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Are puzzle caches really in the spirit of geocaching?


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And more

importantly, are puzzle caches really in the spirit of geocaching?

Absolutely!

 

Yes, in that there really needs to be a mental part to the hobby. Heck, even simply going to the gym has a mental component. In geocaching the mental part is "how do I get from where I am to the cache?" There's always going to be a mental part. Even sans "puzzles" and what some might consider a purely physical hunt there comes a time where you have to figure something out. Climb up a cliff and you'll have to figure out what kind f gear you need or whether you need training. A cache in the middle of nowhere will need trip planning. Just right there you have a puzzle of where you need to park your vehicle or figure out some other transportation for you to the trail head.

 

Sure, those are all fairly trivial mental exercises, but it's all a matter of degrees.

 

Next, you arrive at ground zero and discover the cache it up a tree with no limbs reachable from the ground. You have to figure out how to either get the cache down or get yourself up there. There you go, a puzzle.

 

The puzzles can get harder and harder keeping from the prize. Where the puzzle is in the hunt can get pushed back further and further until it is at the very beginning. Then you're looking at what looks like a completely different animal when, in fact, it's on the same continuum--you've just not seen everything in between.

 

The only thing about puzzles-caches is they are placed in the "unknown" category because the starting point is not published. This is so you know you have to do something before you hit the field. That way you don't show up and it's the middle of a retention pond and you think the cache is at the bottom.

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100 posts here and I am still waiting on someone to define "the spirit of geocaching". :D

I nominate vodka. Personally I think beer would be more appropriate, but I don't think beer is a spirit.

 

Edit : I can just see the ad. "Absolut Geocaching"

Edited by Chrysalides
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100 posts here and I am still waiting on someone to define "the spirit of geocaching". :D

I nominate vodka. Personally I think beer would be more appropriate, but I don't think beer is a spirit.

 

Edit : I can just see the ad. "Absolut Geocaching"

 

That's hilarious ;)

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100 posts here and I am still waiting on someone to define "the spirit of geocaching". :D

I nominate vodka. Personally I think beer would be more appropriate, but I don't think beer is a spirit.

 

Edit : I can just see the ad. "Absolut Geocaching"

 

Looks like Absolut had good intentions about geocaching at one time.

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You've misunderstood me Carolyn. I don't believe the majority of puzzle owners add a puzzle element with the intention of reducing the number of people to their cache. By adding a puzzle, they have intentionally made the cache more difficult to find, with the resulting effect of less people visiting it.

 

Thank you for the clarification. You are right, I misunderstood you. I suppose that is true that puzzles make caches less likely to be found.

 

For me, it is nice to have a bit of difficulty, whether it comes from difficult terrain, puzzling surroundings, or a puzzle prior to the cache. Having to work for the cache wakes up my brain. And the one great thing about the difficulties puzzles present is that one wrong answer does not condemn one to be Gator Chow. I get to live to try again! :D

 

You have got my second quote wrong completely. It is exactly as I have stated. I don't believe difficult terrain caches are ever created with the intention of reducing the amount of traffic. They can either be created for the physical challenge involved (in which case you want as many people as possible to push their normal comfort zone and challenge themselves physically) or they are hidden in outstanding locations which more often than not just happen to be difficult places to get to (in which case you want as many people as possible to go there to appreciate the places that they may otherwise never see). Due to the terrain rating, you can't expect many people to visit, but it would be nice if they did! ;)

 

Now here I think I was unclear. I wasn't quoting you to say that you set caches to limit visitors. Rather, my implication was that other people on this forum have said that one advantage for them in creating high terrain caches is that it discourages visitors. (This comes up in the threads where cache owners complain that too many power cachers find their caches and produce dull logs.) So therefore, even though you do not think that way, other people do. My point is that some cache owners seek to limit visitors and they can do it either with a difficult terrain or a puzzle or a challenging camoulflage.

 

Reading over my previous paragraph, it doesn't seem much clearer and it's overly wordy. But I can't figure out how to make it better. So my apologies for that. I hope a little light reaches through my muddy prose.

 

Carolyn

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100 posts here and I am still waiting on someone to define "the spirit of geocaching". :D

I nominate vodka. Personally I think beer would be more appropriate, but I don't think beer is a spirit.

 

Edit : I can just see the ad. "Absolut Geocaching"

 

As for the spirit of geocaching, I'm leaning toward Bacardi Limon.

 

Given Geocaching.com's restrictions on alcoholic beverages in caches, I don't think that any of these things can be the spirit of geocaching.

 

The spirit of geocaching may be something supernatural. Don't we keep hearing about occult hands? (Notice that it is only the severed occult hands we hear about, never the feet or head or other parts of the occult torso. That must have some sort of deeper meaning.)

 

Carolyn

Edited by Steve&GeoCarolyn
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How does everyone else feel about puzzle caches out there in the big world? And more

importantly, are puzzle caches really in the spirit of geocaching?

 

I'm not one to do the high terrain caches, don't fancy risking my life or getting wet/dirty if I can avoid it, but the park & grabs can get mighty boring...so I try to do at least 1 puzzle a week.

 

Something for everyone...some folks like park & grabs, some like long hikes, some like puzzles.

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Given Geocaching.com's restrictions on alcoholic beverages in caches, I don't think that any of these things can be the spirit of geocaching.

But you misunderstand. The spirit is not supposed to be in the cache, but in the cacher. It should suffuse us and fill our being.

 

Why do I suddenly feel like having a beer?

 

The spirit of geocaching may be something supernatural. Don't we keep hearing about occult hands? (Notice that it is only the severed occult hands we hear about, never the feet or head or other parts of the occult torso. That must have some sort of deeper meaning.)

:D I'll be sure to mention the Occult Hangnail when I find an opportunity.

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It's very irritating to be loading up a set of caches for a weekend whirlwind, then find one that says, "This cache is no where near these coordinates. Search these coordinates up in Google, click the 3rd most popular link on the page, thenfind the longest word on that page. Decrypt it using my formula here & that will tell you which hous number you need to start in front of. Drive north & look for the big tree"

 

That's not my idea of "geocaching".

It isn't Groundspeak's idea of geocaching either.

GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

You can avoid the irritation by not downloading caches of type "Unknown". From your description of your preferences, you probably want only caches of type "Traditional". But you knew that, didn't you... :D

 

Except for just a few exceptions, I just put those puzzle ones on my ignore list. Since they don't typically interest me at all, this cleans up my pages quite a bit & allows me to easier find the type of caches which I actually DO enjoy hunting.

 

But I'll stress again, there's people who enjoy them, and there is room enough in the sport for all types. But I do think that any cache which starts out with, "These coordinates are actually bogus & will do you no good", need to be in an entirely separate section than the "pure" geocaching pieces.

 

And I have actually seen some of them that are, in one way of looking at it, almost flirting with the ethics of the sport. The "bogus" coordinates listed are on private property & the puzzle-maker doesn't have permission from the landowner to use that area. Sure, he isn't ACTUALLY putting anything there, and a searcher SHOULDN'T go there anyway if he reads the instructions......but everyone doesn't do that. The coordinates given are advertising an illegal location.

 

I own close to 200 acres & am not that particular about people going onto it,as long as they respect that it IS my land. So I'd personally be tickled for a cacher to place a geo there. But I'd also like to know about it beforehand, so I'd know why all those strange people were driving through my pasture.

 

But just listing a set of coordinates out in the middle of my fields, without contacting me, with the puzzle-maker HOPING that no one actually follows those wrong coordinates.....that's stepping across the line just a bit. I've saw it go as far as the puzzle-maker actually stating, "DON'T go to these coordinates, they are on private land." In that case.....why even use them?

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But just listing a set of coordinates out in the middle of my fields, without contacting me, with the puzzle-maker HOPING that no one actually follows those wrong coordinates.....that's stepping across the line just a bit. I've saw it go as far as the puzzle-maker actually stating, "DON'T go to these coordinates, they are on private land." In that case.....why even use them?

 

I have frequently seen owners of puzzle caches use publish coordinates which point to a location where a cache could not be placed, most often in the middle of a body of water or some privately owned location. The rationale is that if one just looks at the coordinates on a map it becomes fairly clear that a cache would most likely *not* be placed at that location.

 

For example, there used to be a puzzle cache placed very close to where i live. Based on the theme, I had a pretty good idea what kind of container was holding the cache, so I went looking for it using "brute force" by searching the area near the published coordinates for a specific kind of container. When I arrived in the area I discovered that the published coordinates put me smack dab in the middle of a womens dorm hall for the local university...probably not the best place for an older gentleman to be poking around.

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Given Geocaching.com's restrictions on alcoholic beverages in caches, I don't think that any of these things can be the spirit of geocaching.

But you misunderstand. The spirit is not supposed to be in the cache, but in the cacher. It should suffuse us and fill our being.

 

I see.

 

This is the problem with being a newbie geocacher: we are not given proper instructions on how to suffuse ourselves with geocaching spirit. I really think that there should be mentoring opportunities with plenty of spirit available, as well as demonstrations on how to fill our being with geocaching spirit. The last two events I went to (a local celebration for a geocacher who'd reached 1000 finds and GW7) did not offer this at all. Clearly unbeknownst to us, the experienced geocachers had already suffused their beings with geocaching spirit leaving none for the newbies.

 

It's a scandal! Groundspeak should do something about it.

 

Carolyn

Edited by Steve&GeoCarolyn
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I've saw it go as far as the puzzle-maker actually stating, "DON'T go to these coordinates, they are on private land." In that case.....why even use them?
Yeah, that seems a bit much. If you know that the bogus coordinates for a puzzle cache are on private land, and are causing problems, then it would seem more appropriate to move the bogus coordinates a bit, than to add a warning to the cache page.

 

But a lot of puzzle caches post bogus coordinates based on the digits of the bogus coordinates, not based on what is at the bogus coordinates. For example, if the cache were located at

N 37° 25.411 W 122° 05.184

then the cache owner might post bogus coordinates like

N 37° 25.678 W 122° 05.678 or

N 37° 25.000 W 122° 05.000 or

N 37° 25.555 W 122° 05.555.

The cache owner may or may not know/care what is at the bogus coordinates, since they're bogus.

 

Around here, there are puzzle caches with bogus coordinates in the middle of the San Francisco Bay, or on Moffett Federal Airfield, and in various other unlikely locations. The only times I've heard of problems with geocachers searching at the bogus coordinates have been when the bogus coordinates pointed to a parking log or other likely P&G location.

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Creative cachers make their hides challenging by placing all sorts of obstacles between the finder and the cache. Long hikes, tricky camouflage, steep climbs, tedious stages, deep lakes, crowds of muggles, clever concealments ... and yes, difficult puzzles.

 

Are these obstacles placed in the spirit of fun, or are they put there by mean cache owners who only want to cackle insanely whenever a finder gives up? My response to that question is: Who cares? The only thing that matters is: Do you accept the challenge?

 

You seem to have a preconceived idea as to what the 'spirit of caching' means to you. That’s fine; it is good that you know what you like. Others, however, have their own ideas as to what they enjoy. In my opinion the spirit of tolerance is far more critical to the spirit of caching than is any specific form of cache hide.

 

As many others have pointed out, the arguments you use against puzzles could be used against any other type of challenge or obstacle. I just don’t see the difference. If we get rid of puzzles, then we must next begin to eliminate all the other challenges, one by one. What will we be left with then? If all caching were the same it would be very tedious indeed. Is monotonous sameness in the spirit of caching? I’m much happier with a deep and wide menu from which to choose.

 

Wise words indeed :P

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The only thing about puzzles-caches is they are placed in the "unknown" category because the starting point is not published. This is so you know you have to do something before you hit the field. That way you don't show up and it's the middle of a retention pond and you think the cache is at the bottom.

 

Don't forget Mystery caches are also placed in this category, and for these you will often go directly to the coordinates posted to begin with. It's a pity they're lumped together in the same category - if you ignore all "Unknown" caches because you don't enjoy puzzles, you risk missing out on doing some great Mystery caches.

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"I simply find it annoying that I have to waste so much time trying to solve a puzzle before

I can so much as step out the door to even start trying to find it."

 

Then don't. Just look for traditionals. There's an "ignore list" feature you can use if you don't want to see them on your closest to home page.

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if you ignore all "Unknown" caches because you don't enjoy puzzles, you risk missing out on doing some great Mystery caches.

 

What exactly is the difference? On another user's cache page, the wording by Groundspeak is

"Unknown (Mystery) Caches".

It seems to me that they're the same thing (i.e. all non-traditional, non-multi, etc., which includes puzzles and everything for which you need "to do something before you hit the field").

 

Or is one really a subset of the other and is the wording just bad?

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Given Geocaching.com's restrictions on alcoholic beverages in caches, I don't think that any of these things can be the spirit of geocaching.

But you misunderstand. The spirit is not supposed to be in the cache, but in the cacher. It should suffuse us and fill our being.

 

I see.

 

This is the problem with being a newbie geocacher: we are not given proper instructions on how to suffuse ourselves with geocaching spirit. I really think that there should be mentoring opportunities with plenty of spirit available, as well as demonstrations on how to fill our being with geocaching spirit. The last two events I went to (a local celebration for a geocacher who'd reached 1000 finds and GW7) did not offer this at all. Clearly unbeknownst to us, the experienced geocachers had already suffused their beings with geocaching spirit leaving none for the newbies.

 

It's a scandal! Groundspeak should do something about it.

 

Carolyn

 

You know, that explains a lot. I've always suspected something like that.

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if you ignore all "Unknown" caches because you don't enjoy puzzles, you risk missing out on doing some great Mystery caches.

 

What exactly is the difference? On another user's cache page, the wording by Groundspeak is

"Unknown (Mystery) Caches".

It seems to me that they're the same thing (i.e. all non-traditional, non-multi, etc., which includes puzzles and everything for which you need "to do something before you hit the field").

 

Or is one really a subset of the other and is the wording just bad?

 

It's probably that my wording is bad as you say - or at least I didn't make myself clear on what I meant.

 

There are Traditionals, Multi's, EarthCaches, Wherigo's, Virtuals, Letterboxes & even Events categories. Pretty much everything else is lumped together into "Unknown". The vast majority of these seem to be Puzzle style - where you have to solve a puzzle before you can step outside to start looking. These are the ones that annoy me (but of course other people do enjoy!). There are a number of Unknown category caches out there however which are not puzzles. For example, you are given the starting coordinates and then you answer questions along the way from information given on-site to get the final coordinates. Or they are completely, and refreshingly unique entirely. These are what I meant by Mystery caches - basically any Unknown caches that aren't puzzles (the terminology probably isn't correct - but that's what I meant) :blink:

 

My point is that not all Unknown caches have bogus starting coordinates. And that perhaps Puzzle caches deserve a category all to themselves due to the overwhelming number of them (at least around here). A puzzle by definition would have bogus coordinates listed, and a puzzle must be solved before the true coordinates can be revealed. It would also then be easy to filter out any puzzles only if you were that way inclined.

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For example, you are given the starting coordinates and then you answer questions along the way from information given on-site to get the final coordinates.

Over here they are listed as multistages, though I've seen them listed as unknown in other places.

 

I've seen caches like that published both as unknowns and as multi caches (in one case the starting coordinates for two different cachers were just across the road from each other. The primary difference between these two caches was that for the muli, all one needed do was read some numbers off of an object or count the number of objects to obtain the correct digits, but for the unknown caches one needed to translate words on a plaque to digits using a variation on the cipher in National Treasure. IMHO, if you've got to do more than basic arithmetic to obtain the digits (i.e. use the third digit on the grave marker, count the number of rocks) it should be an unknown.

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For example, you are given the starting coordinates and then you answer questions along the way from information given on-site to get the final coordinates.

Over here they are listed as multistages, though I've seen them listed as unknown in other places.

 

Same here and it's a good way IMO to indicate that you have to go to various places rather than turn to the tubes of the internets or noggin (pre hunt) for your solution. Sometimes there is a combo of the two and that always falls into the unknown there. However anything that is basic wander around, answer questions tends to be (here) a multi. And the sometimes one, sometimes the other are those that dont require prior prep but do require figuring something out en route. I guess we could keep subdividing the types of caches but at some point you get diminishing returns. I'd rather see other delineations (history type cache perhaps) than separation of the unknown from the mystery.

 

(chrysalides: just quoted you for the first bit of my response and wasn't addressing the last few sentences to your post - or any post - specifically but instead was ruminating about the issue... just fyi :) )

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When someone says "The spirit X", I think they mean the essence or essential feature of X. For me the spirit of geocaching was the connection between hider and finder. Some hiders simply want to connect with people who share their interest in puzzles. Either that or they want to weed out stupid people. :)

 

I remember when people put messages in a bottle of helium balloon to connect. Geocahing is a high tech message in a bottle, to me.

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I remember when people put messages in a bottle of helium balloon to connect. Geocahing is a high tech message in a bottle, to me.

 

Good analogy, but there's more to it. Geocaching sends a message to a specific (yet ever-growing) community. For me, I enjoy the local spirit of geocaching (the local jokes, stories, events, going on geodates, etc.) at least as much as I do the global spirit.

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I remember when people put messages in a bottle of helium balloon to connect. Geocahing is a high tech message in a bottle, to me.

 

Good analogy, but there's more to it. Geocaching sends a message to a specific (yet ever-growing) community. For me, I enjoy the local spirit of geocaching (the local jokes, stories, events, going on geodates, etc.) at least as much as I do the global spirit.

I look at it as the finder/hider connections can grow into friendships and groups. Facebook and Twitter are one way connections. As you point out, geocaching is more.
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