Help me decide which GPS to buy-

[+TotemLake]

OK, that has to be real comforting.

That is, TL and I posting at the concurrently and saying the same things.

GMTA

[+fegan]

I know the other electronic compass enabled units show true orientation with and without shape files loaded, they really lack when considering what an aerial can provide in terms of additional detail of your surroundings.

 

My problem is I cover such a large area that I could never have aerial support covering the area for which I have geocaches loaded (Jacksonville South to Vero Beach and Daytona Beach West to Lakeland).

 

I use my iPhone for aerial support if and when I need it (assuming I have cell coverage...which we lack in the middle of the Ocala National Forest).

[+Rockin Roddy]

I know the other electronic compass enabled units show true orientation with and without shape files loaded, they really lack when considering what an aerial can provide in terms of additional detail of your surroundings.

 

My problem is I cover such a large area that I could never have aerial support covering the area for which I have geocaches loaded (Jacksonville South to Vero Beach and Daytona Beach West to Lakeland).

 

I use my iPhone for aerial support if and when I need it (assuming I have cell coverage...which we lack in the middle of the Ocala National Forest).

 

Actually, you could do this easily with sections loaded on different cards, simply loading a new card when needed!

[+TotemLake]

I know the other electronic compass enabled units show true orientation with and without shape files loaded, they really lack when considering what an aerial can provide in terms of additional detail of your surroundings.

 

My problem is I cover such a large area that I could never have aerial support covering the area for which I have geocaches loaded (Jacksonville South to Vero Beach and Daytona Beach West to Lakeland).

 

I use my iPhone for aerial support if and when I need it (assuming I have cell coverage...which we lack in the middle of the Ocala National Forest).

 

Actually, you could do this easily with sections loaded on different cards, simply loading a new card when needed!

This is correct. It takes a little (general term folks) up front time to prep your aerial cuts, but once in place, it's mere minutes to load to a card or as RR suggested, have it ready on a card for each area you frequently travel to.

[+user13371]

...My problem is I cover such a large area that I could never have aerial support covering the area for which I have geocaches loaded (Jacksonville South to Vero Beach and Daytona Beach West to Lakeland).

I've only used DeLorme's aerial maps for "spot coverage" of areas instead of trying to cover my whole range. I lack the patience and dedication that some folks have had for downloading entire states And when I'm within cellphone range I find Google Maps on the Phone to be generally more up to data and useful -- BUT...

 

I use my iPhone for aerial support if and when I need it (assuming I have cell coverage...which we lack in the middle of the Ocala National Forest).

Fine if you are in range, but I haven't found an acceptable source of aerial imagery to load for offline use. Topo quads are almost as helpful for my purpose though and these are easily loaded on the iPhone for "offline" use:

 

http://appshopper.com/navigation/topo-maps

 

I've got quads loaded to cover most of the places I roam and I don't worry about cellphone coverage.

Edited August 22, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+Rockin Roddy]

...My problem is I cover such a large area that I could never have aerial support covering the area for which I have geocaches loaded (Jacksonville South to Vero Beach and Daytona Beach West to Lakeland).

I've only used DeLorme's aerial maps for "spot coverage" of areas instead of trying to cover my whole range. I lack the patience and dedication that some folks have had for downloading entire states And when I'm within cellphone range I find Google Maps on the Phone to be generally more up to data and useful -- BUT...

 

I use my iPhone for aerial support if and when I need it (assuming I have cell coverage...which we lack in the middle of the Ocala National Forest).

Fine if you are in range. I haven't found an acceptable source of aerial imagery that i can load for offline use. Topo quads are almost as helpful for my purpose though and these are easily loaded on the iPhone for "offline" use:

 

http://appshopper.com/navigation/topo-maps

 

I've got quads loaded to cover most of the places I roam and I don't worry about cellphone coverage.

 

Spot coverage works as well, good call! Downloading large areas takes a bit of time, but can be done simple enough if one were to plan and budget the time (for instance, choose sections and get them loading overnight so they are ready for the next day). May not be the very best if you cover multiple states and such, but this too could be done...with a lot of patience and time!

 

It took me several days to download the entire state of MI, but the best part is, I get to keep that imagery so I need only do this one time and can use it as much or as little as I want!

Edited August 22, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+user13371]

...took me several days to download the entire state of MI,

I forget and I'm too lazy to search did you download aerial imagery, USGS topo quads, or both?

...but the best part is, I get to keep that imagery so I need only do this one time and can use it as much or as little as I want!

Mm, what if they update the imagery? Have you had to re-cut any of the sections since you uograded from Topo 7 to 8? Edited August 22, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+Rockin Roddy]

...took me several days to download the entire state of MI,

I forget and I'm too lazy to search did you download aerial imagery, USGS topo quads, or both?

...but the best part is, I get to keep that imagery so I need only do this one time and can use it as much or as little as I want!

Mm, what if they update the imagery? Have you had to re-cut any of the sections since you uograded from Topo 7 to 8?

 

Updated imagery would be at your preference, but is doable AFAIK. No, I was just toying with the aerial and readying a large section to be loaded to my massive onboard memory (gotta love that in the se), it's there and ready when wanted! I can't remember if I loaded all of the topo too or not, I know I have a good amount though!

Edited August 22, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+TotemLake]

...took me several days to download the entire state of MI,

I forget and I'm too lazy to search did you download aerial imagery, USGS topo quads, or both?

...but the best part is, I get to keep that imagery so I need only do this one time and can use it as much or as little as I want!

Mm, what if they update the imagery? Have you had to re-cut any of the sections since you uograded from Topo 7 to 8?

I had thought about the imagery getting updated. I figure once I have the state downloaded, minor updates will be small potatoes.

 

As for recutting when going from T7 to T8, nope. It worked as designed.

 

For me, I'm almost finished downloading Washington State. I'm not as dedicated a downloader as some peers are, but I want to have the aerials completed before my subscription is up. I'm also working on all the hi-res imagery available to me in the state as well. A lot of my time was saved with the TopoQuads v2.0 imagery I already had on DVD.

 

I'm thinking I'm going to have to buy a new disk and move all the data to that.

[+fegan]

...took me several days to download the entire state of MI,

I forget and I'm too lazy to search did you download aerial imagery, USGS topo quads, or both?

 

I already have topo data for the entire state (both 100k and 24k) so I don't need more of that.

 

Just how much space does this aerial data consume? The space has always been my concern. I suppose swapping cards is an option...but to me that's just one more thing to misplace (and I'm also a photographer dealing with many memory cards when I spend a day shooting...as organized as I try to be I know one day I'm going to misplace that one card with the most important shot of the day). I'm not sure spot data will work for me as we often make last minute changes to our plans where to go geocaching depending on time and weather...so basically I would need spot data for everything. That's why I keep such a large off-line database of geocaches, updated weekly, ready to go on a moments notice.

[+Rockin Roddy]

...took me several days to download the entire state of MI,

I forget and I'm too lazy to search did you download aerial imagery, USGS topo quads, or both?

 

I already have topo data for the entire state (both 100k and 24k) so I don't need more of that.

 

Just how much space does this aerial data consume? The space has always been my concern. I suppose swapping cards is an option...but to me that's just one more thing to misplace (and I'm also a photographer dealing with many memory cards when I spend a day shooting...as organized as I try to be I know one day I'm going to misplace that one card with the most important shot of the day). I'm not sure spot data will work for me as we often make last minute changes to our plans where to go geocaching depending on time and weather...so basically I would need spot data for everything. That's why I keep such a large off-line database of geocaches, updated weekly, ready to go on a moments notice.

 

Once you take the time to download all the imagery you think you'll need, it's just a matter of putting that imagery on a card. The time it takes to load a card would depend fully on the amount of imagery you are loading of course! So really, one card loaded and then reloaded whenever needed would work as well...if you can plan ahead a bit to make it work!

[+fegan]

I want to have the aerials completed before my subscription is up.

I'm also working on all the hi-res imagery available to me in the state as well.

 

So this aerial data requires some kind of subscription to obtain? I hate forking out more money (like Garmin hit me for City Navigator when I got my Colorado...I figured since my $200 Nuvi had that data that the Colorado would too...wrong!).

 

And there is both low-res and hi-res imagery? Well, I would want the hi-res data (who wouldn't)...so how much storage would that require to cover say 100 miles x 100 miles. Since I've got access to it via my iPhone it's never been an issue not having it on my GPS. Heck, even though I'm paperless I don't always read the description, hint, or logs, when I'm looking for a geocache. Just tell me the size of the container and the D/T and I'm off. However, when I do need to consult the info I want it all...hence the hi-res aerial data.

 

Not that I'm planning to purchase a PN-40 any time soon...I'm perfectly content with my Colorado 400t. But it's nice to be able to speak intelligently when folks ask questions on the trail or at events.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I want to have the aerials completed before my subscription is up.

I'm also working on all the hi-res imagery available to me in the state as well.

 

So this aerial data requires some kind of subscription to obtain? I hate forking out more money (like Garmin hit me for City Navigator when I got my Colorado...I figured since my $200 Nuvi had that data that the Colorado would too...wrong!).

 

And there is both low-res and hi-res imagery? Well, I would want the hi-res data (who wouldn't)...so how much storage would that require to cover say 100 miles x 100 miles. Since I've got access to it via my iPhone it's never been an issue not having it on my GPS. Heck, even though I'm paperless I don't always read the description, hint, or logs, when I'm looking for a geocache. Just tell me the size of the container and the D/T and I'm off. However, when I do need to consult the info I want it all...hence the hi-res aerial data.

 

Not that I'm planning to purchase a PN-40 any time soon...I'm perfectly content with my Colorado 400t. But it's nice to be able to speak intelligently when folks ask questions on the trail or at events.

 

There is color aerial (and B&W) and there's hi-res city aerial which only covers certain larger cities such as Detroit (near me) or Seattle or such. I've not loaded this so I have no idea. However, I might just try it to see...

[+user13371]

And there is both low-res and hi-res imagery? ...Since I've got access to it via my iPhone it's never been an issue not having it on my GPS...

As you do have an iPhone, I'd say it's probably not worth the time and effort to download the hi-res aerial imagery.

 

Within the urban areas I spot checked DeLorme's imagery is neither as high quality nor as up to date as what you'll see in Google maps on your iPhone (or Palm Pre, or Android, or Blackberry, etc). And since we're talking about urban areas, being out of cell coverage probably isn't as big a worry.

 

But folks who have a BOTH an GPS-enabled smartphone and a PN-40 are probably in the minority. And the PN-40's imagery options are the best thing around for someone who will need it outside of data coverage and/or roughing it where you don't want to put your cell phone in harm's way

[+Rockin Roddy]

hi-res city

 

This should be easy enough, care to guess where this hi-res city aerial is from? I had this from my original trial plan...

[+fegan]

hi-res city

 

This should be easy enough, care to guess where this hi-res city aerial is from? I had this from my original trial plan...

 

No idea where that is.

 

That's hi-res? If so, I'll definitely stick with my iPhone. I can zoom in a LOT tighter than that using my iPhone. A view that wide would be useless for assistance finding a geocache.

 

And I still have NO idea how much space any of these aerial views would actually take. I've asked and I've not seen so much as an estimate. It's one thing to have the ability to have aerial views on a GPS...it's another thing to actually implement them over a large area in high enough resolution to be useful.

 

I know from a photography standpoint that raster-based photos will use significantly more space than simple vector-based map or topo data. I do know that the entire Garmin City Navigator (not NT) for the US takes almost 1.5GB (I think NT is about 900MB). I don't think I would be able to fit the entire state of Florida aerial maps on a 2GB card...I would even be willing to hazard a guess that I couldn't fit Florida on an 8GB card. Would I be correct?

[+Rockin Roddy]

Keep asking, maybe someone will answer...or you could try to find the answers in older threads. I am not sure and really in no hurry to find out.

 

As for the hi-res...here's another shot of the same areacloser

[+TotemLake]

hi-res city

 

This should be easy enough, care to guess where this hi-res city aerial is from? I had this from my original trial plan...

 

No idea where that is.

 

That's hi-res? If so, I'll definitely stick with my iPhone. I can zoom in a LOT tighter than that using my iPhone. A view that wide would be useless for assistance finding a geocache.

 

And I still have NO idea how much space any of these aerial views would actually take. I've asked and I've not seen so much as an estimate. It's one thing to have the ability to have aerial views on a GPS...it's another thing to actually implement them over a large area in high enough resolution to be useful.

 

I know from a photography standpoint that raster-based photos will use significantly more space than simple vector-based map or topo data. I do know that the entire Garmin City Navigator (not NT) for the US takes almost 1.5GB (I think NT is about 900MB). I don't think I would be able to fit the entire state of Florida aerial maps on a 2GB card...I would even be willing to hazard a guess that I couldn't fit Florida on an 8GB card. Would I be correct?

You asked that size question an hour ago. For someone who's not buying, you're pretty impatient about gaining answers. Particularly when you keep posting them one and two at a time, and some of us have been pretty quick about answering you. Please keep in mind some of us have personal lives outside of your Q&A. It is afterall, the weekend.

 

You might want to take into consideration one of the posts answering your questions mentioned it takes time to cut the maps. I don't think anyone has cut a size 100x100 miles. It's a rather large file and the PNs work best when you keep the file size below 1GB.

 

So to answer your question about Florida. I don't know but about 3/4 of Washington state in color aerials for the T8 alone is 98GB which needs to be recut for the PN. No size estimates there on what that'll constitute. YMWV based on how much info is transferred.

 

I'm heading out.

[+fegan]

Keep asking, maybe someone will answer...or you could try to find the answers in older threads. I am not sure and really in no hurry to find out.

 

As for the hi-res...here's another shot of the same areacloser

 

Yes, I am still very curious how much space these aerial views use. Define whatever area you choose...a square mile, a city, a state...the entire US.

 

Still have no idea what that building is, where it is, nor would I consider than high enough resolution as to assist with my geocaching.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Keep asking, maybe someone will answer...or you could try to find the answers in older threads. I am not sure and really in no hurry to find out.

 

As for the hi-res...here's another shot of the same areacloser

 

Yes, I am still very curious how much space these aerial views use. Define whatever area you choose...a square mile, a city, a state...the entire US.

 

Still have no idea what that building is, where it is, nor would I consider than high enough resolution as to assist with my geocaching.

 

Really...well, I believe you'd easily be able to tell where the cache is in regard to trees or buildings etc. Of course, maybe the phone will zoom down to show you the container itself?

[+fegan]

You asked that size question an hour ago. For someone who's not buying, you're pretty impatient about gaining answers. Particularly when you keep posting them one and two at a time, and some of us have been pretty quick about answering you. Please keep in mind some of us have personal lives outside of your Q&A. It is afterall, the weekend.

 

You might want to take into consideration one of the posts answering your questions mentioned it takes time to cut the maps. I don't think anyone has cut a size 100x100 miles. It's a rather large file and the PNs work best when you keep the file size below 1GB.

 

So to answer your question about Florida. I don't know but about 3/4 of Washington state in color aerials for the T8 alone is 98GB which needs to be recut for the PN. No size estimates there on what that'll constitute. YMWV based on how much info is transferred.

 

I'm heading out.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

 

Actually, IIRC, I had asked a similar question on another thread (might have even been on another forum) a while back and never got a response there either...so it seemed I had finally found an audience that was technically able to answer the question and I was anxious for an answer.

 

Yes, I realize I kept asking the same question over and over...but it seemed like all the responses I kept getting were dodging the question...not saying they did or didn't know the answer...like it was some kind of secret, or the number was going to be so large as to have people's jaws hitting the floor.

 

Yes, if we're talking about 98GB then this is definitely NOT a selling point for me, as my jaw has just hit the floor...so I'm done.

 

Thanks again.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

Yes, if we're talking about 98GB then this is definitely NOT a selling point for me, as my jaw has just hit the floor...so I'm done.

 

Thanks again.

It doesn't matter.

With an all you can download, unlimited amounts, for an annual subscription of $30 and $/GB of hard drives and SDHC cards falling faster than your jaw, it doesn't matter.

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

Yes, if we're talking about 98GB then this is definitely NOT a selling point for me, as my jaw has just hit the floor...so I'm done.

 

Thanks again.

It doesn't matter.

With an all you can download, unlimited amounts, for an annual subscription of $30 and $/GB of hard drives and SDHC cards falling faster than your jaw, it doesn't matter.

 

Not sure how many people would ever need an entire state in one shot either...but I'm living a sheltered life! The aerial, in case anyone is still wondering, was from the Vegas strip, I've stayed ther but the name has suddenly slipped my mind...typical! It's the castle themed casino where they do the jousting, I believe the MGM would be across the street...Excaliber maybe?

[+TotemLake]

You asked that size question an hour ago. For someone who's not buying, you're pretty impatient about gaining answers. Particularly when you keep posting them one and two at a time, and some of us have been pretty quick about answering you. Please keep in mind some of us have personal lives outside of your Q&A. It is afterall, the weekend.

 

You might want to take into consideration one of the posts answering your questions mentioned it takes time to cut the maps. I don't think anyone has cut a size 100x100 miles. It's a rather large file and the PNs work best when you keep the file size below 1GB.

 

So to answer your question about Florida. I don't know but about 3/4 of Washington state in color aerials for the T8 alone is 98GB which needs to be recut for the PN. No size estimates there on what that'll constitute. YMWV based on how much info is transferred.

 

I'm heading out.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

 

Actually, IIRC, I had asked a similar question on another thread (might have even been on another forum) a while back and never got a response there either...so it seemed I had finally found an audience that was technically able to answer the question and I was anxious for an answer.

 

Yes, I realize I kept asking the same question over and over...but it seemed like all the responses I kept getting were dodging the question...not saying they did or didn't know the answer...like it was some kind of secret, or the number was going to be so large as to have people's jaws hitting the floor.

 

Yes, if we're talking about 98GB then this is definitely NOT a selling point for me, as my jaw has just hit the floor...so I'm done.

 

Thanks again.

Back from buying yet another blender for my smoothies...

 

The 98GB is the download from DeLorme to show on Topo and as TCP has pointed out, under the all you can eat and keep buffet of $30 p/yr. This is strictly for the PC viewing.

 

There is an additional cut that has to be made to convert for the PN. So for the area I just went into I have a color aerial cut that is 26.85 square miles, which translates to about 98MB for the PN. An area of roughly a third that size in hi-res is 535MB. The hi-res is good enough on the PN for me to see the stall my Jeep is parked in. This is a screenshot I captured a couple months back wich accurately had me placed. Yes the car is actually parked between the lines, but I typically sit on the left side when driving so you'll see it has "me" properly centered.

Edited August 22, 2009 by TotemLake

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Yes, and that pictorial fits right in with an example of how I geocache in a parking lot that I posted earlier today:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...t&p=4040252

[+TotemLake]

I will add, the iPhone for the urban area is much superior to the imagery DeLorme has to offer for the same area. It has the added benefit of downloading the street level shots. For those of us whom do not own the iPhone, this is really the best tool to handle the job.

 

I'd love to see the GPS come out with a super hi-def screen. The colors you see on the screenshot are actually a little muted on the DeLorme screen. That being said, details are still very discernible and became useful on a hike I made last month to show how close we were to the cache in terms of how close it was to the edge of the real foliage coverage displayed on the screen. As (yet again) TCP pointed out, intelligent decisions on where and how to aim yourself can be made with these kinds of details. For me, that minimizes the bushwhacking required if I can see an easier way around. It's also gratifying to know the lake is just over the saddle when you can see it in an aerial. Yes, vectorized data and topos can show the same features (most of the time). But ask yourself this, would you rather see a hand drawing of a lake or the actual photo? The drawing will do the job. Don't get me wrong on that, but the photo can show you what to expect. Overlay topo on that and you have a superior product to analyze your next steps all in one tool.

[+embra]

Yes, I realize I kept asking the same question over and over...but it seemed like all the responses I kept getting were dodging the question...not saying they did or didn't know the answer...like it was some kind of secret, or the number was going to be so large as to have people's jaws hitting the floor.

 

Yes, if we're talking about 98GB then this is definitely NOT a selling point for me, as my jaw has just hit the floor...so I'm done.

I figured out memory requirements for all the different data types available in the DeLorme descriptions and posted my findings, but frankly I can't remember what the actual numbers were. For all practical purposes, the Hi-Res imagery has jaw-dropping huge requirements. They would be completely impractical for a thousand-square mile area, let alone a 10,000 sq mi area. Also, that imagery is only available for select urban areas, so it's even impossible to download for the region you specified an interest in (I see Jacksonville, Orlando, Tampa, and Miami are included).

 

Actually, I remembered a search term that allowed me to find the table I posted. It was estimates for the amount of memory needed for various data types to cover an area the size of Nevada. Since it's impossible to get Hi-Res for the whole state, I didn't even compute it. But the color satellite is a good compromise between file size and imagery detail: it came in at 362GB. As CowboyPapa pointed out, memory is cheap enough to not make this a problem for most data types available for the PNs, but the Hi-Res seems to me a definite exception.

 

The imagery is cool, but I find it most useful downloading what I need and not necessarily what I want. I readily concede to you and Lee (no gloating, Lee!) that downloading such imagery on an as-needed basis on a smartphone is an advantage for that setup.

 

Oh, Roddy's image appears to be the Excalibur Hotel & Casino...although since I've never seen it before I had to cheat and use the street intersection to ID it. I thought it was some sort of Disney building from looking at it.

[+user13371]

...The imagery is cool, but I find it most useful downloading what I need and not necessarily what I want. I readily concede to you and Lee (no gloating, Lee!) that downloading such imagery on an as-needed basis on a smartphone is an advantage for that setup

Me? Gloat?

 

Nah.

 

There are definitely places where the PN-40 is going to be the right tool for the job (go anywhere, imagery even out of cellular data range). But even so, loading hi-res imagery for large areas is just not practical, which is why I mentioned spot-loading earlier

[+Searching_ut]

The technology is so close, yet still so far. For me, cell phone coverage isn’t much of an option because maybe as much as half of my state doesn’t have coverage. (It’s gotten worse since the farther reaching analog signal has been done away with) Since I like to play in the backcountry, I’m generally in the areas without coverage, which is why the PN-40 excited me the way it did. Here is the reality though from one of my recent road trips.

 

It’s a three day weekend so I pick a direction and drive. 170 miles later I’m in green river Wyoming, where we spend a couple hours hiking the river trail, and checking out a trail up to an overlook. As mid day rolls around we head south to the Flaming gorge Dam, a trip of 75 miles. We tour the dam, jump off cliffs into the cool refreshing water for awhile, then head south another 45 miles to vernal Utah where we hole up for the night.

 

The next day has us exploring around dinosaur national monument, where we cover another 170 miles by road and a couple tenths shy of 15 miles of hiking and exploring on foot, prior to returning to Vernal. The next day has us taking the scenic southern route back home, traveling a couple hundred more miles by car and another 16 miles on foot with assorted sightseeing jaunts.

 

For that journey, at least 2/3’s of the time we were on foot, cell phone coverage wasn’t available. Due to the distances we were covering, and the non planned nature of the journey, aerial coverage wasn’t an option for the PN-40 either. Someday though, it’s just a matter of time. Of course by then, there probably won’t be any wilderness types of area to explore either.

[Allison Wunderland]

Just RETURNED a Garmin 450 for retailer refund. (He'd rather lose $$$ than a loyal customer.)

 

NW corner of OR was missing on my 24K Topo software. Dealer couldn't get it to function either. Customer support from Garmin is deplorable. I'm still not "registered" online (submitted two months ago). I'm still waiting for the "Software Discount" from Garmin.

 

Tech support issues go unanswered. Online documentation is sucky, skimpy, unsat.

 

Garmin dealer concedes that support is poor. Garmin evidently has moved to automobile GPS and let hand-helds tech fall into neglect.

 

Buy something else.