+The George's Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Are you trespassing if you are placing or retrieving a cache on a verge? Quote Link to comment
+HazelS Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 simple answer is no..... not if you're retrieving it... However... as the piece of land belongs to "someone" then you'd not be very popular if you placed oa cache there without their permission. Every piece of land in teh UK is owned by SOMEBODY... I work for a local authority, and I know that a verge in our borough would be owned by either the Highways Dept or the Housing Department, depending on where the land is. In most cases, it's the highways dept. NOT the Highways people you see digging up roads, but the highways department of the council. Just a reminder that every cache you place, you tick a box to state that you have obtained permission!!! Quote Link to comment
+*mouse* Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 No your not. You are only trespassing if you cause the land owner material loss. So assuming that you don't damage property, then no you can't be done for trespass. And as it's civil and not criminal, you can't be arrested for it either. And ticking a box presumes adequate permission, not that you actually obtained it. Quote Link to comment
+Topsy's Team Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 we are doing the chiltern hundred at the mo. Yesterday a very irate man shouted at us when we were trying to get a cache. He said that everytime we step off the road onto a verge we are trespassing and he is sick of people pooing in the hedge and that we were very childish lol Quote Link to comment
+Topsy's Team Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 we are doing the chiltern hundred at the mo. Yesterday a very irate man shouted at us when we were trying to get a cache. He said that everytime we step off the road onto a verge we are trespassing and he is sick of people pooing in the hedge and that we were very childish lol Quote Link to comment
+Topsy's Team Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 we are doing the chiltern hundred at the mo. Yesterday a very irate man shouted at us when we were trying to get a cache. He said that everytime we step off the road onto a verge we are trespassing and he is sick of people pooing in the hedge and that we were very childish lol Quote Link to comment
+hiho9 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 :s 3 identical posts with a time difference of 3 minutes :S Quote Link to comment
+keehotee Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 (edited) we are doing the chiltern hundred at the mo. Yesterday a very irate man shouted at us when we were trying to get a cache. He said that everytime we step off the road onto a verge we are trespassing and he is sick of people pooing in the hedge and that we were very childish lol Edited August 15, 2009 by keehotee Quote Link to comment
+The Blorenges Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Apparently Clan Riffster has his own T shirt version... "Every time you hide a film can, God kills a kitten" (I'm surprised Mr Keehotee hasn't got one of them all ready ) MrsB Quote Link to comment
+The George's Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 Hi sorry my sister added using mobile phone ,which obviously kept sending.Sorry about that.We are doing the chiltern hundred series.Yesterday whilst doing the chartridge loop we were set upon by some horrible man who lives on pednor lane in a big ugly new house.He first told us we were childish doing geocaching, which my wife laughed at. he then reversed and told us we were trespassing as we were going in the verges! Is this right or do we have to have permission from the land owner?? Quote Link to comment
+Topsy's Team Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 sorry for the multiple post, bad connection at hotel. Please check my profile for details on my caching name! I have annoyed philip by laughing in a public place, please be gentle Quote Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 we are doing the chiltern hundred at the mo. Yesterday a very irate man shouted at us when we were trying to get a cache. He said that everytime we step off the road onto a verge we are trespassing and he is sick of people pooing in the hedge and that we were very childish lol If you were poo-ing in his hedge, he may have a reason to be upset! Quote Link to comment
nobby.nobbs Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 From my understanding the highway extends from hedge to hedge so as long as you are moving along it you are within your rights. tresspass, as has been said, is a civil offence with no powers of arrest and can only be prosecuted if some form of damage is committed by yourself. A landowner may only use the minimum amount of force to escort you from their land onto the public highway. Of course this is all irrelevant as we've all got full permission to place our caches haven't we? Quote Link to comment
+Topsy's Team Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 i did not poo in the verge, i was looking for a cache lol Quote Link to comment
lakeuk Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Recommend listening to the 'ask permission' episode of the geocaching podcast http://www.geocachingpodcast.info/2009/08/...permission.html Quote Link to comment
+Pharisee Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 (edited) From my understanding the highway extends from hedge to hedge so as long as you are moving along it you are within your rights.tresspass, as has been said, is a civil offence with no powers of arrest and can only be prosecuted if some form of damage is committed by yourself. A landowner may only use the minimum amount of force to escort you from their land onto the public highway. Of course this is all irrelevant as we've all got full permission to place our caches haven't we? I'm probably wrong but I was under the impression that you could only be sued for trespass if the land owner had asked you to leave his property and you had refused (such as a load of Pikeys parking their caravans in his field and not moving on when asked). In this case the landowner would have to pursue it through the civil court. If you had caused damage to his property, then he could, quite rightly, call in the police and you could be prosecuted for criminal damage. The two offences are quite separate, one being civil and the other criminal. Edited for spelling mistake. Does anyone know how to get the spell checker working in Firefox? Edited August 15, 2009 by Pharisee Quote Link to comment
+*mouse* Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Apparently Clan Riffster has his own T shirt version... "Every time you hide a film can, God kills a kitten" (I'm surprised Mr Keehotee hasn't got one of them all ready ) MrsB That's Christmas sorted... Quote Link to comment
+lordelph Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 There a great guide to photography and UK law which includes sections on trespass. Well worth a read, particularly if you like taking pictures while out and about. Quote Link to comment
+t.a.folk Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 (edited) From my understanding the highway extends from hedge to hedge so as long as you are moving along it you are within your rights. tresspass, as has been said, is a civil offence with no powers of arrest and can only be prosecuted if some form of damage is committed by yourself. A landowner may only use the minimum amount of force to escort you from their land onto the public highway. Of course this is all irrelevant as we've all got full permission to place our caches haven't we? The legimate use of the grass verge was debated as far back as 1900 in the case of "Hickman v.Maisy 1900 Queens Bench " http://www.a-level-law.com/caselibrary/HIC...52%20-%20CA.doc Edited for correct link Edited August 17, 2009 by t.a.folk Quote Link to comment
+HazelS Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Oh and PLEASE dn't hide any film cans then..... Poor, poor kittens!!! Quote Link to comment
+The Other Stu Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 (edited) Apparently Clan Riffster has his own T shirt version... "Every time you hide a film can, God kills a kitten" (I'm surprised Mr Keehotee hasn't got one of them all ready ) MrsB That's Christmas sorted... Is this quote copyrighted? Edited August 17, 2009 by The Other Stu Quote Link to comment
+Happy Humphrey Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I'm probably wrong but I was under the impression that you could only be sued for trespass if the land owner had asked you to leave his property and you had refused (such as a load of Pikeys parking their caravans in his field and not moving on when asked). In this case the landowner would have to pursue it through the civil court. If you had caused damage to his property, then he could, quite rightly, call in the police and you could be prosecuted for criminal damage. The two offences are quite separate, one being civil and the other criminal. I don't think the "trespass" bit is quite right. You can't be sued for trespass if there's no damage, and the police won't be able to act either (even if you refuse to leave). The landowner does have the right to use moderate means to get you to leave, but as I understand it this doesn't allow him to go as far as physical force. I don't expect that the Highways authority would be the least bit interested in someone "trespassing" on the verge, either, and as *mouse* points out you only have to declare that you have adequate permission for the cache. In many cases, "adequate" equates to "none"; but in many more, full permission in writing is highly advisable. I thought it was Pressmore Farm on the Chiltern 100 that had the Farmer Palmer type in the area? Quote Link to comment
+Pharisee Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I'm probably wrong but I was under the impression that you could only be sued for trespass if the land owner had asked you to leave his property and you had refused (such as a load of Pikeys parking their caravans in his field and not moving on when asked). In this case the landowner would have to pursue it through the civil court. If you had caused damage to his property, then he could, quite rightly, call in the police and you could be prosecuted for criminal damage. The two offences are quite separate, one being civil and the other criminal. I don't think the "trespass" bit is quite right. You can't be sued for trespass if there's no damage, and the police won't be able to act either (even if you refuse to leave). The landowner does have the right to use moderate means to get you to leave, but as I understand it this doesn't allow him to go as far as physical force. I don't expect that the Highways authority would be the least bit interested in someone "trespassing" on the verge, either, and as *mouse* points out you only have to declare that you have adequate permission for the cache. In many cases, "adequate" equates to "none"; but in many more, full permission in writing is highly advisable. I thought it was Pressmore Farm on the Chiltern 100 that had the Farmer Palmer type in the area? From THIS website.... TRESPASS TO LAND DEFINITION Trespass to land occurs where a person directly enters upon another's land without permission, or remains upon the land, or places or projects any object upon the land. This tort is actionable per se without the need to prove damage. By contrast, nuisance is an indirect interference with another's use and enjoyment of land, and normally requires proof of damage to be actionable. Quote Link to comment
+Guanajuato Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Hi sorry my sister added using mobile phone ,which obviously kept sending.Sorry about that.We are doing the chiltern hundred series.Yesterday whilst doing the chartridge loop we were set upon by some horrible man who lives on pednor lane in a big ugly new house.He first told us we were childish doing geocaching, which my wife laughed at. he then reversed and told us we were trespassing as we were going in the verges! Is this right or do we have to have permission from the land owner?? What a grumpy, selfish, arrogant, up-themselves little prat! Sounds like HE'S the childish one. Sounds like a mass find of that particular cache is in order. That'll show him childish! Quote Link to comment
+Happy Humphrey Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Trespass to land occurs where a person directly enters upon another's land without permission, or remains upon the land, or places or projects any object upon the land. This tort is actionable per se without the need to prove damage. By contrast, nuisance is an indirect interference with another's use and enjoyment of land, and normally requires proof of damage to be actionable. Strictly speaking, that's correct. But if there's no damage, I'm told that the most the landowner could do is sue for nominal damages. I think you'd be very unlucky if you had to face such an action as a consequence of treading on a wayside verge (as in the OP's case). So in practice I don't think I'd worry about it. From the Ramblers Association; ...a notice saying “Trespassers will be Prosecuted”, aimed for instance at keeping you off a private drive, is usually meaningless. Criminal prosecution could only arise if you trespass and damage property. However, under public order law, trespassing with an intention to reside may be a criminal offence under some circumstances. It is also a criminal offence to trespass on railway land and sometimes on military training land. Quote Link to comment
+purple_pineapple Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Trespass to land occurs where a person directly enters upon another's land without permission, or remains upon the land, or places or projects any object upon the land. This tort is actionable per se without the need to prove damage. By contrast, nuisance is an indirect interference with another's use and enjoyment of land, and normally requires proof of damage to be actionable. Strictly speaking, that's correct. But if there's no damage, I'm told that the most the landowner could do is sue for nominal damages. I think you'd be very unlucky if you had to face such an action as a consequence of treading on a wayside verge (as in the OP's case). So in practice I don't think I'd worry about it. From the Ramblers Association; ...a notice saying “Trespassers will be Prosecuted”, aimed for instance at keeping you off a private drive, is usually meaningless. Criminal prosecution could only arise if you trespass and damage property. However, under public order law, trespassing with an intention to reside may be a criminal offence under some circumstances. It is also a criminal offence to trespass on railway land and sometimes on military training land. I'm fairly sure Pharisee is correct... As we are agreed, trespass is a civil offence and doesn't require any form of damage to take place. However, if no damage is occuring, all that a landowner can sue for is the forcable removal of the trespasser - as Nobby Nobbs said - without a court order, a landowner can only use minimal force to do this. However, this is only relevent if the trespass is ongoing (say squatters) and not if someone steps on a grass verge. In this case, unless the cacher intends to set up camp on the grass verge (but not do any damage) then the landowner can only sue to have them removed. If they leave, the landowner can't do anything. If damage is caused, then we may enter the realms of criminal damage and/or nuisance, but if a cacher is simply 'on the verge' they have nothing to fear, assuming they eventually leave! Hope that makes sense! Dave PS - back to the original question, I don't see how a cacher can be granted permission merely because they are looking for a cache - even if the cache box has permission! the right to be there is granted by the landowner, not the cache placer! Quote Link to comment
+Team-Harvey Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 We got challenged by a man, whilst doing that series a while back, and suspect it may be the same cache! He basically said the same thing, and he jumped from behind the hedge out of nowhere as if he was laying in wait for the next geocacher to come along! the cache at the time was hidden in a road sign on the verge near a farm gate. We managed to appease the grumpy old git - must be my lady charms : ) and contacted Dr Solly via e-mail. He promptly moved the cache I believe a bit further down the road. I bet it was the same bloke! Given the amount of visitors these caches get, he is bound to strike lucky on some geocaching victims every now and again. He also approached my sister when she was doing it, on a completly separate occasion - so you are not alone Quote Link to comment
+Mustards Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 From my understanding the highway extends from hedge to hedge so as long as you are moving along it you are within your rights.tresspass, as has been said, is a civil offence with no powers of arrest and can only be prosecuted if some form of damage is committed by yourself. A landowner may only use the minimum amount of force to escort you from their land onto the public highway. I think you will find that trespass is a criminal offence and you can be arrested if you refuse to leave. I left the Police 13 years ago and it was on the statue books then, can't remember the actual act. With reference to arrest, anyone can arrest as long as they see the offence being committed and it is an arrestable offence and a police officer only has to suspect that an offence has been committed. Quote Link to comment
+The Forester Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 As a Scandiwegian Scotsman I just have to Harrumpph at the Anglocentric answers. In Norway and Sweden we have Allemannsretten, which is a legal right to roam anywhere within reason. There are very few restrictions, such as the right to wildcamp anywhere being limited to two consecutive nights and walking rights being limited to more than 150 metres from a private residence, but in general you can go wherever you want. Elsewhere in the free world, such as in Scotland, there is a presumption of a right to roam. Even before the Countryside Access (Scotland) Act was passed, there was a presumption of a right to roam, within reason and with commonsense exceptions. Here in the free world there is no such thing as trespass without damage. That damage does not necessarily have to be physical. Obviously if you tramp across someone's barley field then you are trespassing, but any other form of damage involves trespass. That damage can be intangible. For example, at this time of year walking across a grouse moor can easily disrupt a grouse shoot. This involves loss to the estate and is therefore actionable. Similarly, during the stag hunting season your presence on the hill can easily disrupt a stalk, either by spooking the stalked deer or by spoiling a safe shooting line of fire. The very idea that it is trespass simply to walk on a roadside grass verge is preposterous, at least in the free world. Quote Link to comment
+keehotee Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 From my understanding the highway extends from hedge to hedge so as long as you are moving along it you are within your rights.tresspass, as has been said, is a civil offence with no powers of arrest and can only be prosecuted if some form of damage is committed by yourself. A landowner may only use the minimum amount of force to escort you from their land onto the public highway. I think you will find that trespass is a criminal offence and you can be arrested if you refuse to leave. I left the Police 13 years ago and it was on the statue books then, can't remember the actual act. With reference to arrest, anyone can arrest as long as they see the offence being committed and it is an arrestable offence and a police officer only has to suspect that an offence has been committed. Aggravated trespass is a criminal offence......but you'd need to be trespassing in order to commit a more serious crime than looking for a box. It is also arrestable if you trespass on.... railways, explosives stores (including privately owned), and military installations....amongst other cache friendly locations Quote Link to comment
+JeremyR Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I think you will find that trespass is a criminal offence and you can be arrested if you refuse to leave. Technically, yes, but the likelihood of that happening is slim to nil. In order to be arrested for trespassing whilst geocaching, the following would have to happen: - Cache is placed without permission of land owner (never happens, right?! ) - Land owner gets cross. - Geocacher is asked to leave by the land owner. - Geocacher doesn't leave. - Land owner calls police. - Police arrive... eventually (not exactly a high-priority call out). - Police ask geocacher to leave. - Geocacher still refuses to leave. - Trespass is now aggravated and geocacher gets arrested. Honestly, if you haven't found it, signed it and moved on by the time all that has happened, something's wrong with your geoskills As mentioned, trespass is only immediately criminal if law (or by-law) makes it so. Railways, nuclear sites, government or military installations, etc, etc... Quote Link to comment
nobby.nobbs Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I left the force 8 years ago. The ways and means act would apply. Basically you'd be nicked for breach of the peace maybe but only if you REALLY REALLY irritated the policeperson. At the end of the day all you need to do is explain what you are doing to them and they'd just ask you to leave.... and unless you are really wanting an argument you go. life is way too short.... Quote Link to comment
+agentmancuso Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 As a Scandiwegian Scotsman I just have to Harrumpph at the Anglocentric answers. In Norway and Sweden we have Allemannsretten, which is a legal right to roam anywhere within reason. There are very few restrictions, such as the right to wildcamp anywhere being limited to two consecutive nights and walking rights being limited to more than 150 metres from a private residence, but in general you can go wherever you want. Elsewhere in the free world, such as in Scotland, there is a presumption of a right to roam. Even before the Countryside Access (Scotland) Act was passed, there was a presumption of a right to roam, within reason and with commonsense exceptions. Here in the free world there is no such thing as trespass without damage. That damage does not necessarily have to be physical. Obviously if you tramp across someone's barley field then you are trespassing, but any other form of damage involves trespass. That damage can be intangible. For example, at this time of year walking across a grouse moor can easily disrupt a grouse shoot. This involves loss to the estate and is therefore actionable. Similarly, during the stag hunting season your presence on the hill can easily disrupt a stalk, either by spooking the stalked deer or by spoiling a safe shooting line of fire. The very idea that it is trespass simply to walk on a roadside grass verge is preposterous, at least in the free world. What he said. Quote Link to comment
+Alibags Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 We got challenged by a man, whilst doing that series a while back, and suspect it may be the same cache! He basically said the same thing, and he jumped from behind the hedge out of nowhere as if he was laying in wait for the next geocacher to come along! ... When I did the caches round Pednor Lane, we too were challenged by a local man. He followed us around in his car before challenging us. This bloke said that they had had a spate of house break-ins in the area and he was concerned what we were up to because we were acting suspiciously and he had called the police. We explained that we were harmless nutters and carried on about our business. Never saw any police (or cachers pooing in the verge!). Quote Link to comment
+uktim Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 We got challenged by a man, whilst doing that series a while back, and suspect it may be the same cache! He basically said the same thing, and he jumped from behind the hedge out of nowhere as if he was laying in wait for the next geocacher to come along! ... When I did the caches round Pednor Lane, we too were challenged by a local man. He followed us around in his car before challenging us. This bloke said that they had had a spate of house break-ins in the area and he was concerned what we were up to because we were acting suspiciously and he had called the police. We explained that we were harmless nutters and carried on about our business. Never saw any police (or cachers pooing in the verge!). This is a possibility that too few cache setter seem aware of. If you encourage people skulk aorund in the hedge at the bottom of someones garden or at the end of their drive it's only a matter of time before someone gets twitchy and issues arise. A quick 2 minute scan of google maps reveals that the area mentioned isn't exactly short of caches that could cause this problem. Quote Link to comment
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