Commercial buisness names in geocache name or is it?

September 14, 2009

This is in reference to a cache that I am trying to get published.

GC1YDYT currently named "This deadend is a best buy."

I am using the WORDS "best buy" as a TERM/PHRASE... NOT as a commercial business name refereing to the business of "BEST BUY".

The reviewer came back and denied my cache saying commercial names can't be used in cache names. I fully understand this policy. I DON"T have a problem with this. So I renamed my cache to the above cache name using the TERM/PHRASE. He/she came back and said if I didn't correct the problem, he would permantely archive said cache.

I then pointed out that their ARE other geocache sites out there that USE the name BEST BUY, WALMART, etc... out their in their cache names.

I also then WROTE an appeal to Groundspeak.com claiming my reasons that MY cache name should be allowed.... The letter/email is as follows...

"I would like to appeal the reviewers current decesion on the following cache.

GC1YDYT currently named "This deadend is a best buy."

Please check the current logs as to the reviewers notes and my notes posted for the reviewer.

I am "NOT" using the NAME best buy as the commercial business, but only as a TERM/phrase. Such as this car is your best buy.

If you still feel that this is in violation of your TOS. Then I would like to refer you to the following CURRENT cache hides that ARE using a commercial name in them. This name commercial name is a name that you CAN'T even argue as being a phrase name.

All of the following use the name "WALMART" in them. These are 5 examples. There are 25 MORE geocaches that use the name "WALMART" in them.

"Better than Walmart" http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...c2-97ba09606d79

A Regular at Walmart?!? http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...21-2683c27666dc

A Relic of the Pre-WalMart Era http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...cf-fb54706c1a3f

Behind the WalMart http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...7b-0cdc7da4eaea

Cache Renewal at WalMart 72E http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ff41ace7f\

All of the following use the name "COKE" in them. These are 2 examples. There are 102 MORE geocaches that use the name "COKE" in them. "Coke" is a registered TRADEMARK owned by the Coca-Cola Company.

1 Ounce Coke http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ad-15897baaaeb5

4 Fried Chickens and a Coke http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...e5-eb950817b9e3

All of the following use the name "Burger King" in them. These are 2 examples.

Burger King Reigned Here! http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...1e-19a2b03dc435

You might want to eat at Burger King Gas Saver http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...19-25a28b34ff3a

AI can list at least 250 MORE caches that use a commercial business name in them. That use the following COMMERCIAL buisness names in them such as... McDonalds, Taco Bell, KFC, Pepsi, Best Buy.

Yet this reviewer is NOT publishing my cache simply because I want to use the TERM/PHRASE best buy. Not the commercial name of it!

Please see to this matter ASAP. Thank you

TGC"

If you do a search on various COMMERCIAL business names you WILL easily find that there are OVER 1,000+ geocache names out there that use a COMMERCIAL name in them to some point. Commercial names that ARE trademarked (Such as Coke, & Pepsi) as well as others.

Commercial names that have NO OTHER possible meanings or USES to them. The WORDS "BEST" and "BUY" are NOT words that can be trademarked by themselvs. They are words that can be used for other meanings and purposes. Even when used together.

Pepsi, Taco Bell, WALMART are commercial names that have NO OTHER meaning other than to represent the COMMERCIAL business that they are.

Tell me... should mine be allowed or not? And if NOT why? And if NOT... then WHY should the other geocache sites be allowed that ARE using commercial names?

Thank you

TGC

P.S. This cache has now been published with the current name of "This deadend is a....", However it has been "Disabled" by myself until resolution from my "Apeal" process has been negotiated with Groundspeak.com.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...5a-b0db835090ff

Edited September 14, 2009 by texasgrillchef

September 14, 2009

I then pointed out that their ARE other geocache sites out there that USE the name BEST BUY, WALMART, etc... out their in their cache names.

Wait for it, wait for it...... .... it is coming....

edit - ... undoubtedly someone coming in pointing out the "no precedence" portion of the guidelines. Here's a graituitous link ... (right there in the bold text)

Edited September 14, 2009 by Jeep_Dog

September 14, 2009

22k · September 14, 2009

Tell me... should mine be allowed or not? And if NOT why? And if NOT... then WHY should the other geocache sites be allowed that ARE using commercial names?

I don't know. Kind of make me wonder if there is more to this story.

I can tell you that:

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache. If a cache has been published and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be "grandfathered" and allowed to stand as is.

---

Commercial Caches

Commercial caches will not be published on geocaching.com without prior approval from Groundspeak. A commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak.

Edited September 14, 2009 by BlueDeuce

September 14, 2009

Use a different name. Then change it later after it's published.

Oh yeah, no precedence for caches!

22k · September 14, 2009

Use a different name. Then change it later after it's published.

Good way to get yourself banminated.

September 14, 2009

I don't know. Kind of make me wonder if there is more to this story.

There isn't any more to the story than I told you. You can look at the cache and see for yourself the reviewers notes.

I can tell you that:

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache. If a cache has been published and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be "grandfathered" and allowed to stand as is.

I fully understand "Grandfathering". Not a problem if a cache was placed before a rule was added or changed.

HOWEVER.... I would like to point out... That with OVER 1000+ caches USING commercial names. I would DOUBT that ALL 1,000+ were placed BEFORE the rule was added. Some of these 1,000+ caches are placed within the last 60 days. WAY AFTER the rule was in place.

I am encouraged to report it? Well First I will see wait and see what happens with my "Apeal". Then if my apeal is denied.. I WILL be reporting those caches that ARE using obvious commercial names in them.

I would like to point out though... that I again am NOT using the name "Best Buy" to represent the commercial enterprise of "Best Buy" but as a TERM/PHRASE.

As far as precedence goes. I won't go into the problems not allowing for precedence and what issues that could raise with bias, unfairness and the issues that go with being biased. Legal and otherwise.

Simply put... Grandfathering aside... what you allow for one, you have to allow for all, what you ban from one, you should ban from all. Otherwise you have biasing.

TGC

P.S. I would like to point out the following as well... In the Rule of no commerical caches...

"principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion."

I have no desire, no intent of my cache soliciting for "Best Buy" nor am I being paid by "Best Buy" NOR is the cache on "Best Buy" property. Nor is my cache designed or placed to provide commercial gain to "Best Buy". "Best Buy" has no affliation with my cache or it's placement. The "Finder" of my cache is NOT required to go "Best Buy" nor is the finder required to interact with "Best Buy" or any of it's employees.

Edited September 14, 2009 by texasgrillchef

7.7k · September 14, 2009

You can fight with your reviewer, or you can change the name and get it published. Remember you can always appeal to Groundspeak.

An alternative is to change "best buy" to "an excellent buy" or "a very good buy", but it is up to you. All I can say is, nothing we say here is going to change the reviewer's mind.

Oh, yeah, and no precedence for getting cache published according to guidelines :laughing:

3.3k · September 14, 2009

I'm all for archiving every cache that references a business however, i've noticed that nearly every post of yours is agitational. You sure aren't making many friends when you constantly stir the pot. :laughing:

3.9k · September 14, 2009

All other things being equal, it sounds like the OP's reviewer is doing a slightly better job of enforcing the guidelines than the reviewers of most of those other caches (although in some of them, the name is clearly being used in an ironic sense).

But in any case, given the numbers of caches which each reviewer publishes, plus the fact that anyone can edit their cache name at any time :laughing: , the number of exceptions which have slipped through is pretty small out of 900,000 active caches. We all see huge numbers being tossed around daily on the news, but really, 900,000 individual <anything> is a pretty big number (especially since it's more like 1,300,000 when you include all the caches which have been archived).

It's pretty hard to achieve perfection when trying to get any job done with unpaid volunteers under the best of circumstances. When they have to balance the demands of COs who whine that their cache X can't be published and then others who whine that by publishing cache X they were committing the biggest crime against fairness since Brown vs Board of Education, it's amazing that anyone does the job at all.

22k · September 14, 2009

I don't know. Kind of make me wonder if there is more to this story.

There isn't any more to the story than I told you. You can look at the cache and see for yourself the reviewers notes.

We can't see an see an unpublished cache, only the Groundspeak folks can.

September 14, 2009

It's been published ... then the OP disabled it.

I got a text on my phone ... new cache! Yay! Pulled it up ... bummer.

September 14, 2009

So then what everyone is saying is that I should let it go...

and then go issue SBA's on all those that are using commercial names in their cache name.

You can't have it both ways. Sorry thats not the drummer I march too.

Either you allow them all, or you don't. (grandfathering aside).

So no presdence for placing caches... means NO presedence for issuing SBA's as well.

TGC

P.S. BTW the geocaching/Groundspeak policy is in regards to caches being commercial and NOT solicting the business. Since I have no affiliation with "Best Buy" and it ISN't on "Best Buy" property. I still fail to see how the use of the two words "best" and "buy" make it a commercial cache.

Edited September 14, 2009 by texasgrillchef

22k · September 14, 2009

Instead of archiving all those caches let's get a pony. :laughing:

8k · September 14, 2009

I would like to point out though... that I again am NOT using the name "Best Buy" to represent the commercial enterprise of "Best Buy" but as a TERM/PHRASE.

...

NOR is the cache on "Best Buy" property.

So how close is your cache to Best Buy. If you are not near a Best Buy (or a competitor of Best Buy) you probably have a fairly good argument that you are using best buy as a phrase. I guess if the deadend is for sale it could be a best buy?

The rules on commercial caches have change several times. The reviewers seem to always have trouble determining what is commercial and what isn't. Groundspeak allows a certain amount of reviewer descretion in determining whether or not the cache page is commercial. About a year and a half ago, the guidelines were changed and Groundspeak published some clarification on the guidelines. In these clarifications they state that business names should not be in geocache titles. However they cleary give the reviewers some leeway in determining when a phrase like best buy is a phrase and when it is the name of a business. Some reviewers will try to determine if the title has some kind of advertising overtone or if it is just a clever name for the cache. Other reviewers will enforce the no business name to the letter.

Clearly if yours is the cache that is turned down you will feel that you are being treated unfairly. But this seems to be the breaks. For the most part you can always rename your cache slightly to get the same effect. Perhaps "No better shopping opportunity than at the deadend" or "This dead end doesn't come any cheaper". In fact a cryptic reference would probably get more response from the visitors who might not have any idea what the cache title is about till they get to the cache and see the Best Buy store next to it.

September 14, 2009

Instead of archiving all those caches let's get a pony.

:laughing: A Pony? What the heck am I suppose to do with a pony?

TGC

September 14, 2009

Instead of archiving all those caches let's get a pony.

:laughing: A Pony? What the heck am I suppose to do with a pony?

TGC

Sorry I don't know how this got "posted" twice....?????? Although my comptuer did have a hiccup at the time I hit the "Submit" button

Edited September 14, 2009 by texasgrillchef

3.9k · September 14, 2009

So then what everyone is saying is that I should let it go...
and then go issue SBA's on all those that are using commercial names in their cache name.

If by "everyone" you mean "noone" then yep, that's about it.

You can't have it both ways. Sorry thats not the drummer I march too.

Either you allow them all, or you don't. (grandfathering aside).

See, that's the beauty of running your own web site. You get to make the rules, you get to break them when you want, and you get to not worry about 100.0% consistency, when 99.9% is just fine for most people (and better than you'll find almost anywhere else in the real world).

Groundspeak is fully aware that those "Walmart" and "Burger King" caches exist. They get people in your situation complaining about them all the time. They choose not to do anything about it. Maybe occasionally this loses them a customer. Such is life, such is business.

So how close is your cache to Best Buy.

About 500 feet, according to Google Maps.

Edited September 14, 2009 by sTeamTraen

5.3k · September 14, 2009

So how close is your cache to Best Buy.

Click the link in the original post for his cache and then click on the Google Maps link.

Once there, click the search nearby link in the test box for the pushpin on the map.

Enter "Best Buy"

Yeah, a complete coincidence that the store is right there, huh?

1.4k · September 14, 2009

Instead of archiving all those caches let's get a pony.

A Pony? What the heck am I suppose to do with a pony?

TGC

Ride it when you go geocaching. :laughing:

22k · September 14, 2009

Ride it when you go geocaching.

(Hey, no offensive fegan but you are kinda stepping on me finally getting that pony. Don't kill the deal!)

Instead of archiving all those caches let's get a pony.

A Pony? What the heck am I suppose to do with a pony?

TGC

You want a pony. I want a pony. Let's just work this out.

September 14, 2009

So how close is your cache to Best Buy. If you are not near a Best Buy (or a competitor of Best Buy) you probably have a fairly good argument that you are using best buy as a phrase. I guess if the deadend is for sale it could be a best buy?

Even though it isn't on "Best Buy" property. I am honest enough to say that it is very close to "Best Buy". However, I would still like to point out that many other caches with commercial names in them such as walmart are IN FACT on walmart property, or very close to walmart. While you might want to claim "No presedence" I take issue with that rule as causing more problems than it solves. However this IS NOT the thread I wish to debate the "No presedence" issue.

The rules on commercial caches have change several times. The reviewers seem to always have trouble determining what is commercial and what isn't. Groundspeak allows a certain amount of reviewer descretion in determining whether or not the cache page is commercial. About a year and a half ago, the guidelines were changed and Groundspeak published some clarification on the guidelines. In these clarifications they state that business names should not be in geocache titles. However they cleary give the reviewers some leeway in determining when a phrase like best buy is a phrase and when it is the name of a business. Some reviewers will try to determine if the title has some kind of advertising overtone or if it is just a clever name for the cache. Other reviewers will enforce the no business name to the letter.

I fully understand the NEED for this policy of "No Commercial" cache hides. I believe that is a policy that is very desperately needed with geocaching.com otherwise the cache hides would get alot worse! However... groudspeak.com STILL has ALOT of work in refining this policy.

At least Groundspeak.com DOES have an apeal process, & I am taking full advantage of that pathway to the extent that I can.

Clearly if yours is the cache that is turned down you will feel that you are being treated unfairly. But this seems to be the breaks. For the most part you can always rename your cache slightly to get the same effect. Perhaps "No better shopping opportunity than at the deadend" or "This dead end doesn't come any cheaper". In fact a cryptic reference would probably get more response from the visitors who might not have any idea what the cache title is about till they get to the cache and see the Best Buy store next to it.

Yes, mine was turned down and yes I do feel as though I have been treated unfairly. If I used a name like "Walmart" or "Pepsi" or something along those lines, in actual TRUE reference to the commercial business, even though my cache may not be for commercial purposes. I HONESTLY wouldn't have as much problem with it as I am having with the name I originally CHOSE.

What if my neice whose name is "SAM" and placed a cache NEAR a "Sam's" and called it "SAM's Corner". With the cache being on the OPPOSITE of corner of the "SAM's". Or even if it WASN"T near a "Sam's Store".

See the issues that can arise by allowing the "Reviewers" To much discretion?

Now... I am thinking of new names to name it that won't cause such a fuss with THIS reviewer. In case my APEAL is denied. Because I have a SERIES of caches at "DEADENDS" the words "DEAD END" are very important in being a part of the cache name. So I agree... You are probably right. My ORIGINAL name was probably not a good name anyways. Maybe "Don't Buy this deadend" or "An Electronic Deadend"

But even if I DO name it something else... it still doesn't negate the issue at hand. The issue being that this policy and how the reviewers put it into action needs to be reviewed and UPDATED again.

Reviewers should NOT be given the discretion. Simply NO commercial TRADEMARKED names as part of a geocache name. I say TRADEMARKED... as Best Buy has NOT been able to TRADEMARK their name. No other buisness may use "Best Buy" as their company name. But other buisness's CAN use the words "Best Buy" as part of their name, or in their name, or even in their slogans.

Think of Home Depot, Office Depot, etc... Depot can't be trademarked... "Mc" can't be trademarked. McDonalds LOST their trademark law suit against "McCurry"

So Groundspeak.com should update thier policy to allow NO geocaching names with COMMERCIAL TRADEMARKED names. Of which "Best Buy" isn't trademarked. "Best Buy" has "LIMITED" trademarking rights.

TGC

September 14, 2009

See, that's the beauty of running your own web site. You get to make the rules, you get to break them when you want, and you get to not worry about 100.0% consistency, when 99.9% is just fine for most people (and better than you'll find almost anywhere else in the real world).

Within reason that is true. As long as they DON'T break copyright law, trademark law, You don't Slander or Libel, and a few other laws.

A Mother was just convicted of malicious Slander/libel in one state and fined $5,000 for something she posted on her myspace.com account about someone else.

PirateBay.com was temporarily shut down for copyright infringement.

TGC

1.4k · September 14, 2009

September 14, 2009

What if my neice whose name is "SAM" and placed a cache NEAR a "Sam's" and called it "SAM's Corner". With the cache being on the OPPOSITE of corner of the "SAM's". Or even if it WASN"T near a "Sam's Store".

Contradicting much? If the cache isn't near a Sam's, then there is no arguement. Besides, how are you going to prove to the reviewer your niece is names Sam. My daughter is named Samantha. For real. But you might think I'm lying, even if I produce a birth certificate. Heck, people still think Obama isn't a citizen and they've certified his birth certificate.

See the issues that can arise by allowing the "Reviewers" To much discretion?

So what do you want? Groundspeak to hire paid reviewers, who all work in a giant office filled with cubicles? What does Groundspeak do then to pay for this? Stop free memberships, raise the fees for membership to 39.99 a month? Do you really want that? I know I don't. I sometimes don't agree with my local reviewer, but you know what? I just go on and find more caches. Too much more serious stuff to worry about in life.

Now... I am thinking of new names to name it that won't cause such a fuss with THIS reviewer. In case my APEAL is denied. Because I have a SERIES of caches at "DEADENDS" the words "DEAD END" are very important in being a part of the cache name. So I agree... You are probably right. My ORIGINAL name was probably not a good name anyways. Maybe "Don't Buy this deadend" or "An Electronic Deadend"

Maybe part of your problem is the way you interact with your reviewer. You drag this whole thing out in public, argue heatedly that the reviewer is simply wrong, and post the following note on your cache page...

September 14 by texasgrillchef (147 found)
I have no desire, no intent of my cache soliciting for "Best Buy" nor am I being paid by "Best Buy" NOR is the cache on "Best Buy" property. Nor is my cache designed or placed to provide commercial gain to "Best Buy". "Best Buy" has no affliation with my cache or it's placement. The "Finder" of my cache is NOT required to go "Best Buy" nor is the finder required to interact with "Best Buy" or any of it's employees.

If I was your reviewer, and you were acting this way, I'd make sure the Groundspeak knew it as part of my defense of my actions. Cachers have such a sense of entitlement now, that things have to simply go their way or not at all. In other words, if Groundspeak won't play your way, everyone should take their toys and just go on home.

If you had kept this quiet, talked things over with your reviewer, you might have been able to work something out. Since you've dragged the dirty laundry into the street, you're erased any chance of a "peaceful resoultion."

Reviewers should NOT be given the discretion. Simply NO commercial TRADEMARKED names as part of a geocache name. I say TRADEMARKED... as Best Buy has NOT been able to TRADEMARK their name. No other buisness may use "Best Buy" as their company name. But other buisness's CAN use the words "Best Buy" as part of their name, or in their name, or even in their slogans.

In closing, I want to give you some friendly advice. One, typing in caps on forums is considered shouting. It has been since the late 90's, and is in very bad form. It makes your arguments seem very tin-foil hatish wen you do it. Second, if this game stresses you out this much, I would recommend picking up a new hobby. I hear knitting is very low stress. :laughing:

6.7k · September 15, 2009

Sometimes it seems like you are looking for trouble. But that is not a scientific observation.

You may get a chuckle out of a cache I placed back a while when there was another round of debate about commercial content. Link

10.1k · September 15, 2009

Remember: There is no precedent in getting caches published.

Your cache has failed the guideline that your reviewer is using. (Perhaps more reviewers should be using those guidelines the way that your reviewer is, but that does not establish a precedent!) Oh, well. Try calling it "Good Bye"? Trying to archive lots of other people's caches does strike me as a bit much.

BD, is that a high horse, or a dead horse?

22k · September 15, 2009

Nah, he just wants a pony.

7.3k · September 15, 2009

(Commercial content removed) AKA (CENSORED)

....thanks for that, possibly even better than a pony!

15.3k · September 15, 2009

Since you've dragged the dirty laundry into the street, you're erased any chance of a "peaceful resoultion."

I am reminded of an article I read many years ago: Chainsaw Diplomacy

18.9k · September 15, 2009

Your prescedant argument gets you nowhere and zero sympathy points.

Having said that - I think your amended cache name should have been ok. Since it certainly would not be apparent that you were referencing the store until a cacher arrived on-site. But that is my opinion and I know the reviewers have some rather specific criteria to follow.

6.7k · September 15, 2009

(Commercial content removed) AKA (CENSORED)

....thanks for that, possibly even better than a pony!

It was a fun cache to write up. Some of the earlier finders got it but most lately must not frequent these forums enough to get the joke.

6.5k · September 15, 2009

I wonder if in a few years we will 'revere' TGC POSTS on the same level as ringbone, upinyachit, or other famed? members of the forum Rogue Gallery?

Now where is that pony line?

22k · September 15, 2009

It's been published ... then the OP disabled it.

I'm sorry, that just clicked.

So the OP complied here at some point.

September 15, 2009

Since you've dragged the dirty laundry into the street, you're erased any chance of a "peaceful resoultion."
I am reminded of an article I read many years ago: Chainsaw Diplomacy

But then again, "Chainsaw" Al ended up in bad straits himself...

CNBC has named Dunlap as one of the "Worst American CEOs of All Time", and he is barred from serving as an officer or director of any public company as a result of his conduct at Sunbeam Corp.[1]

Sometimes, a judicious approach, however lengthy and tenuous it may be, can yield far better results. Chainsaw letters notwithstanding, dragging this into public goes against the way things should be handled.

And to further stir the pot, does this type of hide really need to be hidden anyway? Don't we already have enough film cans and medicine tubes in parking lots?

10.2k · September 15, 2009

Instead of archiving all those caches let's get a pony.

A Pony? What the heck am I suppose to do with a pony?

TGC

Ride it when you go geocaching.

To a cache that isn't a micro on a dead-end street 500 feet from Best Buy.

September 15, 2009

Sometimes it seems like you are looking for trouble. But that is not a scientific observation.

You may get a chuckle out of a cache I placed back a while when there was another round of debate about commercial content. Link

Yep your absolutely right. I do look for trouble. I look for problems. I love solving problems & issues. When I find trouble. I try to find a final resolution to the issue. Just in my nature. It's the drummer that I march too. This is one of the reasons I loved being in EMS so much as well as being a volunteer law enforcement officer at one time as well. One of the other reasons I am very politcally invovled with the political process, as well as with lobyists.

While I love geocaching, I believe in regulation, laws, rules and policies. On all levels. Including Federal, State, Local and those who control geocaching.com. I believe in those so long as they are fair & just.

All I am asking is that "reviewers" have some consistancy to their process. It isn't that hard to do. Even if the person is a volunteer & not paid. I have worked many jobs both in a paid position as as a volunteer. Consistancy was expected from both the paid person as well as the volunteer. No excuses just because you were were an unpaid volunteer. No not all of my volunteer work has been with EMS/Fire/S&R or Law Enforcement either. I have volunteered my time as a cook for soup kitchens. I tell you this, everyone expects consistancy when you cook various items. Volunteer or otherwise.

My biggest issue & pet peeve with geocaching.com & Groundspeak.com is their consistancy to being inconsitant.

I am just very very glad that our legal system isn't run the same way that they run the implementation and enforcement of the rules, policies and regulations here!

TGC

Edited September 15, 2009 by texasgrillchef

September 15, 2009

Sometimes it seems like you are looking for trouble. But that is not a scientific observation.

You may get a chuckle out of a cache I placed back a while when there was another round of debate about commercial content. Link

Yep your absolutely right. I do look for trouble. I look for problems. I love solving problems & issues. When I find trouble. I try to find a final resolution to the issue. Just in my nature. It's the drummer that I march too. This is one of the reasons I loved being in EMS so much as well as being a volunteer law enforcement officer at one time as well. One of the other reasons I am very politcally invovled with the political process, as well as with lobyists.

While I love geocaching, I believe in regulation, laws, rules and policies. On all levels. Including Federal, State, Local and those who control geocaching.com. I believe in those so long as they are fair & just.

All I am asking is that "reviewers" have some consistancy to their process. It isn't that hard to do. Even if the person is a volunteer & not paid. I have worked many jobs both in a paid position as as a volunteer. Consistancy was expected from both the paid person as well as the volunteer. No excuses just because you were were an unpaid volunteer. No not all of my volunteer work has been with EMS/Fire/S&R or Law Enforcement either. I have volunteered my time as a cook for soup kitchens. I tell you this, everyone expects consistancy when you cook various items. Volunteer or otherwise.

My biggest issue & pet peeve with geocaching.com & Groundspeak.com is their consistancy to being inconsitant.

I am just very very glad that our legal system isn't run the same way that they run the implementation and enforcement of the rules, policies and regulations here!

TGC

What I don't "get" is why you have focused your "campaign" on geocaching; given the same infrastructure and resources, it would be a wonder if we even had a legal "system". I would say: don't sweat it; it's a business. Do you walk into a random shop and start throwing around bolded words or "quotes" because they aren't consistent with their pricing?

September 15, 2009

What I don't "get" is why you have focused your "campaign" on geocaching; given the same infrastructure and resources, it would be a wonder if we even had a legal "system". I would say: don't sweat it; it's a business. Do you walk into a random shop and start throwing around bolded words or "quotes" because they aren't consistent with their pricing?

Depends. LOL If I find the same item in two different parts of the store with different prices on them I do.

This happens quite more than most people I am sure are aware. Especially when they put an item on what is known as a endcap and then put that item on sale. Usually the rest of the stock of that item that is in it's normal place doesn't get the price update. When that happens... yes I do bring it to the store managers attention. No I don't yell at the manager as though I am ticked off. I try very very hard at being as nice and polite as I can be. I show him/her the error & then ask them what the correct price is. I also then ask them if there is a reason for the price difference.

I use quotes, capitalization, & bolding to empahsize words that can easily be emphasized when your having a verbal conversation but otherwise can't be emphasized very well in the written word unless you do quotes, capitalization or bolding. If you can, then I would request if you have the time to educate me on this matter. I am always open to ways of improving my communication skills.

TGC

September 15, 2009

It's been published ... then the OP disabled it.

I'm sorry, that just clicked.

So the OP complied here at some point.

It wasn't that I complied... it was that with a few suggestions by another poster I came up with a better name that I actually like better for my cache hide than the one I originally had, or even had changed it too the second time or 3rd time as well.

The log that I had logged to my cache page I removed about 15 min after I had posted it. (The one that a previous forum poster had used as a quote in his post) At the time I was posting that log, I was posting it as another reply to the "reviewer". I hadn't realized at the time the reviewer had allready published my cache. That is why the "Disabled" log was AFTER the log I had posted. I then read a suggestion by another forum poster & with his help came up with a better name for my cache hide. That is when I deleted my previous log, re-enabled my cache hide & deleted both the disable & re-enable cache logs as well.

It is obvious to me... that with the "No Presedent" policy that the reviewers can use as an "Excuse" to not publish a cache hide simply because they may not like your cache &/or the way you have hidden it or wish to publish it, or even simply because they are having a "Bad" day. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I am not saying that reviewers do that, nor am I saying that reviewers don't do that. I have no evidence to suggest that they do or that they don't.

Being that with the "No Presedence" policy as well that can be used as an "Excuse" by a reviewer when they decide not to publish a cache then it stands to reason then, that as a CO & hider you have absolutely no right to complain why your cache wasn't published or even archived at a later time.

That being said... I am now done with this thread topic. It doesn't even matter if I win my apeal process as I have found a better name for my cache hide & won't go back to the name I had originally chosen in the first place.

To the pleasure I am sure of most geocaching.com forum members.. I am also DONE with posting any threads or replies that are in any topic that can be considered a complaint. This includes topics relating to any geocaching/Groundspeak policy, regulation &/or rules. As well as any threads relating to suggestions about improvements or changes that geocaching.com &/or Groundspeak.com should or should not make.

From here on out... the only posts I will make to in the geocaching forum will be those questions of a non-complaint type issue, Or in response to someone needing advice about an issue that doesn't relate to geocaching rules, regulations or policies. An example of such a post is when someone asked for advice about Poison Ivy. Being that I am legally licensed as a paramedic I posted my official proffesional medical opinion about poison ivy.

However... I do want to say while I don't agree with everybodies opinions on this matter. I DO honestly appreciate everybodies input on this issue. All of you have taken the time to respond to this thread. I am sure many others have ignored this thread and issue as well.

Thank you for your time and opinions.

TGC

September 15, 2009

What I don't "get" is why you have focused your "campaign" on geocaching; given the same infrastructure and resources, it would be a wonder if we even had a legal "system". I would say: don't sweat it; it's a business. Do you walk into a random shop and start throwing around bolded words or "quotes" because they aren't consistent with their pricing?

Depends. LOL If I find the same item in two different parts of the store with different prices on them I do.

This happens quite more than most people I am sure are aware. Especially when they put an item on what is known as a endcap and then put that item on sale. Usually the rest of the stock of that item that is in it's normal place doesn't get the price update. When that happens... yes I do bring it to the store managers attention. No I don't yell at the manager as though I am ticked off. I try very very hard at being as nice and polite as I can be. I show him/her the error & then ask them what the correct price is. I also then ask them if there is a reason for the price difference.

I use quotes, capitalization, & bolding to empahsize words that can easily be emphasized when your having a verbal conversation but otherwise can't be emphasized very well in the written word unless you do quotes, capitalization or bolding. If you can, then I would request if you have the time to educate me on this matter. I am always open to ways of improving my communication skills.

TGC

I'm sorry to have resorted to hyperbole to illustrate the point about your posting style. For hundreds of years, writers have been able to communicate emotion, emphasis and intent without using a word processor. The post with which you responded is a perfect example of a post that doesn't resort to any of the formatting devices that often detract from your posts rather than strengthen your arguments.

It's certainly difficult to convey the full nuance of emotion within the confines of text but in general, emoticons are a more effective way to convey this (even though the writers of the last hundreds of years didn't use them, we're entitled a break) than formatting the text. It's my perception but manipulation of font and format is considered much more strong and clumsy than tossing in an emoticon here and there. In general, as well, emoticons are designed to express general emotion while formatting text seems to be surgical for effect in specific instances.

Take the example of a statement of "I hate that practice" vs "I hate that practice " ... one is the internet version of yelling while the second's emoticon is a way to convey general emotion to a statement. Generally, try to make your point without a crutch but if you have to use one (and I often do!) use exclamation points before smilies and avoid the generous bolding of words. People don't read text as if it were spoken. It's magnified and any attempt to make it that way (i.e. your bolded for emphasis words) makes it seem more like shouting to a reader.

You get great points for avoiding all-caps sentences though! You said you're interested in improving your communications skills so these are just my observations. My observations are offered without rancor and in that spirit. Best of luck and happy caching!

Edit: my post was while you were posting the prior post.... I just took some time composing it. Hope it doesn't dissuade you from posting or continuing to seek input. Again, happy caching

Edited September 15, 2009 by mrbort

September 15, 2009

Take the example of a statement of "I hate that practice" vs "I hate that practice " ... one is the internet version of yelling while the second's emoticon is a way to convey general emotion to a statement. Generally, try to make your point without a crutch but if you have to use one (and I often do!) use exclamation points before smilies and avoid the generous bolding of words. People don't read text as if it were spoken. It's magnified and any attempt to make it that way (i.e. your bolded for emphasis words) makes it seem more like shouting to a reader.

Thank you for taking the time to offer your communications advice. I do appreciate the effort you have taken in offering your advice.

In regards to emoticons. Does it make a difference if your using the character representation or the graphical emoticon? I ask this because there are emoticons that you can use here, in this forum that are unavailable in other areas of the internet world. As well as emoticons that are available elsewhere on the internet that aren't available here. Such as ;P and . As you can see one produced the graphical version and one did not. which is different than the crying version of :..(

Should an emoticon be used before or after a statement? Should one do this.... Blah Blah Blah! or Blah Blah Blah !

Now commenting on your comment about writers of ages past and our new internet savy communications skills. I have heard many a college proffessor as well as language specialists really saying it's a sad sad day for our comminication skills because of our lazy behaviour of texting. Using L8r for later & emoticons instead of 50 additional words to describe our emotions.

All I can say to that is, is that all of my skills are in the kitchen & not in the written word.

TGC

September 15, 2009

Take the example of a statement of "I hate that practice" vs "I hate that practice " ... one is the internet version of yelling while the second's emoticon is a way to convey general emotion to a statement. Generally, try to make your point without a crutch but if you have to use one (and I often do!) use exclamation points before smilies and avoid the generous bolding of words. People don't read text as if it were spoken. It's magnified and any attempt to make it that way (i.e. your bolded for emphasis words) makes it seem more like shouting to a reader.

Thank you for taking the time to offer your communications advice. I do appreciate the effort you have taken in offering your advice.

In regards to emoticons. Does it make a difference if your using the character representation or the graphical emoticon? I ask this because there are emoticons that you can use here, in this forum that are unavailable in other areas of the internet world. As well as emoticons that are available elsewhere on the internet that aren't available here. Such as ;P and . As you can see one produced the graphical version and one did not. which is different than the crying version of :..(

Should an emoticon be used before or after a statement? Should one do this.... Blah Blah Blah! or Blah Blah Blah !

Now commenting on your comment about writers of ages past and our new internet savy communications skills. I have heard many a college proffessor as well as language specialists really saying it's a sad sad day for our comminication skills because of our lazy behaviour of texting. Using L8r for later & emoticons instead of 50 additional words to describe our emotions.

All I can say to that is, is that all of my skills are in the kitchen & not in the written word.

TGC

I guess all I can say is try to modulate whatever you're attempting to communicate. We're not professional writers so the best we can do is to try to use text to express what we want to say but then if we're not able, we use emoticons and formatting to fill the gaps. We risk overstating our cases and coming across as yellers when we could have said it all textually.

I can't (because I'm totally unqualified) to tell you where and when to use emoticons but I would say that writing with the idea that any use of emotional punctuation or formatting is magnified in a textual setting would be a good starting basis.

Thanks for receiving my first comments with more grace than they deserved and the second set with more openness than I had earned. I figure if we are all able to be open and constantly striving to improve our communication the world will only improve. thanks and best of luck

September 15, 2009

THAT cracked me right up. Thank you!

September 15, 2009

QQ

2k · September 15, 2009

I think the OP has a very valid argument for why the title of his cache should be okay. However, the argument is totally not worth arguing for. I mean.....lets be a little original or put a little more thought in to our hides folks. As the OP pointed out, there are already a ton of caches placed at stores with a little play on words in the title. Coming up with that takes little to no effort. Is the privilege of putting little to no effort into your caches title worth fighting for?

8.9k · September 15, 2009

Tell me... should mine be allowed or not? And if NOT why? And if NOT... then WHY should the other geocache sites be allowed that ARE using commercial names?

I don't know. Kind of make me wonder if there is more to this story.

I can tell you that:

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache. If a cache has been published and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be "grandfathered" and allowed to stand as is.

---

Commercial Caches

Commercial caches will not be published on geocaching.com without prior approval from Groundspeak. A commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak.

Of course there's more BD, I seem to recall this poster getting heated in another thread which concerned agendas....

All I can say about this rant is Well, that and I could say that it seems some of us need to show a more mature side and stop causing trouble. As for posting SBAs, I would love to see you do this, and then I would love to see the slapdown you get for your troublemaking. Not only should you be really popular among the caching community, but I bet you'll be the best friend to all the GS crew!

Edited September 15, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

4.8k · September 15, 2009

I wonder if in a few years we will 'revere' TGC POSTS on the same level as ringbone, upinyachit, or other famed? members of the forum Rogue Gallery?

Now where is that pony line?

ROFL

Ahh yes, I still look back on those days and it still makes my eyes all misty...

Back on topic..

I think there's a thread somewhere in the bowels of the Forums discussing this in detail by one of the Lackey's but I'm too lazy/bored/tired to go look for it. I believe it's in plain English too

September 15, 2009

THAT cracked me right up. Thank you!

You're welcome, glad to help (a rarity for me). Now, back to the business at hand...

Reading this thread, I can only draw one conclusion:

Someone needs a hug!

4.2k · September 15, 2009

YOUR usage of the bold typeface AND all caps IS interesting to say the least.

Commercial buisness names in geocache name or is it?

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