Commercial Cache

[+Marienkäfer78]

Hello together,

we have been trying to hide (that worked) and publish our first multi-cache. Unfortunately this cache has been rejected and archived as it has been rated being “commercial” by the reviewer.

 

The first stage of our cache guides you to a store and we ask for the first digit of the time that this store opens weekdays. You do not have to go inside the store nor do you have to interact with employees or buy anything there (which is explicitly mentioned in the description).

 

Well, the guidelines say:

 

[snip]

The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak.

[snip]

 

I cannot see how our geocache violates this, specifically as we do not mention the name of the store or use it as part of a question. Is there any other part of the guidelines that we should look at or do I get this wrong?

 

I’d appreciate your opinions; unfortunately I cannot just remove this question as the cache would not work without.

Thanks a lot in advance

Marienkäfer78

[+Arrow42]

Hello together,

we have been trying to hide (that worked) and publish our first multi-cache. Unfortunately this cache has been rejected and archived as it has been rated being “commercial” by the reviewer.

 

The first stage of our cache guides you to a store and we ask for the first digit of the time that this store opens weekdays. You do not have to go inside the store nor do you have to interact with employees or buy anything there (which is explicitly mentioned in the description).

 

Well, the guidelines say:

 

[snip]

The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak.

[snip]

 

I cannot see how our geocache violates this, specifically as we do not mention the name of the store or use it as part of a question. Is there any other part of the guidelines that we should look at or do I get this wrong?

 

I’d appreciate your opinions; unfortunately I cannot just remove this question as the cache would not work without.

Thanks a lot in advance

Marienkäfer78

 

This is just a forum full of other cachers... we can't appeal the decision for you. You would be better off if you worked directly with your reviewer.

 

Your best bet would be to make the cache confirm with how the reviewer sees the policy. And frankly, if someone is required to walk up to a business it's easy to see the reviewer's point.

 

Is there some reason it has to be that sign? Can it be something else... "three times the number of characters on the road sign, minus 13" or something similar?

 

I can appreciate the desire to argue something purely on principle...

[+Marienkäfer78]

Sure, I have been working with the reviewer but obviously we do have a different understanding of the guidelines. For me it is important to get this understood for future caches. I also asked the reviewer to discuss this in the internal forum of the reviewers but I'm really interested in the opinion of other cachers.

 

Nowhere in the guidelines it is said that the pure fact that a cacher comes close to a store qualifies a cache as commercial. If I have a wrong understanding of this I'd suggest to Groundspeak to be more explicit about this in their guidelines.

 

Unfortunately there is no other way to get this fixed in the multi-cache. We would have to rework the first stage completely.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Marienkäfer78

[+niraD]

IMHO, having seekers read the sign listing the store's hours seems a bit commercial. It's not like you're having them read a memorial plaque in a business parking lot, or having them read a generic parking/traffic sign. Having them read that sign really calls attention to the business, even if they don't have to buy anything, enter the building, or interact with an employee.

 

But as Arrow42 pointed out, our opinions don't matter as much as your reviewer's interpretation of the guidelines.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Seems like it would be very simple to obtain that single digit number from almost anyother place rather than intentionally directing cachers to the front door of a specific commercial establishment.

 

I would have to side with the reviewer on this one.

[+fegan]

This is just a forum full of other cachers...we can't appeal the decision for you. You would be better off if you worked directly with your reviewer.

 

BINGO

[+Wild Thing 73]

Instead of a MULTI, why not just place 2 caches or 3 caches and the searchers can log 2or3 caches for smilies.

My take is that a cacher runs all over the area looking for 1 smiley, wasting gas, for just 1 smiley. Multi caches just don't make since to me.. I placed one, then archived the multi and placed 2 caches in the same locations for 2 smilies not just 1 (one). But that is just me...good luck and stay safe.

[+fegan]

Instead of a MULTI, why not just place 2 caches or 3 caches and the searchers can log 2or3 caches for smilies.

Perhaps the stages are too close together to allow multiple hides?

[+Wadcutter]

Why take the finders specifically to that store? It gives air to being commercial.

Sort of like some we've been directed to -

1) Directions took us down a dead end road and at the end of the road was a mom & pop variety store, nothing else. The cache was a film can sitting on a post about 20 ft from the front door.

2) A loop road off a main highway that went to a winery. Nothing else back there. To get to the cache you had to go thru the winery store and out the back door to an ammo can behind a tree about 20 ft from the store.

3) A film can hidden under the front steps of a variety-tourist store. If someone was using the door while you were retrieving the container you would have been hit by the door.

The ONLY reason for those caches were to get people to the businesses. I reported each as being commercial to the reviewers in those areas and each reviewer said they didn't think those were commercial caches because no mention of the business name was on the cache page. So to those reviewers it wouldn't be commercial if a cache hider surreptitously and by diversion took you to their business as long as they didn't mention the business on the page.

Some reviewers are better than others.

[+Prime Suspect]

You've incorporated the store into the cache search. Hard to see how it's anything but commercial.

 

Also, you've posted to the wrong forum. This is not a "Getting Started" issue. Perhaps a moderator can move it to the Geocaching Topics forums, where it belongs.

[+tozainamboku]

Boy am I glad this wasn't the interpretation when I hid my cache several years ago. I have a puzzle that is based on learning to read Chinese characters - specifically the on and kun readings in Japanese. You calculate the coordinates for the final of the puzzle based on the characters you have learned to read. But in order to make interesting, instead of just posting images of the characters I want you to learn, I posted the coordinates of four locations - one is a church and the the other three are businesses. You have to read the Chinese characters on the signs at these locations. If the new interpretation is that getting information off a sign at business or at a church is either commercial or an agenda my cache wouldn't pass the guidelines. I appeal for some common sense here. We are seeing more and more where the commercial guideline is interpreted in such a way as it appears to be no more than an excuse for reviewers who want to deny caches. It seems that a business is like any other location and one should be able to read the signs on business. The guideline is meant to keep advertising off the cache page. I just don't see how asking someone for information on sign at location identified on the cache page only by coordinates can be mistaken for advertising. One could make the same argument that any cache hidden at or even near a business in advertising. It should be enough to just not give the name of the business on the cache page. And even then, the guideline clarifications suggest that the reviewer has some discretion to allow this if it clearly serves a purpose other than advertising.

Edited September 22, 2009 by tozainamboku

[+Team Taran]

In the case cited, the cache requires getting a single digit number from a sign probably located on the front door of a business. There are probably at least a dozen other ways to derive the information in the location that do not require interaction with a commercial establishment. This is quite different from using some unique feature on a commercial establishment. For example, asking someone to count the cats in a mural on the side of a building would strike me differently. One of the things mentioned in the commercial clause is intent. It may be my lack of imagination but I can think of no other reason to require cachers to approach the entrance of a store to get a single digit except to draw attention to the store.

Team Taran

[+redcenterdazza]

IMO, looking at information on a sign related to a business is the same as all the caches that are in Wallmart parking lots. Surely directing somebody a little bit closer to the front door of a business is the same as directing them to the parking lot only a few feet fromt the front door. I'd say have one set of standards and enforce them. Approving caches in a business parking lot to me (and it is only my opinion) could be considered commercial as well. Why put a cache in "that" business' parking lot vice that business.?

[+Wadcutter]

The guideline is meant to keep advertising off the cache page.

Is it? Or is the guideline set to prevent someone affiliated with a business setting up a cache directing you to their business? More so the latter.

On the one that I mentioned that took you to within feet of the front door the cache owner placed in the decription "While there go in and sample their cheese." They didn't mention the business name but there was nothing else down that road, plenty of other places to hide a film can, and they suggested buying from the business. But no mention of the business name. Commercial cache? Sure it was, someone was skirting the guidelines. Their purpose was to get people to the front door of the business.

[+tozainamboku]

The guideline is meant to keep advertising off the cache page.

Is it? Or is the guideline set to prevent someone affiliated with a business setting up a cache directing you to their business? More so the latter.

On the one that I mentioned that took you to within feet of the front door the cache owner placed in the decription "While there go in and sample their cheese." They didn't mention the business name but there was nothing else down that road, plenty of other places to hide a film can, and they suggested buying from the business. But no mention of the business name. Commercial cache? Sure it was, someone was skirting the guidelines. Their purpose was to get people to the front door of the business.

I can't read TPTB's mind. The guidelines do state that "a commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain." So perhaps getting someone to the front door of a business is a commercial cache - since we all know once you are in the parking lot or front door of a business you are more likely to go inside an buy something . But then should we have a guideline that a cache can't be placede within 528 ft of the door of a business?

 

I took my comment on advertising from the clarification that MissJenn wrote when the guidelines were last updated

Our general intention is to prevent geocache listings from becoming billboards for advertisers. It is not our intention to make people "jump through hoops" to avoid mentioning the name of or making reference to a movie, TV show, piece of music, sports team or other item of popular culture which is relevant to the region, state or country where the cache is located.

My argument is that a cache owner should be allowed to take you right up to front door but not ask you to go inside. I would agree that "While there sample the cheese" may be over the line, but "Use the year the store was established to compute coordinates for the next stage" should be allowed. Or if they have a permanent sign showing the names of the cheeses they sell, you should be able to ask "How many kinds of cheese do they sell."

Edited September 23, 2009 by tozainamboku

[+Matt_B_Good]

It is best to ask the reviewer what aspect of it is commercial. It may just be a simple misunderstanding. If you mention the store in the description that could do it. Do your best to get it published but for whatever reason some just don't work out and you might have to ditch it if you can't salvage it. I had to do this on two caches already and I only have 4 hides (not counting one I adopted)

[+Wadcutter]

So perhaps getting someone to the front door of a business is a commercial cache - since we all know once you are in the parking lot or front door of a business you are more likely to go inside an buy something . But then should we have a guideline that a cache can't be placede within 528 ft of the door of a business?

You don't see the implied "getting you to the front door" as a method of getting you to the business? OK, that's your opinion. But then why place a cache right at the front door? No other reason but to get you to the front door.

 

I would agree that "While there sample the cheese" may be over the line, but "Use the year the store was established to compute coordinates for the next stage" should be allowed.

A reviewer disagrees with you. He didn't see anything wrong with that statement on the cache page since there no mention of the business name. But what other reason for the statement other than to support the business?

[+Knight2000]

Appeal the decision. (You can do that.)

[+tozainamboku]

I would agree that "While there sample the cheese" may be over the line, but "Use the year the store was established to compute coordinates for the next stage" should be allowed.

A reviewer disagrees with you. He didn't see anything wrong with that statement on the cache page since there no mention of the business name. But what other reason for the statement other than to support the business?

Edit: I thought we were talking about the cache in the OP. Now I see this refers to a cache that was published that invited people to come inside and try the cheese. We don't know if that statement wasn't added after the cache was approved. Or it may be the reviewer just missed it. I do agree that such a statement does reek of advertising even though it doesn't say buy the cheese and even though this isn't required to to do the cache. It used to be that a short comment like this was sometimes allowed. After all many cachers will hide a cache near a favorite restaurant and say that they enjoy the pie or whatever. Some reviewers may allow this. I guess the difference is something like the rule-of-thumb reviewers use on tribute caches. You can place a cache at a war memorial and say "I always take a moment to think about the sacrifice of the men and women memorialized here" but you can give an imperative statement "Take a moment to reflect on the sacrifice of the men and women memorialized here". Seems a trivial difference, but as a rule-of-thumb it helps the reviewers and it allows the cache owner a way to formulate what they are saying without sounding to preachy or too commercial.

 

When I thought it was the OP cache I wrote this:

 

A reviewer did not publish the cache in the OP because he believed having to read a sign with the hours the business is open is "commercial". That does not mean this is a correct interpretation of the guidelines. Reviewers are not the final arbiters of the guidelines. Groundspeak is. And the geocaching community certainly can provide input in the forums. From the guidelines (emphasis added):

If, after exchanging email with the reviewer, you still feel your cache has been misjudged, your next option is to ask the volunteer to post the cache for all of the reviewers to see in their private discussion forum. Sometimes a second opinion from someone else who has seen a similar situation can help in suggesting a way for the cache to be published. Next, you should feel free to post a message in the "Geocaching Topics" section of the Groundspeak Forums to see what the geocaching community thinks. If the majority believes that it should be published, then Groundspeak administrators and volunteers may review the submission and your cache may be unarchived. Finally, if you believe that the reviewer has acted inappropriately, you may send an email with complete details, waypoint name (GC*****) and a link to the cache, to Groundspeak’s special address for this purpose: appeals@geocaching.com.

 

It used to be that we could have caches inside of business so long as you were not required to make a purchase. Then the guideline were changed to say that if the finder is required to go inside a business or interact with employees it is presumed to be commercial. Now you are saying that if your are required to go the front door or the business it should be presumed to be commercial. So what then, will it be commercial if you are required to go into the parking lot of business, or anywhere on the property of the business, or on a public sidewalk directly in front of a business. I will argue for now that IMO the reviewer was wrong and this cache should be approved. My understanding is that the commercial guideline is to prevent using of a geocaching.com listing as a advertisement. If you visit a site and it has an advertisement there (or just the stores hours) it is not the same as a cache page advertising the site. If in fact TPTB believe as you do that getting someone to the door or having them read the posted hours of the store is the same as getting them inside and that it should be presumed to be soliciting for customers or generating commercial gain, then they should say explicitly where I can put the cache or what kinds of signs at a store are taboo. I believe either they would have to ban all caches at or near businesses or the reviewers will have to make decisions on what is too commercial as they were once required to make decisions on what was "wow" enough to be a virtual. It would be much easier for the reviewers if a sign visible from the outside of the store was always a legitimate object to use to get information for a puzzle or a multi cache and they didn't need to decided what was too commercial or not.

Edited September 24, 2009 by tozainamboku

[+Wadcutter]

If in fact TPTB believe as you do that getting someone to the door or having them read the posted hours of the store is the same as getting them inside and that it should be presumed to be soliciting for customers or generating commercial gain, then they should say explicitly where I can put the cache or what kinds of signs at a store are taboo.

If you have to be careful when retrieving a cache to prevent getting hit by the business' door that's a whole lot different than placing a film can under a light pole in the local Wally World parking lot.

Placing a cache in a business' yard where you have to walk thru the building to get to the yard is a lot different than reading the store hours off a sign.

Placing a cache down a private driveway where there are no other businesses located and then placing a cache under the front porch of that business is there for only one reason and that is to draw people to that remote business.

Those are commercial since the only reason is to draw people closer to the business where maybe they'll go inside.

[+tozainamboku]

If in fact TPTB believe as you do that getting someone to the door or having them read the posted hours of the store is the same as getting them inside and that it should be presumed to be soliciting for customers or generating commercial gain, then they should say explicitly where I can put the cache or what kinds of signs at a store are taboo.

If you have to be careful when retrieving a cache to prevent getting hit by the business' door that's a whole lot different than placing a film can under a light pole in the local Wally World parking lot.

Placing a cache in a business' yard where you have to walk thru the building to get to the yard is a lot different than reading the store hours off a sign.

Placing a cache down a private driveway where there are no other businesses located and then placing a cache under the front porch of that business is there for only one reason and that is to draw people to that remote business.

Those are commercial since the only reason is to draw people closer to the business where maybe they'll go inside.

So exactly how many feet away from the door does the cache have to be so that it would no longer be presumed to be there in order to solicit business? Until Grounspeak updates the guideline or a lackey posts here explaining this new interpretation, I will contend that you can place a cache anywhere up to the threshold of door, because that is what the guidelines currently say. Just because Wadcutter believes that if you stand near the entrance to a store you will feel an irresistible force sucking you inside to buy something doesn't make it so. If TPTB believe that this is the case, they can rewrite the guidelines and provide a rule-of-thumb distance of how close to the entrance is too close. It used to be that a cache was commercial only if you had to buy something. Then it was changed to you can't go inside and/or interact with employees. Now you want to make it you can't stand near the entrance? This chain has to stop somewhere. I don't believe that adding no going near the entrance will be the end of it. Someone will argue that if the cacher can see the entrance from the cache, they are being tempted to go inside and buy something.

[+Wadcutter]

How about this scenario? Is this commercial to you?

To get to the cache the only road to it is one way in and same way out. It's the road to a lone business. You go down this road about 200 yds and there is a small mom & pop souvenir type shop, nothing else. The cache is a film can placed on a shelf on the porch next to the entrance. Commercial cache? Of course it is.

Or what about this one? GCTVRK. It's over 1200 ft down the dead end road to the only business on the road. The road is there to go to the winery. The only reason is to get people to that business.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Wadcutter

[+tozainamboku]

How about this scenario? Is this commercial to you?

To get to the cache the only road to it is one way in and same way out. It's the road to a lone business. You go down this road about 200 yds and there is a small mom & pop souvenir type shop, nothing else. The cache is a film can placed on a shelf on the porch next to the entrance. Commercial cache? Of course it is.

Or what about this one? GCTVRK. It's over 1200 ft down the dead end road to the only business on the road. The road is there to go to the winery. The only reason is to get people to that business.

I don't see that either of these cases are necessarily commercial. In both cases the cache owner many have just wanted to take you down the road to enjoy the scenery. Perhaps the view from the cache location was exceptional. In some cases, a dead road with only one business on it will not have a lot of traffic and the cache owner may have chosen the site because you can hunt for the cache without having to worry about a lot of muggles. Of course if it is on the porch of the souvenir shop, that might not be the case. But if it was placed with permission, I could imaging that you could drive up and search on the porch and find the cache without interacting with the mom and pop shop owners. Certainly some cachers place caches because they want to share a favorite or unusual shop with the community. And business owners undoubtedly give permission with the hope that some of the geocachers that come by may decide to visit the store and perhaps buy something. I do not believe that the purpose of the commercial guideline is to prevent this. It is meant instead to prevent the use of the cache page to advertise the business. However, unless someone from Groundspeak wants to post a clarification of this point, I can see that you and I are never going to agree on this.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

How about this scenario? Is this commercial to you?

To get to the cache the only road to it is one way in and same way out. It's the road to a lone business. You go down this road about 200 yds and there is a small mom & pop souvenir type shop, nothing else. The cache is a film can placed on a shelf on the porch next to the entrance. Commercial cache? Of course it is.

Or what about this one? GCTVRK. It's over 1200 ft down the dead end road to the only business on the road. The road is there to go to the winery. The only reason is to get people to that business.

 

Perhaps wineries are a different in Illinois than they are in my neighborhood. I know of several caches on winery property in the Finger Lakes area. Most of them were placed by the same CO, someone that works at one of the many wineries in the area (yes, she placing caches on the property of her competitors). They also happen to be some of the most scenic areas around.

 

Ironically, last weekend I went to an event at a winery that's about a mile from where live. It was held on their property, 1000' or so from their tasting room. There is a really pretty pond, some gazebo's, and a small cemetary near the spot. I didn't have time then but I'm probably going to prepare a container and a "All about Geocaching" flyer to see if I can get permission to place a cache there. It's just a really pretty spot that I think other geocachers should see. My reason for placing a cache there would definitely not be to get people to the business.

[+Wadcutter]

I don't see that either of these cases are necessarily commercial. In both cases the cache owner many have just wanted to take you down the road to enjoy the scenery. Perhaps the view from the cache location was exceptional. In some cases, a dead road with only one business on it will not have a lot of traffic and the cache owner may have chosen the site because you can hunt for the cache without having to worry about a lot of muggles.

You're sure grasping at straws trying to justify your position.

There is nothing "scenic" down the road. It's a flat rock road driveway to the winery which is nothing more than a store.

There is no "exceptional view" down the road. It's a rock one lane road leading to a private business.

There are caches placed all over the area that don't have muggle problems. Had the CO just wanted it off the road there are plenty of places to hide a cache that would be muggle free. The cache is at the winery store. Reason? To get people to drive down the one lane road to the winery.

 

Of course if it is on the porch of the souvenir shop, that might not be the case. But if it was placed with permission, I could imaging that you could drive up and search on the porch and find the cache without interacting with the mom and pop shop owners.

The one I referred to previously wasn't placed with the permission of the shop owners. It was placed BY the shop owners. It was at the top of the steps at the front door under the door sill. Commercial? Sure was. The CO and the shop owners were the same people. There was plenty of places to hide a film can but under the door sill? Commercial.

 

Certainly some cachers place caches because they want to share a favorite or unusual shop with the community. And business owners undoubtedly give permission with the hope that some of the geocachers that come by may decide to visit the store and perhaps buy something. I do not believe that the purpose of the commercial guideline is to prevent this.

Getting someone to a business to "share a favorite or unusual shop" is exactly what a commercial cache is. What else would it be when it lures people to a location to to "share a shop" and benefit a business owner?

But wait, then you post the next line which completely contradicts yourself....

 

It is meant instead to prevent the use of the cache page to advertise the business.

You've run yourself around so much trying to lamely justify your position that you've now contradicted yourself. Read the previous quote. You've contradicted yourself to where you are now disagreeing with your own comments. "Sharing a favorite or unusual shop" is advertisement. You even admitted it when you then wrote "And business owners undoubtedly give permission with the hope that some of the geocachers that come by may decide to visit the store and perhaps buy something. " That exactly what a commercial cache is - getting someone to a location with hopes that they'll be patronizing the business. You've danced around the May Pole to the point where you're now meeting yourself.

 

Perhaps wineries are a different in Illinois than they are in my neighborhood. I know of several caches on winery property in the Finger Lakes area. Most of them were placed by the same CO, someone that works at one of the many wineries in the area (yes, she placing caches on the property of her competitors). They also happen to be some of the most scenic areas around.

The winery in question is a building where they sell their wine. It's not the vineyards nor the buildings where the wine is made. It's a store, nothing more.

 

Ironically, last weekend I went to an event at a winery that's about a mile from where live. It was held on their property, 1000' or so from their tasting room. There is a really pretty pond, some gazebo's, and a small cemetary near the spot. I didn't have time then but I'm probably going to prepare a container and a "All about Geocaching" flyer to see if I can get permission to place a cache there. It's just a really pretty spot that I think other geocachers should see. My reason for placing a cache there would definitely not be to get people to the business.

The other business I mentioned in a previous post involved a winery where the cache was hidden in their wine drinking garden. The only way to get to it was thru their store as the garden was fenced in. Commercial? Sure was. If they just wanted to hide a cache then there are plenty of places along the road. Their intentional was to require walking thru a business to get to the cache and is for only one reason, to get people into their store. Commercial clear and simple.

[+JBnW]

While Wadcutter is making a valiant attempt towards disqualifying all LPCs in commercial parking lots, I'm going with Toz on this one. One can place a cache in front of any business (with appropriate permission, and call it "GCxxxx, Just another ammo can cache". Also provide at least a minimum amount of text describing their muse for placing the cache, or some such thing. IMHO, this is absolutley within the guidelines and has nothing to do with being "commercial".

[+Prime Suspect]

Or what about this one? GCTVRK. It's over 1200 ft down the dead end road to the only business on the road. The road is there to go to the winery. The only reason is to get people to that business.

And it's over 3 years old, meaning it was reviewed under a different set of Guidelines. And it's obviously been edited since originally published. So what does this have to do with caches being submitted today? Nothing.