HRBRRD ? about the GSL in the ADK

[+swizzle]

So I go to the field office of the Hudson River Black River Regulating District today to look for state lands around the Great Sacandaga Lake in the Adirondacks that haven't been allocated to permit owners. The guy seemed like he was trying to help me without actually trying to help me. Acted like everything was too offical or needed a special request from a higher up. I wanted to know where public access was on the lake so I could place some caches. He kept telling me that the state land all around the lake is almost completely blocked by private land. I then asked him if I could put a cache on the field office property. Its right on the lake and its state land. That would also require special permission and he started acting nervous. He told me he'd have to ask another guy. I ask if I could talk to the guy instead of him playing the middle man. A bit reluctantly he went and got the guy. I talked to him for a while and because of potential "security" issues I'm not allowed to put a cache on their field office property. He then told me about a spot just down the road where I could place a cache. Has lake access, overviews a lot of the towns, hamlets and villages that are now under water. That's what I'm looking for is spots like this around the lake that I can set up my history of the lake cache at. He said there's a gate and just walk around it and I can go all through this area. There's a mile stretch of state land here. I say thanx and leave. Go to the spot an there's a sign that says no trespassing on the gate. I turned right back around and told him I can't put a cache here, no one will go to it if that sign is there. He agreed and said that he's not quite even sure why that sign is there and that he'll go check on it. I am far from intimidating. I'm 5'2" and quite laidback and both of these guys were acting like a caught them with there pants down? Well anyways we get the ok to go down and I ask him if I can get it in writing that its ok for anyone to access that spot. He can't do it and obviously didn't know who could give me that type of note to add to my cache page. He says he'll go check on the sign but I don't think he's going to. Sounds to me like he just wishes I would walk away and forget about it. Well with the ok me and wifey and 2 boys head down to the beach and scope the spot out and other then the plywood, roofing tin, old junk tires, boat trailer, some type of junk platform and some other misc. junk its nice. I'm guessing that they don't want the general public to know about it. Maybe there's more "state trash" that I haven't seen yet. If he doesn't remove the sign or put a different sign up that isn't a no trespassing sign then what should I do next. I really want to open up this spot. I honestly don't think they should have it gated off. If they didn't though I'm sure the place would be trashed. Has anyone else this much trouble finding state land thats accessible to everyone? Sometime this week I'll be going to the DEC to access more maps of wilderness areas. I just want a bit of help on how to push the right buttons without pushing to hard. The first guy said it would take him weeks to go through all the maps for me to get the maps that I want to look at. After all there's 400 of them. In the half hour that I was there I went through 50 maps. It just seems like he's trying to keep me in the dark about something. Any ideas? Swizzle

[+Jeep4two]

Interesting situation... It almost sounds like they viewed you as an intruder for some reason. That's a red flag to me. Public lands often get used for many things that, well. . . they shouldn't be used for. I'm not sure what's going on there but something seems very out of the ordinary and I somehow doubt it's the 'stale trash'.

 

I can't think of a valid reason that things would be so difficult to figure out. If the state is selling permits for land usage to private lessees it would stand to reason that adequate records of land allocation would be at hand to accommodate the sale of new permits to potential 'buyers' (I mean overview maps, references, boundries, etc). Being unable to help or being difficult could just be the norm for these folks to discourage the non-buying public from visiting the area, or something else...

 

I would be unlikely to pursue it since if they don't want you and other cachers there your hide will be unlikely to last long before mysteriously going lost. . .

 

I could be wrong - I have little information and didn't have the benefit of reading their body language and seeing things as they played out. I hope I'm wrong. As a taxpayer who supports these types of public lands I both respect the desire to protect them, but also feel that when activities by the public pose no harm they should be welcomed. Showcasing what an area has to offer (even if it is a fairly narrow group like Geocachers - comparatively) is important in building knowledge, respect and appreciation for our environment and surroundings that will ultimately foster a better place for us all. I know - my view may be somewhat idealistic and even unrealistic in some ways but I try to look at the positive.

[AZcachemeister]

If I really, really, really liked the location SUGGESTED by your official-type person, I would:

 

1) Host a CITO event at the site to clean things up. Remove all the trash, make it a really nice place to visit.

2) Hide my cache and claim permission given by said individual. If the signs are there after the CITO, note that they do not apply to geocachers (per permission giving individual) who know how to behave themselves.

 

I suspect the reaction noted was mostly due to you proposing something they had no experience with, so the need to think original thoughts was a bit perplexing to them.

Edited August 12, 2009 by AZcachemeister

[+sbell111]

If I really, really, really liked the location SUGGESTED by your official-type person, I would:

 

1) Host a CITO event at the site to clean things up. Remove all the trash, make it a really nice place to visit.

2) Hide my cache and claim permission given by said individual. If the signs are there after the CITO, note that they do not apply to geocachers (per permission giving individual) who know how to behave themselves.

 

I suspect the reaction noted was mostly due to you proposing something they had no experience with, so the need to think original thoughts was a bit perplexing to them.

Agreed.

[+Unkle Fester]

Occasionally land magagement offices get caught allowing activities (Logging) in areas that are not supposed to be done, then they claim ignorance of the issue or that it was a mistake. I've seen some get fired for taking a kickback to allow it. Same thing with the private property next door, some people encroch and post the signs even though they are not supposed to.

 

I'm not saying that's what is going on...

 

If it were me, I would go to the state headquarters and talk to the managers there. They could give you permission and clarify (and correct) the office in question.

 

I'm a firm believer that if you cannot give me a definitive answer, I am going over your head until I get resolution.

 

I have just the opposite problem, I'm 6', 230# with a shaved head and a constantly Ticked Off look on my face. But I'm laid back and easy going too. A lot of people don't take the time to see that.

[+Castle Mischief]

Just out of curiosity, are any of these areas visible at this site: http://www.emapsplus.com/ ?

 

Surely there's a record of ownership available elsewhere.

[+swizzle]

Just out of curiosity, are any of these areas visible at this site: http://www.emapsplus.com/ ?

 

Surely there's a record of ownership available elsewhere.

 

No its not on that site. I can't even click on NY. As far as the whole No Trespassing thing goes I wonder if they are intentionally posting the sign to keep the area to themselves and their own families. Kind of a private perk beach to the people that work in that building. The first guy, the surveour, said he just came back from alaska and geocaching is big up there. So he definately knows what geocaching is. The other guy acted like he's come across a few caches/cachers but they both might not understand the whole concept of the game I suppose. I looked on the dec's interactive mapping program and it highlights all of the dec areas in green. The area that I'm being told is state land isn't highlighted at all. Can there be a difference between state land and dec state land or are they one in the same? Swizzle

[+sbell111]

Just out of curiosity, are any of these areas visible at this site: http://www.emapsplus.com/ ?

 

Surely there's a record of ownership available elsewhere.

 

No its not on that site. I can't even click on NY. As far as the whole No Trespassing thing goes I wonder if they are intentionally posting the sign to keep the area to themselves and their own families. Kind of a private perk beach to the people that work in that building. The first guy, the surveour, said he just came back from alaska and geocaching is big up there. So he definately knows what geocaching is. The other guy acted like he's come across a few caches/cachers but they both might not understand the whole concept of the game I suppose. I looked on the dec's interactive mapping program and it highlights all of the dec areas in green. The area that I'm being told is state land isn't highlighted at all. Can there be a difference between state land and dec state land or are they one in the same? Swizzle

Regarding the bolded bit, how could this be? Did they not tell you that you could plant a geocache there? I doubt that they would invite geocachers to this spot if they wanted it to remain a secret.

 

Regarding the sign, it's more likely that it was placed there either prior to the location becoming a park or because they previously used that area for some type of storage.

[+cachesuchen]

I have a buddy who is a DEC agent out in that neck of the woods. Could you PM the names of the Officers to me? I'll ask him about them, and see if he knows anything that is going on up there. I'll find out from him if there is anything in NYS that is "unofficially" a policy against geocaching or along those lines.

[+swizzle]

I have a buddy who is a DEC agent out in that neck of the woods. Could you PM the names of the Officers to me? I'll ask him about them, and see if he knows anything that is going on up there. I'll find out from him if there is anything in NYS that is "unofficially" a policy against geocaching or along those lines.

 

I could PM you the names but I'm not looking to get anyone fired or in trouble unless you think there's is something more going on there. I'll be talking to a DEC officer or 2 in the next couple days. I have to look at a map or 4 and talk a bit about the types of caches I'll be placing as well as finding out more about the adopt a natural resource program. I'll bring it up then. I just think its strange that the guy tells me its state land and anyone can go there and then encountering the sign. When I asked him about it he said that it was to keep vehicles out of there and he's not sure why THAT sign is there. I asked him "Well isn't that what the gates for?" maybe someone put up the wrong sign? After going on the DEC site and looking for state land around the lake I was suprized to see that "state land" isn't listed as state land on their mapping program. Another thing is that the state owns all of the land around the lake. They just lease it to permit holders. There's spots around the lake that are accessible to the general public but they aren'y highlighted as state land. Which I think it should be even if you need a boat to access it. The area that I was told about 500 feet up the road from the office has state land across the road all the way to the main road but all of the signs are ripped down. The whole thing just seems a little odd I guess. I'm probably making a big to do over nothing but I will keep pushing until that sign is removed or changed in some way that says that it is accessible to all. Swizzle

[+Harry Dolphin]

It souds as though you ran into people who had no idea what you were talking about, and you confused them. Like the time I asked the park superintendent for written permission to put out an EarthCache. She enjoys geocaching in the park, but 'written permission'??? Too much responsibility for her to take!

I see lots of No Trespassing signs that should have been removed when the state purchased the land. But never were. I especially like the New Jersey Department of Environmental Conservation sign tacked over the "rod and reel club no trespassing sign'.

We seem to have a long standing disagreement between the state and federal governments. They seem to be mighty miffed at each other! The Interstate runs through the state park. The rest area is surrounded by a fence proclaiming "State Property. No Trespassing." With hiking trails on the other side of the fence! Come on people. Let's be friendly! Not to mention the US highway liberally posted with the same State Property. No Trespassing signs.

I suspect that you may be thinking far more devious thoughts that are actually intended.

[+swizzle]

It souds as though you ran into people who had no idea what you were talking about, and you confused them. Like the time I asked the park superintendent for written permission to put out an EarthCache. She enjoys geocaching in the park, but 'written permission'??? Too much responsibility for her to take!

I see lots of No Trespassing signs that should have been removed when the state purchased the land. But never were. I especially like the New Jersey Department of Environmental Conservation sign tacked over the "rod and reel club no trespassing sign'.

We seem to have a long standing disagreement between the state and federal governments. They seem to be mighty miffed at each other! The Interstate runs through the state park. The rest area is surrounded by a fence proclaiming "State Property. No Trespassing." With hiking trails on the other side of the fence! Come on people. Let's be friendly! Not to mention the US highway liberally posted with the same State Property. No Trespassing signs.

I suspect that you may be thinking far more devious thoughts that are actually intended.

 

You mean they might not actually be growing pot to ship to cali for glucoma patients? Dang and I thought I was onto something good. Swizzle

[+wimseyguy]

Did you also hear the black helicopters above when you were at this location?

Cuz ya know you cannot actually see them.....

 

You mentioned the G word, and they had no idea what you were talking about. Then they got confused when you started talking about a section of their property that they haven't visited in years, and knew nothing about.

[+chrisrayn]

So I go to the field office of the Hudson River Black River Regulating District today to look for state lands around the Great Sacandaga Lake in the Adirondacks that haven't been allocated to permit owners. The guy seemed like he was trying to help me without actually trying to help me. Acted like everything was too offical or needed a special request from a higher up. I wanted to know where public access was on the lake so I could place some caches. He kept telling me that the state land all around the lake is almost completely blocked by private land. I then asked him if I could put a cache on the field office property. Its right on the lake and its state land. That would also require special permission and he started acting nervous. He told me he'd have to ask another guy. I ask if I could talk to the guy instead of him playing the middle man. A bit reluctantly he went and got the guy. I talked to him for a while and because of potential "security" issues I'm not allowed to put a cache on their field office property. He then told me about a spot just down the road where I could place a cache. Has lake access, overviews a lot of the towns, hamlets and villages that are now under water. That's what I'm looking for is spots like this around the lake that I can set up my history of the lake cache at. He said there's a gate and just walk around it and I can go all through this area. There's a mile stretch of state land here. I say thanx and leave. Go to the spot an there's a sign that says no trespassing on the gate. I turned right back around and told him I can't put a cache here, no one will go to it if that sign is there. He agreed and said that he's not quite even sure why that sign is there and that he'll go check on it. I am far from intimidating. I'm 5'2" and quite laidback and both of these guys were acting like a caught them with there pants down? Well anyways we get the ok to go down and I ask him if I can get it in writing that its ok for anyone to access that spot. He can't do it and obviously didn't know who could give me that type of note to add to my cache page. He says he'll go check on the sign but I don't think he's going to. Sounds to me like he just wishes I would walk away and forget about it. Well with the ok me and wifey and 2 boys head down to the beach and scope the spot out and other then the plywood, roofing tin, old junk tires, boat trailer, some type of junk platform and some other misc. junk its nice. I'm guessing that they don't want the general public to know about it. Maybe there's more "state trash" that I haven't seen yet. If he doesn't remove the sign or put a different sign up that isn't a no trespassing sign then what should I do next. I really want to open up this spot. I honestly don't think they should have it gated off. If they didn't though I'm sure the place would be trashed. Has anyone else this much trouble finding state land thats accessible to everyone? Sometime this week I'll be going to the DEC to access more maps of wilderness areas. I just want a bit of help on how to push the right buttons without pushing to hard. The first guy said it would take him weeks to go through all the maps for me to get the maps that I want to look at. After all there's 400 of them. In the half hour that I was there I went through 50 maps. It just seems like he's trying to keep me in the dark about something. Any ideas? Swizzle

 

I'm in a similar situation right now. Nature has taken some land back out near me on a public road that is no longer being maintained and sports two bridges that have been destroyed. I've found out it's okay to walk the entire distance of the public road, but I want to get the okay from the landowners on both sides of the road before I do it...just because I don't want them to come out shouting about it being their road when it's not.

[+swizzle]

I'm in a similar situation right now. Nature has taken some land back out near me on a public road that is no longer being maintained and sports two bridges that have been destroyed. I've found out it's okay to walk the entire distance of the public road, but I want to get the okay from the landowners on both sides of the road before I do it...just because I don't want them to come out shouting about it being their road when it's not.

 

If its a public road then you shouldn't have to notify anyone about your cache unless the pull off for it is onto their property. If it is then I would assume that the pull off is on one side of the road. Just gain the permission from that particular person. If its not on either side of the road then I'd just place the cache and if anyone has a problem they'll e-mail you or post it in a log. If that's the case you go to the offending land owner and ask to see their "Road Deed". They don't own it but they still might give a little bit of grief about people parking or driving down "their" road. People like this remind my of crayfish. You see them staring out their windows and as soon as you get close to their yard they come out like a raging crawdad, swinging their arms about and want you gone. Once they find out you're not after their pot farm or daughter then most of them will leave you alone. A bit grumpy but they do tend to just go away even if they are a little miffed at first. Swizzle