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cat_e_bear
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Is there anywhere to go for help to solve a math prob as I have been to where I think the cache is but get no where fast?

Email the cache owner.

 

If the owner declines to help, then you still have at least four other options:

(1) Ignore the cache,

(2) Enlist the help of another cacher who hasn’t found it yet, and work together until you solve it,

(3) Keep plugging away at it until you solve it yourself, or

(4) Keep plugging away at it (alone or with help) until it is no longer fun, at which time return to option number (1).

 

I myself exercise each of these options regularly, as I see fit. The goal is to have fun.

 

Good luck!

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Yep, the owner would be a good place to start...but may not be the ultimate authority for the math problem...I have seen caches that couldn't be found by solving the problem simply because the cache owner couldn't do the math properly. I actually got a FTF on one like that simply by using the description, the clue and my knowledge of the area...because the math put me over 100 feet away from where the cache was actually hidden. :)

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I actually got a FTF on one like that simply by using the description, the clue and my knowledge of the area...because the math put me over 100 feet away from where the cache was actually hidden.
I once found a puzzle cache that was located about 150' from my GZ, but that was my own fault. I had solved the puzzle incorrectly, and had the wrong coordinates. (The information the puzzle was based on had changed recently, and I had used the new information rather than the information that was current when the cache had been hidden, which is what the cache instructed me to do.)
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Is there anywhere to go for help to solve a math prob as I have been to where I think the cache is but get no where fast?

Email the cache owner.

 

If the owner declines to help, then you still have at least four other options:

(1) Ignore the cache,

(2) Enlist the help of another cacher who hasn’t found it yet, and work together until you solve it,

(3) Keep plugging away at it until you solve it yourself, or

(4) Keep plugging away at it (alone or with help) until it is no longer fun, at which time return to option number (1).

 

I myself exercise each of these options regularly, as I see fit. The goal is to have fun.

 

Good luck!

 

I would add another option to that list.

 

If the cache owner won't offer a thumbs up or thumbs down on the coordinates you got from your calculations, you could email one of the recent finders, explain the situation and tell them you only want verification of the coordinates.

 

Any cache owner who won't verify has no reason to complain if someone else does supply it.

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Any cache owner who won't verify has no reason to complain if someone else does supply it.

I respectfully disagree.

 

The cache owner has full control over what hints he gives out. By asking in a manner that is pretty "tell me or I'll just get a cheat from someone else" is pretty darn close to blackmail and reduces the control the owner has over his adventure. He might as well make it a 1/1 traditional if that's the case.

 

You're going down a slippery slope. Personally, I refuse to give clues to other folks' caches and I think a little less of anyone who asks. If the owner won't provide the clue, then refer back to my first post above.

 

My take on help for puzzles is the same as carrying you up the mountain you can't climb. That or bringing the cache container to you because you can't or refuse to physically get to the cache. With puzzles, it's not physical, but mental.

 

Can't solve it? Put on your ignore list just like that SCUBA cache or rock climbing cache you can't get and move on.

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Any cache owner who won't verify has no reason to complain if someone else does supply it.

I respectfully disagree.

 

The cache owner has full control over what hints he gives out. By asking in a manner that is pretty "tell me or I'll just get a cheat from someone else" is pretty darn close to blackmail and reduces the control the owner has over his adventure. He might as well make it a 1/1 traditional if that's the case.

 

You're going down a slippery slope. Personally, I refuse to give clues to other folks' caches and I think a little less of anyone who asks. If the owner won't provide the clue, then refer back to my first post above.

 

My take on help for puzzles is the same as carrying you up the mountain you can't climb. That or bringing the cache container to you because you can't or refuse to physically get to the cache. With puzzles, it's not physical, but mental.

 

Can't solve it? Put on your ignore list just like that SCUBA cache or rock climbing cache you can't get and move on.

 

I have no problem pointing someone in the right direction (if I know what direction that is). That isnt actually solving the cache for them. It takes the fun out of it if someone just gives you the right answer. If you ask the cache owner to verify and most will at least tell you if your right or wrong.

 

I love Puzzle caches but sometimes it takes brain storming with others to set you in the right direction.

 

As for the "I will give no one help attitude", as far as Im concerned this is supposed to be fun and adding stupid ettiquette to a sport were rules already are there is just lowsy. Its for fun. So why add ettiquette. If someone tells me at a table while eating that its good ettiquette to eat with a nice and fork and insists I do so, I might just be tempted to use my fingers just to annoy them. Its the stuff of revolutions is that. Thats how an awful lot of rebellions happen. If you dont want to help, then dont, but dont be the kill joy that sits in the corner telling everyone what you would or would not do. Your ideas and believes are yours, dont force them on others.

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Certainly the cache owner or a previous finder would be the first place to start looking for help.

 

I wanted to do a local cache that required solving several algebra equations. I know nothing of algebra.

 

So I contacted a previous finder and offered him a deal: if he gave me the algebra answers I'd give him the missing coords to a mystery cache he wanted to complete. We traded info, found our caches, and everybody had fun.

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Certainly the cache owner or a previous finder would be the first place to start looking for help.

 

I wanted to do a local cache that required solving several algebra equations. I know nothing of algebra.

 

So I contacted a previous finder and offered him a deal: if he gave me the algebra answers I'd give him the missing coords to a mystery cache he wanted to complete. We traded info, found our caches, and everybody had fun.

Sounds like a perfect solution to circumvent the desires of the owner. When I hid caches that were hard puzzle ones, I put stuff in the clues that had elementary trig, geometry, morse code, chemistry - you name it. I thought it was fun to hear the people trying to figure things out, especially at events. I put a lot of effort into placing those caches and appreciated those that put a lot of effort into solving/finding them. Not once did I blantantly turn down a request for a "push in the right direction".

 

There are few things I consider "cheating" in this game, but websites that give the final coordinates for puzzles are right up there, as are any means of sharing the final coordinates that don't involve the owner of the puzzle. It hearkens back to my teacher days where if I asked a particularly tough question, I would have no problem with a student asking me for clarification and a hint. But if that Student A turned to the Student B and asked for the answer and Student A gave him the answer to tell me, Student A becomes little more than a ventriloquist's manequin.

 

Ask the owner for help. Then if you still can't solve it - move on to the next cache.

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Any cache owner who won't verify has no reason to complain if someone else does supply it.

I respectfully disagree.

 

The cache owner has full control over what hints he gives out. By asking in a manner that is pretty "tell me or I'll just get a cheat from someone else" is pretty darn close to blackmail and reduces the control the owner has over his adventure. He might as well make it a 1/1 traditional if that's the case.

 

You're going down a slippery slope. Personally, I refuse to give clues to other folks' caches and I think a little less of anyone who asks. If the owner won't provide the clue, then refer back to my first post above.

He wasn't talking about giving clues. He was talking about verifying coordinates.

 

If I finished a newspaper crossword and only wanted to verify my answers, yet discovered to my frustration that my copy of the newspaper was missing the page with the solution, would you refuse me a peek at your intact copy? Would you consider it "pretty darn close to blackmail" and an attack on the puzzle's author if you were to help me?

 

As for giving hints OR verifying coords on other people's caches: While I respect your personal ethical standard -- and even somewhat share the same standard myself -- I think you are taking these thinks way too seriously.

 

Fact: Once you put something out there, it's out there. Whether it is a container of swag, a travel bug, or the solution to a cache puzzle, you are not only taking a risk every time you release something into the wilds, but you are also resigning any claims of entitlement to control. Any attempt to mentally will it to be otherwise is a recipe for certain disappointment. Everyone has his own standard when it comes to the details of the ethics of caching. If you don't want people sharing help on your puzzle cache, then the only way to prevent it is to not hide the puzzle cache in the first place.

 

Getting offended over a shared puzzle solution makes about as much sense to me as getting offended over one's cache container being dragged off by a wild animal. It happens. Given enough time, in fact, it is a near certainty. Each is a risk one takes when one leaves things out in the environment. Taking personal offense when a predictable outcome happens demonstrates a misunderstanding of reality.

 

Besides: If a previous finder of one of my puzzle caches wants to help another cacher find my cache, why should I care? Each of them is responsible for his own entertainment. How much or how little fun they cheat themselves out of, and how they choose to interact between the two of them, is really none of my business. As long as they are both having fun I consider my cache a total success! Don't you like seekers of your caches to have fun, Coyote? Or do you feel more successful as a cache owner when a seeker gets frustrated and gives up because your email account is temporarily fubar and everyone else, knowing your standard, refuses to help?

Edited by KBI
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Getting offended over a shared puzzle solution makes about as much sense to me as getting offended over one's cache container being dragged off by a wild animal. It happens. Given enough time, in fact, it is a near certainty.
Except (with a few exceptions) most cachers are not wild animals. We are humans with some standard of right and wrong.
Besides: If a previous finder of one of my puzzle caches wants to help another cacher find my cache, why should I care? Each of them is responsible for his own entertainment. How much or how little fun they cheat themselves out of, and how they choose to interact between the two of them, is really none of my business.
Just because someone else lowers their standards of ethics doesn't mean I should lower mine.
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Getting offended over a shared puzzle solution makes about as much sense to me as getting offended over one's cache container being dragged off by a wild animal. It happens. Given enough time, in fact, it is a near certainty.
Except (with a few exceptions) most cachers are not wild animals. We are humans with some standard of right and wrong.
The only reason I can imagine you would respond with that comment is because you apparently misunderstood me. It was not my intent to imply that I think it is okay for cachers to steal each other's cache containers. You quoted my statement out of context, and I can see where you might have gotten an inaccurate impression from the resulting incomplete quote. A read of my entire post will reveal the full meaning.

 

Or ... is it your position that the sharing of puzzle solutions among cachers is the moral equivalent of people stealing other people’s cache containers?

 

That doesn’t sound reasonable to me. Perhaps, then, I may have misunderstood you as well. If so, please clarify.

 

Besides: If a previous finder of one of my puzzle caches wants to help another cacher find my cache, why should I care? Each of them is responsible for his own entertainment. How much or how little fun they cheat themselves out of, and how they choose to interact between the two of them, is really none of my business
Just because someone else lowers their standards of ethics doesn't mean I should lower mine.

It’s not a "lower" standard. It’s just a different standard.

 

Each of us draws our individual ethical line in a different and unique place. You have the right – the duty – to decide what is best for you. That someone else chooses to draw their line in a different place, however, doesn’t automatically make theirs wrong, bad, evil or "lower." Just different.

 

If you don't want to ever help a fellow cacher with another cacher's puzzle, that's your choice. But it's not mine. I fail to see how either providing or accepting such help makes a victim out of the cache owner (or anyone else).

Edited by KBI
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Do I worry about how others find my caches. Not really. The standards each cacher makes for themselves won't change due to our/your/my opinion. A local cacher went to several events with me and did numerous searches. When I looked at the logs it showed the spouse's name had also done them. That's their problem not mine. I don't want to take credit for one that I haven't done. I have a 5/5 7 stage that people trade some of the info on where a particular stage is located. I still haven't seen those people go to the effort of actually finding the cache. I have a numerous Puzzle Caches and one set requires assistance to do both of them. A cacher found a unique way around part of the requirements to zero in on the final stage of one of them. I was, to say the least, impressed at the way he managed to solve the puzzle. So when he contacted me about a little discrepancy, I offered a little advice that allowed him to find the cache. There is no point in my having put out 100's of caches, (I enjoy putting them out), and not have people find them. Seems to me that is a waste of time. I want people to think, scratch their heads and then get the satisfaction of finding those that are not your PNG type of cache. That's just IMHO. :)

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All should be aware that while I wear a "Moderator" tag next to my name in the forums, it is a shortcoming of the software that it cannot be designated by forum. I am a moderator in the Getting Started forum, and not the Geocaching Topics. The opinions below are my own and not representative of Groundspeak or Geocaching.com.

 

Getting offended over a shared puzzle solution makes about as much sense to me as getting offended over one's cache container being dragged off by a wild animal. It happens. Given enough time, in fact, it is a near certainty.
Except (with a few exceptions) most cachers are not wild animals. We are humans with some standard of right and wrong.
The only reason I can imagine you would respond with that comment is because you apparently misunderstood me. It was not my intent to imply that I think it is okay for cachers to steal each other's cache containers. You quoted my statement out of context, and I can see where you might have gotten an inaccurate impression from the resulting incomplete quote. A read of my entire post will reveal the full meaning.

 

Or ... is it your position that the sharing of puzzle solutions among cachers is the moral equivalent of people stealing other people’s cache containers?

 

That doesn’t sound reasonable to me. Perhaps, then, I may have misunderstood you as well. If so, please clarify.

To clarify, your original post was the one that likened "Getting offended over a shared puzzle solution makes about as much sense to me as getting offended over one's cache container being dragged off by a wild animal." I was saying that I wouldn't get offended by an animal dragging off a cache, because an animal doesn't have ethics. I would be "upset" by a human with some moral and ethical center helping another cacher (or a cacher asking for help from someone other than the cache owner). It was your comparison; I was just showing how they are NOT similar.

 

However, "upset" has different definitions. Am I going to delete someone's log? No. Am I going to think less of the helper and the helpee? Yes (and that is my right). Just like everyone has a spectrum of moral ethics, everyone has a spectrum of reaction to moral ethics. I won't be archiving my caches and having them locked down, changing all of the coordinate data I can just because someone didn't find the cache the way I (as the cache owner) intended it to be found.

 

Besides: If a previous finder of one of my puzzle caches wants to help another cacher find my cache, why should I care? Each of them is responsible for his own entertainment. How much or how little fun they cheat themselves out of, and how they choose to interact between the two of them, is really none of my business
Just because someone else lowers their standards of ethics doesn't mean I should lower mine.
It’s not a "lower" standard. It’s just a different standard.

 

Each of us draws our individual ethical line in a different and unique place. You have the right – the duty – to decide what is best for you. That someone else chooses to draw their line in a different place, however, doesn’t automatically make theirs wrong, bad, evil or "lower." Just different.

Since I have the right to determine where my moral spectrum lines and where that ethical barrier exists, I do not have the right to choose and express my feelings about where someone else's ethical barrier exists in my opinion?

 

So I'll rephrase my statement: Just because someone else has different ethical standards, doesn't mean I should change mine. To take it to the extreme, the line of "everybody is Okey-Dokey if it doesn't affect me" would also accept that if my ethical standard is such as to think it's wrong to forge checks on a bank account, I should not worry if I see someone else forging checks because they have a "different ethical standard". I sure hope that's not acceptable to you.

 

If you don't want to ever help a fellow cacher with another cacher's puzzle, that's your choice. But it's not mine. I fail to see how either providing or accepting such help makes a victim out of the cache owner (or anyone else).
And since you have this failure to see this, and there is likely nothing I can say that would make you believe elsewise we will disagree no matter what either of us say.

 

Edited sentence for clarity

Edited by Markwell
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There are two main needs:

 

1) Verification of coordinates once you think you've solved the puzzle

 

2) Getting help solving the puzzle

 

For #1, I fail to see why some puzzle caches refuse to put coord verification on their pages. Most of those systems are designed to limit pounding away, and some puzzles can be slightly ambiguous. Also, sometimes you can solve the puzzle using method A, but be completely wrong.

 

For #2, I only ask for help as a last resort. And even then, I first ask for just a nudge to get me moving once I've been completely halted. While I don't do this often, only once have I received a totally rude response from the CO (consistent with his profile description), at which point I just ignored the cache - no biggie.

 

However most of the time with puzzle caches, the fun is in solving the puzzle on my own, so the vast majority of the time I just keep trying until I solve it.

 

So, do whatever you think makes sense, but as others have said - HAVE FUN!

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Nothing says that you can't ask for help... contact your local high school math teacher and have her make it a class project!

 

There's a puzzle near me that few can solve, SpiderFish, I have friends from my ham radio club working on that bugger, about twenty really bright people, and we still can't solve it!

 

"THE ANSWER YOU SEEK IS IN THE WEB"... Keep trying...

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As for the "I will give no one help attitude", as far as Im concerned this is supposed to be fun and adding stupid ettiquette to a sport were rules already are there is just lowsy. Its for fun. So why add ettiquette. If someone tells me at a table while eating that its good ettiquette to eat with a nice and fork and insists I do so, I might just be tempted to use my fingers just to annoy them. Its the stuff of revolutions is that. Thats how an awful lot of rebellions happen. If you dont want to help, then dont, but dont be the kill joy that sits in the corner telling everyone what you would or would not do. Your ideas and believes are yours, dont force them on others.

My attitude sits right along side leaving the cache as you found it, not revealing it to muggles, and trading kindly. Stuff like that. Yep, stupid etiquette.

 

When an owner places a cache he chooses how much information to give. The "for fun" anything goes attitude of providing coordinates for another's cache is on the same level IMHO as flagging the hiding spot. Ever thought the cache owner wants the seeker to go out and verify the coordinates by actually attempting to find the cache? Some owners think there are no guaranteed finds. There are mentally unobtainable caches just physically unobtainable caches.

 

If cache owner wants folks to contact him for verification, ask anyone the seeker chooses, use a coordinate checker, or actually get off their behind and attempt to find the cache to check their work, then that's is the way it is.

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There's a puzzle near me that few can solve, SpiderFish, I have friends from my ham radio club working on that bugger, about twenty really bright people, and we still can't solve it!

Noted the Morse up the lefthand edge, although it's terribly small. I'm surprised you looked for additional help. Ah.. that's right -- they have a no-code license now. Times do change...

 

I separate working with a fellow cacher on a puzzle, or jointly trying to find a cache, from asking a previous solver of a puzzle or finder of a cache for the information. Big difference there.

 

I look at "puzzle help" by prior solvers the same way I look at "lifelines" (see sig line, below). If I were assured of a find or a puzzle solution for every cache that hadn't been muggled, this would get boring in a BIG hurry. Half the point of this game is to pit your wits against the wits of the owner, the weather, muggles and whatever else comes between you and the find. Isn't it???

 

Asking the CO for information on a puzzle or physical cache isn't something I'd prefer to do, but I have no problem with anyone who does. And it doesn't bother me that some COs will provide hints and some won't.

 

This "lifeline" business, on the other hand...

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If you don't want to ever help a fellow cacher with another cacher's puzzle, that's your choice. But it's not mine. I fail to see how either providing or accepting such help makes a victim out of the cache owner (or anyone else).
And since you have this failure to see this, and there is likely nothing I can say that would make you believe elsewise we will disagree no matter what either of us say.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Yes we disagree, but I do not share your conclusion that you and I will likely never agree.

 

In fact, all you would need to do to have me agree with you is convince me that there is any real harm done to anyone when a cacher responds to a voluntary request for assistance and helps another cacher find a cache. Your forged check analogy unfortunately does not apply. Forgery removes a thing of value from another person against their will, and is therefore harmful; I see no such theft happening when one cacher provides help to another as described in this thread.

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When an owner places a cache he chooses how much information to give. The "for fun" anything goes attitude of providing coordinates for another's cache is on the same level IMHO as flagging the hiding spot.

In my humble opinion your humble opinion may be mistakenly equating two very different things:

 

Providing coordinates for another cacher’s cache (as described in this thread) doesn’t "spoil" anything. If the seeker asks for the coordinates (or for a hint, or mere verification), then he obviously wants to know, and is thus actively volunteering to learn more – therefore the information cannot be described as a "spoiler."

 

Flagging a hiding spot, on the other hand, not only spoils the cache hunt; it spoils it for everyone.

 

From the seeker’s perspective those are therefore two entirely different things. If you have some other reason for putting them "on the same level," I would be interested to hear what it is.

 

Ever thought the cache owner wants the seeker to go out and verify the coordinates by actually attempting to find the cache? Some owners think there are no guaranteed finds. There are mentally unobtainable caches just physically unobtainable caches.

 

If cache owner wants folks to contact him for verification, ask anyone the seeker chooses, use a coordinate checker, or actually get off their behind and attempt to find the cache to check their work, then that's is the way it is.

I take your point, but:

 

No matter what specific behavior a cache owner demands out of those who seek his cache, people will always find another way. Any cache owner who believes otherwise, and who is only happy when people are doing his cache in what he has decreed is the 'proper' way, is doomed to disappointment.

 

As a cache owner it is my philosophy that as long as a seeker has fun while being careful not to ruin anyone else’s fun, then that seeker is one of the good guys and my cache is a success.

 

Some owners obviously have a different philosophy. They seem to have a need to control how others cache. It’s not enough for them that seekers are having wholesome fun; the seekers must have fun the cache owner’s way, or else hit the highway.

 

That’s fine. Believe it or not, I respect that. I just don’t understand it.

 

Why do I respect it? Because there really isn’t anything wrong with that version of game play, in my opinion. Each cacher should feel free to play in whatever guideline-compliant way he chooses as long as he respects the rights of others.

 

Besides: In the free market of geocaching, the provider (cache owner), by making his policy clear and well known, is providing me, the consumer (cache seeker) with valuable information. For example: I now know never to seek any CoyoteRed-owned caches if I want to have a good time. You see, I don’t mind being stumped whenever I seek a difficult cache, but what I definitely would NOT enjoy is knowing that there will be no help, hint or coord verification available for me if I get stuck. As the consumer who votes with his feet, I will therefore happily ignore all your caches. Ignoring the caches of owners who want to control how I play still leaves me with plenty enough caches to seek that I will never run out of fun.

 

Nothing personal, of course. Just a consumer decision.

 

Obviously my free market analogy only goes so far: Because a cache is not a commercial business, that means any low or non-existent traffic that might result from such a draconian owner policy is not automatically a failure. If zero finds and major frustration for help-starved seekers is what a particular owner wants out of his cache, then, as you put it, "that's is the way it is." That is obviously fun for some, but it is not what I look for in this hobby, and I will not waste my limited free time seeking those caches.

 

I own several difficult caches. Many cachers have found my caches after having sought and received help from someone other than me. Why didn’t they come to me? I say: Who cares! They had fun while hunting and finding my cache, and they gladly sought the help of their own free will – I accept those two things as premises. They did not spoil the hunt for other seekers. Where, then, is the harm? Where is the breach of etiquette from which other forum participants believe I should have taken offense?

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