Would you be offended by a swastika on a cache container?

[+Castle Mischief]

 

Prove me wrong. Someone convert their avatar to the Swastika and see what happens.

 

Forum Fun Fact: Avatars and signature lines are not subject to the same rules as posts in the TOS for the forums! Feel free to hijack every single thread you post with your personal political slant for the entertainment and enjoyment of everybody! Make friends and influence the political process in a Geocaching forum!

[Dinoprophet]

So, anyone going to see Inglourious Basterds this weekend?

[GreenLantern5000]

To answer your question, yes I would be offended. That symbol, no matter how innocuous it's use, represents too much evil to ignore.

Is there more to this issue - of course. You asked, and I'm just letting you how I, one voice amongst many, feel.

 

The symbol is not evil. A symbol is incapable of evil. A symbol can only represent. What that symbol represents to you is evil and I do not for one second doubt that. But it is a matter of confusing the messenger with the message. Nazism was one of the most evil, twisted places the human mind has gone in written history. But the swastika is not Nazism.

 

That said... your feelings are your feelings, and I can't really argue to change them, so thanks for letting them be known.

 

Exactly what I was gonna say. A symbol can't be evil.....

 

Anyway, I think people are forgetting that we're talking about a themed cache here. If the cache was pirate themed and there were skull and crossbones on the cache, it would make sense. We're talking about a cache theme where nut-job, crazy nazi's are trying to do something evil and it's up to us to stop them!!!!!

 

Just like a movie, you don't have to go see it if you don't want to.....

 

I think this is a great idea for a cache. I would also not have any issue w/ someone putting together a cache w/ crosses on it, and a storyline about people trying to kill Christ and we have to stop them, or Muhammad, or Buhda, or Tom Cruise or whatever.... Pick your poison. If it's a good cache and the CO isn't suggesting the kidnapping or murder of a current living Jew or something, I seriously don't see the problem here........

 

There's far worse in the world than the story about narrow-minded, stupid, lame-brained, thick-skulled, un-intelligent, Nazis......

 

IMHO of course.

 

[knowschad]

Exactly what I was gonna say. A symbol can't be evil.....

 

Actually, I have had some fresh thoughts on that. There is one symbol that can be evil:

[+baloo&bd]

 

Prove me wrong. Someone convert their avatar to the Swastika and see what happens.

 

Forum Fun Fact: Avatars and signature lines are not subject to the same rules as posts in the TOS for the forums! Feel free to hijack every single thread you post with your personal political slant for the entertainment and enjoyment of everybody! Make friends and influence the political process in a Geocaching forum!

 

Then go ahead and change it. Aside from the user backlash, GC will most definitely ask you to remove it. This is not an issue of "politics".

[+Castle Mischief]

 

Prove me wrong. Someone convert their avatar to the Swastika and see what happens.

 

Forum Fun Fact: Avatars and signature lines are not subject to the same rules as posts in the TOS for the forums! Feel free to hijack every single thread you post with your personal political slant for the entertainment and enjoyment of everybody! Make friends and influence the political process in a Geocaching forum!

 

Then go ahead and change it. Aside from the user backlash, GC will most definitely ask you to remove it. This is not an issue of "politics".

 

I have no desire to change mine. And I'm just stating fact.

[+baloo&bd]

 

Prove me wrong. Someone convert their avatar to the Swastika and see what happens.

 

Forum Fun Fact: Avatars and signature lines are not subject to the same rules as posts in the TOS for the forums! Feel free to hijack every single thread you post with your personal political slant for the entertainment and enjoyment of everybody! Make friends and influence the political process in a Geocaching forum!

 

Then go ahead and change it. Aside from the user backlash, GC will most definitely ask you to remove it. This is not an issue of "politics".

 

I have no desire to change mine. And I'm just stating fact.

 

A fact that applies to politics, not the subject being discussed.

[+Castle Mischief]

 

A fact that applies to politics, not the subject being discussed.

 

I'd say that there's a political element, but I see your point.

[GreenLantern5000]

I see a difference between someone using a Swastika as their avatar vs. someone using a Swastika on a cache for stories sake....

 

The cache was telling a story, but usually a persons avatar is something that represents the person. something like that... does that make sense?

[+bflentje]

If you have to ask is someone will be offended, the answer is YES. It doesn't matter what you do, someone will be offended.

 

But it sounds like an awesome idea! I love themed puzzles.

 

True enough. But where is it written that ANYONE has the RIGHT to not be offended?

[+bflentje]

I see a difference between someone using a Swastika as their avatar vs. someone using a Swastika on a cache for stories sake....

 

The cache was telling a story, but usually a persons avatar is something that represents the person. something like that... does that make sense?

 

Like I said, context is everything. Glad someone else here has common sense too.

 

Besides, pretending the symbol doesn't exist doesn't erase history. The fact is, seeing the symbol may bring the evil to the forefront helping to stave off repeating history.

[Mushtang]

I really think you should change your mind about how the puzzle cache works. Having several puzzles to solve, and Final Solution leading you to the Nazi cache is just wrong.

Why?

Yeah... why?

I got it.

slapping forehead!! OK, so do I now.

Yeah...I just got it myself. Well, it's a good thing 99.99999% of people don't read into things...things that aren't there...as much as this person does.

Well, "this person" was making a joke that I thought would be obvious to 99.99999% of people that have a sense of humor. Talk about things that aren't there....

 

[knowschad]

Well, "this person" was making a joke that I thought would be obvious to 99.99999% of people that have a sense of humor. Talk about things that aren't there....

 

That assumes that 99.99999% of people have enough knowledge of the history of those times.

 

PS: What percentage of statistics are made up on the spot?

[Mushtang]

Well, "this person" was making a joke that I thought would be obvious to 99.99999% of people that have a sense of humor. Talk about things that aren't there....

That assumes that 99.99999% of people have enough knowledge of the history of those times.

True, but the joke had already been explained by the time that person posted his snarky reply.

 

PS: What percentage of statistics are made up on the spot?

I just looked it up and it's definitely 42.4%

[+tzipora]

Think about it clearly.

A Swastika on a Military Issue Ammunition can. What fool would think of Indians at that point or the thousands of other years of Swastika use. It's a MILITARY item with a Swastika. How could one not connect that to a Nazi symbol at that point?

 

There's the real crux of it for me. That, and there are other ways to decorate the cache that would evoke a less visceral reaction. A swastika painted on an ammocan geocache is, to me, unexpected regardless of the story behind the cache. The military background of the ammocan, plus the WWII story leave only one association for the swastika - the Nazis. Even if the Nazis are the bad guys in the story, it's not something to be taken lightly.

 

The eagle and wreath symbol would also get the point across without being so visceral.

[+tozainamboku]

Exactly what I was gonna say. A symbol can't be evil.....

 

Actually, I have had some fresh thoughts on that. There is one symbol that can be evil:

That is not an evil symbol. I've seen it stated many times in these forums, all that is wrong with geocaching is caused by this evil symbol:

[+tzipora]

I'm Jewish. I would probably have at least a tinge of offense, even if it's in keeping with the theme. I know you're putting it inside a locked box and all that, but if somehow, somebody accidentally didn't put the cache back and I came across it in the woods, I'd be very offended.

I guess you would have a problem visiting one of my favorite churches in Pittsburgh then, built in the early 1800, there are swastikas on the pillars that support the wrap around balcony. Before Hitler took the symbol as his own, it was also a christian cross. I think the idea is great, and I have SEVERAL members of my family who are practicing Jews.

 

If there is one thing I've learned about the Jewish community, it's that you can't compare Jews. We all have different opinions, and even different theological views. The old joke "two Jews, three opinions" has endured for a reason. We're diverse. But that's not my real point.

 

My real point is that there's a difference between swastikas as design elements (particularly pre-WWII designs) and swastikas meant to evoke the Nazis. I understand that it has other meanings. I appreciate those meanings as beautiful. It really is an attractive design, and appears in many cultures as a peaceful emblem. Although I'm not likely to visit a church, I can appreciate a lovely design, and what you're describing certainly sounds graceful. But they're not on a military artifact. That's a different can of worms.

 

There's also an element of expectation at play here. I can watch "Triumph of the Will" and appreciate the beauty of Leni Riefenstahl's cinematography, even though I know it's long been considered Nazi propaganda. Because I expect to see the swastika in a Nazi context, it's not shocking. My reaction is not visceral. Even with the preparation the CO gives with the story, I don't know that I'd expect to see a swastika painted on the cache. I can't even promise that I'd remember the story when I found the cache.

[+tozainamboku]

I think I've just proved Godwin's anti-law. If you start a thread in the geocaching forums about Nazis, eventually it will turn into a discussion about bogus logs, too many micros, or why can't I hide a virtual cache.

[+QuesterMark]

I think I've just proved Godwin's anti-law. If you start a thread in the geocaching forums about Nazis, eventually it will turn into a discussion about bogus logs, too many micros, or why can't I hide a virtual cache.

 

Tozainamboku's Corollary to Godwin's Law.

 

Too funny. Thank you for the laugh!

[knowschad]

I think I've just proved Godwin's anti-law. If you start a thread in the geocaching forums about Nazis, eventually it will turn into a discussion about bogus logs, too many micros, or why can't I hide a virtual cache.

 

Tozainamboku's Corollary to Godwin's Law.

 

Too funny. Thank you for the laugh!

 

Its right up there with Occam's Razor, isn't it?

[+Tavisman]

Unfortunately, Nazis didn't vanish in 1945.

In 1946 even if there were Nazi's (in German or USA) they would never promote it. The 'Sinews of Peace' address was about the Cold War and nothing to do with Nazi's. It was the seed (the very start) of the world power of the USA, the birth of the United Nations and the chance for the English-Speaking nations to show the world peace, democracy and freedom. This is something we're still trying to do over 50 years later! Yet to OP wants to associate this with Nazi's (sorry ex-Nazi's).

 

I can imagine little Johnny back as school… "What did you do in your summer vacation?". "I went geocaching with mom and dad in Fulton, Missouri. There was this true man and a church man, and the best bit, real Nazi treasure". Kids will pick up on visual aids first.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Tavisman

[+Tavisman]

Every hear of historical fiction? Take elements of real history, add some fictional elements, and there you go.

I can't be bothered to create a puppet account so just pretend I'm someone else…

 

Wow! What a brilliant idea for a puzzle cache. It has inspired me to create a multi-cache in my home city Birmingham, England. I love Birmingham so I am going to create a multicache based upon all the evil parts (and made-up evil parts) of Bill Clintons visit.

 

The cache page will explain the places in Birmingham, London which were visited by Bob Clinton, 10th unelected King of the Kingdom of America. Such as the café where he made a ill-informed comment about canals, also the place where his aides whispered in his ear about the Freedom for America terror-group who hijacked planes and crashed them into the twin towers in Scotland, England.

 

The clues will take you around the streets of Birmingham where you have to find burnt pieces of the star spangled banner, with a number written in the blood of an American. The final cache will be a box placed outside the Queen of England residence, Bucketandham Palace in Birmingham. The final cache is plastered with 'BOMB!', BNP, KKK, APL, NF, etc. logos, but the Republican logo will be hidden inside the box, out of views of muggles.

 

[The above is a joke to prove a point!]

 

@OP: If you want my two cents worth (or 2,000,000,000 Reichmarks worth), I would only mention an ex-Nazi involvement on the cache page in text, if it is proved fact. I would not glorify it by creating 'Nazi Treasure'. Please educate the masses with the principles of freedom, democracy, liberty, fraternity, etc.. Otherwise, leave the swastika idea alone for another 50 years when I think it will be less offensive. There are still people alive who were affected by the Nazi's

Edited August 18, 2009 by Tavisman

[+Von-Horst]

Er....an anti-Obama poster and an anti-Democrat poster balance?

 

Not to difficult to figure out your political leanings if you thought that was "balanced".

 

Oh yeah.. those are just hilarious! Thanks for the fair and balanced politics. Very "FOXy" of you.

 

Oops.

 

Sorry about that.

 

Could you cut a transatlantic poster a little slack?

 

I forgot which one is the donkey and which one is the elephant.

 

On the other hand, the responses above do reinforce the point I was (very badly) trying to make about swapping out te swastika...

 

Oh, andsince you asked (kind of), I'm personally on the side of the guy (or any guy,gal or indeterminate) that believes in making healthcare available to all....

 

Mike (who is appalled at his mistake)

[knowschad]

Could you cut a transatlantic poster a little slack?

I forgot which one is the donkey and which one is the elephant.

 

Mike (who is appalled at his mistake)

 

Too funny! Slack has been cut.

[+WebChimp]

So I ask...would such markings be offensive to you if you were to find the cache?

 

Offended? No. But, I'd still mark it in some other way.

[+mrbort]

Every hear of historical fiction? Take elements of real history, add some fictional elements, and there you go.

I can't be bothered to create a puppy account so just pretend I'm someone else…

 

Wow! What a brilliant idea for a puzzle cache. It has inspired me to create a multi-cache in my home city Birmingham, England. I love Birmingham so I am going to create a multicache based upon all the evil parts (and made-up evil parts) of Bill Clintons visit.

 

The cache page will explain the places in Birmingham, London which were visited by Bob Clinton, 10th unelected King of the Kingdom of America. Such as the café where he made a ill-informed comment about canals, also the place where his aides whispered in his ear about the Freedom for America terror-group who hijacked planes and crashed them into the twin towers in Scotland, England.

 

The clues will take you around the streets of Birmingham where you have to find burnt pieces of the star spangled banner, with a number written in the blood of an American. The final cache will be a box placed outside the Queen of England residence, Bucketandham Palace in Birmingham. The final cache is plastered with 'BOMB!', BNP, KKK, APL, NF, etc. logos, but the Republican logo will be hidden inside the box, out of views of muggles.

 

[The above is a joke to prove a point!]

 

@OP: If you want my two cents worth (or 2,000,000,000 Reichmarks worth), I would only mention an ex-Nazi involvement on the cache page in text, if it is proved fact. I would not glorify it by creating 'Nazi Treasure'. Please educate the masses with the principles of freedom, democracy, liberty, fraternity, etc.. Otherwise, leave the swastika idea alone for another 50 years when I think it will be less offensive. There are still people alive who were affected by the Nazi's

 

That hyperbolic joke barely makes sense even as a straw man argument. There was never a mention of education using historical fiction; it clearly presents itself as fiction with elements of history. I don't think that the OP is suggesting that this would be an educational cache; instead it seems designed as pure entertainment. The point that the scars of the past have not sufficiently faded from the public consciousness is a valid one as the emotional responses in this topic have shown. The OP is clearly demonstrating effort to avoid giving offense with this cache which is inspired by his or her creative muse. I'm afraid if historical inaccuracy is going to give offense, the OP is just going to have to offend a few.

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

The OP is clearly demonstrating effort to avoid giving offense with this cache which is inspired by his or her creative muse. I'm afraid if historical inaccuracy is going to give offense, the OP is just going to have to offend a few.

 

Nicely put. Alternative history (or as my beloved calls it, "Counterfactuals") has an honored place in literature and other media. Seeing it in a geocache is fun. The only issue with this one is ensuring that the fun can be enjoyed without offending, upsetting, or overwhelming the potential audience. I think the CO is making every effort to ensure that is the case.

 

Carolyn

[Dinoprophet]

Er....an anti-Obama poster and an anti-Democrat poster balance?

 

Not to difficult to figure out your political leanings if you thought that was "balanced".

 

Oh yeah.. those are just hilarious! Thanks for the fair and balanced politics. Very "FOXy" of you.

 

Oops.

 

Sorry about that.

 

Could you cut a transatlantic poster a little slack?

 

I forgot which one is the donkey and which one is the elephant.

 

On the other hand, the responses above do reinforce the point I was (very badly) trying to make about swapping out te swastika...

 

Oh, andsince you asked (kind of), I'm personally on the side of the guy (or any guy,gal or indeterminate) that believes in making healthcare available to all....

 

Mike (who is appalled at his mistake)

Slack cut. Honestly, I figured that was the problem. That, or you thought that second guy was Bush

Edited August 18, 2009 by Dinoprophet

[+Tavisman]

That hyperbolic joke barely makes sense even as a straw man argument. There was never a mention of education using historical fiction; it clearly presents itself as fiction with elements of history. I don't think that the OP is suggesting that this would be an educational cache; instead it seems designed as pure entertainment. The point that the scars of the past have not sufficiently faded from the public consciousness is a valid one as the emotional responses in this topic have shown. The OP is clearly demonstrating effort to avoid giving offense with this cache which is inspired by his or her creative muse. I'm afraid if historical inaccuracy is going to give offense, the OP is just going to have to offend a few.

Fine, we have both come to the same conclusion.

 

The education comes from the OPs use of Churchill's Speech (history = education). But hey, just change the text to read: 'Please educate entertain the masses with the principles of freedom, democracy, liberty, fraternity, etc...'

[+ArtieD]

Fine, we have both come to the same conclusion.

 

The education comes from the OPs use of Churchill's Speech (history = education). But hey, just change the text to read: 'Please educate entertain the masses with the principles of freedom, democracy, liberty, fraternity, etc...'

 

That is basically what I am trying to do. At its most basic level, it's a story of good (the geocacher doing the cache, magically transported back in time) triumphing over evil (the evilbad idiot ex-Nazis trying to kidnap Churchill).

 

Good vs. evil. Good wins. A popular story premise, one that should hopefully make a good cache.

 

All I wanted to do was to gauge public opinion about some of the decorative elements of the final cache container. I appreciate the comments and have come up with (I think) a good compromise.

[+Don_J]

 

The symbol is not evil. A symbol is incapable of evil. A symbol can only represent. What that symbol represents to you is evil and I do not for one second doubt that. But it is a matter of confusing the messenger with the message. Nazism was one of the most evil, twisted places the human mind has gone in written history. But the swastika is not Nazism.

 

Please understand that I did not say the symbol was evil; I said it represents evil, and I'm not in the least bit confused about this. I also think that the potential to evoke very strong negative emotions with this particular symbol far outweighs any possible good that could come out of it's use.

 

Agreed. You most certainly did not say that. Sorry if it seemed I was putting words in your mouth. Obviously (I hope!) I'm only trying to point out that we need to attack the ideas, and not the pictures of the ideas. Is there one person here that can seriously say that they were offended by the use of Nazi symbolism in Raiders?

 

Of course not, because the Nazi's were obviously the bad guys that Indy Jones was eventually going to defeat them. As long as the cache follows that theme, why would anyone be offended?

[+DanOCan]

At its most basic level, it's a story of good (the geocacher doing the cache, magically transported back in time) triumphing over evil (the evilbad idiot ex-Nazis trying to kidnap Churchill).

 

Good vs. evil. Good wins. A popular story premise, one that should hopefully make a good cache.

 

So, this is one situation where a DNF is truly evil.

[+doingitoldschool]

Fine, we have both come to the same conclusion.

 

The education comes from the OPs use of Churchill's Speech (history = education). But hey, just change the text to read: 'Please educate entertain the masses with the principles of freedom, democracy, liberty, fraternity, etc...'

 

That is basically what I am trying to do. At its most basic level, it's a story of good (the geocacher doing the cache, magically transported back in time) triumphing over evil (the evilbad idiot ex-Nazis trying to kidnap Churchill).

 

Good vs. evil. Good wins. A popular story premise, one that should hopefully make a good cache.

 

All I wanted to do was to gauge public opinion about some of the decorative elements of the final cache container. I appreciate the comments and have come up with (I think) a good compromise.

 

Betcha didn't see how big the discussion around your question would be, eh? It's been a pretty heated discussion! Thanks for showing nothing but openness to all the different opinions shown here.

[knowschad]

Agreed. You most certainly did not say that. Sorry if it seemed I was putting words in your mouth. Obviously (I hope!) I'm only trying to point out that we need to attack the ideas, and not the pictures of the ideas. Is there one person here that can seriously say that they were offended by the use of Nazi symbolism in Raiders?

 

Of course not, because the Nazi's were obviously the bad guys that Indy Jones was eventually going to defeat them. As long as the cache follows that theme, why would anyone be offended?

 

Exactly. Unfortunately, at least one would be offended, and in our current social order, that is all it takes. I think that its in the Consitution or one of the Ammendments... sorry... I forget which one.. that states that we shall never be offended. I dunno.. maybe its in the Bible. But I'm sure its somewhere important. LOL!

[+flask]

while i don't think i'd be personally offended, i do think i would see it as a breach of good taste. the swastika in its nazi appearance is still very much used by racist groups and is therefore outside the bounds of polite recreational use.

[AZcachemeister]

So the Nazis have perverted the Swastika, and it shall never be clean again?

[+flask]

So the Nazis have perverted the Swastika, and it shall never be clean again?

 

well, in the context of their trademark rendition, they have, and it shan't.

 

i don't think the Op is suggesting use of other uncorrupted versions of the design.

[+Sagefox]

while i don't think i'd be personally offended, i do think i would see it as a breach of good taste. the swastika in its nazi appearance is still very much used by racist groups and is therefore outside the bounds of polite recreational use.

 

I would have to agree with this. I have been trying to figure out how to respond to this topic and this post says it well. You can add all the rational you want to the cache page but this symbol is just too hot to handle. It will be misunderstood. It will take people to negative places. People won't like it.

[+BlueDeuce]

while i don't think i'd be personally offended, i do think i would see it as a breach of good taste. the swastika in its nazi appearance is still very much used by racist groups and is therefore outside the bounds of polite recreational use.

 

I would have to agree with this. I have been trying to figure out how to respond to this topic and this post says it well. You can add all the rational you want to the cache page but this symbol is just too hot to handle. It will be misunderstood. It will take people to negative places. People won't like it.

 

True, but it isn't always about what people like or dislike. Groundspeak quite often takes a beating on what they allow or disallow. Personal opinion is fine but I never assume to know that they will permit.

 

Hey, get all the input you want. Get a consensus and tweak the image as you see fit, but the forum doesn't decide this.

[+mrbort]

never mind on that post... wish there were a way to delete.

Edited August 19, 2009 by mrbort

[+Don_J]

Agreed. You most certainly did not say that. Sorry if it seemed I was putting words in your mouth. Obviously (I hope!) I'm only trying to point out that we need to attack the ideas, and not the pictures of the ideas. Is there one person here that can seriously say that they were offended by the use of Nazi symbolism in Raiders?

 

Of course not, because the Nazi's were obviously the bad guys that Indy Jones was eventually going to defeat them. As long as the cache follows that theme, why would anyone be offended?

 

Exactly. Unfortunately, at least one would be offended, and in our current social order, that is all it takes. I think that its in the Consitution or one of the Ammendments... sorry... I forget which one.. that states that we shall never be offended. I dunno.. maybe its in the Bible. But I'm sure its somewhere important. LOL!

 

I'm reminded of the disclaimer that is on the first page of every electrical device that we purchase. This device must accept electrical interference from other devices. The second part says that it may not cause interference to any other electrical device.

 

In a way, this is kind of what our society has become. We reserve the right to be offended by anything of our choosing. The second part, we do not have the right to offend.

 

In a perfect world, my computer monitor wouldn't go through contortions when my cell phone rings, and I wouldn't see any of the countless things that offend me throughout the course of my daily life.

[+Castle Mischief]

 

Hey, get all the input you want. Get a consensus and tweak the image as you see fit, but the forum doesn't decide this.

 

If only there was a person or group of people to contact before placing a cache to see if a particular cache would fall outside the guidelines. Oh, if only. Maybe someday these hypothetical people will exist and potential COs can check with these mythical persons. Until then I guess we're stuck with throwing ideas around on the forums and posting an angst thread when the cache doesn't get approved.

 

Insert emoticon with pupils aimed skyward.

 

Seriously, dude. Contact your reviewer. It can't be said often enough. You're wasting good caching time trying to convince forums members.

[+FoxMulders]

I only glanced at the responses over the past day and I should have written this yesterday when I first saw the post but ask yourself this:

 

"Is it required?"

 

If it isn't, do you want to risk offending even 1 person for something that isn't needed?

[+Ambrosia]

This has been an interesting read through. I'd add something, but everything that I've thought about has already been said (that's rather vague, I suppose!).

 

Anyways, this made me remember that when we were in D.C. last month, we were interested to see swastika's throughout the floor design outside of the entrance to the Senate floor (visitor's entrance). in the Capitol building.

[+The Blorenges]

We did a multi cache in Dublin a few months back which is based around the swastika design. It was a very interesting, well-thought out cache which led us around some nice parts of the city.

 

There's also an interesting comment from a German cacher who found it on 10th August...

 

"Ancient symbol" cache.

 

MrsB

[+Team GPSaxophone]

We did a multi cache in Dublin a few months back which is based around the swastika design. It was a very interesting, well-thought out cache which led us around some nice parts of the city.

 

There's also an interesting comment from a German cacher who found it on 10th August...

 

"Ancient symbol" cache.

 

MrsB

Excellent example of how to properly use a controversial item in a cache description. Thanks for sharing!

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

We did a multi cache in Dublin a few months back which is based around the swastika design. It was a very interesting, well-thought out cache which led us around some nice parts of the city.

 

There's also an interesting comment from a German cacher who found it on 10th August...

 

"Ancient symbol" cache.

 

MrsB

Excellent example of how to properly use a controversial item in a cache description. Thanks for sharing!

 

I thought it was cool, too! As several people here have said, context is everything.

 

Carolyn

[4wheelin_fool]

 

The symbol is not evil. A symbol is incapable of evil. A symbol can only represent. What that symbol represents to you is evil and I do not for one second doubt that. But it is a matter of confusing the messenger with the message. Nazism was one of the most evil, twisted places the human mind has gone in written history. But the swastika is not Nazism.

 

Please understand that I did not say the symbol was evil; I said it represents evil, and I'm not in the least bit confused about this. I also think that the potential to evoke very strong negative emotions with this particular symbol far outweighs any possible good that could come out of it's use.

 

Agreed. You most certainly did not say that. Sorry if it seemed I was putting words in your mouth. Obviously (I hope!) I'm only trying to point out that we need to attack the ideas, and not the pictures of the ideas. Is there one person here that can seriously say that they were offended by the use of Nazi symbolism in Raiders?

 

Of course not, because the Nazi's were obviously the bad guys that Indy Jones was eventually going to defeat them. As long as the cache follows that theme, why would anyone be offended?

 

In the movie "Indiana Jones" the nazi's were trying to obtain the Ark.

 

However, the reality is that the Germans have had it in their possesion since 1377. Hitler never would have had the cohones to do what he did otherwise. The attempt to eliminate the Jews was a bizzare attempt to fufill Revelations, which is why he said his reich would last 1000 years.

 

After what those scumbags did in WWII, any German military symbols on any cache for whatever reason is insane.

[+Castle Mischief]

In the movie "Indiana Jones" the nazi's were trying to obtain the Ark.

 

However, the reality is that the Germans have had it in their possesion since 1377. Hitler never would have had the cohones to do what he did otherwise. The attempt to eliminate the Jews was a bizzare attempt to fufill Revelations, which is why he said his reich would last 1000 years.

 

 

Wha-huh?

Edited August 20, 2009 by Castle Mischief

[+scorpio_dark]

Well, after doing some thinking and listening to your ideas and opinions, I did some tinkering and came up with this stencil. It incorporates the original design, yet omits the swastika. I replaced it with a geocaching logo I found on Google. What do you think?

 

 

 

I think that anything you do with the eagle will offend far fewer people than the swastika, especially since fewer people have the kind of instant recognition and associations with that symbol. In addition, the eagle gives more of a historical flavor since it is not currently being used in other contexts. Since you're in Missouri and not catering to a group of hyper-sensitive historians, my guess would be that this would pretty much solve the problem. So good job on thinking outside of the box.

 

Carolyn

 

P.S. I also think your cache sounds like fun.

 

The OP is clearly demonstrating effort to avoid giving offense with this cache which is inspired by his or her creative muse. I'm afraid if historical inaccuracy is going to give offense, the OP is just going to have to offend a few.

 

Nicely put. Alternative history (or as my beloved calls it, "Counterfactuals") has an honored place in literature and other media. Seeing it in a geocache is fun. The only issue with this one is ensuring that the fun can be enjoyed without offending, upsetting, or overwhelming the potential audience. I think the CO is making every effort to ensure that is the case.

 

Carolyn

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, I including the posts above to just say one thing. Be really careful . . . cause you just made it okay to offend excuse a minority Just a thought. Think, but don't worry that I am that serious! END EDIT

 

OP and other creative parties: I think there shouldn't be a problem with you using the eagle with wreath and swastika. It is a military symbol the represents the regular military units of a side in a conflict. Some may not have considered what some of those soldiers went through and/or didn't know about the country they thought they loved. I am one of those (what was it . . . . "hyper-sensitive historical enthusiasts"? ) people that don't appreciate historical inaccuracies and other PC moves to bleach a topic and make a weak attempt at a Utopian approach. Not trying to toke the flame, just sharing what it can feel like to us people . Now there are plenty of other symbols featuring or incorporating the swastika that represent the evil parts of Hitler's germany and really don't have a place in a game as this, IMO.

 

On the re-enactment outings I have been on, the "Germans" never wear the Nazi Party Symbols, but may have some in a historical display. They also never represent the "special units". Many re-enactment units representing the Germans will wear that eagle-wreath-swastika symbol because of the argument above. Their presence is generally about education. If you ask a seasoned re-enactor playing WWII German, many times you'll hear about Hitler's Germany, and Germany itself. By thoughts shared in this thread and throughout the world, it seems that many include the entire country and military of the period in their thoughts when they think of Hitler's Germany. I would encourage you to re-consider the "those people" approach.

 

That said, I think the historical fiction aspect is cool. I just would be sad if the only change you made to the history was to change/neutralize the symbol. I did like the Indy Jones approach of burning it from within

 

Whatever your choice, OP. Great theme and thanks for contributing your creativity to the caching world

And thanks all for your opionions and thoughts, some were very revealing and opened me to some more food for thought!

Edited August 20, 2009 by scorpio_dark