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Are puzzle caches really in the spirit of geocaching?


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Geocaching is just hide and seek. Hide and seek is A kid's game... Right?

 

Adding a puzzle creates another level of fun for those that get bored with the same old hide and seek. But in the end it's still just hide and seek.

 

As a cache owner, a puzzle cuts down on my need to do maintenance due to the fact that fewer folks will hunt it. I like getting finds, but I like ease of maintenance even more.

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I simply find it annoying that I have to waste so much time trying to solve a puzzle before

I can so much as step out the door to even start trying to find it.

 

You don't have to waste your precious time. You are a free being. Just don't seek them.

Edited by Userzero
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I'm trying to call a image to my mind of a spiritually challenging cache, but nothing is entering.

For me, facing your fears is entering spiritual territory. One of my night caches puts you nipple deep in an alligator & venomous snake infested swamp. This kind of environment is right up my alley, and even I was nervous building it and escorting others through it. In my opinion, that is a fairly spiritual journey.

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I don't agree. In my opinion I feel that puzzle caches are very much is the spirit of the game, it is just a different flavor. There are a number of them that I have given up on and have ignore listed, but I have enjoyed quite a few of them. I think of it like a sense of accomplishment similar to Indiana Jones or Ben Gates (from National Treasure) solving a puzzle and discovering the treasure.

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I don't agree. In my opinion I feel that puzzle caches are very much is the spirit of the game, it is just a different flavor. There are a number of them that I have given up on and have ignore listed, but I have enjoyed quite a few of them. I think of it like a sense of accomplishment similar to Indiana Jones or Ben Gates (from National Treasure) solving a puzzle and discovering the treasure.

 

You make a very good point!C

Edited by bittsen
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For what it is worth, I don't do puzzle caches because they put me in some sort of elite. (I didn't even know that they did. At least not anymore than kayak puzzles put NYPaddleCacher in an elite since he also does caches that few people do.) I do them because they are fun. The harder they are the more of a sense of accomplishment I have at the end. I feel the same after doing a cache in a terrain that challenges my abilities or finding a well-camouflaged cache.

 

I'm mystified as to why doing any of these things should be seen as elitist.

 

Carolyn

 

So you're saying that there are people out there who actually enjoy doing puzzles. They set these ridiculously hard puzzles not just to show how clever they are, but for other like-minded cachers who actually enjoy them too (for whatever reason). And they like trying to solve them simply because it challenges them and is fun. Your analogy to the kayak style caches is a good one.

 

This is good stuff - I am beginning to understand (although I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy puzzles!). OK, point taken thanks Carolyn - strike out the elitism aspect to it

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This is good stuff - I am beginning to understand (although I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy puzzles!).
That's okay. I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy being "nipple deep in an alligator & venomous snake infested swamp"...
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This is good stuff - I am beginning to understand (although I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy puzzles!).
That's okay. I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy being "nipple deep in an alligator & venomous snake infested swamp"...

 

Are you kidding? These are just the sort of caches I live for!!

 

Just goes to show how different we can be huh? And helps me appreciate that, yeah OK, maybe there are some genuine puzzle lovers out there who actually enjoy those nasty things.

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For what it is worth, I don't do puzzle caches because they put me in some sort of elite. (I didn't even know that they did. At least not anymore than kayak puzzles put NYPaddleCacher in an elite since he also does caches that few people do.) I do them because they are fun. The harder they are the more of a sense of accomplishment I have at the end. I feel the same after doing a cache in a terrain that challenges my abilities or finding a well-camouflaged cache.

 

I'm mystified as to why doing any of these things should be seen as elitist.

 

Carolyn

 

So you're saying that there are people out there who actually enjoy doing puzzles. They set these ridiculously hard puzzles not just to show how clever they are, but for other like-minded cachers who actually enjoy them too (for whatever reason). And they like trying to solve them simply because it challenges them and is fun. Your analogy to the kayak style caches is a good one.

 

This is good stuff - I am beginning to understand (although I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy puzzles!). OK, point taken thanks Carolyn - strike out the elitism aspect to it

 

This... well 95% of it at least (struck out the bit that I disagreed with!). I like puzzles and I make puzzles because I know a lot of people in my area (or at least an active segment of our local caching community) like em too. They design tough ones that I may or may not find and I do the same. I think, at least where I live, that it's all about constantly providing others a fun challenge. Additionally, we are blessed to live in a place where our cache final locations can be in scenic spots involving nice hikes and still don't even come close to bumping into saturation problems. I guess we're lucky with the legacy of the intentional geographical isolation that the original manhattan project needed!

 

edit: forgot to actually strike out the bit I wanted.

 

Also wanted to say that I really appreciate the respectful tone that guanogerbil set and maintained throughout the thread :(

Edited by mrbort
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Just goes to show how different we can be huh? And helps me appreciate that, yeah OK, maybe there are some genuine puzzle lovers out there who actually enjoy those nasty things.

After so many posts, you still have to qualify it with "maybe"? :(

 

I guess I only exist as a cloud of probability. Actually, come to think of it, that might explain some things...

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Just goes to show how different we can be huh? And helps me appreciate that, yeah OK, maybe there are some genuine puzzle lovers out there who actually enjoy those nasty things.

After so many posts, you still have to qualify it with "maybe"? :(

 

I guess I only exist as a cloud of probability. Actually, come to think of it, that might explain some things...

 

Ah, well if you lived where Mr. Bort lives, you would know with the certainty of Schroedinger's Cat that you exist within a cloud of probability.

 

Carolyn

 

P.S. Wouldn't it be fun to have a Schroedinger's Cat Cache? (Making notes for future puzzles.)

 

P.P.S. I also appreciate GuanoGerbil's respectful contributions to our conversation.

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This is good stuff - I am beginning to understand (although I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy puzzles!).
That's okay. I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy being "nipple deep in an alligator & venomous snake infested swamp"...

 

At night! Don't forget, it's in an alligator and snake infested swamp AT NIGHT!!

 

I don't know about anyone else, but at night an armadillo can sound like a monstrous creature out to eat me. Alligators and poisonous snakes are beyond the pale. :(

 

Carolyn

Edited by Steve&GeoCarolyn
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There have been many threads about whether something is "in the spirit" of Geocaching. Which in turn, evolves into what is the spirit of Geocaching? Originally, it was a five gallon bucket hidden by one person and found by someone else. It evolved into hiding many different sized containers from a BB to a house. Then came the virtual caches, and then the multi caches, and then the puzzle caches. There are Web Cam caches, and benchmark caches. There are earth caches and underwater caches. Caches are basically limited to the imagination of the hider.

 

As for the topic here, PUZZLE CACHES, I can see both sides. Sometimes, a puzzle cache is extremely fun and satisfying to complete. On the other hand, some puzzle caches are created for the SOLE PURPOSE of frustrating the cache finder. To me, this falls into the category of posting 'bad' coordinates, not archiving a missing cache and not having a cache placed at all. The goal should be to still have cachers find the cache. If you do not want folks to find it, then what is the point?

 

The one thing that does bother me is the "PAT" response, "If you don't like them, don't do them." This is not the point of the discussion nor does it answer any question. Are puzzle caches in the spirit of geocaching? Yes, here is why. No, here is why. When you post "If you don't like them, don't do them", what you are really saying is "sit down and shut up." THAT is not in the spirit of GEOCACHING! :(

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Ah, well if you lived where Mr. Bort lives, you would know with the certainty of Schroedinger's Cat that you exist within a cloud of probability.

 

P.S. Wouldn't it be fun to have a Schroedinger's Cat Cache? (Making notes for future puzzles.)

Wouldn't that be "know with a high degree of probability"? :(

 

As for the puzzle cache, did a quick search...

 

Schrodingers Cat(che)

 

Schrödinger's Cache

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I remember when I was told by one cacher that solving a puzzle would be easy if I added trigonometry to my basic list of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. But at some point in my caching experience I came to the conclusion that if wanted to learn programming skills, I would have taken it at the university. And that following obscure bits of code, images that require special tools, learning advanced navigation, watching dvds of kids movies, and keeping up with various people's leaps of logic or faith was beginning to feel more like work than like fun. So my ignore list is getting bigger and bigger -- but since some people actually enjoy these things and the spirit of caching is to have fun, then more power to them.

 

There are some puzzles that I actually might want to do, but like finding a cache, if it is going to take too much time, then I move on. Although I suppose that if people can have puzzles, I would feel better if I could have new virtuals and locationless as part of the game. So the spirit of caching seems to be what you enjoy doing and what the powers that be at Groundspeak decide is appropriate.

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The one thing that does bother me is the "PAT" response, "If you don't like them, don't do them." This is not the point of the discussion nor does it answer any question. Are puzzle caches in the spirit of geocaching? Yes, here is why. No, here is why. When you post "If you don't like them, don't do them", what you are really saying is "sit down and shut up." THAT is not in the spirit of GEOCACHING! :(

Point taken. I'll save that response for the "I hate xxxx type of geocache" posts.

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This is good stuff - I am beginning to understand (although I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy puzzles!).
That's okay. I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy being "nipple deep in an alligator & venomous snake infested swamp"...

 

At night! Don't forget, it's in an alligator and snake infested swamp AT NIGHT!!

 

I don't know about anyone else, but at night an armadillo can sound like a monstrous creature out to eat me. Alligators and poisonous snakes are beyond the pale. :(

 

Carolyn

 

I know! It sounds just so crazy that it's just GOT to be fun!

It's only a pity we don't have alligators and poisionous snakes down here, or I'd be planning my next cache hide now :D

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On the other hand, some puzzle caches are created for the SOLE PURPOSE of frustrating the cache finder. To me, this falls into the category of posting 'bad' coordinates, not archiving a missing cache and not having a cache placed at all.

The reason for the puzzle is to add a challenge, not to prevent people from finding the cache. This is nothing like the other examples you give, and adding a puzzle is no different from placing the cache in a terrain where few people will go. Each method adds a challenge, and different people will rise to different challenges.

 

The one thing that does bother me is the "PAT" response, "If you don't like them, don't do them." This is not the point of the discussion nor does it answer any question. Are puzzle caches in the spirit of geocaching? Yes, here is why. No, here is why. When you post "If you don't like them, don't do them", what you are really saying is "sit down and shut up." THAT is not in the spirit of GEOCACHING! :(

As one of the ones who used a similar form of words I'm obliged to respond because you've completely misunderstood. Surely the "spirit of geocaching" is to have fun and feel like you've achieved something. Each of us has his or her own concept of what sort of caches will fulfil those objectives and we will therefore seek out those caches while ignoring the ones which we know or suspect we will not enjoy. I'm quite happy to sit down and solve a puzzle before going for a pleasant walk in the woods; a trad in an alligator-infested swamp (not that there are too many of those in England) would be ignored as soon as it was published.

 

Excluding the opening sentence of the above paragraph, I used ninety-nine words. I could have used the more succinct eight word phrase: "If you don't like them, don't do them". That does not mean "sit down and shut up".

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On the other hand, some puzzle caches are created for the SOLE PURPOSE of frustrating the cache finder. To me, this falls into the category of posting 'bad' coordinates, not archiving a missing cache and not having a cache placed at all.

The reason for the puzzle is to add a challenge, not to prevent people from finding the cache. This is nothing like the other examples you give, and adding a puzzle is no different from placing the cache in a terrain where few people will go. Each method adds a challenge, and different people will rise to different challenges.

 

I don't quite agree with all of this statement. A puzzle simply makes what would normally be a (usually) easily found cache, more difficult to find. It therefore makes what could normally be a well visited cache, much less visited. This is done intentionally by the owner. The main focus of this sort of cache is in the puzzle itself - the container and position usually play a much less important part.

 

A high terrain cache however is not expected to get many visits due to the difficulty of access. The intention of the owner is to encourage people to the cache, and the often outstanding locations in which they are hidden. Sometimes of course, you get the odd sicko out there :( who hides caches in difficult places just for the hell of it. These sorts of caches are often the most fun of all (well to some of us!).

 

As you have said "Each method adds a challenge, and different people will rise to different challenges" - yeah for sure!

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I don't quite agree with all of this statement.

Well of course you don't. You prefer your challenges to be physical rather than mental, and that's just fine. I have no strong preference either way: I'll attempt any cache which seems to be within my mental and physical capabilities and which I may enjoy. I don't decry cachers for placing a cache in an alligator-infested swamp, nor do I decry cachers who require me to solve a puzzle before leaving home. Unashamedly, I repeat the phrase "If you don't like them, don't do them".

 

The purpose of the puzzle is to provide an extra challenge. The purpose of the high terrain caches you prefer are to provide an extra challenge. There is no substantive difference between the fact of these or the reason for introducing the challenge. Cachers are constantly looking for ways to make it harder for people to find their caches: puzzles and difficult terrain are two ways to achieve that. Sure, some puzzle solutions lead to drive-by caches; some, however, lead to more challenges which can be either physical or mental. In other words, puzzle caches are just like every other cache: there are "good" ones and there are "bad" ones.

 

If puzzle caches were banned - and I know you're not suggesting that they should be - then for less physically able people like me there would be little left in caching as a challenge. I would find caching very boring if all the caches I could do were a simple walk in the woods to the usual pile of sticks.

 

Let's keep the variety. Groundspeak has already removed many cache types which, whether one liked them or not, added to the variety of caches and therefore to the options available. Let's not make puzzles the next to go just because a vociferous few don't want to solve them or think that puzzles aren't in the "spirit of geocaching".

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Hi,

I like puzzle caches - when I can work them out. :)

Actually I've got a number of them that I've enjoyed working out the co-ordinates and not had the chance to go check. On a wet and cold day they're better than cross-words. I'd say not in the spirit of geocaching, but what the heck - I enjoy the challenge. If I can't work them out - what's it matter. I'm still working on "Number 23" :D Any hints? :(

Cheers,

Dan

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Just out of interest - since it's unlikely I'll ever go there - I had a look at some of the puzzle caches around Hamilton, NZ. I picked a few at random and just from those and a few minutes' research I learned about New Zealand's official languages; a cipher I hadn't previously seen; that Sir Edmund Hillary was a New Zealander (yes, I did know that but had forgotten - I probably won't forget again); about the life of Charles Upham; and that the term "and bar" means that the medal has been bestowed multiple times. I find that fascinating. And as a bonus I solved the cache puzzles along the way :(.

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A puzzle simply makes what would normally be a (usually) easily found cache, more difficult to find. It therefore makes what could normally be a well visited cache, much less visited. This is done intentionally by the owner. The main focus of this sort of cache is in the puzzle itself - the container and position usually play a much less important part.

 

I don't know that it is reasonable to universalize Snoogan's statement of his reasons for hiding puzzle caches while completely ignoring MrBort's. People hide puzzle caches for a variety of reasons. It is not always to reduce the number of visitors. In fact, given the quickness with which most puzzle cache owners provide hints it seems to me that most puzzle cache owners want visitors to their caches.

 

I am working on three caches, one of which will be the first cache I publish. The cache that draws me most is the puzzle cache. I keep putting it away and scolding myself because I know it means fewer people will find it. Not that this works because I wake up excited with another good idea for it. So this cache is developing despite myself. The second is a Wherigo, which will get even fewer people. (Another cache I keep working on despite a strong sense of futility.) For the third I've written Traditional Cache in big letters in my journal to try to bend my mind away from caches I enjoy to creating a cache that people will actually visit. I would like to place caches that I enjoy and I would like people to visit the cache I set. But, the caches that draw a lot of people (urban micros, gas station caches, highway rest stop caches, etc.) are not appealing to me. So I am in a dilemma. Whether it is generally true, as you claim, that puzzle cache owners' intentions are to ensure that their caches will not be often found, that doesn't apply to me.

 

Most of the people on this forum who state unambiguously that they want to limit visitors to their caches (presumably to the most worthy cachers who will write good logs) are those who hide their caches in difficult terrain or require a long hike, a boat, or a technical rock climb. So your statement below is obviously incorrect:

 

A high terrain cache however is not expected to get many visits due to the difficulty of access. The intention of the owner is to encourage people to the cache, and the often outstanding locations in which they are hidden.

 

One intention of the cache owner who hides in difficult terrain may be to bring people to an outstanding location, but another motive is clearly to reduce traffic to the cache.

 

Carolyn

Edited by Steve&GeoCarolyn
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I'm trying to call a image to my mind of a spiritually challenging cache, but nothing is entering.

For me, facing your fears is entering spiritual territory. One of my night caches puts you nipple deep in an alligator & venomous snake infested swamp. This kind of environment is right up my alley, and even I was nervous building it and escorting others through it. In my opinion, that is a fairly spiritual journey.

 

I've been giving this some thought. I am not a very spiritual person so realize that my understanding is limited by that fact. However, facing fears is not something that I previously thought of as spiritual. Quite the opposite, in fact. From what I can tell people cling to the spiritual when they are in distress and their spiritual beliefs give them comfort, a safe haven to go to in their minds. Or they enter the spiritual (churches, meditation, prayer) to find peace when the rest of the world is jangling and stressful.

 

However, I think that what you are describing does have literary antecedents. So are you thinking of this in the Joseph Campbell kind of way in which the hero purposely goes down into darkness and evil to plumb the depths and returns the land of light substantially changed?

 

Carolyn

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For me, puzzles are definitely in the spirit of geocaching. I like to maximize the amount of fun per cache. I would rather spend 10 hours on one cache then find 10 caches in one hour. A puzzle can involve weeks or months of effort making the find that much more rewarding. Say 20 caches are published on the same day and 2 are puzzles... As much as I love FTFs, I'm working on the puzzles.

 

One point that has been made is that a puzzle will reduce the traffic to a cache. While this may be true *some* or even *most* of the time, it is not always the case. An intriguing puzzle can actually *increase* the traffic to a high-terrain cache. In some scenarios cachers will walk past a dozen "quality" caches to find one puzzle cache.

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A puzzle simply makes what would normally be a (usually) easily found cache, more difficult to find. It therefore makes what could normally be a well visited cache, much less visited. This is done intentionally by the owner. The main focus of this sort of cache is in the puzzle itself - the container and position usually play a much less important part.

 

Most of the people on this forum who state unambiguously that they want to limit visitors to their caches (presumably to the most worthy cachers who will write good logs) are those who hide their caches in difficult terrain or require a long hike, a boat, or a technical rock climb. So your statement below is obviously incorrect:

 

A high terrain cache however is not expected to get many visits due to the difficulty of access. The intention of the owner is to encourage people to the cache, and the often outstanding locations in which they are hidden.

 

One intention of the cache owner who hides in difficult terrain may be to bring people to an outstanding location, but another motive is clearly to reduce traffic to the cache.

 

Carolyn

 

You've misunderstood me Carolyn. I don't believe the majority of puzzle owners add a puzzle element with the intention of reducing the number of people to their cache. By adding a puzzle, they have intentionally made the cache more difficult to find, with the resulting effect of less people visiting it.

 

You have got my second quote wrong completely. It is exactly as I have stated. I don't believe difficult terrain caches are ever created with the intention of reducing the amount of traffic. They can either be created for the physical challenge involved (in which case you want as many people as possible to push their normal comfort zone and challenge themselves physically) or they are hidden in outstanding locations which more often than not just happen to be difficult places to get to (in which case you want as many people as possible to go there to appreciate the places that they may otherwise never see). Due to the terrain rating, you can't expect many people to visit, but it would be nice if they did! :D

 

I can't understand why some people out there would want to limit the amount of traffic to their cache - why hide it in the first place?

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If puzzle caches were banned - and I know you're not suggesting that they should be - then for less physically able people like me there would be little left in caching as a challenge. I would find caching very boring if all the caches I could do were a simple walk in the woods to the usual pile of sticks.

 

 

You raise a very good point - I hadn't thought of that! Yes we all need to challenge ourselves in different ways.

 

BTW, any clues you can give me on some of the local puzzles around here you've solved already? :D I am very impressed!

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I can't understand why some people out there would want to limit the amount of traffic to their cache - why hide it in the first place?

 

I like puzzles. I like all kinds of puzzles, be they the kind where you visit the site to gather information, or the kind where you have to solve them at home. In fact, I prefer puzzle caches to traditional caches. I go out of my way to seek out puzzle caches. They are a draw for me. For example, if I'm vacationing in an area, or know that I'm passing through, I'll see what puzzles are there ahead of time and solve them before I make the trip. Most traditionals in an area, well, they're a dime a dozen. But a puzzle, well, now I'm interested to see what the CO can come up with. And I can't solve them all either. One the closest puzzles I haven't solved yet has been taunting me for months. I don't even know where to start with that one.

 

Not all COs put out puzzles to deter visitors. Some put them out to draw visitors. Give cachers something different to hunt.

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I'm not keen on puzzle caches, but I'll attempt them because I like the satisfaction of solving them.

 

What really got me was a cache I did in Great Yarmouth recently. Up until this point I've been used to puzzle caches based on what you find at the coords (e.g. what year was the statue erected?) but this one in Yarmouth turned out to be one you had to research on google at home first! The CO had NOT specified this in the description. :D

 

We eventually figured out the location from the hint and previous logs, but up until then I thought all puzzle caches were based 'in the field' so I was a little ticked off.

 

Having said that, I'm tempted to create a puzzle cache based on research first (I like the idea based on a movie) but if I do I will most certainly mention at the beginning of the description that research needs to be done at home - I think that it is important to specify this.

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I love the easy puzzle caches.. I have solved two this week.. it involved looking for the answer to questions you could ONLY get at a certain site and answering the questions gave your the coordinates to the cache. They both were fun and my son and I learned something about local history. That to me is everything geocaching is about for experaincing something you would not have experainced with out the cache.

 

Now hard puzzles speak a different language that I don't understand.. I will ether learn that language or forgo them. No big loss but i know others LOVE them.

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I'm not keen on puzzle caches, but I'll attempt them because I like the satisfaction of solving them.

 

What really got me was a cache I did in Great Yarmouth recently. Up until this point I've been used to puzzle caches based on what you find at the coords (e.g. what year was the statue erected?) but this one in Yarmouth turned out to be one you had to research on google at home first! The CO had NOT specified this in the description. :D

 

We eventually figured out the location from the hint and previous logs, but up until then I thought all puzzle caches were based 'in the field' so I was a little ticked off.

 

Having said that, I'm tempted to create a puzzle cache based on research first (I like the idea based on a movie) but if I do I will most certainly mention at the beginning of the description that research needs to be done at home - I think that it is important to specify this.

 

Typically, if one must solve a puzzle before attempting a cache, the CO posts **NOT AT THE POST COORDINATES**. This lets cachers know that they must solve it first before attempting. I agree that a puzzle cache that doesn't state "Not at the post coords" is a big no no.

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Compare:

 

I don't believe the majority of puzzle owners add a puzzle element with the intention of reducing the number of people to their cache. By adding a puzzle, they have intentionally made the cache more difficult to find, with the resulting effect of less people visiting it.
I don't believe the majority of high-terrain cache owners add a high-terrain element with the intention of reducing the number of people to their cache. By adding a high-terrain element, they have intentionally made the cache more difficult to find, with the resulting effect of less people visiting it.

Can you not see that those two statements are identical in the effect they have on the difficulty of the cache and therefore on the traffic? Both of those strategies are to provide a challenge, and I cannot understand why you see them as different, let alone why you see the first as "bad" and the second as "good".

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BTW, any clues you can give me on some of the local puzzles around here you've solved already?

I'm sure the cache owners would be more than happy to give hints. Contrary to what you think, they do want the cache to be found.

 

The few I chose at random were Francis's Cipher, Official Language, and National Treasures.

 

The last requires more work on site once the initial puzzle is solved and it looks to be a very good puzzle and cache: shame it's 18,000km away from me. The first two were very easy. So easy that I see you've already found them. In fact, I'm amused to see that despite your alleged hatred of puzzles 37 of your 542 finds are of Mystery caches so you can't really hate them that much :D.

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Compare:

 

I don't believe the majority of puzzle owners add a puzzle element with the intention of reducing the number of people to their cache. By adding a puzzle, they have intentionally made the cache more difficult to find, with the resulting effect of less people visiting it.
I don't believe the majority of high-terrain cache owners add a high-terrain element with the intention of reducing the number of people to their cache. By adding a high-terrain element, they have intentionally made the cache more difficult to find, with the resulting effect of less people visiting it.

Can you not see that those two statements are identical in the effect they have on the difficulty of the cache and therefore on the traffic? Both of those strategies are to provide a challenge, and I cannot understand why you see them as different, let alone why you see the first as "bad" and the second as "good".

 

The point I was trying to make is that most difficult terrain caches are necessarily difficult. The cache may be hidden at the top of a mountain, or at a spectacular waterfall deep in the bush for example. They are difficult places to get to, hence the high terrain rating. The cacher wants to get people to visit these beautiful places, but there is simply no easy way there. He does not seek out these places merely because they are challenging to get to - instead, they just happen to be that way. With mountaineering for example, you get to see the most gob-smackingly beautiful places imaginable, and it's a real shame that more people simply will never see these places. But the ones that are a little more accessible are definately worthy of a cache so I can share these special places with those who wouldn't normally go there.

 

A puzzle cache on the other hand is made difficult to find intentionally by the owner. It could be a simple find, but they have made it more difficult for the sake of it.

 

Granted, some high terrain caches would fit into the same catagory as you're alluding to with puzzles - whereby they have been created with a high terrain intentionally by the owner. 'The Worlds Worst Tramp' (GC1MR5F) would be a good example. OK, I get your point - I can't disagree with you there! :D

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So easy that I see you've already found them. In fact, I'm amused to see that despite your alleged hatred of puzzles 37 of your 542 finds are of Mystery caches so you can't really hate them that much ;).

 

Are you kidding? Most of the Mystery caches I've found were just that - Mystery caches. The few puzzles I've found were very easy which matched my puny puzzle solving abilities. There are heaps more of them scattered all about town which I simply don't have the time, the patience or the inclination to even try.

 

If the owners of these puzzles really wanted people to find them (and I'm playing devils advocate here...), then how would they feel if I just emailed them and said I don't like puzzles, but I want to find their cache - can you just give me the coordinates?

The high terrain equivilent of this was actually done on a cache deep in the bush. It involved (according to the owner) a minimum of 3 days walk to find the cache and return. The FTF'ers flew in by helicopter! Probably not quite what the owner had in mind, but it was all very amusing and done in good humour. The next person claimed FTF by foot. I claimed FTF by foot in a day - got to love those challenges... :D

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A puzzle cache on the other hand is made difficult to find intentionally by the owner. It could be a simple find, but they have made it more difficult for the sake of it.

 

 

One could also interpret this as a difficult puzzle provides a means for creating a challenging find when you happen to live in an area that doesn't have a lot of tall mountains and remote areas open to the public. The implication here is that not all finds need to be simple, and a puzzle provides the means to create a challenging cache when you don't have the luxury of having remote spots to place to place a cache (which would only increase the terrain rating anyway).

 

Personally, I would much rather solve a challenging puzzle to find a cache with a 4+ difficulty rating that search for a 4+ traditional that earned it's rating because it was a needle in a haystack.

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I think our differences are largely due to our different locations and experiences. Here in southern England there aren't many mountains :D and, although there are many gob-smackingly beautiful places they are also mostly easy to get to. So a cache in such areas, while being rated higher in terrain than a drive-by in a car park, won't often merit a 4-5* just for the terrain alone.

 

So what cachers do is to look for ways to extend the challenge artificially. If they want it to be a phyiscal challenge then they'll put the cache under a bridge where climbing techniques are required, or up a cliff face where climbing equipment and experience are necessary, or underwater where diving equipment and experience are necessary. In other words, they've made the cache "difficult to find intentionally". A puzzle achieves the same effect, also intentionally.

 

The only difference between the two methods is in the skills required. A physical cache necessarily and deliberately excludes all those who are incapable of the physical effort, whether by age, disability, or a simple desire not to risk life and limb in pursuit of a cache. A puzzle, however, is open to anyone with the time and inclination to put in the necessary mental effort. And the cache owner will usually give hints if you get stuck.

 

Note that I do not argue that physical challenges are not in the "spirit of geocaching". If I can do them, I do; if I can't, I don't. Just like puzzles ;).

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Are you kidding? Most of the Mystery caches I've found were just that - Mystery caches. The few puzzles I've found were very easy which matched my puny puzzle solving abilities. There are heaps more of them scattered all about town which I simply don't have the time, the patience or the inclination to even try.

I don't want to labour the point, but I wonder if we have a different interpretation of "puzzle"? The last five Mystery caches you've found (I didn't go any further) are all of the type I'd describe as being a puzzle. That is, where you have to do research at home to determine the location of the cache or the real start point. Sure, there are easy puzzles and there are hard puzzles; just as there are easy terrain and hard terrain caches.

 

I'm getting the impression that it isn't puzzle caches per se that you object to, but rather puzzles caches which you can't solve :D. I can see only around 40 Mystery caches in the Hamilton area. Can you give me examples of some you "don't have the time, the patience or the inclination to even try"?

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A puzzle cache on the other hand is made difficult to find intentionally by the owner. It could be a simple find, but they have made it more difficult for the sake of it.

 

 

One could also interpret this as a difficult puzzle provides a means for creating a challenging find when you happen to live in an area that doesn't have a lot of tall mountains and remote areas open to the public. The implication here is that not all finds need to be simple, and a puzzle provides the means to create a challenging cache when you don't have the luxury of having remote spots to place to place a cache (which would only increase the terrain rating anyway).

 

Personally, I would much rather solve a challenging puzzle to find a cache with a 4+ difficulty rating that search for a 4+ traditional that earned it's rating because it was a needle in a haystack.

 

Ditto that. It's very flat in FL and where I am, it's very populated. So there aren't mountains, there aren't a lot of parks with neat, beautiful hikes etc etc. The only place that's not populated (yet) is The Everglades and I can't quite get myself to go out and do the Watch For Snakes series yet. :unsure:

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I'm getting the impression that it isn't puzzle caches per se that you object to, but rather puzzles caches which you can't solve :unsure:. I can see only around 40 Mystery caches in the Hamilton area. Can you give me examples of some you "don't have the time, the patience or the inclination to even try"?

 

I've got a list of 22 purely puzzle caches hanging around town which I haven't done yet. These all fit into that catagory. It annoys me whenever yet another one pops up.

 

You're probably right about the puzzles I can't solve. I don't mind the idea of puzzle caches if they are basically token puzzles - very obvious (but then what would be the point I hear you say!). What I don't like is having to spend a lot of time researching to solve them. I would much rather be outdoors actively finding them, which, in my mind, is what it's supposed to all be about.

 

But that's just me - I understand that now. This thread has been very enlightening and I now feel much better about the whole concept of puzzles (even if I still hate them!).

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These may be seen as a challenge to the hardcores, but sometimes to me they smack of elitism.
Everyone of us was placed on this earth with a different set of skills. Some climb mountains, some have the stamina for a numbers run, some can swim, dive or pilot a helipcopter.

 

And some can solve puzzles.

 

Most of my puzzles (and many of my hides) are hard, some of the dadgum hard. I'm proud of the fact that several cachers have held several of my containers in their hand and put it back and logged a DNF, and I'm proud of the cachers who solve my puzzles. At events, I buy them beer. If that makes it elitist, well, so be it, but is a good club, especially with beer.

 

What's my goal? I want to make a puzzle that is so hard, but solvable, that very few every solve it. Not crazy stupid hard, like a fake rock in rock pile, but hard in that persistence and the very few subtle clues I drop make it possible.

 

There are so many lamp post caches out there, too many ammo cans under a big pile of sticks, I think that there is room for some creativity, and yes, even elitist caches.

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These may be seen as a challenge to the hardcores, but sometimes to me they smack of elitism.

Most of my puzzles (and many of my hides) are hard, some of the dadgum hard. I'm proud of the fact that several cachers have held several of my containers in their hand and put it back and logged a DNF, and I'm proud of the cachers who solve my puzzles. At events, I buy them beer. If that makes it elitist, well, so be it, but is a good club, especially with beer.

 

 

Well that's not fair. It's the puzzle caches that make me crave a beer the most. :unsure:

Edited by Boneman65
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This post should ruffle a few feathers...

 

I like the puzzle caches, because it is a mental challenge as well. Some around here deal with history, so you learn as you get the coordinates, and others are real hard. I am currently working on two puzzle caches.

You always have an option to do the puzzle or not to. Is it in the the "geocaching spirit?" I believe so.

But then its just my opinion.

guesstimate

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I don't care for them. I like "pure" geocaching, like it started with in 2000....pick up a GPS unit, find some coordinates & maybe a good hint if it's really hidden well, then go get it. Some puzzles don't even need a GPS. To me, that's an entirely different game. More of a treasure hunt than geocaching.

 

That being said, if some people like placing them & others like finding them, there's room enough for both. I do think that many puzzles need an entirely separate section of their own however. It's very irritating to be loading up a set of caches for a weekend whirlwind, then find one that says, "This cache is no where near these coordinates. Search these coordinates up in Google, click the 3rd most popular link on the page, thenfind the longest word on that page. Decrypt it using my formula here & that will tell you which hous number you need to start in front of. Drive north & look for the big tree"

 

That's not my idea of "geocaching".

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These may be seen as a challenge to the hardcores, but sometimes to me they smack of elitism.
Everyone of us was placed on this earth with a different set of skills. Some climb mountains, some have the stamina for a numbers run, some can swim, dive or pilot a helipcopter.

 

And some can solve puzzles.

 

Most of my puzzles (and many of my hides) are hard, some of the dadgum hard. I'm proud of the fact that several cachers have held several of my containers in their hand and put it back and logged a DNF, and I'm proud of the cachers who solve my puzzles. At events, I buy them beer. If that makes it elitist, well, so be it, but is a good club, especially with beer.

 

What's my goal? I want to make a puzzle that is so hard, but solvable, that very few every solve it. Not crazy stupid hard, like a fake rock in rock pile, but hard in that persistence and the very few subtle clues I drop make it possible.

 

There are so many lamp post caches out there, too many ammo cans under a big pile of sticks, I think that there is room for some creativity, and yes, even elitist caches.

 

Since I am one of the few that has solved (despite the glitch in the puzzle which I discovered) and found Lorem Ipsum does that mean I can expect a beer next time I get to the cape (though I have no immediate plans to visit the area? My preferences lean towards Belgian style golden ales and Saison (farm house) beers.

 

BTW, I thought you're approach to providing hints was unique and entertaining.

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It's very irritating to be loading up a set of caches for a weekend whirlwind, then find one that says, "This cache is no where near these coordinates. Search these coordinates up in Google, click the 3rd most popular link on the page, thenfind the longest word on that page. Decrypt it using my formula here & that will tell you which hous number you need to start in front of. Drive north & look for the big tree"

 

That's not my idea of "geocaching".

It isn't Groundspeak's idea of geocaching either.

GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

You can avoid the irritation by not downloading caches of type "Unknown". From your description of your preferences, you probably want only caches of type "Traditional". But you knew that, didn't you... :unsure:

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The one thing that does bother me is the "PAT" response, "If you don't like them, don't do them." This is not the point of the discussion nor does it answer any question. Are puzzle caches in the spirit of geocaching? Yes, here is why. No, here is why. When you post "If you don't like them, don't do them", what you are really saying is "sit down and shut up." THAT is not in the spirit of GEOCACHING! :D

I disagree. I think it is a helpful and constructive suggestion, and I have never seen it presented as anything less.

 

Folks wade into these forums on a fairly regular basis with their pet dislikes. It’s always something. They gripe about their dislike, usually while calling for varying degrees of 'improvement' intended to modify the entire worldwide game of Geocaching in order to make it more to their individual liking. Sometimes, as with this thread, they politely suggest that "X needs to be reevaluated;" other times they demand outright that "X needs to be banned." There is everything else in between. In each case the remedy being sought is always some wholesale change to be made to the entire game for the benefit of the individual complainer. (This particular OP is one of the more likable and impressive, in my opinion. He has listened open-mindedly and has shown a tolerant willingness to accept others' opinions.)

 

When another cacher responds to the usual suggestion/demand with "If you don't like them, don't hunt them," that responder is saying many things:

 

- Some of us actually like the thing you want to get rid of.

- The thing you want to get rid of isn’t hurting anyone.

- Please be tolerant of those who enjoy a different preference.

- There are ways to modify your game more to your liking without limiting other people’s fun.

- Simply avoiding the specific thing you dislike might be easier and more pleasant than griping about it in the forums.

 

What the responder is NOT saying is "sit down and shut up." And I see no reason why it should be taken that way.

 

"If you don't like them, don't hunt them," is an excellent -- and succinct -- argument. Just because it fits on a bumper sticker, or gets repeated a lot, or can be a sufficient (and refreshing) substitute for a long-winded post, doesn’t make it invalid.

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On the other hand, some puzzle caches are created for the SOLE PURPOSE of frustrating the cache finder. To me, this falls into the category of posting 'bad' coordinates, not archiving a missing cache and not having a cache placed at all.

The reason for the puzzle is to add a challenge, not to prevent people from finding the cache. This is nothing like the other examples you give, and adding a puzzle is no different from placing the cache in a terrain where few people will go. Each method adds a challenge, and different people will rise to different challenges.

I don't quite agree with all of this statement. A puzzle simply makes what would normally be a (usually) easily found cache, more difficult to find. It therefore makes what could normally be a well visited cache, much less visited. This is done intentionally by the owner. The main focus of this sort of cache is in the puzzle itself - the container and position usually play a much less important part.

 

A high terrain cache however is not expected to get many visits due to the difficulty of access. The intention of the owner is to encourage people to the cache, and the often outstanding locations in which they are hidden. Sometimes of course, you get the odd sicko out there :D who hides caches in difficult places just for the hell of it. These sorts of caches are often the most fun of all (well to some of us!).

Creative cachers make their hides challenging by placing all sorts of obstacles between the finder and the cache. Long hikes, tricky camouflage, steep climbs, tedious stages, deep lakes, crowds of muggles, clever concealments ... and yes, difficult puzzles.

 

Are these obstacles placed in the spirit of fun, or are they put there by mean cache owners who only want to cackle insanely whenever a finder gives up? My response to that question is: Who cares? The only thing that matters is: Do you accept the challenge?

 

You seem to have a preconceived idea as to what the 'spirit of caching' means to you. That’s fine; it is good that you know what you like. Others, however, have their own ideas as to what they enjoy. In my opinion the spirit of tolerance is far more critical to the spirit of caching than is any specific form of cache hide.

 

As many others have pointed out, the arguments you use against puzzles could be used against any other type of challenge or obstacle. I just don’t see the difference. If we get rid of puzzles, then we must next begin to eliminate all the other challenges, one by one. What will we be left with then? If all caching were the same it would be very tedious indeed. Is monotonous sameness in the spirit of caching? I’m much happier with a deep and wide menu from which to choose.

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