Phone-a-Friend Etiquette

[+Unkle Fester]

OK, been meaning to ask this for a while:

 

Phone-a-Friends, what is proper? I'm on a couple lists and don't mind helping someone who is stuck, but I get some calls the feel like they want me to hand them the cache in 10 seconds or less.

 

I'm willing to help, but do not feel it's right to call for the direct answer to a puzzle or to take calls on ten caches in a row because I can save them time (especially when the hint gives it away).

 

I've also had people get mad because I would only guide them in the right direction, not hand them the solution.

 

1. If it's not my hide, it's not my place to give it away.

2. If I searched high and low to find it, I think you should search too.

3. If it's my hide and meant to be difficuld, why should I give it away to you? if its supposed to be hard, I want you to work for it and tell me how hard you worked in your log.

4. Having my phone number is a privalage, not a right, please respect the fact that a) I have a job, I have a family and, c) I like to sleep sometimes too.

 

That being said, I have guided people on the phone and email when they are deperate, spent a lot of time and have been great at detailing what they went through.

 

Am I out of line thinking this way?

 

What are your experiences and what do you feel the bounderies should be?

[GOF and Bacall]

Um, first off, I am going to step a bit to the side.

 

I am not on any "official" phone a friend lists. I have some friends who cache and they have my phone number. Most of them know how I feel about PAFing a cache and don't bother me with such questions. Let those who have your number know what you think ahead of time. Let 'em know that you think there are limits on what or how much info you are comfortable sharing. Let 'em know they can't call at any old hour. If they wake you up at two am. tell 'em exactly what you think. the ones that are truly your friends will understand and accept the limitations. The others aren't really your friends.

[+Unkle Fester]

Um, first off, I am going to step a bit to the side.

 

I am not on any "official" phone a friend lists. I have some friends who cache and they have my phone number. Most of them know how I feel about PAFing a cache and don't bother me with such questions. Let those who have your number know what you think ahead of time. Let 'em know that you think there are limits on what or how much info you are comfortable sharing. Let 'em know they can't call at any old hour. If they wake you up at two am. tell 'em exactly what you think. the ones that are truly your friends will understand and accept the limitations. The others aren't really your friends.

Very good point. But what of the people who are the constant callers? There are people who do not undertand boundaries? (there are only a couple and short of chainging my number...) I've had discussions at events about this and a very few people around simply abuse the privilage - even when you try and set clear boundaries.

 

I've allowed my number to be posted through the association I belong to and given it out a few times to people who have asked.

 

Honestly I really don't mind most of the time, but I've noticed sometimes when reading logs on caches I've found or plan on searching for, I've seen notes about using the PaF list to help make the grab, sometimes even seeing comments like "can't believe I didn't have to call you for another hint"

 

Maybe a better question is: Is a PaF List a tool in despreration or a surrogate for finding the cache yourself?

[+9Key]

Like GOF I'm not on any PAF lists and a few geocaching friends have my number but know not to ask for hints on non-9key caches. I don't mind an occassional call or text, but I think people get carried away with it.

 

Fester, I think you're right on track with your numbered list. Keep up the good work!

[+bittsen]

I only have one friend that I would call and only one friend that would call me.

Maybe I only have one friend....

 

I wouldn't want to be relying on a PAF all the time. That sounds like a sad existence. I DID call my friend one day when I was at a cache location but on the second ring I figured it out so I hung up. ~L

I have answered questions on a cache before but I wouldn't give out the exact location.

 

Honestly, if people wanted to call me for help with finding caches, i wouldn't mind but as Fester said, people should know their boundaries. If a person isn't a close enough friend that they are going to call to invite me to play golf or something then they probably shouldn't call very often for hints.

[+BlueDeuce]

I'll only use a PAF if I need someone with computer access to look up something to either verify cache information or maybe check the weather radar for me.

 

I don't asked for hints and I don't provide them. You just need to get the point across. Stop helping them with that info and they'll stop calling you to get it.

 

If they are an actual nuisance, then you need to give them the what for.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I'll only use a PAF if I need someone with computer access to look up something to either verify cache information or maybe check the weather radar for me.

 

I don't asked for hints and I don't provide them. You just need to get the point across. Stop helping them with that info and they'll stop calling you to get it.

 

If they are an actual nuisance, then you need to give them the what for.

 

I just recently traded numbers with someone for PAF. But I think the only reason I'd call them is if I'd spent a long time looking, sure I had the spot and wanted to verify that the cache was stolen - but then I'd probably log a DNF and call later at an appropriate time. Or if I was at the end of a very long multi with difficult terrain and didn't want to go back over the whole thing again.

[+BlueDeuce]

 

I just recently traded numbers with someone for PAF. But I think the only reason I'd call them is if I'd spent a long time looking, sure I had the spot and wanted to verify that the cache was stolen - but then I'd probably log a DNF and call later at an appropriate time. Or if I was at the end of a very long multi with difficult terrain and didn't want to go back over the whole thing again.

 

This is what can happen when someone who found (or owns) the cache doesn't go check the missing cache for themselves.

 

September 7 by BlueDeuce

Helping cmilk catch up on some back logging. Went and checked the cache today and it's exactly where it should be.

 

Archived August 30 by xxxxx

.

 

August 29 by xxxxxx

With all the terrencial rain that we got I think this one got washed away. We got 7 inches of rain North of Springville. We called a friend to ask if where we thought it should be could be. He said Yes.. Sorry it's gone. If we would of had something magnetic we would of replaced it for you.

We'll come another day.

 

My point is even though you are verifying it's stolen you are still asking for the location. What if it isn't missing. Just log your DNF and let he owner do the verification.

 

Now, if you want to ask people for the final and your friend is willing to give it that is certainly up to you. If you called me I'd just tell you I'll make sure someone checks the cache.

Edited September 12, 2009 by BlueDeuce

[+Unkle Fester]

Nice replies and right on track, I didn't do a good job of clearly explressing what I was looking for but you folks have hit right along the lines I was trying to get to.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

 

I just recently traded numbers with someone for PAF. But I think the only reason I'd call them is if I'd spent a long time looking, sure I had the spot and wanted to verify that the cache was stolen - but then I'd probably log a DNF and call later at an appropriate time. Or if I was at the end of a very long multi with difficult terrain and didn't want to go back over the whole thing again.

 

This is what can happen when someone who found (or owns) the cache doesn't go check the missing cache for themselves.

 

September 7 by BlueDeuce (403 found)

Helping cmilk catch up on some back logging. Went and checked the cache today and it's exactly where it should be.

 

Archived [view/edit logs/images] [upload an image for this log]

August 30 by xxxxx (3250 found)

.

 

[view this log]

August 29 by xxxxxx (456 found)

With all the terrencial rain that we got I think this one got washed away. We got 7 inches of rain North of Springville. We called a friend to ask if where we thought it should be could be. He said Yes.. Sorry it's gone. If we would of had something magnetic we would of replaced it for you.

We'll come another day.

 

My point is even though you are verifying it's stolen you are still asking for the location. What if it isn't missing. Just log your DNF and let he owner do the verification.

 

Now, if you want to ask people for the final and your friend is willing to give it that is certainly up to you. If you called me I'd just tell you I'll make sure someone checks the cache.

 

I haven't actually asked anyone yet.. I don't even know if I'll ever use PAF but I was thinking a convo more like this:

 

Me: OK I'm looking at the base of this tree with a double trunk right next to a rusty old post - the hint says "Under the tree with double trunks next to a rusty old post"

PAF: Hmm, sounds like the right place, can you see a mushroom sticking out of an old Oak nearby?"

Me: Yeah about 10 feet away.

PAF: OK that sounds like the place, might be missing

Me: OK Cheers.

 

I would then make a final check, then log a DNF and note that I think I found the place.

 

Now I don't see a problem with the example you posted. They logged a DNF, the CO checked - what's the problem with them phoning someone when they can't find it? No difference to not phoning someone, a DNF is still logged, and the CO still has to go out and check its still there.

 

However, a smart CO would message the person first and verify that they were in the right place and looking at the right spot first before trecking out.

[+BlueDeuce]

I would then make a final check, then log a DNF and note that I think I found the place.

 

Let me start by saying that I don't care if you want to PAF for the final location if that's what you want to do. I do want to clarify what it is you are doing.

 

First of all I wouldn't take a "I called someone and they told me where it should have been" as a positive verification of a missing cache. My previous example proved that point.

 

What you are doing is asking for the final location. If the cache is there you have the answer. If the cache is missing you have the answer on your return trip. I am not going to give you the final location under the pretense that you are doing the owner a favor. That's not how I advise a cache be checked.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

First of all I wouldn't take a "I called someone and they told me where it should have been" as a positive verification of a missing cache. My previous example proved that point.

 

I don't expect you to, neither would I.

 

What you are doing is asking for the final location. If the cache is there you have the answer. If the cache is missing you have the answer on your return trip. I am not going to give you the final location under the pretense that you are doing the owner a favor. That's not how I advise a cache be checked.

 

I'm not going to ask you for the final location! Actually I'm not going to call you anyway!

 

For me, and I speak only for me, it would be last check before I left it. I don't want to know exactly where it is, I want to know that the place I think it is wasn't it (so I know that I didn't look hard enough).

 

I don't see how this is much different from visiting a cache with friends who have already found it before you, and after looking far and wide, they check and say "Oh it's not there". Now maybe someone moved it from where they originally found it, but that's not up to them, that's up to the CO to determine. They simply say, it's not where they expect it to be - log a DNF, put it on your watchlist and if the next person finds it - go back and try again.

[+BlueDeuce]

I don't see how this is much different from visiting a cache with friends who have already found it before you, and after looking far and wide, they check and say "Oh it's not there". Now maybe someone moved it from where they originally found it, but that's not up to them, that's up to the CO to determine. They simply say, it's not where they expect it to be - log a DNF, put it on your watchlist and if the next person finds it - go back and try again.

 

I can see how caching with friends on any cache can lower the difficulty level. We usually clarify before hand how we handle when one person finds the cache, do they say something or stay quiet until everyone has found it.

Edited September 12, 2009 by BlueDeuce

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I don't see how this is much different from visiting a cache with friends who have already found it before you, and after looking far and wide, they check and say "Oh it's not there". Now maybe someone moved it from where they originally found it, but that's not up to them, that's up to the CO to determine. They simply say, it's not where they expect it to be - log a DNF, put it on your watchlist and if the next person finds it - go back and try again.

 

I can see how caching with friends on any cache can lower the difficulty level. We usually clarify before hand how we handle when one person finds the cache, do they say something or stay quiet until everyone has found it.

 

At the risk of going OT, depends on how competitive you are. If I'm in a competitive mood then declare right away, if there are people who don't like competition then we just establish that we'll wait for most people to find it.

[+ecanderson]

Nice replies and right on track, I didn't do a good job of clearly explressing what I was looking for but you folks have hit right along the lines I was trying to get to.

I agree with all of the points in your original post -- perhaps even more than you do! I'd be put out that someone was asking anyone other than the CO. Sig line below says it all.

[Skippermark]

But what of the people who are the constant callers?

Maybe suggest they try to find easier caches if they have to keep calling for help?

[+wenestvedt]

Well, there's a puzzle cache near here with coordinates built on clues. However, most of the logs say that GPS reception is bad, and that the coordinates are as much as 100' off! So after my third day, I started to wonder: am I even in the right area? I emailed a previous finder and asked about the coordinates I was using, and for confirmation that I was near the right building.

 

The answer I got included more details than I wanted, but I covered the screen with my hand. :7)

[+StarBrand]

I don't much care for the idea of PAF networks.

 

Having said that, I will give out a hint or two to point you in the right direction for my caches but I won't answer questions about other folks caches - just not my place. I won't do dead give-aways.

 

I don't call for help - I have written a few emails over the years after I get a few DNFs to ask for a hint but that is about it.

[Clan Riffster]

It helps to know your peers. There are hiders who I know that have no problem with others giving hints or even outright telling seekers how to find their caches, and their are hiders who want everyone to have the total seeker experience. When someone calls me about hides from folks in the first group, I usually ask them how much of a hint do they want, a little nudge or an eye opener, and go from there. When someone calls about hides from folks in the latter group, I let them know the cache owner's feelings, and suggest they contact them. (unless there's a bribe involved...)

[Skippermark]

I'm on a couple lists

Are there lists going around?

 

I live in CT and did some caching in NJ awhile back. A week or so after getting home, I got a call while at work on my cell from a number that I didn't recognize.

 

It was a cacher from PA saying they were in NJ looking for a cache that I'd just found and wondered if I could give them a hint.

 

I was kind of confused and was like, "What?" and asked how they got my number. They said they got it from a friend. When they told me the friends name, it was a name I didn't recognize.

 

A week or so later, I got another call from someone else from PA asking for help on a NJ cache. I was really busy at work and didn't have time to talk and couldn't find out where they got my number.

[+Unkle Fester]

I'm on a couple lists

Are there lists going around?

 

I live in CT and did some caching in NJ awhile back. A week or so after getting home, I got a call while at work on my cell from a number that I didn't recognize.

 

It was a cacher from PA saying they were in NJ looking for a cache that I'd just found and wondered if I could give them a hint.

 

I was kind of confused and was like, "What?" and asked how they got my number. They said they got it from a friend. When they told me the friends name, it was a name I didn't recognize.

 

A week or so later, I got another call from someone else from PA asking for help on a NJ cache. I was really busy at work and didn't have time to talk and couldn't find out where they got my number.

I haven't gotten calls that far out, but I wondered if that happens... guess so.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I'm on a couple lists

Are there lists going around?

 

I live in CT and did some caching in NJ awhile back. A week or so after getting home, I got a call while at work on my cell from a number that I didn't recognize.

 

It was a cacher from PA saying they were in NJ looking for a cache that I'd just found and wondered if I could give them a hint.

 

I was kind of confused and was like, "What?" and asked how they got my number. They said they got it from a friend. When they told me the friends name, it was a name I didn't recognize.

 

A week or so later, I got another call from someone else from PA asking for help on a NJ cache. I was really busy at work and didn't have time to talk and couldn't find out where they got my number.

 

That's pretty scary. I don't care if we are all members of a 'secret society' type thing but I'd never call someone 3rd party - I'll only ever call people who have directly given me their number.

 

I do that in real life too.. if I recommend someone, I'll call them on behalf of the 3rd party first and then make proper introductions.

 

Makes me think twice about giving out my number

[+BlueDeuce]

Makes me think twice about giving out my number

 

As it should. Joiner beware.

 

We have a strict local policy but the fact is if someone shares your number you might have a hard time tracing it back to who spilled the whiskey. And by then the damage is done.

 

Warning! If you provide a bogus phone number or if IGO members report that you have abused this information your IGO web account may be permanently deleted. Participation in this list is entirely optional and abuse will not be tolerated. If/when you opt out of this list your IGO member number will be recorded so your account may be deleted at a later date if subsequent abuse is detected. IGO maintains this information solely as a convenience for members who wish to participate. If you fear that your phone number might fall into the wrong hands or be abused in any way then please do NOT enter it here. IGO has taken steps to limit this information to confirmed IGO members only. However, IGO cannot guarantee the privacy of this information and will not be responsible for potential abuse of this information by members or other individuals.

[+BBI Dragon]

I think there are two basic kinds of cachers.

 

First, the one's really only after the numbers. They are ones most likely to be abusing the PAF, and to be on occasion, abusive to those they call.

 

Second, the caches like me, who are more focused on the hunt and the fun of the game. Sure we keep track of our finds but it would be rare that we'd use a PAF. I have returned several times to a cache I haven't been able to find just for the sake of being able to know that I made the find on my own. Once in a while I might email the owner and ask for a hint. If I had someone's phone number and I knew they'd found the hide recently enough to remember it, I might, after my second or third attempt, ask for a hint.

 

On the flip side, on the rare occasion, I have been asked for help at a geocache event, or called up and asked for help by much more experienced cachers. I find this very flattering. I was able to make the find and they weren't. I try to give good hints or all but tell them where it is, because I know they are more in the first group of cachers (above). I assume that they have given the location a good looking over before they ask for my help (of all people).

 

I would never offer anything more than a hint on how to solve a puzzle cache if I were asked.

[+doingitoldschool]

I think there are two basic kinds of cachers.

 

With respect, I think our community is far more diverse than that. Even amongst PAF'ers, there is more to less and never would I think of being abusive. Sheepish, yes; abusive, never.

 

PAF for us was something that peaked a few months ago. I used to think that there was no way that I would ever drive/hike back to the hiding spot, so I might as well call someone to help me find it.

Now I'm more inclined to look for about 10 minutes, and walk away with making a call.

 

A long walk with no find might get a call, especially if it looks like it's been muggled and I want to confirm where it had been, but we haven't made one for a long time now.

[+Unkle Fester]

It helps to know your peers....

 

(SNIP)

 

...(unless there's a bribe involved...)

Will cache for Cheesy-Poofs...

[+sbell111]

Give hints that you are comfortable with giving. Don't give hints that you are not comfortable giving.

[+KBI]

1. If it's not my hide, it's not my place to give it away.

2. If I searched high and low to find it, I think you should search too.

3. If it's my hide and meant to be difficuld, why should I give it away to you? if its supposed to be hard, I want you to work for it and tell me how hard you worked in your log.

That is your choice, but I neither share nor understand that viewpoint.

 

I do not feel it is my place to decide for someone else how they may or may not enjoy their entertainment.

 

If a friend sits down to the newspaper crossword, and then asks me to pass him the solution page before he even tries to crack one clue, I am happy to oblige. It is his crossword adventure, not mine. He is responsible for his own entertainment. And if I were the crossword’s author I would be fine with that.

 

Similarly, if a fellow cacher asks me for help on one of my hides – or anyone else’s, for that matter, unless the cache owner has specified otherwise – I provide exactly as much help as is requested when I can. No more, no less. If they only want a slight nudge, I do my best to give only a slight nudge. If they need substantial help I give substantial help. I then end each conversation or email with an offer to provide more help, as desired, up to and including a total spoiler, but only if they ask. So far nobody has taken me up on the total spoiler offer, but it is always there, and I’m sure someday someone will.

 

I figure it should be their choice, not mine. I NEVER give unrequested hints, and I NEVER give more help than is requested. I wouldn’t want anyone to spoil my fun either. By the same concept I never withhold information that someone has decided they want from me in order to optimize their fun.

 

If I am coming out of a suspense movie that has just ended and someone in line for the next showing asks me sincerely to tell them how it ends, I will first ask them whether they are truly serious ... then, if they say yes, I will tell them what they want to know, but only if I can do it in such a way that nobody else in the queue can hear. And if I were the movie’s director or producer I would be fine with that.

 

Allow me to head off a few of the standard responses:

 

If the owner specifically asks on his cache page that no one give away any secrets, then of course I honor that. If someone asks me for help I will first ask them whether such a request has been made. Or if you are asking me for help on a hide placed by someone vocal in the issue, like Unkle Fester or CoyoteRed to name two examples, you will get no help from me. It is the seeker’s choice whether to even start a hunt on a cache where the seeker has been warned in advance that no help will likely be given.

 

Also: I am only talking about Geocaching and things analogous to Geocaching here.

Of course

not all information giveaways are benign. I am not advocating crimes, contract violations or other harm. Giving away requested information in the wrong context can rob, injure or even kill people. It can violate insider trading laws, court orders, contracts, or in certain cases can even constitute treason. Nope, I’m only talking about cache-finding hints and other similarly harmless fun.

I hate when people spoil movies, crosswords or caches for me, but I also get annoyed at those who think they are doing me a favor by refusing to help me when I say that’s what I prefer. The Golden Rule therefore directs me never to do either of those things to anyone else.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Phone-a-Friends, what is proper? ...

 

Tough question. I've archived caches because only the first finder did it right and the next dozen all used the PAF network to short circuit the cache. That cache became no fun to own when the logs started reading like "spend 2 seconds looking then when it wasn't in the obvious spot called up my buddy who told me where to look, you sure you rated this hard enough? AFter my call it only took me 3 more seconds to find it".

[+Renegade Knight]

1. If it's not my hide, it's not my place to give it away.

2. If I searched high and low to find it, I think you should search too.

3. If it's my hide and meant to be difficuld, why should I give it away to you? if its supposed to be hard, I want you to work for it and tell me how hard you worked in your log.

That is your choice, but I neither share nor understand that viewpoint.

 

I do not feel it is my place to decide for someone else how they may or may not enjoy their entertainment.

 

If a friend sits down to the newspaper crossword, and then asks me to pass him the solution page before he even tries to crack one clue, I am happy to oblige. It is his crossword adventure, not mine. He is responsible for his own entertainment. And if I were the crossword’s author I would be fine with that.

 

Similarly, if a fellow cacher asks me for help on one of my hides – or anyone else’s, for that matter, unless the cache owner has specified otherwise – I provide exactly as much help as is requested when I can. No more, no less. If they only want a slight nudge, I do my best to give only a slight nudge. If they need substantial help I give substantial help. I then end each conversation or email with an offer to provide more help, as desired, up to and including a total spoiler, but only if they ask. So far nobody has taken me up on the total spoiler offer, but it is always there, and I’m sure someday someone will.

 

I figure it should be their choice, not mine. I NEVER give unrequested hints, and I NEVER give more help than is requested. I wouldn’t want anyone to spoil my fun either. By the same concept I never withhold information that someone has decided they want from me in order to optimize their fun.

 

If I am coming out of a suspense movie that has just ended and someone in line for the next showing asks me sincerely to tell them how it ends, I will first ask them whether they are truly serious ... then, if they say yes, I will tell them what they want to know, but only if I can do it in such a way that nobody else in the queue can hear. And if I were the movie’s director or producer I would be fine with that.

 

Allow me to head off a few of the standard responses:

 

If the owner specifically asks on his cache page that no one give away any secrets, then of course I honor that. If someone asks me for help I will first ask them whether such a request has been made. Or if you are asking me for help on a hide placed by someone vocal in the issue, like Unkle Fester or CoyoteRed to name two examples, you will get no help from me. It is the seeker’s choice whether to even start a hunt on a cache where the seeker has been warned in advance that no help will likely be given.

 

Also: I am only talking about Geocaching and things analogous to Geocaching here.

Of course

not all information giveaways are benign. I am not advocating crimes, contract violations or other harm. Giving away requested information in the wrong context can rob, injure or even kill people. It can violate insider trading laws, court orders, contracts, or in certain cases can even constitute treason. Nope, I’m only talking about cache-finding hints and other similarly harmless fun.

I hate when people spoil movies, crosswords or caches for me, but I also get annoyed at those who think they are doing me a favor by refusing to help me when I say that’s what I prefer. The Golden Rule therefore directs me never to do either of those things to anyone else.

[+KBI]

...Phone-a-Friends, what is proper? ...

Tough question. I've archived caches because only the first finder did it right and the next dozen all used the PAF network to short circuit the cache. That cache became no fun to own when the logs started reading like "spend 2 seconds looking then when it wasn't in the obvious spot called up my buddy who told me where to look, you sure you rated this hard enough? AFter my call it only took me 3 more seconds to find it".

Not all cachers want their hunt spoiled. Why in the world, then, would you want to punish all future seekers for the actions of a few previous finders?

 

It is possible for the cache owner to be the ONLY person in the universe who knows how to find the cache container. Right up to the instant the first seeker finds it, that is. After that moment the owner no longer has complete control over the information. There is nothing a cache owner can do to change that fact Therefore, if a cache owner cannot accept that, he should probably reconsider hiding caches at all.

 

It is therefore the choice of each subsequent seeker (after the first finder) to decide whether to spoil his own fun by calling others for help. Some will, some won’t. The part I don’t understand is how does that spoil your fun as a cache owner? And how does it justify archiving your cache, and thus denying your cache from ALL future seekers, including those who would not have violated your rule and might have enjoyed your hide immensely?

 

And my biggest question: How do the PAF-ers spoil the fun for later seekers who choose not to PAF? If I choose not to call for help and I enjoy your cache, how does a PAF-aided find that happened on a different day harm my fun? It doesn’t. Not for me, anyway.

 

Your cache, your choice. I just don’t see it.

[Skippermark]

That's pretty scary. I don't care if we are all members of a 'secret society' type thing but I'd never call someone 3rd party - I'll only ever call people who have directly given me their number.

I don't like to give out phone numbers either. If someone wants to talk to a cache owner, and I have that cache owner's number, I'll call the cache owner, give them the number of the person who wants to talk to them and let the owner decide if they want to call the person back. It's not my place to be directory assistance and give out phone numbers.

[+bflentje]

I use the PAF network quite frequently, but ONLY after putting effort into it first. I also take calls on the PAF network and follow a few simple guidelines..

 

- I never give hints on FTF opportunities.

- If less than a few finds, then I try to be vague as possible and fair to the hider.

- If tons of finds, I'll drop more of a hint, but no total giveaways.

 

- I won't provide hints to anyone who won't reciprocate.

- I won't provide hints to anyone who divulges their source for hints.

 

If users of the PAF network have any issues with the level of hints provided (or not provided), they can take me off their list. There are no feelings spared.

[+Unkle Fester]

KBI, you have some excellent points, part of what I said, looking back was a rant, so maybe I was a tad over the top on a couple things. That's not my point, but you brought up a few good ones. Yes I will help, especially to someone who has been out there looking and is frustrated. Give it away? Never but I will help, that's my nature.

 

I'm more irked by the people who call when they arrive at every single cache to cut their hunt time. At that point, why bother hiding at all? Just make them all GRC's or LPC's, nail an arrow to a tree pointing the way, use a neon sign that reads "Here it is!"

 

Even better is when they call, you give a good hint, they log the find and don't sign the log.

 

Believe me, I love the numbers runs. I remember every single hide (except one - and yes, I found out my name is in the log). That is not the point. I've never used the PaF list (email after the DNF, yes), and that's not the point either.

 

The point is trying to figure out what is right or polite. It does not diminish my fun if someone calls. I rather enjoy it. It clearly does not diminish theirs. But when it is a prolific caller to the point of blocking their calls, then it does diminish my fun.

 

And for the example of Renegade Knight, arciving when people started giving it away via the PaF, I completely agree, because people are short cutting the hides. It goes to the dead horse subject of bypassing waypoints on a multi or puzzle to get the smiley.

 

I'm asking what is right?

What is the intent?

If we were writing a guideline, what would it be? (rules are soo arbitrary)

[+KBI]

Fortunately for me I have never really been pestered like the way you describe. Nor have I made it a habit to make those calls myself, with one exception: I call my brother approximately once every couple months or so whenever I find myself stumped by a hide that neither of us has found but where I believe there might be more info in the online logs beyond the last five in my printout. (That’s right; I am completely non-paperless.) Sometimes he is able to browse the logs for me and find helpful hints. And I reciprocate for him when I can. In those cases he serves the same purpose an iPhone or other online connection would have served, I suppose, so I don't know if that really applies to what you're asking.

 

As far as phone etiquette goes, I would think the same rules would apply to PAF caching calls as they do for any calls between friends. If you feel you are being pestered with way too many calls, drop a friendly hint; if the hint doesn’t take, well, that’s what Caller ID is for.

 

As for what is 'right:' To answer that question, simply remove the telephone from the scenario. If you are the one who has already found the cache, ask yourself what you would do if you happened to be walking by and saw a fellow cacher looking for the cache, and he asked for help. Would you help? How much? Or if you were the seeker and saw a previous finder walk by, how much help would you ask for? Whether you are talking in person or via telephone is really irrelevant to your question, in my opinion.

 

That is my humble take. Does that help?

[+sbell111]

When group caching using the 'huckle, buckle' method, are you willing to give hints to the members of your group who haven't found it?

[+Unkle Fester]

Fortunately for me I have never really been pestered like the way you describe. Nor have I made it a habit to make those calls myself, with one exception: I call my brother approximately once every couple months or so whenever I find myself stumped by a hide that neither of us has found but where I believe there might be more info in the online logs beyond the last five in my printout. (That’s right; I am completely non-paperless.) Sometimes he is able to browse the logs for me and find helpful hints. And I reciprocate for him when I can. In those cases he serves the same purpose an iPhone or other online connection would have served, I suppose, so I don't know if that really applies to what you're asking.

 

As far as phone etiquette goes, I would think the same rules would apply to PAF caching calls as they do for any calls between friends. If you feel you are being pestered with way too many calls, drop a friendly hint; if the hint doesn’t take, well, that’s what Caller ID is for.

 

As for what is 'right:' To answer that question, simply remove the telephone from the scenario. If you are the one who has already found the cache, ask yourself what you would do if you happened to be walking by and saw a fellow cacher looking for the cache, and he asked for help. Would you help? How much? Or if you were the seeker and saw a previous finder walk by, how much help would you ask for? Whether you are talking in person or via telephone is really irrelevant to your question, in my opinion.

 

That is my humble take. Does that help?

Good post.

 

When group caching using the 'huckle, buckle' method, are you willing to give hints to the members of your group who haven't found it?

If we're together but looking away from each other, if I make the find I'll call out to see if they're still looking. The first few times, I almost had the cache put away when the others walked over.

 

If it's a cache I already found, I'll let them search for a minute before doing something like the "hot" "cold" game. It really irritates people, but in a fun way.

[PastorJon]

OK, been meaning to ask this for a while:

 

Phone-a-Friends, what is proper? I'm on a couple lists ...

 

[snip]

 

 

There are "phone-a-friend" lists?

 

No kidding...

[+sbell111]

OK, been meaning to ask this for a while:

 

Phone-a-Friends, what is proper? I'm on a couple lists ...

 

[snip]

 

 

There are "phone-a-friend" lists?

 

No kidding...

To many people, this is a very social game. They make friends and give these people their phone numbers, so they can be 'phoned'.

[+BlueDeuce]

OK, been meaning to ask this for a while:

 

Phone-a-Friends, what is proper? I'm on a couple lists ...

 

[snip]

 

 

There are "phone-a-friend" lists?

 

No kidding...

To many people, this is a very social game. They make friends and give these people their phone numbers, so they can be 'phoned'.

 

Sure, I don't mind being called for help by locals. I'm just not going to tell them where a cache is at.

[+Stargazer22]

PAF is a tool like any other.

It's all in how you use it.

I've seen it used in what I would say is an OK way - to get some help doing math on a multi in the field by someone who wasn't much of a math genius. It wasn't complicated, it just wasn't his forte. He was only given help and not actually given final coordinates. But it was enough to put him on his way and he found the cache eventually.

 

I've also seen it abused. The times I saw it used in a situation where I felt it was being abused was by a high numbers cacher who is an admitted "number ho". I was with a fair sized group of cachers going on a group run. As soon as we would arrive at a cache location, the person using PAF would make a call to a friend before anyone even began looking. A couple of times during the day's run, this resulted in him going directly to the cache (one was a dificulty 4) and grabbing it while everyone else was still trying to pin down GZ in an area with poor reception. This earned him a couple of "wow, how do you find these so fast" comments from others who hadn't seen him using PAF. I didn't say anything to anyone at the time, but my opinion of this guy as well as the 2 or 3 he was making the calls to sure took a downturn.

 

If he hadn't been with a group it wouldn't really make any difference. However, I felt that he should have at least let others try to look for the caches before plunging in ahead of everyone else and making the find for himself by already knowing exactly where to look and what to look for. By doing this he took away the option of others to look for the cache first without using inside information, so I felt that was an abuse of PAF.

[+Don_J]

OK, been meaning to ask this for a while:

 

Phone-a-Friends, what is proper? I'm on a couple lists and don't mind helping someone who is stuck, but I get some calls the feel like they want me to hand them the cache in 10 seconds or less.

 

I'm willing to help, but do not feel it's right to call for the direct answer to a puzzle or to take calls on ten caches in a row because I can save them time (especially when the hint gives it away).

 

I've also had people get mad because I would only guide them in the right direction, not hand them the solution.

 

1. If it's not my hide, it's not my place to give it away.

2. If I searched high and low to find it, I think you should search too.

3. If it's my hide and meant to be difficuld, why should I give it away to you? if its supposed to be hard, I want you to work for it and tell me how hard you worked in your log.

4. Having my phone number is a privalage, not a right, please respect the fact that a) I have a job, I have a family and, c) I like to sleep sometimes too.

 

That being said, I have guided people on the phone and email when they are deperate, spent a lot of time and have been great at detailing what they went through.

 

Am I out of line thinking this way?

 

What are your experiences and what do you feel the bounderies should be?

 

I'm going to answer this before reading all of the other replies.

I agree with everything you have written. I will not call you, unless it is your cache that I am seeking, and then only if I am almost certain that it is gone. At this point, I'm calling to see if you want me to replace it for you.

 

I drive a delivery truck in Southern California. California has a cell phone ban, but it does not apply to my license type. Despite that, it is company policy that we do not use our cell phones while driving. All of my caching buddies know that if they call me while I'm on the road. It's going to voice mail.

 

As far as giving up the info. Case by case situation. I will always try to give a clever hint, but if the guy has been there ten times and is ready to pull his hair out, I might just give it up.