Geocaching and personal injury insurance

[+Von-Horst]

Just a quick question;

 

Given that sometimes I'm out and about on the hills and occasionally tackle a more 'extreme' cache I was wondering if anyone has personal injury/sports insurance that covers geocaching?

 

If so, can you recomend any providers and give an idea of the costs.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[The Hearse]

Edited September 4, 2009 by The Hearse

[The Hearse]

I extended my cover only last week to effectively include any adventurous activity. Though it is a simple extension to an existing policy the additional cover is provided by three separate insurers; one covers accidents to me, another third party claims against me and the last for legal support should it become necessary (a life protection element didn’t need to be included in the change). The additional cost was not a lot at all but that may be because of the cover I already had in place. There is debate within some parts of the Geocaching community as to whether those that set caches that need specialist equipment have a duty of care and, without reopening this argument, I have ensured that I am protected against an accident involving any cache I may set. The warning I received is that the insurance position in the case of Geocaching is complex and uncertain. Some existing policies may have exclusion causes that may apply to those seeking more adventurous caches. I am unaware of anyone having an accident trying to claim against the person setting a cache and until the legal process is asked to decide in such cases, the position will remain unclear.

 

The costs vary widely depending on what cover you require and similalry which firm is best depends on exactly what you want.

Edited September 4, 2009 by The Hearse

[+keehotee]

I've had negotiated third party kite flying insurance in the past - and bike (mtb) insurance that also covered me for personal and third party injury and loss - but nowadays for caching I just rely on this one

[+purple_pineapple]

I am unaware of anyone having an accident trying to claim against the person setting a cache and until the legal process is asked to decide in such cases, the position will remain unclear.

 

unfortunately, this has indeed happened, and a well known and well respected caching team had many many months of stress and grief trying to defend the claim. Fortunately, IIRC, the claimant backed down at the last minute, so it was never tested in court, however this was a 'normal' cache along a footpath, not an adventurous one.

[+keehotee]

In order to make a claim against a hider for injuries sustained searching for their cache would you not have to be able to prove negligence or malicious intent on the part of the cache hider? Surely either of these would be nigh on impossible to prove in a voluntary activity??

It's not enough to have simply hurt yourself whilst looking - whether it's a nasty 5 terrain or a stroll-by 1 terrain cache.

[+purple_pineapple]

In order to make a claim against a hider for injuries sustained searching for their cache would you not have to be able to prove negligence or malicious intent on the part of the cache hider? Surely either of these would be nigh on impossible to prove in a voluntary activity??

It's not enough to have simply hurt yourself whilst looking - whether it's a nasty 5 terrain or a stroll-by 1 terrain cache.

 

almost... In order to make a claim you need prove nothing at all, not even that you have been injured. In order to win a claim, then the above is essentially true.

 

Unfortunately, there is nothing to stop anyone lodging claims against anyone else - and there is still expense, stress and aggravation involved in dealing with it, even if you are eventually proved not to be at fault. Not trying to be pedantic, but I do feel that it is an important point to make.

 

The moral being, if you are putting out a cache that has risks, make those risks abundantly clear on the cache page in order to prevent un'qualified' people attempting them. cache-U-Nutter's climbing caches are a good example.

[+keehotee]

In order to make a claim against a hider for injuries sustained searching for their cache would you not have to be able to prove negligence or malicious intent on the part of the cache hider? Surely either of these would be nigh on impossible to prove in a voluntary activity??

It's not enough to have simply hurt yourself whilst looking - whether it's a nasty 5 terrain or a stroll-by 1 terrain cache.

 

almost... In order to make a claim you need prove nothing at all, not even that you have been injured. In order to win a claim, then the above is essentially true.

 

Unfortunately, there is nothing to stop anyone lodging claims against anyone else - and there is still expense, stress and aggravation involved in dealing with it, even if you are eventually proved not to be at fault. Not trying to be pedantic, but I do feel that it is an important point to make.

 

The moral being, if you are putting out a cache that has risks, make those risks abundantly clear on the cache page in order to prevent un'qualified' people attempting them. cache-U-Nutter's climbing caches are a good example.

 

Is that not what the D/T ratings are for? If I rated a cache at 5 terrain, surely it's down to the hunter to know what 5 terrain could consist of before making a judgement on whether to attempt the cache or not?

 

Having said that - unless the hazards in looking for a cache are hidden, anybody looking is going to know if they are uncomfortable with a location when they get there.

 

As an analogy - look at this site

 

If I upload a route, and somebody gets hurt attempting it, would I be held liable? Or would the site be liable, for listing it in the first place? Would a solicitor even take the case?

[+purple_pineapple]

In order to make a claim against a hider for injuries sustained searching for their cache would you not have to be able to prove negligence or malicious intent on the part of the cache hider? Surely either of these would be nigh on impossible to prove in a voluntary activity??

It's not enough to have simply hurt yourself whilst looking - whether it's a nasty 5 terrain or a stroll-by 1 terrain cache.

 

almost... In order to make a claim you need prove nothing at all, not even that you have been injured. In order to win a claim, then the above is essentially true.

 

Unfortunately, there is nothing to stop anyone lodging claims against anyone else - and there is still expense, stress and aggravation involved in dealing with it, even if you are eventually proved not to be at fault. Not trying to be pedantic, but I do feel that it is an important point to make.

 

The moral being, if you are putting out a cache that has risks, make those risks abundantly clear on the cache page in order to prevent un'qualified' people attempting them. cache-U-Nutter's climbing caches are a good example.

 

Is that not what the D/T ratings are for? If I rated a cache at 5 terrain, surely it's down to the hunter to know what 5 terrain could consist of before making a judgement on whether to attempt the cache or not?

 

Having said that - unless the hazards in looking for a cache are hidden, anybody looking is going to know if they are uncomfortable with a location when they get there.

 

As an analogy - look at this site

 

If I upload a route, and somebody gets hurt attempting it, would I be held liable? Or would the site be liable, for listing it in the first place? Would a solicitor even take the case?

 

I agree about the terrains, however I personally don't think they are sufficient. For a start, they are subjective - so a 5* terrain in one person's eyes is not even close in another cacher's eyes.

 

A case in point is the night cache we did at Mega - a 5/5 cache. However, I have spent the last 3 months doing a series of 5/5 caches which can only be done by abseiling. However accoring to the ratings given, they are the same.

 

Unfortunately, attributes simply don't work, as they aren't actually included in the PQ files that most of us use!

 

Maybe there should be extra ratings, or some other system, but I prefer to simply put a bl**dy big warning on the cache page!

 

Obvously, no one in they're righ mind is going to attempt a cliff face cache without the right equipment anyway, but I'd rather not even take them to the area unless they know what to expect! Better safe than sorry...

 

As for solicitors... there's always someone out for a quick buck... unfortunately.

 

Anyway, slightly wondering OT, who wanted recommendations for personal injury, which may not be a bad idea if tackling extreme caches!

[+Bland by name]

I was looking under some rocks in Spain on holiday and found a snakeskin, kind of put me off. I do sometimes wonder about the sanity of grubbing around with my hand down a hole.

[+keehotee]

 

I agree about the terrains, however I personally don't think they are sufficient. For a start, they are subjective - so a 5* terrain in one person's eyes is not even close in another cacher's eyes.

 

A case in point is the night cache we did at Mega - a 5/5 cache. However, I have spent the last 3 months doing a series of 5/5 caches which can only be done by abseiling. However accoring to the ratings given, they are the same.

 

 

Well aside from peer pressure - which never works - maybe there should be another mechanism to adjust or properly reflect caches that have unrepresentative ratings? If people really only used the 5's to reflect specialist equipment/training, things would be so much easier...

[+sTeamTraen]

In order to make a claim against a hider for injuries sustained searching for their cache would you not have to be able to prove negligence or malicious intent on the part of the cache hider? Surely either of these would be nigh on impossible to prove in a voluntary activity??

It's not enough to have simply hurt yourself whilst looking - whether it's a nasty 5 terrain or a stroll-by 1 terrain cache.

Correct. Remember that Groundspeak is based in the most litigious country <Clarkson> in the world </Clarkson> and that their legal department is perfectly happy that the disclaimer on the cache page is sufficient protection.

 

I felt bad at the time for the cache placer being threatened with legal action by a moron, but while there's not much you can do to stop anyone suing you, there are actually far fewer successful frivolous suits than the meejah™ would have us believe. (Most of the more ludicrous cases you hear about from the US, etc, get overturned on appeal.) I wish that local government, school, hospital etc managers would make more effort to understand the difference between "we might get sued" and "we might get successfully sued". If we all worried all the time about all the nutters out there, we'd never get anywhere.

[The Hearse]

Be very careful. You would be ill advised to rely on the disclaimer as a defence in the UK and the rules for geocaching have not been tailored around UK and European law.

[+keehotee]

Be very careful. You would be ill advised to rely on the disclaimer as a defence in the UK and the rules for geocaching have not been tailored around UK and European law.

 

It wouldn't be used as a defence unless it became a criminal case - which would only be the case were there malicious intent involved. (ACME anvils suspended by fishing line above ammo boxes in the woods spring to mind)

 

Civil cases are judged on balance - even more so than in the US. Even if a suit was successful the balance of responsibility would still be considered, and the plaintiff could still walk away with nothing if the judge decided they had any responsibility for their own wellbeing.....

[+keehotee]

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...t&p=2532828

[+The Other Stu]

I was looking under some rocks in Spain on holiday and found a snakeskin, kind of put me off. I do sometimes wonder about the sanity of grubbing around with my hand down a hole.

 

You need to try 'caching in Australia.

 

This cache has an note about snakes (we found a dead kangaroo nearby).

 

I can't remember the cache, but there was another we didn't find - we didn't bother looking once we'd found a funnel-web spiders web at ground zero. Although we did find a nice trigpoint about 10 foot away!

[+scottpa100]

It appears to me that the conversation has gone off-topic and is covering litigation / legal issues rather than - what insurance do people have?

 

I purchased European travel insurance, Trek level of cover from the British Mountaineering Council because if I did injure myelf whilst out doing stuff I didn't want petty debates about getting a helicopter in whilst my arteries were squirting blood everywhere. Trek level covers for mountain hiking, swimming, yachting, kayaking and cycling. All stuff used for geocaching.

 

Reading what is covered, maybe Rock level of cover may be more prudent as that covers orienteering (isn't geocaching just an enhanced electronic version of orienteering?) yachting and running.

 

I chose the BMC as an insurance provider though because by its very nature its an outdoorsey organisation and I'm hopeful that they'll be more sympathetic to an outdoorsey injury.

[markandlynn]

We use the BMC and are members so if i kick a rock off a cliff and it hits someone im covered as well.

Very good packages and much praised squarely aimed at the outdoors person.

[+Von-Horst]

We use the BMC and are members so if i kick a rock off a cliff and it hits someone im covered as well.

Very good packages and much praised squarely aimed at the outdoors person.

 

I've had a look at their website and they list a whole range of specific activities that are covered but caching isn't - do you know if it counted as hill/fellwalking or have you had it included?

 

Mike

[+keehotee]

I've had a look at their website and they list a whole range of specific activities that are covered but caching isn't - do you know if it counted as hill/fellwalking or have you had it included?

 

 

Hopefully one of these -

hill walking, trekking, backpacking and scrambling.. Angling, Archery, Canoeing and Kayaking (inland and coastal waters only), Cycle Touring, Golf, Hot-air Ballooning, Jet-skiing*, Keep Fit, Lawn Tennis, Riding (excluding jumps), Rowing, Snorkelling, Squash, Swimming, Surfing, Table Tennis, Water Skiing (excluding jumps). American Football, Boxing, Cycle racing, Gliding*, Hang Gliding*, Martial Arts, Paragliding, Rafting, Sand and Land Yatching, Sports Parachuting, Powerkiting sports, Scuba Diving (limited to 40m depth), Water Skiing (including jumps), Wrestling, Winter Sports including Ice Skating and Dog Sledging. Caving and Pot-holing, Bungee Jumping.

- would cover most of whatever you were doing on the way to the cache, just as ordinary motor insurance would cover you for any driving element. I think the only thing specific to geocaching would be the opening of the ammo box/loc'n'loc/film pot to retrieve and sign the log - and I doubt anybody offers insurance for those particular activities..... (although I did get a nasty blood blister from an ammo box catch once )

Edited September 7, 2009 by keehotee

[markandlynn]

I've had a look at their website and they list a whole range of specific activities that are covered but caching isn't - do you know if it counted as hill/fellwalking or have you had it included?

 

 

Hopefully one of these -

hill walking, trekking, backpacking and scrambling.. Angling, Archery, Canoeing and Kayaking (inland and coastal waters only), Cycle Touring, Golf, Hot-air Ballooning, Jet-skiing*, Keep Fit, Lawn Tennis, Riding (excluding jumps), Rowing, Snorkelling, Squash, Swimming, Surfing, Table Tennis, Water Skiing (excluding jumps). American Football, Boxing, Cycle racing, Gliding*, Hang Gliding*, Martial Arts, Paragliding, Rafting, Sand and Land Yatching, Sports Parachuting, Powerkiting sports, Scuba Diving (limited to 40m depth), Water Skiing (including jumps), Wrestling, Winter Sports including Ice Skating and Dog Sledging. Caving and Pot-holing, Bungee Jumping.

- would cover most of whatever you were doing on the way to the cache, just as ordinary motor insurance would cover you for any driving element. I think the only thing specific to geocaching would be the opening of the ammo box/loc'n'loc/film pot to retrieve and sign the log - and I doubt anybody offers insurance for those particular activities..... (although I did get a nasty blood blister from an ammo box catch once )

What he said ^^^ , they are very friendly just ask.

[+Von-Horst]

...I did get a nasty blood blister from an ammo box catch once

 

Were there opening instructions on the ammo box? If not you could always sue....

 

Being serious for a moment, I'm not looking for liability insurance or medical cover per se, I'm more interested in something in case I do sunfink stoopid and end up unable to work for an extended period of time.

 

Mike

[+scottpa100]

Loss of income insurance would sound more appropriate. But I don't know what to recommend - it's not something I'm familiar with BUT one thing I would say is that check the conditions on what they pay out on. I will never forget what happened with my Mum and Dad and their supposed mortgage 'insurance' when my Dad lost his job some 13 years ago. A pretty crappy time. Maybe, if you were going to rely on it in dire straits, then perhaps the cheapest quote might not be the most effective policy for you.

 

Independent Financial Advisor time?

[+Beds Clangers]

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...t&p=2532828

 

What a year that was!!!

 

First time I have made this public but a year later I got another "claim". Thanks to Peter (Lacto') the "dim wit" who tried it on, got a short answer which ended with OFF!!! We do get some strange ones!!!!

 

Still have no insurance, have active caches, still married and she still thinks I'm round the twist!!!!

 

It's only a game OR to quote another cacher "just a hunt for a tubberware box"

 

Cheers

 

Nick

[+purple_pineapple]

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...t&p=2532828

 

What a year that was!!!

 

First time I have made this public but a year later I got another "claim". Thanks to Peter (Lacto') the "dim wit" who tried it on, got a short answer which ended with OFF!!! We do get some strange ones!!!!

 

Still have no insurance, have active caches, still married and she still thinks I'm round the twist!!!!

 

It's only a game OR to quote another cacher "just a hunt for a tubberware box"

 

Cheers

 

Nick

 

jeez Nick! What sort of caches you putting out?!

 

I think to people in your area its more than a game. its a money-earning exercise!

 

Glad the second one didn't amount to anything!

[+Cache U Nutter]

As someone who has placed the odd extreme or two, please consider the following :

The Groundspeak disclaimer, and cache description should make abundantly clear to all who attempt caches [irrespective of gradings] that there is a percieved risk in caching.

There is also a risk [sometimes considerable] in crossing a road where there is no warning of risk.

Do you cross the road or are you still waiting for a Zebra crossing to be built ?

If someone decides to attempt a grade 5 terrain cache then they should accept that the difficulty /risk is higher than a grade 1 terrain cache.

Further, if the cache attributes further indicate a risk / is a member only cache / has specific mention in the notes of any potential dangers then the geocacher attempting the challenging cache should be in no doubt.

As far as insurance is concerned - many insurance companies refer to the use of specialist equipment [look at the small print]

obviously if you are doing a cache that requires the use of a rope then this is specialist equipment and if you kill yourself then your life insurance payout to your loved ones is down to you and whether or not you have declared your activity.

This is the cachers descision not the cache owners !!!

I go mountaineering abroad annually but am not insured and this is at my own risk [i pay for rescue / loss of life cover if I injure / kill myself]

In the UK rescue and NHS treatment is free [at the moment] so the the risk of financial loss is restricted.

It is your responsibility -Please read the cache notes etc if you are at all in doubt and cache within your abilities.

If you want to join the Nanny State then this website may assist : http://www.labour.org.uk/

[+Cache U Nutter]

As someone who has placed the odd extreme or two, please consider the following :

The Groundspeak disclaimer, and cache description should make abundantly clear to all who attempt caches [irrespective of gradings] that there is a percieved risk in caching.

There is also a risk [sometimes considerable] in crossing a road where there is no warning of risk.

Do you cross the road or are you still waiting for a Zebra crossing to be built ?

If someone decides to attempt a grade 5 terrain cache then they should accept that the difficulty /risk is higher than a grade 1 terrain cache.

Further, if the cache attributes further indicate a risk / is a member only cache / has specific mention in the notes of any potential dangers then the geocacher attempting the challenging cache should be in no doubt.

As far as insurance is concerned - many insurance companies refer to the use of specialist equipment [look at the small print]

obviously if you are doing a cache that requires the use of a rope then this is specialist equipment and if you kill yourself then your life insurance payout to your loved ones is down to you and whether or not you have declared your activity.

This is the cachers descision not the cache owners !!!

I go mountaineering abroad annually but am not insured and this is at my own risk [i pay for rescue / loss of life cover if I injure / kill myself]

In the UK rescue and NHS treatment is free [at the moment] so the the risk of financial loss is restricted.

It is your responsibility -Please read the cache notes etc if you are at all in doubt and cache within your abilities.

If you want to join the Nanny State then this website may assist : http://www.labour.org.uk/

 

Sorry, as Mark and Lynne have suggested, The BMC [british Mountaineering Council] Have a very good scheme which will cover you for extreme activities [ but look at the policy for the detail]

Cost : not much in the UK [£30 p.a approx ?]

Remember : You have to take responsibility for your own actions - this includes Geocaching activities.