accept it. Winter happens when you live in Minnesota. [edited to add that my somewhat obscure point in saying that was simply that sometimes we just need to accept things]

Edited by knowschad
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