TBs and Coins that are not in the Cache but listed

[+Kuhwaidi]

This is what I wrote to Groundspeak:

Hello,

 

I want to propose an extension to the handling of trackable items.

 

Very often there are TBs or Coins listed to be in a cache but aren´t there.

As you know, there can be multiple reasons for this:

 

Someone took it out and did not log that

The cache was muggled

...

 

What I would like is an option for the cache-owner to set trackable items as "not in the cache".

This must not have the same effect as if an owner sets his tb as "missing" but it should remove

the TB from the cache listing.

 

So cachers that visit the cache are not disappointed that they did not find the TB or Coin there anticipated to be there.

 

You may say that a cache owner can mail to the TB owner to set the TB as missing,

but I found out that many TB-Owners do not show any reaction of "Did not discover" -mails.

 

What do you think about this?

 

Greetings from Germany

and

Cache on!

 

and this is the answer:

 

Hi,

 

Thank you for your feedback. I’d be happy to pass this suggestion along to our development team for you. Since this is a concept that affects all geocachers, I am going to suggest that you also post this in the Geocaching.com Web site forum. You can reach this forum at this link http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showforum=8 . Our development team keeps a close eye on that forum as well.

 

Happy caching!

 

So what do You think about such a feature?

 

Kuhwaidi

[+BlueDeuce]

What I would like is an option for the cache-owner to set trackable items as "not in the cache".

This must not have the same effect as if an owner sets his tb as "missing" but it should remove

the TB from the cache listing.

 

So cachers that visit the cache are not disappointed that they did not find the TB or Coin there anticipated to be there.

 

You may say that a cache owner can mail to the TB owner to set the TB as missing,

but I found out that many TB-Owners do not show any reaction of "Did not discover" -mails.

 

First of all you are assuming that cache owners are going to maintain the bug listings in their caches.

 

Second, I'm not quite sure how this would be different from simply removing a bug from a cache page by marking it as missing.

 

Edit: reading this through a few times, do you know that the cache owner can mark a bug as missing when it's sitting in his cache?

Edited August 26, 2009 by BlueDeuce

[+McBack]

I don't see that as a problem. More that if my coin has disappeared from a cache, and a lot of cachers has found the cache, but doesn't mail it to the coin owner.

 

I had a coin in a cache that people visited for months. When they logged the cache they could log with "I didn't see the coin", but I didn't have the cache on my list so I didn't get it.

 

I understand if a couple of days has gone, and a coin is missing. Everyone isn't logging their visits on the web at once, that's not the problem. And it's hard to know when the right moment is to notify the coin owner. But somehow I like to send a message too much than too less. Then it's up to the coin owner to decide what to do.

 

Usually I also log a note on the coins own page, then others know that the owner is notified that something is missing.

 

I don't know if it's a bad idea, but noone has complained so far.

[+Lil Devil]

What I would like is an option for the cache-owner to set trackable items as "not in the cache".

This must not have the same effect as if an owner sets his tb as "missing" but it should remove

the TB from the cache listing.

Both the cache owner and the bug owner can currently mark a bug as "missing." How is "not in the cache" any different?

[+E = Mc2]

Drat. Double post.

Edited August 26, 2009 by E = Mc2

[+E = Mc2]

What I would like is an option for the cache-owner to set trackable items as "not in the cache".

This must not have the same effect as if an owner sets his tb as "missing" but it should remove

the TB from the cache listing.

Both the cache owner and the bug owner can currently mark a bug as "missing." How is "not in the cache" any different?

My thoughts prezactly. I'm guessing the OP means that the current 'missing' log to them means KIA and that they want a log that means MIA.

 

This post brought to you by abbr.

[+Shilo]

I think we already have what the OP said, it is just worded differently than they want. It does the same thing.

 

I'd like to see a step added that the trackable owner gets an e-mail when a cache owner marks a trackable as missing. I rarely get e-mails from cachers that a trackable is missing so eventually the cache owner marks it as such and I never know.

[+Kuhwaidi]

Thank you for your replys.

I did not know that I -as a cache owner- am able to mark a TB as "missing".

 

So you are right, there is no direct need for a different feature.

Can anyone tell me what happens to the TB after it is marked as missing?

who is able to reactivate it if it shows up in another cache later?

 

Greetings

Kuhwaidi

[+KJcachers]

Thank you for your replys.

I did not know that I -as a cache owner- am able to mark a TB as "missing".

 

So you are right, there is no direct need for a different feature.

Can anyone tell me what happens to the TB after it is marked as missing?

who is able to reactivate it if it shows up in another cache later?

 

Greetings

Kuhwaidi

 

missing is just like any other location. if the bug shows up again it can be grabbed or retrieved and moved on like normal.

[+The Blorenges]

Thank you for your replys.

I did not know that I -as a cache owner- am able to mark a TB as "missing".

 

So you are right, there is no direct need for a different feature.

Can anyone tell me what happens to the TB after it is marked as missing?

who is able to reactivate it if it shows up in another cache later?

 

Greetings

Kuhwaidi

 

When any trackable is marked as "Missing" it then shows as being in "Unknown location".

 

If at some later date it is found somewhere by another cacher they can use the tracking number on the item to "Grab it from somewhere else" and so bring it back into play once more.

 

MrsB

[+liquidswar]

I also started a new topic regarding this same issue. http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=230214

 

My big suggestion is to create a shortcut for people to log their TBs as grabbed. You know how you are easily able to drop a TB into a cache from your inventory? I'm thinking they should have a similar window for grabbing a TB from a cache inventory along with typing in the serial number. I think half the reason why these TB go missing so often is either because people don't know how to claim a TB, or they forget they grabbed one. If it's listed right in front of them when they go to log the cache find, I think we will see many less TB missing.

 

My second suggestion is to allow normal cachers to list a TB as missing instead of just the TB or cache owners. But, with the added security that once a person reports a TB missing, then the person that grabbed it has 14-days to log that they have it before the TB is officially locationless. However, while in this 14-day pending period, the TB can be greyed or striked out in the inventory list and not counted among the total number listed. That way people know really how many TBs are in the cache.

 

I once went to a cache with 16 trackables listed in the inventory, and when I arrived, not a single one of them could be found. I have been in search for another trackable since then (3 weeks) and cache after cache with a reported inventory, I have been greatly disappointed.

[+Shilo]

I also started a new topic regarding this same issue. http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=230214

 

My big suggestion is to create a shortcut for people to log their TBs as grabbed. You know how you are easily able to drop a TB into a cache from your inventory? I'm thinking they should have a similar window for grabbing a TB from a cache inventory along with typing in the serial number. I think half the reason why these TB go missing so often is either because people don't know how to claim a TB, or they forget they grabbed one. If it's listed right in front of them when they go to log the cache find, I think we will see many less TB missing.

 

My second suggestion is to allow normal cachers to list a TB as missing instead of just the TB or cache owners. But, with the added security that once a person reports a TB missing, then the person that grabbed it has 14-days to log that they have it before the TB is officially locationless. However, while in this 14-day pending period, the TB can be greyed or striked out in the inventory list and not counted among the total number listed. That way people know really how many TBs are in the cache.

 

I once went to a cache with 16 trackables listed in the inventory, and when I arrived, not a single one of them could be found. I have been in search for another trackable since then (3 weeks) and cache after cache with a reported inventory, I have been greatly disappointed.

 

Although I feel your pain about going to caches with listed trackables, I don't think any of your suggestions are feasible.

Your first one, if I read it properly, is what we do now by going to the trackable page and grabbing the trackable while using the tracking number already. It's pretty much a short process now.

And your 2nd suggestion is pretty confusing to a newbie who you are trying to simplify the process to in the first place. I personally don't what just anybody marking my trackables missing. A responsible cache owner will do this if the logs specify trackables aren't there or asked to do so. Back to your last comment about the 16 missing trackables, did you notify the owners of the trackables(or cache owner) that you didn't see them in the cache? Most owners will mark them as missing if they are contacted. They don't know otherwise unless someone tells them.

It all boils down to responsibility. There aren't enough laws, rules or features to replace it. It's unfortunate cache owners, trackable owners and even cachers themselves aren't responsible in keeping all this current. But there is more important things than our little hobby sometimes in life that makes this process difficult.

[+liquidswar]

Although I feel your pain about going to caches with listed trackables, I don't think any of your suggestions are feasible.

Your first one, if I read it properly, is what we do now by going to the trackable page and grabbing the trackable while using the tracking number already. It's pretty much a short process now.

And your 2nd suggestion is pretty confusing to a newbie who you are trying to simplify the process to in the first place. I personally don't what just anybody marking my trackables missing. A responsible cache owner will do this if the logs specify trackables aren't there or asked to do so. Back to your last comment about the 16 missing trackables, did you notify the owners of the trackables(or cache owner) that you didn't see them in the cache? Most owners will mark them as missing if they are contacted. They don't know otherwise unless someone tells them.

It all boils down to responsibility. There aren't enough laws, rules or features to replace it. It's unfortunate cache owners, trackable owners and even cachers themselves aren't responsible in keeping all this current. But there is more important things than our little hobby sometimes in life that makes this process difficult.

 

Actually, with the first one, I'm suggesting a shortcut right on the page where you log the found cache. Very similar to how you drop a trackable into a cache. In the current way, we have to separately find the trackable page to log it found. I'm suggesting it become even more streamlined, and of course, you have to write the serial number to claim it found, or it would be too easy for anyone to claim they grabbed it.

 

I made the 2nd suggestion because I do log a note in all the trackables' pages that were not found but still listed in the inventory. I note that "the TB is no longer there - hopefully will turn up again soon." And I see that other cachers do the same for others that have been sitting in there longer. Since we are already helping to keep track of these missing TBs by creating a note, I'm suggesting add a new type of log to report it missing. And since we are not the TB or cache owner, then it stays in pending mode for 14-days to allow whomever might picked it up to log it. I came up with 14-days because geocaching etiquette guidelines say this is how soon you should try to move a bug, or else notify the owner. After the 14-day "probation" period, then the trackable will automatically be removed from inventory and listed as being in an unknown location. That way, we don't have to depend so much on TB and cache owners to have to keep track of these things for us, when we're already doing it ourselves.

[+mfamilee]

Thank you for your replys.

I did not know that I -as a cache owner- am able to mark a TB as "missing".

Yep, if you are the owner of the cache where the trackable is 'missing'.

Just clarifying it can not be any cache owner... it must be a cache you own.

[+Shilo]

Although I feel your pain about going to caches with listed trackables, I don't think any of your suggestions are feasible.

Your first one, if I read it properly, is what we do now by going to the trackable page and grabbing the trackable while using the tracking number already. It's pretty much a short process now.

And your 2nd suggestion is pretty confusing to a newbie who you are trying to simplify the process to in the first place. I personally don't what just anybody marking my trackables missing. A responsible cache owner will do this if the logs specify trackables aren't there or asked to do so. Back to your last comment about the 16 missing trackables, did you notify the owners of the trackables(or cache owner) that you didn't see them in the cache? Most owners will mark them as missing if they are contacted. They don't know otherwise unless someone tells them.

It all boils down to responsibility. There aren't enough laws, rules or features to replace it. It's unfortunate cache owners, trackable owners and even cachers themselves aren't responsible in keeping all this current. But there is more important things than our little hobby sometimes in life that makes this process difficult.

 

Actually, with the first one, I'm suggesting a shortcut right on the page where you log the found cache. Very similar to how you drop a trackable into a cache. In the current way, we have to separately find the trackable page to log it found. I'm suggesting it become even more streamlined, and of course, you have to write the serial number to claim it found, or it would be too easy for anyone to claim they grabbed it.

 

I made the 2nd suggestion because I do log a note in all the trackables' pages that were not found but still listed in the inventory. I note that "the TB is no longer there - hopefully will turn up again soon." And I see that other cachers do the same for others that have been sitting in there longer. Since we are already helping to keep track of these missing TBs by creating a note, I'm suggesting add a new type of log to report it missing. And since we are not the TB or cache owner, then it stays in pending mode for 14-days to allow whomever might picked it up to log it. I came up with 14-days because geocaching etiquette guidelines say this is how soon you should try to move a bug, or else notify the owner. After the 14-day "probation" period, then the trackable will automatically be removed from inventory and listed as being in an unknown location. That way, we don't have to depend so much on TB and cache owners to have to keep track of these things for us, when we're already doing it ourselves.

 

I understand your 2nd suggestion now. Sounds like a good idea.

[AZcachemeister]

In the current way, we have to separately find the trackable page to log it found.

 

 

Every cache I visit has the trackable inventory listed right on the page (isn't that part of your issue/complaint?), and I just click on the link to visit the trackable's page...how easy is that?

 

I do like the idea of a 'Needs Maintenance' type log that could bring the MIA status of the trackable to someone's attention...most especially the traveler's owner and the owner of the cache they are supposedly in.

The folks at Groundspeak do not seem to be big on automated processes for things like this, though.

[+Kuhwaidi]

Thank you for your replys.

I did not know that I -as a cache owner- am able to mark a TB as "missing".

Yep, if you are the owner of the cache where the trackable is 'missing'.

Just clarifying it can not be any cache owner... it must be a cache you own.

 

That is my wish, that I can keep my cache listings clean

 

For trackables I do not find in other caches I normally log a "did not find" in "CACHENAME"

but as I found out, many owners seem to take no notice of that.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Kuhwaidi

[+power69]

What I would like is an option for the cache-owner to set trackable items as "not in the cache".

This must not have the same effect as if an owner sets his tb as "missing" but it should remove

the TB from the cache listing.

 

So cachers that visit the cache are not disappointed that they did not find the TB or Coin there anticipated to be there.

 

You may say that a cache owner can mail to the TB owner to set the TB as missing,

but I found out that many TB-Owners do not show any reaction of "Did not discover" -mails.

 

First of all you are assuming that cache owners are going to maintain the bug listings in their caches.

If someone notes a missing traveler in one of my caches, i'll give it like 6 weeks then mark it missing.

I won't let it languish for years there.

[+power69]

How about an ignore for travelers like there are for caches.

there are LOTS of caches in arizona that have the stack of coins icons yet the cache is void of any travelers.

[+TEAM HARTSOCK]

Missing TBs and coins do not come from a burdensome system of logging; they come from carelessness and laziness along with the good old, "I like this one maybe I will keep it" attitude. It will happen no matter how many shortcuts or improvements are made to the system. As a cache owner and TB owner, I want my bugs to keep moving and want my caches to reflect what is in them; so I put the time and effort into making sure they are maintained and cared for, but there is only so much you can do.

[+dakin55]

I have been thinking on this issue from both sides of the fence and I do see a growing problem with wrong inventories. I would think that the automation of a bug missing feature would cause about as much problems as it solves, To add a trackable not discovered with a time delay to move it to missing could and should be available to any person willing to take the time to help clear up the inventory. When I see a list of items that should be available in a cache, and then take the time to look thru the logs to see when the last time it was spotted, and even logged that it was taken out of the cache but not on the tracking page. I would take the time to go and change the status of the inventory to not discovered and the automation should then "click in" and say 21days( just a suggestion) it automaticaly sends a message to the cache owner notifying them of the maintence required for their cache. As the real problem is maintenance of the inventory in a cache. A large button on the log screen to take newer cahers to a the TB page would and should also help. As newer cachers just log the cache find and not the TB Find why is this a 2 step proccess, Adding a submit log entry and manage trackable button at bottom of the log page should also help!

[+Markwell]

The only thing I've requested for a LONG time is that if a travel bug is marked as missing by a cache owner, I wish it would generate a log on the TB and give the owner an e-mail.

[+Bear and Ragged]

The only thing I've requested for a LONG time is that if a travel bug is marked as missing by a cache owner, I wish it would generate a log on the TB and give the owner an e-mail.

Or, the cache is Archived, with TB's still listed.

A cache one of my TB's was in was archived, I only found out when looking to see if the cache had been visited recently, to see why the TB wasn't moving...

[OpinioNate]

The only thing I've requested for a LONG time is that if a travel bug is marked as missing by a cache owner, I wish it would generate a log on the TB and give the owner an e-mail.

Or, the cache is Archived, with TB's still listed.

A cache one of my TB's was in was archived, I only found out when looking to see if the cache had been visited recently, to see why the TB wasn't moving...

 

Both of these requests are in the backlog, and Bear and Ragged's is in the current sprint, so hopefully that functionality will exist in about a week. Work has not begun on it, however, so I can't promise it won't get pushed to next sprint.

[+Bear and Ragged]

Nice one!

[OpinioNate]

Nice one!

 

Our dev Paul is out-doing himself on this one.

 

The following actions will cause a log to be posted to the trackables page:

 

Marked Missing

Cache is archived

Cache is unarchived

Trackable moved to last location

[+Shilo]

Nice one!

 

Our dev Paul is out-doing himself on this one.

 

The following actions will cause a log to be posted to the trackables page:

 

Marked Missing

Cache is archived

Cache is unarchived

Trackable moved to last location

 

Awesome Nate. Thanks to you and Paul for this...

[+Bear and Ragged]

Nice one!

 

Our dev Paul is out-doing himself on this one.

 

The following actions will cause a log to be posted to the trackables page:

 

Marked Missing

Cache is archived

Cache is unarchived

Trackable moved to last location

 

Awesome Nate. Thanks to you and Paul for this...

 

Thanks guys!

Just hope my TB's (and others TB's!) don't get to use this feature too often!

[+Eartha]

I really, really, really want to thank the Groundspeak Technical Lackeys for installing the automated message when marking a Trackable item missing. I got to try it out today when I received a couple of emails from cachers reporting a whole list of missing Trackables at once. I was marking them missing as fast as fast could be! I was using two windows at a time, click, click, clickety click, click and done! No more copy and paste a log note, no more re-copying and re-pasting the log note, the TB #, the Cache page name... What a joy! Thanks guys. You've made this volunteer's job a whole lot simpler. Now I have time to do more for this community. Or for geocaching!

Yay!