Members Only = Elitist?

[+twins+one]

Hello lovely cachers,

 

I am very new to the game so please excuse my ignorance. I recently placed a cache and marked it members only.

 

GC1V0PT

 

The sole purpose of this was because it is a very large cache filled with somewhat expensive 80's toys. I figured that if it is members only no fly by night cacher would walk up and clean it out (perhaps that in itself is a bad attitude to posses)

 

I have noticed that a few premium members that are very local and very active have not really given my cache a second look (according to my audit log) and I thought perhaps it is because they won't do MO caches.

 

So my questions are; Does "members only" caches offend some premium members? Do many have the view that this should be a free game across the board but pay for the membership in order to receive the perks? Does making a "members only" cache make you an elitist on a very small scale?

 

I really don't want to offend anybody and I am sure I am over thinking this (which is very common) but I just want to make sure. Thank you for your insight.

[knowschad]

There are some people that feel that way, but I don't worry about them. We even have one local cacher (a PM himself) that puts notes on PM caches stating his opinion that they are elitest. He has a right to his opinion, no matter how dumb I may think it is. You can't please 'em all.

[+bittsen]

Hello lovely cachers,

 

I am very new to the game so please excuse my ignorance. I recently placed a cache and marked it members only.

 

GC1V0PT

 

The sole purpose of this was because it is a very large cache filled with somewhat expensive 80's toys. I figured that if it is members only no fly by night cacher would walk up and clean it out (perhaps that in itself is a bad attitude to posses)

 

I have noticed that a few premium members that are very local and very active have not really given my cache a second look (according to my audit log) and I thought perhaps it is because they won't do MO caches.

 

So my questions are; Does "members only" caches offend some premium members? Do many have the view that this should be a free game across the board but pay for the membership in order to receive the perks? Does making a "members only" cache make you an elitist on a very small scale?

 

I really don't want to offend anybody and I am sure I am over thinking this (which is very common) but I just want to make sure. Thank you for your insight.

 

I think your reasoning behind making it a MO cache is valid.

I think that the game should be free (as it is) but there should be extra perks for those who want to pony up the dinero (as it is).

As for MO caches, for the most part, i think they don't need to be there BUT, as I said I see the validity in them. Making your cache a MO for the FTF is, in my opinion, and elitist stance. The CO doesn't get any part of the proceeds from the premium membership so why would they care (other than denying a vulture a FTF prize)?

 

Believe it or not, there ARE people out there who "use" geocaching as a method to be jerks. Keeping your cache with valuables as a MO cache will help keep the number of jerks from seeing it.

 

I see nothing wrong with what you have done.

[+todd300]

I also have seen many MO caches published due to the fact that they are on private property placed with permission. In many cases, it's usually the CO's property and I'm sure he does not want some fly-by cachers on his property and for good reason.

 

I see nothing wrong with an MO cache. They wanna be jerks about it, their loss.

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

It may not have anything to do with the members only label. I actually don't even notice which ones are which when I search for caches.

 

However, I would be unlikely to go to your cache immediately because it would require more work than I can handle right now. I'm actually not really sure which toys are from what decade, so to ensure that I am trading correctly I would need to do some research and, silly as it seems, I'm more likely to put that kind of time into doing research for a puzzle cache or doing research on a topo map to determine terrain than I am to research swag.

 

I would eventually get there, but it would be on the back-burner. I've had similar reactions to other restrictive caches. They've gone on the list, but it takes a while to get to them because of the restrictions on what is acceptable to trade.

 

Carolyn

[+mrbort]

Making your cache a MO for the FTF is, in my opinion, and elitist stance. The CO doesn't get any part of the proceeds from the premium membership so why would they care (other than denying a vulture a FTF prize)?

 

Surprisingly, I'm going to disagree with you here bittsen .... I can see a valid reason for making a cache PMO for the FTF and I don't believe that the reasoning is elitist: If the FTF or the FTF prize is an incentive for non premium member cachers, making the FTF a PMO feature is incentive for them to become premium members. It's incentive the reason for which is not elitism (there is no sense of "premium members are better than non-premium members) but instead something I will explain shortly: While the CO doesn't reap monetary proceeds from membership fees, those fees go toward things like infrastructure maintenance and feature additions, all things that benefit the CO indirectly. By enticing people to become premium members, people are indirectly working toward the improvement of their geocaching.com experience. Additionally, premium members have a monetary stake in the game and would be more likely to learn caching etiquette and try to make the most out of their money.

 

This is in no way to denigrate those who don't pay for the premium membership. I would imagine that they're almost universally excellent people and respectful cachers.

[+twins+one]

It may not have anything to do with the members only label. I actually don't even notice which ones are which when I search for caches.

 

However, I would be unlikely to go to your cache immediately because it would require more work than I can handle right now. I'm actually not really sure which toys are from what decade, so to ensure that I am trading correctly I would need to do some research and, silly as it seems, I'm more likely to put that kind of time into doing research for a puzzle cache or doing research on a topo map to determine terrain than I am to research swag.

 

I would eventually get there, but it would be on the back-burner. I've had similar reactions to other restrictive caches. They've gone on the list, but it takes a while to get to them because of the restrictions on what is acceptable to trade.

 

Carolyn

 

Carolyn,

Thank you very much for your reply. So do people feel obligated to trade when they find a themed cached? I have only found a few and really enjoyed them. I have not traded on a couple because I don't have anything that fits the theme but it didn't diminish my excitement on the find. Do some people not appreciate theme caches because they are considered restrictive?

 

Thanks again.

[+bittsen]

Surprisingly, I'm going to disagree with you here bittsen .... I can see a valid reason for making a cache PMO for the FTF and I don't believe that the reasoning is elitist: If the FTF or the FTF prize is an incentive for non premium member cachers, making the FTF a PMO feature is incentive for them to become premium members. It's incentive the reason for which is not elitism (there is no sense of "premium members are better than non-premium members) but instead something I will explain shortly: While the CO doesn't reap monetary proceeds from membership fees, those fees go toward things like infrastructure maintenance and feature additions, all things that benefit the CO indirectly. By enticing people to become premium members, people are indirectly working toward the improvement of their geocaching.com experience. Additionally, premium members have a monetary stake in the game and would be more likely to learn caching etiquette and try to make the most out of their money.

 

This is in no way to denigrate those who don't pay for the premium membership. I would imagine that they're almost universally excellent people and respectful cachers.

 

I'm shocked....shocked, I tell ya...

 

With all the caches out there that don't require a premium membership, your argument doesn't hold much water.

The ONLY reason I became a premium member is for the extra services. I am sure I am not in a small group that would NEVER pay money just to have 2% more caches at my disposal.

[+twins+one]

Sorry.... didn't mean to go off topic on my own topic

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

Carolyn,

Thank you very much for your reply. So do people feel obligated to trade when they find a themed cached? I have only found a few and really enjoyed them. I have not traded on a couple because I don't have anything that fits the theme but it didn't diminish my excitement on the find. Do some people not appreciate theme caches because they are considered restrictive?

 

Thanks again.

 

I don't think people feel compelled to trade. We don't feel compelled to and we're actually unlikely to take things. But I find a certain satisfaction in leaving something behind me for someone else. (I am not sure whether this is some kind of territory-marking activity or what it might be, but it seems to be a part of caching for me.)

 

Like I said, the restrictions wouldn't prevent me from going to your cache, it would just delay it and it would delay it longer than the stamp-collecting cache we attempted because we know and understand stamps but we don't know toys. Once we got there I'm sure we'd enjoy it.

 

What I'm suggesting is that restrictions lengthen the time it might take for someone to go to your cache. It might not be that people find you elitist. It might just be that like solving a puzzle or tackling difficult terrain, restrictive caches take time to plan.

 

Carolyn

[+mrbort]

Surprisingly, I'm going to disagree with you here bittsen .... I can see a valid reason for making a cache PMO for the FTF and I don't believe that the reasoning is elitist: If the FTF or the FTF prize is an incentive for non premium member cachers, making the FTF a PMO feature is incentive for them to become premium members. It's incentive the reason for which is not elitism (there is no sense of "premium members are better than non-premium members) but instead something I will explain shortly: While the CO doesn't reap monetary proceeds from membership fees, those fees go toward things like infrastructure maintenance and feature additions, all things that benefit the CO indirectly. By enticing people to become premium members, people are indirectly working toward the improvement of their geocaching.com experience. Additionally, premium members have a monetary stake in the game and would be more likely to learn caching etiquette and try to make the most out of their money.

 

This is in no way to denigrate those who don't pay for the premium membership. I would imagine that they're almost universally excellent people and respectful cachers.

 

I'm shocked....shocked, I tell ya...

 

With all the caches out there that don't require a premium membership, your argument doesn't hold much water.

The ONLY reason I became a premium member is for the extra services. I am sure I am not in a small group that would NEVER pay money just to have 2% more caches at my disposal.

 

I was mentioning the incentive because if someone is really keen to get FTFs and note that a lot of the caches are PMO at first, that might be an incentive to become a premium member. You wouldn't do it for that reason and I wouldn't do it for that reason.... Doesn't mean that someone else might not. I don't think that the group that would use this as an incentive is a large one but I don't doubt that it's there. At least I had an argument for why I felt that they weren't elitist.

 

Where is the elitism thing then? You mentioned that it's elitist. That means that people who make the FTF on a cach PMO are somehow, by their actions, evidencing belief that premium members "deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources" (lifted from dictionary.com, emphasis mine). The first parts are clearly not applicable so let's cut to the financial resources bit since it seems on the surface most applicable.

 

First, financial resources means ability to pay in a very general sense (and 'elitism' based on that is simply not something that I think anyone has in mind when they make a cache or FTF PMO); I don't believe that people look at the membership fee to be prohibitive for the majority of people who have shelled out hundreds of dollars for a GPS device, gas etc. Regardless of someone's choice/inability to pay, I further don't believe that making a cache or FTF on a cach PMO evidences any feelings of superiority but rather is a choice to extend the services for which people pay when becoming premium members, again an enticement for others to join. Making the argument that making a cache PMO or even just the FTF PMO is elitist behavior is essentially making the argument that making use of any service provided by a paid membership is elitist. I've shown how CO's benefit from paid memberships so whether it's financially or quality of service, both those who run the site and those who use the site benefit from paid memberships.

 

I find it interesting that you support the OP's idea to make the cache PMO yet dismiss those who make it PMO for the first finder only as elitist. For the record, I don't make my caches PMO, not even for the first finder. I'm just saying that I understand those who do and don't think it evidences any sort of elitism. That word gets bandied about so often and is so easy to use to paint anyone with a nasty brush. Rather than just saying that behaviors are elitist, it would be useful to explain why... perhaps without resorting to a catchall nasty buzzword.

[+bittsen]

 

I was mentioning the incentive because if someone is really keen to get FTFs and note that a lot of the caches are PMO at first, that might be an incentive to become a premium member. You wouldn't do it for that reason and I wouldn't do it for that reason.... Doesn't mean that someone else might not. I don't think that the group that would use this as an incentive is a large one but I don't doubt that it's there. At least I had an argument for why I felt that they weren't elitist.

 

Where is the elitism thing then? You mentioned that it's elitist. That means that people who make the FTF on a cach PMO are somehow, by their actions, evidencing belief that premium members "deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources" (lifted from dictionary.com, emphasis mine). The first parts are clearly not applicable so let's cut to the financial resources bit since it seems on the surface most applicable.

 

First, financial resources means ability to pay in a very general sense (and 'elitism' based on that is simply not something that I think anyone has in mind when they make a cache or FTF PMO); I don't believe that people look at the membership fee to be prohibitive for the majority of people who have shelled out hundreds of dollars for a GPS device, gas etc. Regardless of someone's choice/inability to pay, I further don't believe that making a cache or FTF on a cach PMO evidences any feelings of superiority but rather is a choice to extend the services for which people pay when becoming premium members, again an enticement for others to join. Making the argument that making a cache PMO or even just the FTF PMO is elitist behavior is essentially making the argument that making use of any service provided by a paid membership is elitist. I've shown how CO's benefit from paid memberships so whether it's financially or quality of service, both those who run the site and those who use the site benefit from paid memberships.

 

I find it interesting that you support the OP's idea to make the cache PMO yet dismiss those who make it PMO for the first finder only as elitist. For the record, I don't make my caches PMO, not even for the first finder. I'm just saying that I understand those who do and don't think it evidences any sort of elitism. That word gets bandied about so often and is so easy to use to paint anyone with a nasty brush. Rather than just saying that behaviors are elitist, it would be useful to explain why... perhaps without resorting to a catchall nasty buzzword.

 

Anything exclusive is (imho) elitist. When you excluse one class of people, for whatever reason, it is elitist. There may be valid reasons for the exclusion but that doesn't mean its not elitist.

[+mrbort]

Anything exclusive is (imho) elitist. When you excluse one class of people, for whatever reason, it is elitist. There may be valid reasons for the exclusion but that doesn't mean its not elitist.

 

Then any membership is elitist. A gym is elitist because it doesn't let people in who haven't paid?

 

Extend that to a shop. A shop is elitist because it excludes the set of people who havent paid for a product from walking out with it?

 

I think you're confusing goods and services with superiority. Elitism implies superiority and none of the examples I cited, nor the examples of members only features imply superiority.

[+ThirstyMick]

I didn't read all of the replies so it may have been mentioned already, but some people may be deterred by the mention of dogs on the other side of the fence.

 

For the most part, I don't even notice if a cache is PMO or not until I'm logging. I usually look at the cache description on my GPS as I'm walking toward it

[+bittsen]

Anything exclusive is (imho) elitist. When you excluse one class of people, for whatever reason, it is elitist. There may be valid reasons for the exclusion but that doesn't mean its not elitist.

 

Then any membership is elitist. A gym is elitist because it doesn't let people in who haven't paid?

 

Extend that to a shop. A shop is elitist because it excludes the set of people who havent paid for a product from walking out with it?

 

I think you're confusing goods and services with superiority. Elitism implies superiority and none of the examples I cited, nor the examples of members only features imply superiority.

 

Thats your opinion and I respect your right to have it.

[+mrbort]

Anything exclusive is (imho) elitist. When you excluse one class of people, for whatever reason, it is elitist. There may be valid reasons for the exclusion but that doesn't mean its not elitist.

 

Then any membership is elitist. A gym is elitist because it doesn't let people in who haven't paid?

 

Extend that to a shop. A shop is elitist because it excludes the set of people who havent paid for a product from walking out with it?

 

I think you're confusing goods and services with superiority. Elitism implies superiority and none of the examples I cited, nor the examples of members only features imply superiority.

 

Thats your opinion and I respect your right to have it.

 

Actually the first part is not my opinion. It was a hypothetical extension of your argument and the question marks were indicating that I was floating a real or rhetorical question based on the premise you stated.

 

The final paragraph was my opinion and thank you for respecting my right to have it as I do your right to have yours.

[+bittsen]

Anything exclusive is (imho) elitist. When you excluse one class of people, for whatever reason, it is elitist. There may be valid reasons for the exclusion but that doesn't mean its not elitist.

 

Then any membership is elitist. A gym is elitist because it doesn't let people in who haven't paid?

 

Extend that to a shop. A shop is elitist because it excludes the set of people who havent paid for a product from walking out with it?

 

I think you're confusing goods and services with superiority. Elitism implies superiority and none of the examples I cited, nor the examples of members only features imply superiority.

 

Thats your opinion and I respect your right to have it.

 

Actually the first part is not my opinion. It was a hypothetical extension of your argument and the question marks were indicating that I was floating a real or rhetorical question based on the premise you stated.

 

The final paragraph was my opinion and thank you for respecting my right to have it as I do your right to have yours.

 

BTW, just to clarify a point. GC is selling a service. They are not elitist for not offering their premium services to non paid participants.

The person who is not a profiteer (ie selling a service), who is a member, excluding their participation to non members, is the elitist part.

 

I am sorry if you can't see the difference but the difference is clear.

[+TripCyclone]

Here's a thought. Personally, I prefer to keep my caches available to all. Yet I can respect someone wanting to do a PM only cache for special caches (doing it on an average cache doesn't make sense). However, I once heard a valid reason for PM only caches.

 

If a cache is marked for PM only, and a non PM accesses it (the normal way...not the secret passage way), they won't be able to look up the coordinates. As such, if there is an area where caches seem to get muggled a lot, and there is indications that someone signed up for geocaching to figure out where they were before muggling them, then marking it for PM might be a safety issue. That forces the cache thief to pay to learn where those caches are.

 

It's one of the only reasons I've heard that actually makes a lot of sense. If hidden well enough to significantly reduce the chances of a random muggling and it still comes up missing, then it might mean that the cache thief is a geocacher.

[+twins+one]

Thank you all again for the replies. I have to wonder what are the odds that the FTF are not PM's anyway. The PM's are the only ones to receive notice of a newly placed cache correct? I didn't know I had the option to make it MO after the FTF but would that really matter anyway? Perhaps to ease my own mind that I made it an even playing field in the first place for the FTF.

 

Then that strikes up a whole new problem. What if I publish it as open just until FTF then shut it down to MO? Will that really bother a standard member that they at one time had access to the page and then all the sudden they don't because they didn't make it there on time?

[GOF and Bacall]

Some of those PM members that aren't showing on your audit log may actually be seeing the cache. Using PQs and a program like GSAK premium members can read the cache page info. off line any time they want and never actually go to the online page.

[knowschad]

 

BTW, just to clarify a point. GC is selling a service. They are not elitist for not offering their premium services to non paid participants.

The person who is not a profiteer (ie selling a service), who is a member, excluding their participation to non members, is the elitist part.

 

I am sorry if you can't see the difference but the difference is clear.

 

...as mud.

 

So, its ok to be exclusionary as long as you make a profit in doing so? Otherwise, it is elitist? I don't get it. Sorry.

[+flask]

i don't hunt MO caches unless one slips through my PQ as sometimes happens.

 

one of the things that i like about the sport is that it's open to everybody, free of charge. don't get me wrong; i have a premium membership and i support premium memberships. i just don't like caches that aren't available to all comers.

 

there are plenty of paying cachers who don't trade appropriately, or don't re-hide a cache properly, and plenty of paying members whom i consider to be shady characters whom i wouldn't want in my yard. so from my point of view the only real reason to have a PMOC is for the audit log, and even that's not accurate. most people know how to get around those as well.

 

PMOC are maybe not elitist, but certainly exclusionary. it's still your prerogative.

[+solo63137]

I'd likely find it, sign the log and not take anything...

 

If I had something to add that I thought would add to the theme, I would...

 

Then come on here and log it....

[+twins+one]

i don't hunt MO caches unless one slips through my PQ as sometimes happens.

 

one of the things that i like about the sport is that it's open to everybody, free of charge. don't get me wrong; i have a premium membership and i support premium memberships. i just don't like caches that aren't available to all comers.

 

there are plenty of paying cachers who don't trade appropriately, or don't re-hide a cache properly, and plenty of paying members whom i consider to be shady characters whom i wouldn't want in my yard. so from my point of view the only real reason to have a PMOC is for the audit log, and even that's not accurate. most people know how to get around those as well.

 

PMOC are maybe not elitist, but certainly exclusionary. it's still your prerogative.

 

Well now I just feel awful (no offense Flask)

 

I was raised within a very poor environment, hardworking but poor. I detest the treatment of others with a superiority attitude. This is something that I would never want to teach my boys.... I just was playing the numbers thinking that the odds are better that it is MO when it comes to raiding a cache. Of course this is not a fail safe method and in all reality if I am so concerned about this perhaps I shouldn't be placing the cache in the first place. I definitely have to think about this.

[+Kit Fox]

Caches marked for premium members only are no where near as "exclusionary or elitist" as caches requiring boats, black lights, rappelling gear, scuba gear, or the physical ability to hike long distances over rough terrain.

 

My best hides are all premium member caches. I've hidden over 125 physical caches and my Premium caches last longer, and retain a better quality of trade items. Most of my best caches require significant effort be it long hikes, or tough puzzles, and long hikes. This is a factor that can and does contribute to these caches lasting longer.

 

When I first started geocaching (May 2004) the website was very simplistic. Over the years Groundspeak has made substantial improvements along the way. I personally feel premium members are the best supporters of this site. I've been a premium member since June of 04, and I like to share my caches other site supporters. $30.00 per year is hardly an elitist club.

 

Be aware that this topic is one of the most heated topics in the forum.

 

Logic behind "Premium members only" caches, benefits

 

 

What's the Beef about PREMIUM MEMBERS ONLY caches?

 

Premium member cache questions.

 

Deleting Logs of Premium Members -- is this allowed?

 

Should more caches be made members only?

 

Economics 101

 

Premium Membership Exclusivities

 

Member only caches and why I hate them

 

Caches for premium members only

 

Why have the premium membership?

 

Members only caches

 

Subscription Only Caches--grrrrrrrrrr!

 

Member Only Caches, Should I or shouldn't I?

 

Caches for Premium members only

 

Members only caches

 

"members only" caches rant

 

The First "no Members" Cache

 

Change Moc Suggestion, need only normal account to view

 

Northeast Premium Member Only Caches, What are your thoughts?

 

When To Hide A Premium Member Cache, What is the culture of Member Only cache

 

Members Only Cache Hides, Members Only Cache Hides

 

Members Only, Premium Member Cache

 

And from across the pond

Members Only Caches, Is there a point anymore ?

Edited July 2, 2009 by Kit Fox

[+Stunod]

I have noticed that a few premium members that are very local and very active have not really given my cache a second look (according to my audit log) and I thought perhaps it is because they won't do MO caches.

 

Or perhaps it's because as Premium Members they can pull your cache data via a Pocket Query and never have a reason to visit your cache page (and therefore not end up on the audit log).

[+mrbort]

BTW, just to clarify a point. GC is selling a service. They are not elitist for not offering their premium services to non paid participants.

The person who is not a profiteer (ie selling a service), who is a member, excluding their participation to non members, is the elitist part.

 

I am sorry if you can't see the difference but the difference is clear.

 

1) I don't think you know what the word "profiteer" means.

 

2) One doesn't have to gain monetarily to gain from the financial success of a company. I have mentioned ways that people who aren't financially benefiting from revenue derived from premium memberships are benefiting in other ways. Like Chad's Associate said, it's only okay to be, what you describe as 'elitist' when you're making financial gain?

 

3) This sub-discussion originated from a post where you agreed with the example of making it premium members only but railed against making only the FTF PMO. I continue not to understand that logic.

 

4) I like what flask said.

 

5) I do understand the difference as you see it but think that you're awfully quick to pull the "elitism" trigger. I remember a recent-ish thread where you were essentially saying that any cache that took a great deal of effort or special equipment was elitist because not everyone could do it. I don't have the link but I'll be a certain bloodhound with glasses could dig it up.

 

6) For me, the elitism in a PMO placement depends on the mindset of the person placing it, not the actual placement itself. We could go round and round on generalities but I can see where individual reasoning for placing caches as PMO should not be considered elitist at all because they don't have the essential superiority that differentiates elitist from exclusionary.

 

7) I think I've said all that I want to on this because I seem to be repeating myself responding to essentially reworded arguments that aren't counterarguments but instead just retreading of the original. To the OP: good luck with your cache If you decide to make it PMO, more power to you and I don't think it's elitist. If you decide to open it up, then great as well Either way I hope that it is rewarding and long-lived, bringing many people enjoyment!

[+todd300]

Wow. You really took the time to back-track to those topics, Kit.

 

I've only looked for one MO cache and it's the only one in my area.

 

I understand the reasoning behind making a cache MO and have no problems with it.

 

Now back to the Bittsen-Mrbort debate

Edited July 2, 2009 by todd300

[+bittsen]

 

BTW, just to clarify a point. GC is selling a service. They are not elitist for not offering their premium services to non paid participants.

The person who is not a profiteer (ie selling a service), who is a member, excluding their participation to non members, is the elitist part.

 

I am sorry if you can't see the difference but the difference is clear.

 

...as mud.

 

So, its ok to be exclusionary as long as you make a profit in doing so? Otherwise, it is elitist? I don't get it. Sorry.

 

I didn't think you would.

Actually I think you do get it but just want to argue. (is this where I'm supposed to put the emoticon?)

[+Chrysalides]

Wow. You really took the time to back-track to those topics, Kit.

 

Now back to the Bittsen-Mrbort debate

I'm going to bookmark Kit's post and the next time this comes up markwell it.

 

Don't forget acquaintance of Chad. I think the dogs vs. dragon debate killed the forum server again. It was humming along fine, and I just got a 45 second timeout.

[+bittsen]

i don't hunt MO caches unless one slips through my PQ as sometimes happens.

 

one of the things that i like about the sport is that it's open to everybody, free of charge. don't get me wrong; i have a premium membership and i support premium memberships. i just don't like caches that aren't available to all comers.

 

there are plenty of paying cachers who don't trade appropriately, or don't re-hide a cache properly, and plenty of paying members whom i consider to be shady characters whom i wouldn't want in my yard. so from my point of view the only real reason to have a PMOC is for the audit log, and even that's not accurate. most people know how to get around those as well.

 

PMOC are maybe not elitist, but certainly exclusionary. it's still your prerogative.

 

Well now I just feel awful (no offense Flask)

 

I was raised within a very poor environment, hardworking but poor. I detest the treatment of others with a superiority attitude. This is something that I would never want to teach my boys.... I just was playing the numbers thinking that the odds are better that it is MO when it comes to raiding a cache. Of course this is not a fail safe method and in all reality if I am so concerned about this perhaps I shouldn't be placing the cache in the first place. I definitely have to think about this.

 

I agree with both of these statements. Well said.

[+Chrysalides]

Be aware that this topic is one of the most heated topics in the forum.

Say, you don't happen to have lists for FTF, Cheating, I Hate Micros and Cache Thiefs, do you?

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

Then that strikes up a whole new problem. What if I publish it as open just until FTF then shut it down to MO? Will that really bother a standard member that they at one time had access to the page and then all the sudden they don't because they didn't make it there on time?

 

I am wondering whether you are over-analyzing this. I also tend to analyze myself into smaller and smaller circles, so I wonder if this is what you are doing. (My beloved says watching my thoughts fly when I'm analyzing something is like watching two geegy birds circle round each other in tighter and tighter circles until they fly up each other's butts.)

 

The sad, sad truth of the matter is that some people will be offended by any course you take and you can't prevent that by acting differently. You will just get a new crew of offended people.

 

Despite the big deal being made in this thread by the semi-professional debaters here, who are clearly exploring old arguments rather than focusing on your particular cache, I strongly suspect that if your cache is not being visited by premium members it has nothing to do with the premium member cache restriction. It is more likely to be other restrictions you've placed on it or the scary dog or something else particular to that cache.

 

There is a way to examine your hypothesis and either dismiss it or prove it. Look at the profiles of the premium members you are thinking of. Check the caches they've found. See if any of those caches are premium member only. If the answer is yes, then your hypothesis is disproven. If the answer is no, then you have not yet disproven it.

 

Carolyn

[+BlueDeuce]

 

Be aware that this topic is one of the most heated topics in the forum.

 

You missed the one from last November:

 

Premium Member Only caches are elitist!

[+Kit Fox]

Be aware that this topic is one of the most heated topics in the forum.

Say, you don't happen to have lists for FTF, Cheating, I Hate Micros and Cache Thiefs, do you?

 

If more cachers took the time to use the search function, about 75% of the posts would never be repeated. Examples include:

 

PMOC caches

Cheating

Who has found the most caches

You might be a geocacher if

Angst (all varieties)

GSAK Question

Question about paperless caching

What is the coolest cache you have ever found?

Why did they stop approving Virtuals?

 

and my personal favorites

Lame Caches

Lame Micros

Numbers Game

Define Buried caches

[GOF and Bacall]

So what say we start a thread about how many lame micro caches you have found buried and how they were buried.

[knowschad]

...as mud.

 

So, its ok to be exclusionary as long as you make a profit in doing so? Otherwise, it is elitist? I don't get it. Sorry.

 

I didn't think you would.

Actually I think you do get it but just want to argue. (is this where I'm supposed to put the emoticon?)

 

No emoticon available would turn that personal jab into "humor". I said that I didn't follow your logic, and your response is what... to question my intellegence? the sincerity of my response? I'm not sure how to take that, but I do not take it kindly.

[knowschad]

 

If more cachers took the time to use the search function, about 75% of the posts would never be repeated.

 

Don't forget all those threads about using the search function instead of repeating topics.

 

If more cachers took the time to use the search function, about 75% of the posts would never be repeated and we'd have very little to talk about around here, aside from, "Are There Any Other Bricklayer Cachers Out There?". I see nothing wrong with old topics being rehashed.

 

Besides, if they dug up an old topic and replied to that, we'd be giving them grief for kicking a dead horse.

 

We don't want to become forum elitists now, do we?

Edited July 2, 2009 by knowschad

[+flask]

 

 

Well now I just feel awful (no offense Flask)

 

<snip>. Of course this is not a fail safe method and in all reality if I am so concerned about this perhaps I shouldn't be placing the cache in the first place. I definitely have to think about this.

 

it ain't worth feelin' bad about.

 

place your cache. if you come to feel differently about PMOC, you can always open it up to everyone later.

 

as for the toys, when i place a cache with really good stuff in it, i think of the stuff partly as gifts. if it's VERY nice stuff, nobody brings even trades for that. but even with mostly appropriate trades, inventory does decline over time.

[+Mule Ears]

Elitist? No. For a PMOC cache to be elitist, paid members would have to constitute an elite--a superior class separated from the commoners by a wide gulf of talent, wealth, achievement, etc. Elite status must be coveted and difficult to attain and widely admired or envied, or else it's not elite. Olympic athletes are elite; Navy SEALs are elite; astronauts are elite; movie stars are elite; billionaires are elite. Premium-member cachers are not elite. Virtually all regular members who aspire to premium status could achieve it without difficulty. Any status that can be achieved by a day or two of panhandling, collecting aluminum cans or selling plasma is not elite.

 

If premium members were to be considered elite compared to regular members, then Target shoppers would constitute an elite relative to Wal*Mart shoppers.

[Xoles]

My 2 pennies here. I don't think it's elitist, and overly sensative and easily offended people are stupid and should be ignored. That said, this whole thing about only certain people get the info so they can be the FTF....not an incentive for membership, just an annoyance, and easily gotten over. Life is to short and there are to amny real problems in the world to go around worrying if something little like this is going to (heaven forbid) offend someone. It's your cache and you can restrict all you wanna. If people get offended or get thier feelings hurt, they can get over it, it's a growing up experience.

 

I just realized something. So far I am the only one posting in this thread that is not a paid member, and I don't see why anyone should be offended about a cache being PMO. Maybe this is a sign. I can see valid reason for you wanting to post your cache this way, but I also see that you don't have to explain why. Just enjoy the game, and stop worrying about it.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Xoles

[+sseegars]

Really? We have to go over this again?

 

Everytime someone posts here I am changing one of my caches over to PMO! And when I run out I will get my friends to change them over. STOP POSTING! I mean it!

[+gelfling6]

I've been noticing a lot of the newer caches placed here in Connecticut, have been marked as Members Only, but I think the reason is not to be elitists, but to prevent theft.. There has been a rash of thefts here in the North East, usually by kids out of school for the summer, with nothing to do, destructive intentions..

 

So, by limiting the infomation/location of the caches, there is less likelihood, of the cache being destroyed or stolen.

 

Examples of why:

 

The recent news about a cache down in Florida being destroyed, by someone caliming it was on private property, that they were well within their rights to conficate/dismantle ALL trackable items in the cache, remove all the "Dollar Store Junk", and resell the TB dogtags & geocoins (and "United for Diabetes" blue rings, I noted from the photo they had) on eBay

 

Elitist claiming to be members of well meaning organizations like Leave No Trace (LNT.org) who view the LNT code of ethics as their license to destroy. (which even included URBAN caches)

 

 

I thought, Geocaching's intent, was to get people out of their little caves, and into the real world.. Not rely 100% on their computer. (okay, you have to to get the information of where to find them.)

 

The problem, is too many with the wrong intent, have ruined it for others.. what else are we supposed to do, to save the fun?

[+Savoy 6]

Three bucks a month and I'm elitist? WOW, I have arrived.

 

By the way, PETA called. The dead horse needs to be turned to glue

[+TexasGringo]

<Target shoppers would constitute an elite relative to Wal*Mart shoppers.>

 

Finally, I'm Elite.

[+Corp Of Discovery]

I don't know that they are elitist, but they can be misused. Such as when one makes all of their caches PMO and uses the info in ways not intended by TPTB. Fortunately there are ways around that...

[C-Ker1]

I'm a non-premium member (mostly due to lack of finances), but I have no problem with PMO caches. I have seen some that make me wish I was a premium member based on the description, but I've never looked on the owner as elitist for making them PMO.

 

The one thing about them that bothers me about them (and "bother" is actually too strong a word) is this--what does a non-premium member do if he or she does find one? I know the chances of stumbling across one is rare, unless they are looking for a place to hide one of their own, but what if they are with a premium member? I've got a family member that is a PM and we cache together. If he has a PMO cache pop up as next closest and we go searching for it, is there any way that I can get credit for a find or am I better off to sit in the truck and wait for the next non-member cache?

 

I guess this is more of a curiosity question than anything.

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

The one thing about them that bothers me about them (and "bother" is actually too strong a word) is this--what does a non-premium member do if he or she does find one? I know the chances of stumbling across one is rare, unless they are looking for a place to hide one of their own, but what if they are with a premium member? I've got a family member that is a PM and we cache together. If he has a PMO cache pop up as next closest and we go searching for it, is there any way that I can get credit for a find or am I better off to sit in the truck and wait for the next non-member cache?

 

I guess this is more of a curiosity question than anything.

 

You can log them through a "backdoor" created by geocaching.com specifically for that purpose. I believe that the premium member gives you the URL to log it and you can use that. If you do a search on the forum, you'll find the instructions easily since this issue comes up fairly often.

 

Also, from what we've noticed if you are using one of the GPSrs that allow you to upload your field notes, you can get around it that way. When you post a found to the GPS and upload it via field notes it seems to ignore the Premium Owner restrictions.

 

Carolyn

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

Really? We have to go over this again?

 

Everytime someone posts here I am changing one of my caches over to PMO! And when I run out I will get my friends to change them over. STOP POSTING! I mean it!

 

I think you may have missed the original poster's question. She was asking about a specific cache that she feared was being ignored by premium members specifically because it was a PMOC.

 

I don't know that she got enough real feedback about her specific situation to come to a comfortable decision. Certainly if I were her and everyone used my question to beat their favorite dead horse, I'd feel discouraged.

 

Carolyn

[+bittsen]

What do you do if you are a regular member and find a cache thats not listed at those coords (in other words, a PM cache)?

 

Since you can't confirm its a cache (due to not being a premium member), assume it's trash and CITO it.

 

Just kidding...