Cache at the Cemetery

[+Renegade Knight]

By all means please build a logical and defensable case

Oh, good grief!! This is a forum, not a court of law. People have every right to post opinions here. Give the guy a break will you?

Actually, I covered the whole "logical/defensible" thing in my edit of Post #88.

 

The people screaming the loudest with their insistence of logical arguments, it seems to me, are trying to say a logical argument is inherently correct simply because it's logical; and that simply isn't so.

I read it. You appear to have dropped the argument you were making about "not in my back yard because there are other back yards to play in" because it's not rational by itself and moved on to defending the cemetary itself on it's own merit which I can respect.

 

As for logical argument, what I was trying to infer is that some arguments are utter crap but always brought up because they are very good tools for obfsuscating the real issues (or lack of ability to defend a persons own feelings about something). The real issue is how we feel about cemetaries. It's not the "other back yard" theory. It's not 'For the children (though that did get brought up by someone else), it's not a "strawman" (often used to dismiss a real point) and so on.

 

As for logic itself, I find most people don't use it as much as they think becasue they don't understand that a value is different than logic. So they fail at logic when they are trying to use it to defend a value. A value just is. Logic applied to one set of values can lead to a differente outcome than logic applied to another set of values. Logic is a tool. Values are our core.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Renegade Knight

[+Okiebryan]

One of the first questions to be asked (as has been addressed in other threads), "Is it LEGAL to place a cache in that cemetary?" Several states and counties have laws against placing caches in cemetaries. If it is not legal, that ends the question.

 

Several? Really? Please educate me. I've only heard of one state that actually passed a law regarding this. If memory serves me correctly, I believe that was South Carolina. By the way, it's CEMETERIES.

 

Personally, I love these hides. Remote rural cemeteries are one good example of places I'd never have known about were it not for geocaching. Without restating all the reasons already posted, I'll just say that if you like em, find em. Hide em. If you don't, then don't hide or seek cemetery caches.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Okiebryan

[+Renegade Knight]

Pay me no mind.

These are just the ramblings of an old veteran who was born in the ''40's and grew up in the '50's and '60's.

People had respect for each other, their country, and our flag. I keep forgetting the huge generation gap and the downward spiral of morals today.

Cemeteries? Sure, why not? Have fun! Fireworks, picnics, four wheeling, who cares? They are dead right?

 

Did you know that many tribes buried their dead where they fell? That was their custom and practice. People then lived in locations attractive to people now. You live, work, recreate, and get stupid silly (unless you are 100% dour but that's no way to live) on those very lands.

 

The world is a cemetary and we must live our lives in it. Should we stop that life becasue we don't always know where someone fell in fear of offending the dead and perhaps ourselves by living life as it's intended?

 

You have to find your own answer, but that answer should include knowing you could be frolicking on someones grave, or where they fell.

 

As an aside:

When I stop at a certain location near the Bear River Massacre I can feel something in the air. It demands respect. There is a cache there. It didn't chase away the feeling. Neither did the letterbox, the highway sign and nearby house. I don't think the same thing exists where a more formal memorial was built. Maybe the dead, living, or both chose this spot for their own reasons. Maybe I chose this spot for my own reasons, but a little life in the area didn't take away the power.

[+Wogus!]

I read it. You appear to have dropped the argument you were making about "not in my back yard because there are other back yards to play in" because it's not rational by itself...

If I sounded as if I was attempting a NIMBY argument in my previous post, that's my fault I suppose. I was not attempting to put forth such an argument. Not caching in a cemetery because of how I feel about them and because there are so many other places one can 'cache without needing to impose on a cemetery go hand-in-hand in my own mind. All the pleading about doing so sounds to my ear like a "We do it because we can/there's no law against it so it's fine..." argument and as we all know, just because we can does not imply that we necessarily should. THAT argument just sort of ticks me right off in all honesty.

 

... and moved on to defending the cemetary itself on it's own merit which I can respect.

That's really the core of what I'm saying. I appreciate you acknowledging it even if it is at odds with your own point of view. I can respect that as well.

 

As for logical argument, what I was trying to infer is that some arguments are utter crap but always brought up because they are very good tools for obfuscating the real issues (or lack of ability to defend a persons own feelings about something). The real issue is how we feel about cemeteries. It's not the "other back yard" theory. It's not 'For the children (though that did get brought up by someone else), it's not a "strawman" (often used to dismiss a real point) and so on.

Roger that. Understood.

 

Logic is a tool. Values are our core.

Well said.

[+the pooks]

A large proportion of my geocaching experience so far has been more education than a game - introducing me to new places, showing me new things, telling me about something historical, geological etc. I have only done one cemetery cache and I found it very informative (it was called "Here comes the Alabama" in Afrikaans and told the story of an American ship coming to South Africa). I think geocaching does wonders education wise as it can educate adults and children alike in a fun interesting fashion. The fun/interesting is the drawcard or introduction, but the result is a person more aware of their surroundings - a win win situation. With this background, I think geocaches in cemeteries have a lot to offer. It would be the exception to find someone placing a cache in a cemetery that would be totally disrespectful. The drawback of laws or regulations (prohibiting caches in cemeteries for example) is that they cannot differentiate between the 99% of situations that result in a positive outcome, and the renegade 1% that result in a negative experience. For that reason I prefer the more open approach - lean more towards the minefield of less rules and more judgement than the straightjacket of the rulebook.

[+Hakali]

These are just the ramblings of an old veteran who was born in the ''40's and grew up in the '50's and '60's.

People had respect for each other, their country, and our flag.

 

Indeed. And at Flying High, as I was slowly strolling along the path, I saw gravestones from the 40's, 50's and 60's...many of them veterans such as yourself, with the old medallions to mark them as such. I found myself frequently stopping, reading the names, reading the medallions and which flight wing in WWII some of them flew in. I had a lot of respect for those folks...they fought to keep our country what it is today. It was touching and awing and quite solemn and respectful. Given its location, I really don't know just how many people still visit those graves...I saw some signs, but there were at least as many broken gravestones (one of which I righted).

 

I also got to meet and identify two cedar trees (caching spots), and discover that while they smell terrific they're also incredibly prickly. It gave me a chance to ponder what kind of memorial I'd like to put in there for my buddy. He's buried elsewhere, but the recently unveiled Oshkosh Pilot's Memorial would be an excellent memorial.

 

Where I live, anyways, the cachers tend to be late 30s and up, and none of us are the type to screech up in a car and sprint over graves, so your apprehensions are misfounded.

[Knight-Errant]

One of the first questions to be asked (as has been addressed in other threads), "Is it LEGAL to place a cache in that cemetary?" Several states and counties have laws against placing caches in cemetaries. If it is not legal, that ends the question.

 

Several? Really? Please educate me. I've only heard of one state that actually passed a law regarding this. If memory serves me correctly, I believe that was South Carolina. By the way, it's CEMETERIES.

 

Personally, I love these hides. Remote rural cemeteries are one good example of places I'd never have known about were it not for geocaching. Without restating all the reasons already posted, I'll just say that if you like em, find em. Hide em. If you don't, then don't hide or seek cemetery caches.

First of all, thanks for spelling correction--night shifts can strain the brain.

 

Second, while we do NOT claim to be any expert on the matter--especially since it is not a local issue for us--the following is just another specific example of such laws. In this case it is taken from the Tennessee State Code:

 

"No person shall willfully destroy, deface, or injure any monument, tomb, gravestone, or other structure placed in the cemetery, or any roadway, walk, fence or enclosure in or around the cemetery, or injure any tree, plant or shrub, or hunt or shoot, play at any game or amusement, or loiter for lascivious or lewd purposes in the cemetery, or interfere, by words or actions, with any funeral procession or any religious exercises."

 

Perhaps others will more expertise may be able to provide more examples and/or details.

[+Crafty Turtle]

Moving right along.....

 

Whatever rules you apply to cemeteries should also be applied to war memorials, places of worship, battlegrounds, and scenes of national disaster. These are all sacred sites to somebody.

 

IMHO, so long as you do nothing to offend those people using the site for its primary purpose, then by all means geocache, and learn something while you're there.

[+Mokzii]

Just my personal little opinion here but -

 

I enjoy cemetery caches. One of the things I like most is looking at the graves and paying respects in my own way. I'll wipe stray leaves or grass blades off of a headstone, straighten a fallen flag, and just acknowledge these peoples' lives.

Especially in old cemeteries, where it's unlikely that these people have any living relatives that visit. I may not be much, but I'm there - and I'm thinking of them.

 

I would never do a cache in a cemetery that I felt was disrespectful in any way. I've also never, in the many cemetery caches I've done, seen a disrespectful one.

 

Cemeteries aren't created for the purposes of placing people there... and then NEVER SEEING OR THINKING OF THEM AGAIN! GOSH! HIDE THEM FROM THE CHILDREN! haha There's nothing wrong with being in a cemetery, even if you're there to find a box containing a piece of paper.

 

When I end up in one, you're all more than welcome to come visit me.

[+Mr&MrsQuixote]

But don't people visit places like Arlington National Cemetery, Paris’ Pere Lachaise, all the cemeteries in New Orleans, and other such places for legitimate reasons other than "mourning their dearly recently departed"?

Good point.

 

+1

 

I walk through cemeteries frequently.

 

There is a small cemetery near my home. It's quiet, it's peaceful, and I go there when I need to think. I go there when I want to enjoy a visit. I have no loved ones buried there. I have yet to see someone there at all, much less mourning, and if I did, I wouldn't walk through.

 

So my take...

 

Is it ok?

 

Like a previous poster said, some of these people are long forgotten, and their names have not been uttered in over 200 years. Anytime I go to a cemetery I usually spend hours, looking, speaking their names, wondering about their life, etc. Any time I enter a cemetery it is with a somber heart, a quiet spirit and a small prayer.

 

With that said... in 100 years, when I'm dead and gone and my relatives are done mourning... I sure as heck hope thousands of people a year come and trample on my grave and read my gravestone, say my name, "remember" a person they never knew and have a good chuckle at whatever I have put on my gravestone. Whatever happens, I hope that people WILL come and read my gravestone, smile to themselves and amidst the death be able to say, "She truly lived."

 

Nobody likes to be forgotten. Should we tread lightly? Absolutely. Should we avoid? Isn't the respect in remembering, not avoiding?

Edited September 21, 2009 by Mr&MrsQuixote

[+bobandrobin]

I have something to add here, one of our few caches is on a fence around an African American cemetery in Jacksonville, Florida. The comments are few so far but positive.

One thing comes to my mind when I visit this place is that change comes and we learn. Sometimes it happens slowly and a gentle nudge from the past helps to see it.

I consider this place a lesson in history and hope many learn from it....especially the children.

[+tomturtle]

I have found many caches in cemeteries. As long as they are not placed on someone's tombstone, it shouldn't be a big deal. I have seen some interesting areas that I would not have visited otherwise thanks to these caches. Several times, I have had to come back later due to a funeral or muggles being near by, but usually there are few people there. I even met a guy who worked for the county cemetery commission who was inventorying graves and he started accidently finding caches and decided to start playing.

[+Vater_Araignee]

Is it ok to hide a cache at the cemetery?

With permission, yes.

Would you feel comfortable digging around the cemetery for cache?

Digging? Yes, but I like the smell, others may not.

Looking for a cache? Completely comfortable.

Is it really Kid Friendly?

It is just a memorial ground that people happen to be interred in. Not like making a kid walk through a partially used burial pit.

Why would you hide a cache at the cemetery?

Yup, but it seems like every time I find one where I'll be able to do regular maintenance, some body beats me to it.

Is it family friendly to hide a cache at the cemetery?

Is the family respectful enough to hunt it?

Edited September 21, 2009 by Vater_Araignee

[+TheChagnons]

Well, I can't add much more than has already said, but we just hid a cache in an older historic cemetery. We noted it was kid-friendly due to the terrain. I see nothing wrong with caching in a cemetery, but obviously this opinion differs for each individual. We don't sugar-coat anything for our children. If questions come up, we answer them the best way we feel we can. I don't find it morbid to cache in cemeteries at all....

[+Matt_B_Good]

I do go for cemetery caches. They make me feel a little bit uneasy but no big deal really. What else is the area used for? The people are dead and buried far underground. They don't notice. i think what your really getting at is this. Is it showing proper respect for the dead. Spirit Quest caches certainly are. They are never at tombstones and usually you don't have to step over anyone's grave to get to them. the objective is to heighten awareness, make you respect them more. After grabbing some Wisconsin Spirit Quest caches it gives me a new look at cemeteries. there are so many stories to be told from the gravestones. I'm not real crazy about the ones that lead you to a tombstone to figure out the WP by calculating a number in some poor guy's death. That is getting borderline disrespectful but not totally offensive. Like others said if you feel uncomfortable with them then don't do them but please don't be too hard on us that do.