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avroair

Powers of Ten (TEN)

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I like the front but the back would keep me from buying it.

 

Is there anything in particular about the design of the back that you don't like?

 

I really think that the symbolism on the back would be lost on anybody buying it unless they read your description above. Also any religious reference may not go over very well in some places. I know its a proverb that you quote but how would bible belt people think of it?

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I don't like the proverb, I don't like the hands, I don't like the stars and I don't think it has anything to do with caching. As soon as I looked at it all I could think of was that it was a religious themed coin (which I would buy if it was related to my religious beliefs) and not a geocoin.

Edited by LadeBear68

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I love the front, for a few different reasons the symbols, the numbers, etc.

 

The hands just really doesn't fit with that celebration of '10'....seems too big and dominates the whole backside of the coin.

 

I would LOVE to host a multi event this time around with getting a coin, but my area doesn't have a lot of coin buyers in the area, and I don't know if I'd be able to remake the cost to be able to get them in the first place.

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I love the front, for a few different reasons the symbols, the numbers, etc.

 

The hands just really doesn't fit with that celebration of '10'....seems too big and dominates the whole backside of the coin.

 

I would LOVE to host a multi event this time around with getting a coin, but my area doesn't have a lot of coin buyers in the area, and I don't know if I'd be able to remake the cost to be able to get them in the first place.

 

You could always go in with someone else in the same boat as you are. Share the cost and the colors like was done for the 10 Years coin in Ontario where 4 events shared two coins.

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I like the front but the back would keep me from buying it.

 

Is there anything in particular about the design of the back that you don't like?

 

 

...as suggested, intentional or not, the back has too much of a religious overtone for my liking... I do like the front though...

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Interesting! I hadn't thought of it as having religious overtones. I'll have to ponder that for a while and see what I can come up with. I do like the proverb and would prefer to keep it, because I think it's in keeping with the idea of the "ten good deeds of geocaching" but I grok the idea of the hands being religious now that you point it out. I'll see what I can do. Thanks!

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[ Deleted; no longer applicable, I'm sorry to say. ]

Edited by Jackalgirl

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I like the front but the back would keep me from buying it.

 

Is there anything in particular about the design of the back that you don't like?

 

 

...as suggested, intentional or not, the back has too much of a religious overtone for my liking... I do like the front though...

I definately agree. First impression when I look at it is...this is a religious coin. Some people will not buy it for that reason. I should not have to explain the symbolism on the coin at my event or on the event page to sell the coin.

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Okay, I'm in the Bible Belt and I see what the problem is going to be. I'm going to have to use 10 paragraphs to explain the symbolism of the coin. And quite frankly, nobody is going to read it.

 

I need eye candy! I don't need a coin that I'm going to have to explain and defend.

 

I really wish we could do a top ten theme. I could sell that!

Edited by MustangJoni

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Okay, I'm in the Bible Belt and I see what the problem is going to be. I'm going to have to use 10 paragraphs to explain the symbolism of the coin. And quite frankly, nobody is going to read it.

 

I need eye candy! I don't need a coin that I'm going to have to explain and defend.

 

If you just remove the part that says "Yoruba Proverb", then I can do it.

 

What's wrong with "Yoruba Proverb"? I honestly don't understand. It is a Yoruba proverb. Is there something inherently wrong with the Yoruba?

 

Edited to add: "Yoruba" is the name of a people in Africa. The word "Yoruba" can refer to the people themselves, their language, their culture, their art, and/or their religion. But the word "Yoruba" does not exclusively refer to a religion. Even if it did, I don't see the problem (any more than I would see a problem with, say, a Buddhist proverb being labelled "Buddhist Proverb"). Could you please clarify?

 

Edited to add again: I can understand if the problem is that people (in general) have problems with any religious reference whatsoever on coins that are not explicitly religious in nature. Got it. However, this isn't a religious reference. It's a proverb. From a culture. It's like saying "German Proverb". I realize I drew an analogy with religion by saying "Buddhist Proverb", I've scratched that out since it doesn't apply here (and really, the discussion of whether or not religious quotes -- from any religion, are appropriate on geocoins not of an explicitly religious nature is a topic for another thread -- mea culpa for getting off-topic).

Edited by Jackalgirl

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Okay, I'm in the Bible Belt and I see what the problem is going to be. I'm going to have to use 10 paragraphs to explain the symbolism of the coin. And quite frankly, nobody is going to read it.

 

I need eye candy! I don't need a coin that I'm going to have to explain and defend.

 

If you just remove the part that says "Yoruba Proverb", then I can do it.

 

What's wrong with "Yoruba Proverb"? I honestly don't understand. It is a Yoruba proverb. Is there something inherently wrong with the Yoruba?

 

Edited to add: "Yoruba" is the name of a people in Africa. The word "Yoruba" can refer to the people themselves, their language, their culture, their art, and/or their religion. But the word "Yoruba" does not exclusively refer to a religion. Even if it did, I don't see the problem (any more than I would see a problem with, say, a Buddhist proverb being labelled "Buddhist Proverb"). Could you please clarify?

 

Actually, I just edited my post, because I just really can't sell the coin. It is hard to clarify. The coin looks religious.

 

I had already googled Yoruba when I made my post, so I could be aware of what it is. You say above that it it does not "exclusively refer to their religion".....

 

...and they would not buy a Buddhist coin either.

 

I am on the road, and about to check out of my hotel, so I don't have time for a long answer, but if the back stays as it is, I'll probably, and sadly, be out of this project after participating in 888, 999 and the 10th anniversary.

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Okay, I'm in the Bible Belt and I see what the problem is going to be. I'm going to have to use 10 paragraphs to explain the symbolism of the coin. And quite frankly, nobody is going to read it.

 

I need eye candy! I don't need a coin that I'm going to have to explain and defend.

 

If you just remove the part that says "Yoruba Proverb", then I can do it.

 

What's wrong with "Yoruba Proverb"? I honestly don't understand. It is a Yoruba proverb. Is there something inherently wrong with the Yoruba?

 

Edited to add: "Yoruba" is the name of a people in Africa. The word "Yoruba" can refer to the people themselves, their language, their culture, their art, and/or their religion. But the word "Yoruba" does not exclusively refer to a religion. Even if it did, I don't see the problem (any more than I would see a problem with, say, a Buddhist proverb being labelled "Buddhist Proverb"). Could you please clarify?

 

Actually, I just edited my post, because I just really can't sell the coin. It is hard to clarify. The coin looks religious.

 

I had already googled Yoruba when I made my post, so I could be aware of what it is. You say above that it it does not "exclusively refer to their religion".....

 

...and they would not buy a Buddhist coin either.

 

I am on the road, and about to check out of my hotel, so I don't have time for a long answer, but if the back stays as it is, I'll probably, and sadly, be out of this project after participating in 888, 999 and the 10th anniversary.

 

When you get the time, I'd really appreciate some clarification. I am still mystified as to why the word "Yoruba" is so unacceptable. I'd be curious to know whether the rest of the Forum community finds the word objectionable as well.

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Okay, I'm in the Bible Belt and I see what the problem is going to be. I'm going to have to use 10 paragraphs to explain the symbolism of the coin. And quite frankly, nobody is going to read it.

 

I need eye candy! I don't need a coin that I'm going to have to explain and defend.

 

If you just remove the part that says "Yoruba Proverb", then I can do it.

 

What's wrong with "Yoruba Proverb"? I honestly don't understand. It is a Yoruba proverb. Is there something inherently wrong with the Yoruba?

 

Edited to add: "Yoruba" is the name of a people in Africa. The word "Yoruba" can refer to the people themselves, their language, their culture, their art, and/or their religion. But the word "Yoruba" does not exclusively refer to a religion. Even if it did, I don't see the problem (any more than I would see a problem with, say, a Buddhist proverb being labelled "Buddhist Proverb"). Could you please clarify?

 

Actually, I just edited my post, because I just really can't sell the coin. It is hard to clarify. The coin looks religious.

 

I had already googled Yoruba when I made my post, so I could be aware of what it is. You say above that it it does not "exclusively refer to their religion".....

 

...and they would not buy a Buddhist coin either.

 

I am on the road, and about to check out of my hotel, so I don't have time for a long answer, but if the back stays as it is, I'll probably, and sadly, be out of this project after participating in 888, 999 and the 10th anniversary.

 

When you get the time, I'd really appreciate some clarification. I am still mystified as to why the word "Yoruba" is so unacceptable. I'd be curious to know whether the rest of the Forum community finds the word objectionable as well.

 

I did edit my post and removed that.

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Okay, I'm in the Bible Belt and I see what the problem is going to be. I'm going to have to use 10 paragraphs to explain the symbolism of the coin. And quite frankly, nobody is going to read it.

 

I need eye candy! I don't need a coin that I'm going to have to explain and defend.

 

If you just remove the part that says "Yoruba Proverb", then I can do it.

 

What's wrong with "Yoruba Proverb"? I honestly don't understand. It is a Yoruba proverb. Is there something inherently wrong with the Yoruba?

 

Edited to add: "Yoruba" is the name of a people in Africa. The word "Yoruba" can refer to the people themselves, their language, their culture, their art, and/or their religion. But the word "Yoruba" does not exclusively refer to a religion. Even if it did, I don't see the problem (any more than I would see a problem with, say, a Buddhist proverb being labelled "Buddhist Proverb"). Could you please clarify?

 

Actually, I just edited my post, because I just really can't sell the coin. It is hard to clarify. The coin looks religious.

 

I had already googled Yoruba when I made my post, so I could be aware of what it is. You say above that it it does not "exclusively refer to their religion".....

 

...and they would not buy a Buddhist coin either.

 

I am on the road, and about to check out of my hotel, so I don't have time for a long answer, but if the back stays as it is, I'll probably, and sadly, be out of this project after participating in 888, 999 and the 10th anniversary.

 

When you get the time, I'd really appreciate some clarification. I am still mystified as to why the word "Yoruba" is so unacceptable. I'd be curious to know whether the rest of the Forum community finds the word objectionable as well.

 

I did edit my post and removed that.

 

Okay, could you PM or email me with the explanation, when you get the chance? Again, I'm mystified as to why the word "Yoruba" is so objectionable as to cause you to not participate in the project, or to be afraid that people in your area would be offended. It's a proverb -- a fairly universal proverb, really -- ascribed to a particular group of people in Africa. I can totally understand that the hands would lend a religious overtone to the coin. But they're gone now. How does the word "Yoruba" make the coin religious?

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JG... I think alot has to do with the fact it strongly resembles the Jewish Star of David and also resembles other religions such as Arab/Midieval Islam.

 

while I'm not a religeous scholar by any means, a quick google seach of 'ten pointed star' would give you some info...

 

snip...."the ten pointed star is an upside down pentagram on top of a right side up pentagram which is the symbol of man as a star being perfect in gods eyes to having sovereignty over the earth and all the beasts of the fields, the upside down pentagram is the symbol of bapometh or a goats head from the most ancient order of the druids or the early priesthood meaning to glorify the sheer brute power and strength of the animal world and its dominion. it is a symbol associated with free radicalism and individual existentialism ,representing law and order in the realm of physics concerning man and his spiritual well being as well as living in harmony with the natural kingdom about him and the appreciating of its bounty allowing for mans prosperity."

 

 

 

I think you might get a better response if you changed the star's design to something less controversial.... The 'eye candy' here (whether intentional or not) screams religion when you look at it... the celtic design just doesn't work on the star design ....

 

edited to add that the proverb really isn't as offensive as the star and I'm not positive that is what folks don't like in the design... personally the proverb doesn't offend me at all....

Edited by LionsLair

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Well, the biggest problem I'm facing is that it is an event about 10s. So I can't just very well use an eight-pointed star. I didn't use the ten-pointed star to symbolize anything in particular; I used it because it has ten points. If a ten-pointed star represents the Star of David (which has six points), then any number of points will represent the Star of David, and people who are offended by the Star of David are going to be offended. I'm not sure I can do anything about that, and not sure I would want to appease that sort of thinking anyway. I'd hate to pull a design because it's "too Jewish".

 

I'm also rather surprised to learn that the ten-pointed star on the back is a problem, but the ten-pointed star on the front isn't (everyone who's weighed in so far loves the front). I rather suspect that the real problem is that I stated that the star was inspired by Islamic art. Please note that the ten-pointed star is not a specific symbol in Islam of the religion itself, or of any of its concepts. It's just that it comes up in the geometric/pattern art favored by Islamic people because their religion forbids the depiction of people, and so their art is heavily biased towards pattern & tessellation. I also strongly suspect that had I never mentioned anything about Islam, there would be no problem.

 

I'm going to have to chew on this awhile. It is, truthfully, incredibly disturbing.

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I think if you simply changed the celtic design to something else (like the front) it would go a long way in fixing what is 'visually' disturbing in the design... the 10 pointed star isn't the problem, it's what folks see at first glance... which is the "Star of David" regardless of 6,8,10,12 points... folks still see the same thing with the celtic design in the star...

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JG... I think alot has to do with the fact it strongly resembles the Jewish Star of David and also resembles other religions such as Arab/Midieval Islam.

 

I think you might get a better response if you changed the star's design to something less controversial.... The 'eye candy' here (whether intentional or not) screams religion when you look at it... the celtic design just doesn't work on the star design ....

 

 

I'm also rather surprised to learn that the ten-pointed star on the back is a problem, but the ten-pointed star on the front isn't (everyone who's weighed in so far loves the front). I rather suspect that the real problem is that I stated that the star was inspired by Islamic art. Please note that the ten-pointed star is not a specific symbol in Islam of the religion itself, or of any of its concepts. It's just that it comes up in the geometric/pattern art favored by Islamic people because their religion forbids the depiction of people, and so their art is heavily biased towards pattern & tessellation. I also strongly suspect that had I never mentioned anything about Islam, there would be no problem.

 

I'm going to have to chew on this awhile. It is, truthfully, incredibly disturbing.

 

Now that Lion's Lair mentioned it I did very quickly think of the Star of David when seeing the back and its double star. Doesn't matter if it has a different number of points--that is what I thought of. The star on the front is completely different.

 

I didn't read your complete explanation of the symbolism on the back of the coin so I had no idea there was anything inspired by islamic art. There would STILL be a problem with it if you hadn't mentioned islam and for me even if you hadn't given any explanation at all.

 

Take the words "Yoruba Proverb" off and just put in something like 10-10-10 there.

 

I think everyone is telling you that the back should be completely redone. Like MustangJoni said we need noncontroversial eye candy to sell coins. This is going to be a fun event and a fun coin should go along with it. The front is geocaching related and goes along with the 10 theme but the back doesn't make it IMHO.

 

I'm sure there are other designers who could/should jump in here and make new suggestions for the back...

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I am sorry I asked Kat to post this artwork, I had not seen anything into this coin that others have. I was the one who gave her most of the ideas to start with including the stars. Instead of saying what you don't like why don't we start with a blank slate...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People can give suggestions and Mark can make a coin. I will take this artwork and the feedback and produce a "Good Karma" "Pay it Forward" type coin in the future. Not trying to "take my ball and go home" but with all the feedback, I think that is best.

 

By the way , I like the idea of a "Top Ten List". :)

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I think that what people are saying here is that they like the front of the coin just the back needs to be something different. But if you want the entire coin to stay both front and back then a Good Karma type coin might work.

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My point is that I find it disturbing that the back of the coin is controversial at all. That people could see a passing resemblance to the Star of David (and only a passing resemblance, since the Star of David is six-pointed, not ten-) and find it objectionable. That people would take offense to the word "Yoruba". That reference to the Yoruba, or the use of a star inspired by Islamic art, would make something "not fun".

 

I can totally understand where people might object because, say, they want something that ties closer to Geocaching. Or maybe they think that the design elements just don't work, aren't harmonious, don't like the colors, clash or are jarring, don't fit the theme, etc. I am completely open to criticism along those lines. But to ask me to change the design because it's "too Jewish", when the star is in fact not Jewish? Or because a reference to a people in Africa is somehow offensive or controversial (and yet no one can say why this is so)? Or because the star is inspired by Islamic art?

 

This is really freaking me out. At this point, I don't even want to consider changing it, because it feels like selling out to a line of thinking that I find appalling. And by now the coin is so encumbered with this controversy that it just can't, I guess, be fun. It's saddening to me, but it's time to pass on this and let another designer take a shot at a multi-event coin.

 

Thanks for the comments, though, and I do mean that sincerely. I do agree, now, that the hands didn't work given the theme of the coin (and I can see how they would have lead people off-track into thinking about religion), and I appreciate that advice very much.

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I think if you simply changed the celtic design to something else (like the front) it would go a long way in fixing what is 'visually' disturbing in the design... the 10 pointed star isn't the problem, it's what folks see at first glance... which is the "Star of David" regardless of 6,8,10,12 points... folks still see the same thing with the celtic design in the star...

 

He hit the nail on the head--it's what people see at first glance and so far everyone sees something religious.

 

I think what people are saying here is that the back of the coin doesn't work for this event for whatever reasons they have. Because there is controversy about these things the coin is "not fun" (To put my comment in perspective I also like cartoony type coins so for me they are fun)

 

For me the words Yoruba Proverb aren't in themselves objectionable. I just don't think they need to be there and are taking up space that could be better used to directly relate to the day and the event. That is why I suggested taking those two words off and didn't say anything about the proverb itself as it does relate to your theme on the front.

 

I think that you are hung up here on the "Yoruba, Islamic and Jewish aspects" when it seems that the comments say that it looks overall religious at first glance. No need for so much symbolism on this coin when no one will get it

 

You may find the thoughts expressed here appalling but I'm not sure that you understand what is being said. I don't care whether it has Islamic or Jewish aspects to it. This coin is made to be sold at the event. Some/many people will not buy ANY coin that has any religious overtones to it. If what they see at first glance appears religious they won't buy it. I am making no judgement here it is just the way it is.

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You asked people what they don't like about the coin and when they did now you think everyone is prejudiced or racist. Just because I don't like something doesn't make me racist or prejudiced. I don't like the Philadelphia flyers either. I think the coin needs to be something that every cacher will like no matter their religious and personal beliefs. So putting something on a coin that reflects religious or personal beliefs will not be accepted by the masses.

 

People are holding events and don't want to be stuck with left over coins. They are your sellers who know their customers. If you look at the coin people would have to explain to their customers what each section means. A seller shouldn't have to explain what Yoruba is or how it relates to caching. An event coin should be something that when you see it you say I want that instead of what does that mean.

 

I am saddened that Mike felt the need to remove the coin instead of working on it. Mike has some beautiful designs and I have no doubt that this would have been another but it seems personal viewpoints affected the production of this coin.

Edited by LadeBear68

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Wish we could see what this is all about...we were away a few days. :)

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I do understand what is being said. I understand very well that the point of the design is to make something that is marketable, and that people will be excited about, and that they'll enjoy making (for those who make them).

 

That being said, I also understand that several of you here are saying that the back of the coin has religious overtones. I just don't understand what it is about the design that is religious. This is why I asked the question. And I'm getting answers that keep shifting focus.

 

First it was the hands -- the hands made it seem religious. Okay, that I can get, so I removed the hands.

 

Then it was the word "Yoruba". Still no explanation as to what about the word "Yoruba" makes people think "religious". You're telling me that it's not religious, just unnecessary. Yet MustangJoni specifically said that if the word remained (and she didn't have any problems with the ten-pointed star), that she wouldn't participate in the project. So that tells me that the objection to the word is not that it's unnecessary.*

 

Then it was the star. It looks like a Star of David, a religious symbol, some of you are saying. If you're looking for a Star of David, you'll see a Star of David in any star you see that has an even number of points in excess of five. Zillions of Geocoin designs use stars, of many-pointed varieties. It seems unreal that I can't use a star because of some vague passing resemblance to a Jewish symbol that, frankly, I still don't see unless I tell myself "look at that star and see the Star of David".

 

Or, possibly, the problem with the ten-pointed star has to do with its origin in Islamic art. It doesn't matter that the ten-pointed star doesn't actually have any specific religious significance -- it's just objectionable somehow (that hasn't been clearly articulated, other than that it somehow seems religious to some of you).

 

It may seem that I'm hung up on this, but that's because those are the specific objections that have been presented to me when I have asked the question "what makes this coin seem religious to you?". The answers to the question does not make sense in a way that give me much hope that the next thing I come up with won't be perceived as religious.

 

Plus, this coin is about 10s. My goal was to cram all kinds of 10-related things in there: 10s in text, 10s in symbols, 10-pointed rays, 10-pointed polygons. I'd like to use 10-pointed stars in different configurations because they're an additional design element that use 10s, and I'd like to use them in a way that's not a repeat of what I'm doing on the front. It just kills me that this is unavoidably, somehow, religious. I get that it apparently just is, I really do. It just bugs the heck out of me, and contemplating the idea of removing it rings all the wrong bells in my conscience.

 

I'm not talking about an artist's refusal to change something because "art is her baby" here (and although I often do feel that way, I change stuff all the time anyway). I'm talking about the level of shame I feel about removing something because 1) it's vaguely Jewish or inspired by Islamic art and 2) that the idea of that something could passingly remind someone of Jewish or Islamic religion is so incredibly bad that it must be removed.

 

I also get that references to religion in general are upsetting and yes, I actually agree that they should be avoided in coins not explicitly about religion (especially events). But yes, I am very much keying into the specific objections to Judaism and Islam here. Especially because I don't really buy it; I'm sorry, but I don't. I don't see it. And I'm willing to bet that most people are not really all that aware of Islamic tessellation and would, in fact, not immediately think "Oh, that's Islamic" unless it was pointed out as being inspired by Islamic art (which is not the same thing).

 

I can come up with a ten-pointed eye-candy polygon or non-basket-weave star in a solid heartbeat. It'd take me about ten minutes. But I feel like I'd be selling some part of my soul if I did it, now. Maybe I'll feel different tomorrow.

 

*I would have to disagree with you here and say that it absolutely is necessary. I am citing the source of the proverb, which I think is especially important given that it's not a common English aphorism. Besides, I think it's pretty cool that it's a Yoruba proverb, and I like to underscore the global nature of geocaching by finding things I can tuck in there from other cultures.

Edited by Jackalgirl

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I wish I could see the images - have been camping at ASP geobash for the weekend, and have missed the conversation starter.

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To me, I don't see the hands as religious, but I don't see how they have anything to do with caching or a ten themed event.

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I had a glimpse at the proposed design earlier today, & I really liked the front, but now it seems to have gone away... :) .....I know I'm new here, but I do have an idea for the back, that might go along better with the originally proposed front. What about a design incorporating the 10 types of caches: Trad, Multi, Unknown, Earth, LB Hybrid, Event, Webcam, Virtual, Wherigo, & Project APE? Wouldn't that complement the front which was offered earlier, which (if I remember correctly) had 10 guidelines or ideals for geocachers, such as respect the environment, etc? As in, remember these correct actions (front) while pursuing these type caches (back)? What do y'all think? Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water! :)

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You asked people what they don't like about the coin and when they did now you think everyone is prejudiced or racist. Just because I don't like something doesn't make me racist or prejudiced. I don't like the Philadelphia flyers either. I think the coin needs to be something that every cacher will like no matter their religious and personal beliefs. So putting something on a coin that reflects religious or personal beliefs will not be accepted by the masses.

 

The coin does not reflect religious beliefs. There is nothing religious on that coin. None of those symbols are religious symbols. Not one. None of the wording and none of the design elements on the coin were inspired in any way, shape, or form, by religion. When I put the hands in there, originally, I was not thinking "oh, this is a nice religious symbol to use". I was thinking "what's a visual symbol for giving and getting? Oh, I know, outstretched hands -- and there are ten fingers, bonus!" I'm really serious about this. I get that despite all of this, it still comes across as religious. I just don't understand why.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "personal beliefs". The only specific point of view I'm trying to get across with the coin is that, essentially, it's good to do good things, and those that do good things have good things come to them. I cannot see why this would be objectionable or an unwarranted imposition of a personal belief on something. It is no different from the idea of "Pay it forward".

 

I have never said that you were prejudiced or racist, nor have I said that of anyone else. I am trying very hard, in fact, to extend the benefit of the doubt and understand the true origin of the objection to the design. So what I have asked for is specific, clear explanations as to what is the problem, because I'm going to need to know that in order to come up with a solution. I am getting vague, shifting answers that are not very useful (they boil down to "it's just religious. Change it.") and that, frankly, do leave me with a sense of personal shame (as I mentioned in another message).

 

People are holding events and don't want to be stuck with left over coins. They are your sellers who know their customers. If you look at the coin people would have to explain to their customers what each section means. A seller shouldn't have to explain what Yoruba is or how it relates to caching. An event coin should be something that when you see it you say I want that instead of what does that mean.

 

This confuses me. Why would the seller have to explain anything? The coin should be able to stand on its own. I pack meaning into the coins because I like to, but I should hope that they can stand on their own. Certain elements, such as the symbols for ten or the fact that the Yoruba are a people in Africa, might not be immediately apparent, but there's no requirement that the seller educate the buyer, any moreso that there was a requirement that you explain to your customers what all of the individual elements of the 09-09-09 coin meant. If the buyers want to know, they can find out on their own.

 

That having been said, I completely understand that the purpose here is to make sellable coins.

 

I am saddened that Mike felt the need to remove the coin instead of working on it. Mike has some beautiful designs and I have no doubt that this would have been another but it seems personal viewpoints affected the production of this coin.

 

I am in total agreement with you here.

Edited by Jackalgirl

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To me, I don't see the hands as religious, but I don't see how they have anything to do with caching or a ten themed event.

 

A completely valid criticism!

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Okay, I am home and very disappointed in the turn this thread has taken.

 

JG, let me say first off that I find your designs beautiful. This is a beautiful design also. Your 999 was awesome, and sold well at my event.

 

I will say that I am extremely disappointed that you have decided to focus on a statement that I quickly deleted...over and over again....even after I pointed out that I deleted the statement. You really want to know the evil reason why I made the statement...Why I said that that I wanted that "Yoruba Proverb" deleted? Well, the evil reason was because I didn't want to explain what it was over and over to my customers.

 

Okay, now down to business, which this is. You are not asking us to buy one or two of these coins. We have to by 50 or 100 of them. The last event I invested $525 on coins. I spent $400 on other items for my event, and the coin helps pay for that. I don't want to lose that investment in the coins, and it is nice to have that little profit to pay for the other goodies that I giveaway at my event.

 

Was I offended by this coin? Goodness no! I am going to make a business decision based on the final design whether this will sell to my customers. My customers are not coin people, they want a souvenir of the event. Would they be offended by the coin...probably not...but will they buy it? I don't think so. I really don't think I will sell out that version of the coin.

 

At this point, I feel discouraged from giving any feedback on this coin that I had expected to invest over $500 in. So I am done with feedback. I won't make any statements that I feel might make it something universally acceptable to all the events. I'll just look at the final design and decide if I want in or out. I like doing a group coin, but not having any input in the design is discouraging.

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Oh, and one more thing...

 

We were asked before you posted for ideas for the theme of the coin. We heard "Top 10", "Hang 10" "Binary" etc

 

Never once did I hear the theme "Yoruba Proverbs"

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Okay, I am home and very disappointed in the turn this thread has taken.

 

JG, let me say first off that I find your designs beautiful. This is a beautiful design also. Your 999 was awesome, and sold well at my event.

 

I will say that I am extremely disappointed that you have decided to focus on a statement that I quickly deleted...over and over again....even after I pointed out that I deleted the statement. You really want to know the evil reason why I made the statement...Why I said that that I wanted that "Yoruba Proverb" deleted? Well, the evil reason was because I didn't want to explain what it was over and over to my customers.

 

Okay, now down to business, which this is. You are not asking us to buy one or two of these coins. We have to by 50 or 100 of them. The last event I invested $525 on coins. I spent $400 on other items for my event, and the coin helps pay for that. I don't want to lose that investment in the coins, and it is nice to have that little profit to pay for the other goodies that I giveaway at my event.

 

Was I offended by this coin? Goodness no! I am going to make a business decision based on the final design whether this will sell to my customers. My customers are not coin people, they want a souvenir of the event. Would they be offended by the coin...probably not...but will they buy it? I don't think so. I really don't think I will sell out that version of the coin.

 

At this point, I feel discouraged from giving any feedback on this coin that I had expected to invest over $500 in. So I am done with feedback. I won't make any statements that I feel might make it something universally acceptable to all the events. I'll just look at the final design and decide if I want in or out. I like doing a group coin, but not having any input in the design is discouraging.

 

I realize in reading back that I did misread the thrust of your objection, and I apologize profusely for that. I understand that as resellers, you have to gauge what you think your customers will buy. Although I might not personally think that the average buyer would object, it's not my call -- they're not my customers & I don't know them.

 

The original specific objection was tied to the phrase "Bible Belt" (and you weren't even the first person to bring it up). My interpretation of this was "people in the Bible Belt will object to this on religious grounds". When trying to find out what specifically was objectionable or how the design was religious, I got a whole host of speculation that (eventually) boiled down to "we don't know. It just looks religious", by way of "because it looks Jewish/Islamic" (and you didn't say any of that). It just wasn't very helpful at all.

 

If you don't feel it'd sell, then you don't feel it'd sell. I'd like to know why, of course, because it'll help me design more sell-able coins, which is why I ask, and why I ask for specifics. If the answer is "it'll turn off my Bible Belt Christian customers", that's a totally valid statement. If you think that you'll have to explain "what's 'Yoruba'" over and over and simply don't want to, that's fine too (but you did explain it in the context of "the Bible Belt" in your message, and I just can't help but hear the phrase "the Bible Belt" and see that there is an issue of religion, since that is what "the Bible Belt" is all about).

 

Please understand that my thing -- especially for these kinds of events -- is to cram all kinds of symbols and symbolism into coins. I never ever try to specifically offend people, and I try to stay away from religious symbols in coins like this because I don't want to offend anyone (or take anyone's religion lightly). The idea that I have to design based on the sensibilities of a subset of Bible Belt Christians liable to take offense to something that, in passing, appears to be symbolic of a religion that is not their own*, and that because of that I have to avoid certain sources of inspiration, is upsetting to me. Obviously, if I want those particular Bible Belt Christians as customers (or if you, as customers, want them as YOUR customers while selling my designs), I would have to do that.

 

*I clarify this because my husband, who very much considers himself a fundamentalist Bible Belt Christian, had absolutely no problems with the design.

 

Which is why, in consultation with Mike, I pulled the design, and won't be doing any more large group designs like this. We're looking at coming out with the coin as a totally separate thing (and I'll probably be moving some of the elements around, such as moving the proverb to the front of the coin so that its relevance to and support of the idea of the "ten good deeds of geocaching" is more obvious).

 

I'm very, very sorry to have upset you so. I hope we can continue to have productive conversations in the future, and I certainly hope that you will not hesitate to give me comments or criticism if I ask for them, even if only by PM or email. I would welcome them.

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The coin does not reflect religious beliefs. There is nothing religious on that coin. None of those symbols are religious symbols. Not one. None of the wording and none of the design elements on the coin were inspired in any way, shape, or form, by religion. When I put the hands in there, originally, I was not thinking "oh, this is a nice religious symbol to use". I was thinking "what's a visual symbol for giving and getting? Oh, I know, outstretched hands -- and there are ten fingers, bonus!" I'm really serious about this. I get that despite all of this, it still comes across as religious. I just don't understand why.

 

 

For me the first glance looked overall religious and I can't explain why it just does to me. Maybe that is what it is for others so it's hard to articulate the specific reasons to you which you insist on.

 

I'm the one who first stated the phrase bible Belt and I should be taking the heat for that and not Joni. I looked back and you are the only one who mentioned about the Islamic inspiration being a problem

 

I like Joni would like more input and suggestions into the coin that we will sell at our event. I liked the idea behind the Geocoinfest 2007 coin. Several people submitted designs and a vote was taken. I'd like to see several designs and be able to vote on them and not just one being put forth.

 

I'm sorry that you feel the need to pull and the design and more improtantly take yourself out of designing future group coins. I hope that you reconsider that...

Edited by LadyBee4T

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Oh, and one more thing...

 

We were asked before you posted for ideas for the theme of the coin. We heard "Top 10", "Hang 10" "Binary" etc

 

Never once did I hear the theme "Yoruba Proverbs"

 

Just to clarify (I mentioned it in my original post, but have since deleted that), I did not know that I was designing for the 10-10-10 multi-event when I originally began the project. I had originally not intended to do this at all. Mike asked me for a design, which I thought was related to some other event, and gave me the design elements & ideas. Had I known it was for this particular multi-event, I'd certainly have come in and read the whole thread.

 

The phrase "Yoruba Proverbs" was not the theme of the coin, nor did I intend it to be the theme of the multi-event. It's just the source of the proverb. It's the best quotation I could find while searching the Web for quotes with the word "ten" in them that seemed to be -- or could be, by extension -- related to Geocaching in some way. The theme of the coin was "10-10-10".

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The coin does not reflect religious beliefs. There is nothing religious on that coin. None of those symbols are religious symbols. Not one. None of the wording and none of the design elements on the coin were inspired in any way, shape, or form, by religion. When I put the hands in there, originally, I was not thinking "oh, this is a nice religious symbol to use". I was thinking "what's a visual symbol for giving and getting? Oh, I know, outstretched hands -- and there are ten fingers, bonus!" I'm really serious about this. I get that despite all of this, it still comes across as religious. I just don't understand why.

 

 

For me the first glance looked overall religious and I can't explain why it just does to me. Maybe that is what it is for others so it's hard to articulate the specific reasons to you which you insist on.

 

Well, at this point I'm willing to accept that there is no specific reason. It's not at all helpful to me, because I can't replace one design element that I don't think is off-puttingly religious (to a very specific religious group) with another and not run into the chance that the other design element won't be perceived as off-puttingly religious also. So that's where I'm stuck. Er, was stuck, I mean.

Edited by Jackalgirl

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Can we steer this back to...

 

Any ideas?

 

Would love to hear what others have to say? Hadn't seen these,

"Top 10", "Hang 10" "Binary" etc
Thanks.

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Oh, and one more thing...

 

We were asked before you posted for ideas for the theme of the coin. We heard "Top 10", "Hang 10" "Binary" etc

 

Never once did I hear the theme "Yoruba Proverbs"

 

Just to clarify (I mentioned it in my original post, but have since deleted that), I did not know that I was designing for the 10-10-10 multi-event when I originally began the project. I had originally not intended to do this at all. Mike asked me for a design, which I thought was related to some other event, and gave me the design elements & ideas. Had I known it was for this particular multi-event, I'd certainly have come in and read the whole thread.

 

The phrase "Yoruba Proverbs" was not the theme of the coin, nor did I intend it to be the theme of the multi-event. It's just the source of the proverb. It's the best quotation I could find while searching the Web for quotes with the word "ten" in them that seemed to be -- or could be, by extension -- related to Geocaching in some way. The theme of the coin was "10-10-10".

 

JG, I love most of your designs. You personally, I like very much! I think you are a smart and talented young lady. I would never want to discourage you from doing the group coin designs.

 

Last year, I was designing a coin for the Texas 2009 club coin. One of the big images people see when they think of Texas is a longhorn. So you would think it would be acceptable to put that image on the coin. Well think again! The longhorn is also the symbol of the University of Texas, who have a big rivalry with the Texas A&M university and University of Oklahoma. And both universities have a huge fanbase in Texas. Should I have put the longhorn on and then explain to all my customers that it is not meant as the image for UT, or do I just leave off that image, and sell the coin to everybody.

 

There is no longhorn on the 2009 Texas coin.

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Which is why, in consultation with Mike, I pulled the design, and won't be doing any more large group designs like this. We're looking at coming out with the coin as a totally separate thing

 

I don't understand your thought process of I am taking my coin and going home and I am never designing a large group coin again. I have seen this type of behavior before and it was not well received in the forums. It appears that many people like your designs and have had no issue with prior symbols in your coins. Why don't you accept the criticism and re-design the back or come up with a different theme instead of running away?

 

Pulling the artwork and being defensive because you didn't receive the praise you wanted seems silly to me. If you don't want people to give you feedback don't ask for it.

 

You should also be grateful that people gave you feedback now instead of when Mike was trying to sell the coin to event organizers.

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Oh, and one more thing...

 

We were asked before you posted for ideas for the theme of the coin. We heard "Top 10", "Hang 10" "Binary" etc

 

Never once did I hear the theme "Yoruba Proverbs"

 

I meant this in a light hearted manner. I was laughing when I typed it. I'm surprised you couldn't hear my words giggling.

 

But Yoruba Proverbs are a bit obscure. :)

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In all honesty, I LOVED the front. so did everyone else...at least the comments I saw. I'd really love to at least keep that part on this coin.

 

Does anyone have a problem with that front?

Personally, I would like a coin that celebrated '10'....and not some theme that had 10 in it.

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Which is why, in consultation with Mike, I pulled the design, and won't be doing any more large group designs like this. We're looking at coming out with the coin as a totally separate thing

 

I don't understand your thought process of I am taking my coin and going home and I am never designing a large group coin again. I have seen this type of behavior before and it was not well received in the forums. It appears that many people like your designs and have had no issue with prior symbols in your coins. Why don't you accept the criticism and re-design the back or come up with a different theme instead of running away?

 

Pulling the artwork and being defensive because you didn't receive the praise you wanted seems silly to me. If you don't want people to give you feedback don't ask for it.

 

You should also be grateful that people gave you feedback now instead of when Mike was trying to sell the coin to event organizers.

 

I'm sorry that's the impression I'm giving. I thought I explained myself fairly clearly. I'm sorry that you feel justified in explaining my thoughts and motivations that way, because as I've stated, that's not what's going on. I'm not sure that continuing to explain will make any difference to you, though, if what I've said so far hasn't made my position clear.

Edited by Jackalgirl

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damm i missed the pictures!

 

but willing to make a (one more) 10-10-10 event in Portugal

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Oh, and one more thing...

 

We were asked before you posted for ideas for the theme of the coin. We heard "Top 10", "Hang 10" "Binary" etc

 

Never once did I hear the theme "Yoruba Proverbs"

 

Just to clarify (I mentioned it in my original post, but have since deleted that), I did not know that I was designing for the 10-10-10 multi-event when I originally began the project. I had originally not intended to do this at all. Mike asked me for a design, which I thought was related to some other event, and gave me the design elements & ideas. Had I known it was for this particular multi-event, I'd certainly have come in and read the whole thread.

 

The phrase "Yoruba Proverbs" was not the theme of the coin, nor did I intend it to be the theme of the multi-event. It's just the source of the proverb. It's the best quotation I could find while searching the Web for quotes with the word "ten" in them that seemed to be -- or could be, by extension -- related to Geocaching in some way. The theme of the coin was "10-10-10".

 

JG, I love most of your designs. You personally, I like very much! I think you are a smart and talented young lady. I would never want to discourage you from doing the group coin designs.

 

Last year, I was designing a coin for the Texas 2009 club coin. One of the big images people see when they think of Texas is a longhorn. So you would think it would be acceptable to put that image on the coin. Well think again! The longhorn is also the symbol of the University of Texas, who have a big rivalry with the Texas A&M university and University of Oklahoma. And both universities have a huge fanbase in Texas. Should I have put the longhorn on and then explain to all my customers that it is not meant as the image for UT, or do I just leave off that image, and sell the coin to everybody.

 

There is no longhorn on the 2009 Texas coin.

 

Completely understood. Look, the problem is not the feedback, nor is it the criticism. I wish I could make this more clear. I asked for the criticism, I wanted the criticism. Please go back and read my posts; remember when the commentary first came across that the back looked religious and that people didn't like the hands? I was surprised by it, but thanked everyone for it, and then came back with another design and specifically asked if it looked more secular.

 

Notwithstanding what LadeBear68 is saying about my motivation and what I'm thinking, I recognize that fact and am fully capable of taking that onboard. Heck, if you said "this is a big pile of poop and I would not buy it with a ten-foot pole", that'd be fine. Sure, it might sting a little, but I did ask for it and it is an opinion. I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know why, of course, because that's part of my learning process.

 

It's not a problem that people are asking for changes. People ask for changes all the time.

 

I guess what it boils down to is that as an artist, I want to be able to pull my inspiration from everywhere, and I don't want to have to avoid certain sources of inspiration because those sources might offend an incredibly small subset of the customer population. That was the original issue; it wasn't that people don't know who the Yoruba are, or that (overall) the coin uses religious elements and it's best not to put religious imagery on coins meant for a general, large-scale, fun event (and I agree with that). It's that the back of the coin would be problematic in the Bible Belt because of the proverb being religious (that was the initial objection to the proverb, which is not religious), or that "it looks Jewish/Islamic". I do not, as an artist, want to remove a design element because the Islamic inspiration for it might offend Bible Belt Christians, because I find that personally upsetting. I would have been willing to consider removing the star if enough people really truly think "Star of David" and, by extension "religious", but frankly that's just so odd to me (and because I don't see it), that makes me feel pretty wretched, too, and /that/ is what's making me want to pull up stakes, not the criticism itself. I'm hoping that this is clear, I really am.

 

If I'm going to have to avoid, say, being inspired by Islamic art in the future because it might offend Bible Belt Christians when it comes to big-scale group coins like this, or to not cite the origin of a phrase because Bible Belt Christians might be offended, or because using that source would turn off customers, well, I think I would just rather let someone else have the opportunity to do it. I understand that a design has to be appropriate for the customers, and if that means leaving off Islamic-inspired elements, then I understand that that's something that people designing for those customers will need to keep in mind. I just don't want to design that way. (Please note that I'm not talking about your criticism in particular when I'm saying this, because I understand that your own criticism is that you don't think your customers will know who the Yoruba are, and you don't want to have to explain it. But specific criticism was leveled within the framework of Bible Belt Christians being offended, and that's what I'm addressing.)

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Oh, and one more thing...

 

We were asked before you posted for ideas for the theme of the coin. We heard "Top 10", "Hang 10" "Binary" etc

 

Never once did I hear the theme "Yoruba Proverbs"

 

Just to clarify (I mentioned it in my original post, but have since deleted that), I did not know that I was designing for the 10-10-10 multi-event when I originally began the project. I had originally not intended to do this at all. Mike asked me for a design, which I thought was related to some other event, and gave me the design elements & ideas. Had I known it was for this particular multi-event, I'd certainly have come in and read the whole thread.

 

The phrase "Yoruba Proverbs" was not the theme of the coin, nor did I intend it to be the theme of the multi-event. It's just the source of the proverb. It's the best quotation I could find while searching the Web for quotes with the word "ten" in them that seemed to be -- or could be, by extension -- related to Geocaching in some way. The theme of the coin was "10-10-10".

 

JG, I love most of your designs. You personally, I like very much! I think you are a smart and talented young lady. I would never want to discourage you from doing the group coin designs.

 

Last year, I was designing a coin for the Texas 2009 club coin. One of the big images people see when they think of Texas is a longhorn. So you would think it would be acceptable to put that image on the coin. Well think again! The longhorn is also the symbol of the University of Texas, who have a big rivalry with the Texas A&M university and University of Oklahoma. And both universities have a huge fanbase in Texas. Should I have put the longhorn on and then explain to all my customers that it is not meant as the image for UT, or do I just leave off that image, and sell the coin to everybody.

 

There is no longhorn on the 2009 Texas coin.

 

Completely understood. Look, the problem is not the feedback, nor is it the criticism. I wish I could make this more clear. I asked for the criticism, I wanted the criticism. Please go back and read my posts; remember when the commentary first came across that the back looked religious and that people didn't like the hands? I was surprised by it, but thanked everyone for it, and then came back with another design and specifically asked if it looked more secular.

 

Notwithstanding what LadeBear68 is saying about my motivation and what I'm thinking, I recognize that fact and am fully capable of taking that onboard. Heck, if you said "this is a big pile of poop and I would not buy it with a ten-foot pole", that'd be fine. Sure, it might sting a little, but I did ask for it and it is an opinion. I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know why, of course, because that's part of my learning process.

 

It's not a problem that people are asking for changes. People ask for changes all the time.

 

I guess what it boils down to is that as an artist, I want to be able to pull my inspiration from everywhere, and I don't want to have to avoid certain sources of inspiration because those sources might offend an incredibly small subset of the customer population. That was the original issue; it wasn't that people don't know who the Yoruba are, or that (overall) the coin uses religious elements and it's best not to put religious imagery on coins meant for a general, large-scale, fun event (and I agree with that). It's that the back of the coin would be problematic in the Bible Belt because of the proverb being religious (that was the initial objection to the proverb, which is not religious), or that "it looks Jewish/Islamic". I do not, as an artist, want to remove a design element because the Islamic inspiration for it might offend Bible Belt Christians, because I find that personally upsetting. I would have been willing to consider removing the star if enough people really truly think "Star of David" and, by extension "religious", but frankly that's just so odd to me (and because I don't see it), that makes me feel pretty wretched, too, and /that/ is what's making me want to pull up stakes, not the criticism itself. I'm hoping that this is clear, I really am.

 

If I'm going to have to avoid, say, being inspired by Islamic art in the future because it might offend Bible Belt Christians when it comes to big-scale group coins like this, or to not cite the origin of a phrase because Bible Belt Christians might be offended, or because using that source would turn off customers, well, I think I would just rather let someone else have the opportunity to do it. I understand that a design has to be appropriate for the customers, and if that means leaving off Islamic-inspired elements, then I understand that that's something that people designing for those customers will need to keep in mind. I just don't want to design that way. (Please note that I'm not talking about your criticism in particular when I'm saying this, because I understand that your own criticism is that you don't think your customers will know who the Yoruba are, and you don't want to have to explain it. But specific criticism was leveled within the framework of Bible Belt Christians being offended, and that's what I'm addressing.)

 

I think you are missing the difference between a coin you are selling, and a coin you are asking me to invest in and sell.

 

Sometimes when designing, you need to keep in mind the audience that you are designing for. If I contracted with you to do my personal coin, would you design me a coin that has a Camaro on it? You might be inspired by Camaros, but I'm a Ford girl.

 

It is really the same thing here. That coin that you designed is lovely, and will sell well individually, but the customer base is going to be the geocoin collectors.

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the buzz is all over the internet! rumour has it, theres a heretic here designing a pagan geocoin!!!! my satanic customers want it!!!!! they must have it!!!! it is so hard to please the finicky satanic bible belt these days!!!! ;)

 

please laugh a little people...geocoins and geocaching are for the light-hearted...diplomacy when sprinkled with a little humor can move mountains! ;)

Edited by Odyssey Voyager

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I think you are missing the difference between a coin you are selling, and a coin you are asking me to invest in and sell.

 

Sometimes when designing, you need to keep in mind the audience that you are designing for. If I contracted with you to do my personal coin, would you design me a coin that has a Camaro on it? You might be inspired by Camaros, but I'm a Ford girl.

 

It is really the same thing here. That coin that you designed is lovely, and will sell well individually, but the customer base is going to be the geocoin collectors.

 

Oh, please understand that I get that, I do. If you're going to sell something for an audience, it has to be appropriate to the audience. I completely understand that. I don't know how many times I have to say that I get it.

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I'm sorry I missed the artwork and I'm excited to see whatever someone comes up with.

By the way, I thought I posted months ago that I'm interested in hosting a 10-10-10 event here in Georgia but I don't see it so here it is: I'll be happy to host this multi-event in GA! With the coin!

 

Janet

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wow, I don't even know how to respond or start...

 

...guess I'll keep my opinions to myself from now on regardless if anyone asks for them.

 

Seems I should have learned my lesson from a few years back when I didn't follow the normal "ooohhh's and aaaahhhhh's".... "pretty coin" opinion it seems everyone looks for, yet they seem to get defensive when that's not what they receive...

 

 

I'll like to say I am sorry, but I just can't... I saw what I saw, had an opinion and stated it... like the artist in you not wanting to change your art for the sake of compremise, I'm not willing to change my opinion because of controversy.

 

I can't say I understand why you don't see what we are talking about. It's been explained as clearly as it can be. It's not that the artwork isn't good, it's just not the artwork we as investors want to pay for. We're just asking you to change the tire, not buy a new car... (bad cliche I know, but the best I can come up with at the moment) I also don't understand the stance you are taking of packing up your toys and going home and not playing anymore. I sincerly hope you don't, cause I happen to like most of your work.

 

But hey, that's another opinion and they don't seem to bode well with others unless they are "positive comments only"

 

If I don't have a positive opinion from now on I'll bite my tongue and not respond at all...... deal?

 

 

For what it's worth the bottm line here is the front was awesome and the back just needed some tweaking for everyone's liking (the folks investing in the project... not just the artist's liking)

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