Our only security is obscurity?

[knowschad]

CoyoteRed just posted the statement, "Our only security is obscurity" in another thread. It just so happens that I agree 100%, yet I am constantly seeing geocaching (organizations in particular) reaching out to both individuals and organizations, with geocaching semiars, etc.

 

It has long been my personal experience that anyone that really wants to learn about something enough to stick with it will figure out how to learn, and does not need classes, seminars, etc. Sure... they may find a cache or more, but will not likely stick with it over the long haul.

 

In my opinion and experience, publicizing our activity only brings scrutiny and policies and regulation, as well as a new wave of (mostly) fair weather cachers.

 

Yes, there are exceptions to my last inference. But for the most part, I am very much in favor (although its too late) of obsurity over popularity. Thoughts?

[aniyn]

I will agree with that. I thought about trying to put together a seminar for my town, but decided that I didn't want to risk my caches to people who might not really be all that interested (translation: trustworthy).

[+ReadyOrNot]

I agree completely.... The game has lost the "thrill" factor.

[+mrbort]

CoyoteRed just posted the statement, "Our only security is obscurity" in another thread. It just so happens that I agree 100%, yet I am constantly seeing geocaching (organizations in particular) reaching out to both individuals and organizations, with geocaching semiars, etc.

 

It has long been my personal experience that anyone that really wants to learn about something enough to stick with it will figure out how to learn, and does not need classes, seminars, etc. Sure... they may find a cache or more, but will not likely stick with it over the long haul.

 

In my opinion and experience, publicizing our activity only brings scrutiny and policies and regulation, as well as a new wave of (mostly) fair weather cachers.

 

Yes, there are exceptions to my last inference. But for the most part, I am very much in favor (although its too late) of obsurity over popularity. Thoughts?

 

It's a delicate balance: to keep a healthy population requires new members because there will inevitably be attrition so new cachers are needed to replace those who stop for whatever reason. The alternative is atrophy and I think that we all agree that that would be unhealthy. So given the choice between atrophy and growth, I would imagine that growth would be the majority choice. When faced with the question "why not stasis?" we need to think about the external dynamics of how people join the hobby. There is absolutely no scenario where more and more people are being exposed to caching (as part of associations with these new members) where the community will not grow. So it's growth through naturally exposing people to an enjoyable thing or atrophy due to secrecy or imposing arbitrary restrictions on growth.

 

Stipulating that "stay the same" is unreasonable and "shrink to obscurity" would yield an end result of few to no caches, we're left with examining a growing population. The rate of growth and integration into the community is the big thing. If scads of people sign up without any understanding of conventions or traditions, one ends up with the scrutiny and regulation that I don't think any are eager to see. So when we talk about seminars/classes etc, I think the content is important. If people are aware of the important issues (i.e. don't harm the environment/cache location, be aware of security perceptions etc) then I think they're positive things. If it's some random person up there talking about how much he or she enjoys the hobby without an attempt to educate about the issues that impact the game itself, then it's not a good thing. I think that the best growth is through individual cachers sharing their passion with friends. However we don't have just that so the best next option is to be responsible about the introduction of the hobby to others.

 

It won't appeal to everyone but if we can have the responsible side of the hobby known rather than the image of gps wielding path of destruction leaving people, at least we can hope to avoid further regulation/ugly restrictions.

 

Interesting topic

[Skippermark]

Are you talking about reaching out to other cachers or non-cachers?

 

In CT, we have events/seminars geared toward cachers to share tips on things like how to go paperless, better ways to setup PQs, see the latest technology first hand, like the iPhone app or the Colorado/Oregeon when they first came out. Most people who attend find them helpful because they can see things first hand and decide if it's something they'd like to do.

 

Or, if you're talking about having a geocache "table with info" or giving a talk to tell people who've never heard of caching to get them interested at a town fair or something like that, I'm not a fan of that, mainly because I've seen a lot of people try it after seeing something similar but drop out after a month.

 

They sign up, get excited, find 15 caches over the next month, pick up some TBs and then suddenly stop. Baseball season comes along, or the weather warms up and they put their boat into the water and lose interest, ignoring emails requesting they at least drop your TBs into a nearby cache so they can get moving.

 

It may be different in other places, but around here, I don't know anyone who's stuck with it after first hearing about it in a situation like I mentioned above.

 

Editing to add that I kind of like the "underground" side of it. There's nothing cooler than pulling up to a trailhead and seeing a geocaching logo on a car. No one else knows what it means, but when you see the person on the trail, you have an instant connection.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Skippermark

[+gof1]

I'm reminded of genies and their spacial relation ship with the contained volumes of bottles.

[+mrbort]

I'm reminded of genies and their spacial relation ship with the contained volumes of bottles.

Yep, at this point, I think "out" would be the correct description of the spatial relationship of this particular one...

[knowschad]

Are you talking about reaching out to other cachers or non-cachers?

 

In CT, we have events/seminars geared toward cachers to share tips on things like how to go paperless, better ways to setup PQs, see the latest technology first hand, like the iPhone app or the Colorado/Oregeon when they first came out. Most people who attend find them helpful because they can see things first hand and decide if it's something they'd like to do.

 

Or, if you're talking about having a geocache "table with info" or giving a talk to tell people who've never heard of caching to get them interested at a town fair or something like that, I'm not a fan of that, mainly because I've seen a lot of people try it after seeing something similar but drop out after a month.

 

They sign up, get excited, find 15 caches over the next month, pick up some TBs and then suddenly stop. Baseball season comes along, or the weather warms up and they put their boat into the water and lose interest, ignoring emails requesting they at least drop your TBs into a nearby cache so they can get moving.

 

It may be different in other places, but around here, I don't know anyone who's stuck with it after first hearing about it in a situation like I mentioned above.

 

Editing to add that I kind of like the "underground" side of it. There's nothing cooler than pulling up to a trailhead and seeing a geocaching logo on a car. No one else knows what it means, but when you see the person on the trail, you have an instant connection.

 

I am talking not only about your second scenario, but about media releases as well. Every time I see "Its a high-tech scavenger hunt" I just cringe. Yes, the LEO's should be notified, but all too often, they don't seem to pay attention when we do.

 

Ditto about the "underground" side of it. Wait until Pepsi starts putting coords on their bottlecaps.

 

In summation: You don't see Harry Potter and crew trying to convert the muggles, do you? No, you don't.

[+BadAndy]

I'm not so concerned about geocaching classes or seminars. As it's been pointed out we need the fresh blood to keep things lively.

 

I'm much more concerned with geocachers reaching out to government agencies. For someone without experience dealing with bureaucracies the process can and usually does backfire resulting in permit systems or bans.

 

If it's a big enough problem that they have to attend a class or seminar to manage it...manage it they will.

[knowschad]

It's a delicate balance: to keep a healthy population requires new members because there will inevitably be attrition so new cachers are needed to replace those who stop for whatever reason. The alternative is atrophy and I think that we all agree that that would be unhealthy. So given the choice between atrophy and growth, I would imagine that growth would be the majority choice. When faced with the question "why not stasis?" we need to think about the external dynamics of how people join the hobby. There is absolutely no scenario where more and more people are being exposed to caching (as part of associations with these new members) where the community will not grow. So it's growth through naturally exposing people to an enjoyable thing or atrophy due to secrecy or imposing arbitrary restrictions on growth.

 

Stipulating that "stay the same" is unreasonable and "shrink to obscurity" would yield an end result of few to no caches, we're left with examining a growing population. The rate of growth and integration into the community is the big thing. If scads of people sign up without any understanding of conventions or traditions, one ends up with the scrutiny and regulation that I don't think any are eager to see. So when we talk about seminars/classes etc, I think the content is important. If people are aware of the important issues (i.e. don't harm the environment/cache location, be aware of security perceptions etc) then I think they're positive things. If it's some random person up there talking about how much he or she enjoys the hobby without an attempt to educate about the issues that impact the game itself, then it's not a good thing. I think that the best growth is through individual cachers sharing their passion with friends. However we don't have just that so the best next option is to be responsible about the introduction of the hobby to others.

 

It won't appeal to everyone but if we can have the responsible side of the hobby known rather than the image of gps wielding path of destruction leaving people, at least we can hope to avoid further regulation/ugly restrictions.

 

Interesting topic

 

Wow! Interesting reply!

 

OK, well, entropy, stasis, or growth. We had growth in the early days (admittedly before my time), but the word was spread in relatively obscure media (Originally, USENET) that only a select few had access to. Yet the concept had enough inate appeal to turn statis into growth. And that growth continued. And it continues to this day. My fear is that the growth will, like algae in a pond, eventually suck the oxygen right out of the water and block the sunlight from its own photosynthesis. We become accepted, known, poplular, like Wonder Bread. Oh, how boring!

[+mrbort]

Wow! Interesting reply!

 

OK, well, entropy, stasis, or growth. We had growth in the early days (admittedly before my time), but the word was spread in relatively obscure media (Originally, USENET) that only a select few had access to. Yet the concept had enough inate appeal to turn statis into growth. And that growth continued. And it continues to this day. My fear is that the growth will, like algae in a pond, eventually suck the oxygen right out of the water and block the sunlight from its own photosynthesis. We become accepted, known, poplular, like Wonder Bread. Oh, how boring!

 

I guess that's where the rate and quality of growth is so important. Fortunately, for a group that can't even agree on the color of the sky, we do have some pretty ingrained values that are constant not only from the forum regulars but also for the larger set who neither know or care that the forums exist. Specifically, I believe (based on experience) that the vast majority are concerned about environmental impact. Of course there are those who tear up a spot to find a cache but for the most part, I believe this point is one of commonality. That basic respect transmitted to new cachers will go a long way.

 

Then we're faced with the natural evolution of what geocaching is to individuals and the collective. These are the issues with which we wrestle contentiously every day on these forums. I appreciate all of the sometimes heated arguments that are the sign of passionate people making their very best cases to influence this direction. I think that the main thing, as you identified in your original post, is avoiding the behaviors that will lead to more regulation and specifically a negative public perception leading to prohibition of cache placement in more areas. The more we can do as a community to educate positively those who are beginning -- note that I am still beginning to some extent! -- and help them learn responsible vs irresponsible techniques (this is specifically addressed to those who are already, to some extent a part of the game rather than bringing totally new people in), the better off the hobby will be as a whole. Can't stop the growth but ya can help it grow up well!

[+hukilaulau]

I pretty much disagree with the general concensus here. There are still (relatively) very few people who join the game to find the caches I am interested in. And I frankly don't care if half a million people are swarming the shopping malls to find hide-a-key and lamp post caches. I know I will NEVER see those people in the woods even if there are five dollar bills in all new caches, no matter how many seminars they've been to.

Not that there's anything wrong with that! As has been said many times, there are all kinds of different ways to play the game. I just think it's a little grandiose to believe we're anywhere near overexposure. Anything that gets people outside a little more is OK with me. I'm hopeful enough that I think geocaching might get some people out of the door, but cynical enough to believe that only a few of them will ever leave the sidewalk.

[+mrbort]

I pretty much disagree with the general concensus here. There are still (relatively) very few people who join the game to find the caches I am interested in. And I frankly don't care if half a million people are swarming the shopping malls to find hide-a-key and lamp post caches. I know I will NEVER see those people in the woods even if there are five dollar bills in all new caches, no matter how many seminars they've been to.

Not that there's anything wrong with that! As has been said many times, there are all kinds of different ways to play the game. I just think it's a little grandiose to believe we're anywhere near overexposure. Anything that gets people outside a little more is OK with me. I'm hopeful enough that I think geocaching might get some people out of the door, but cynical enough to believe that only a few of them will ever leave the sidewalk.

 

I'm in agreement with you here; the issue for me is how to get the swarming masses in the shopping centers etc to be responsible with their activities because in the end, their actions paint every geocacher with the same brush and can impact the public perception and consequently the areas in which we are allowed to place caches.

[+Allanon]

Thoughts?

I refuse to comment on the grounds that it would incriminate you...

[+DatCrazyMongoose]

I'm not so concerned about geocaching classes or seminars. As it's been pointed out we need the fresh blood to keep things lively.

 

I'm much more concerned with geocachers reaching out to government agencies. For someone without experience dealing with bureaucracies the process can and usually does backfire resulting in permit systems or bans.

 

If it's a big enough problem that they have to attend a class or seminar to manage it...manage it they will.

I have to agree with you on this one. I think the less "they" know about geocaching, the better. It is, after all, a hobby of hiding and seeking. If "they" are threatened by the hiding aspect, the hobby could become regulated out of existence due to an ignorant fear of it. Take the National Parks, for example. The NPS should be thrilled to get more people visiting and appreciating its lands and services, but instead you get fear and a resulting ban. The lands they manage belong to every American by virtue of taxes paid, yet they regulate the way you use those lands. The same could happen to every public place in the country. All it takes is one ignorant person on the right board or council to put an end to it all.

 

I'm all for sharing the hobby with your friends, but I draw the line at involving government bureaucracies. Where they are concerned, I apply the "easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission" philosophy.

 

'Goose

[+DatCrazyMongoose]

CoyoteRed just posted the statement, "Our only security is obscurity" in another thread. It just so happens that I agree 100%, yet I am constantly seeing geocaching (organizations in particular) reaching out to both individuals and organizations, with geocaching semiars, etc.

 

It has long been my personal experience that anyone that really wants to learn about something enough to stick with it will figure out how to learn, and does not need classes, seminars, etc. Sure... they may find a cache or more, but will not likely stick with it over the long haul.

 

In my opinion and experience, publicizing our activity only brings scrutiny and policies and regulation, as well as a new wave of (mostly) fair weather cachers.

 

Yes, there are exceptions to my last inference. But for the most part, I am very much in favor (although its too late) of obsurity over popularity. Thoughts?

Great topic and post!

I think the only area of geocaching that should reach out to "them" is CITO. Contact an official for the area you want to clean up, and tell them you are part of Geocaching and want to volunteer your time to clean up. No need to go into details about the hobby. Keep it simple and relevant to the task at hand. The less they know, the better.

[+briansnat]

In my opinion and experience, publicizing our activity only brings scrutiny and policies and regulation, as well as a new wave of (mostly) fair weather cachers.

 

The clam has been out of the bag for some time. Most land managers already know about geocaching.

 

In reality a good deal of the regulations and policies came about when we were supposedly underground. The NPS ban dates to the early days of geocaching. NY state's DEC banned geocaching about 2002 (and lifted the ban several years later) and numerous other state and local agencies moved to ban the sport in its early days.

 

It's only as geocaching has begun to enter the mainstream that our image is changing and many agencies are embracing the sport. It's now viewed as a legitimate outdoor activity in many places. Though that has brought more policies and regulations, many of those policies and regulations tend to be favorable toward geocaching.

 

I compare geocaching to mountain biking in a way. 15-20 years ago monutain bikers were looked upon as a scourge by many land managers. Mountain bikers have gone through great lengths to change their image and are now considered partners by many agencies. They achieved this by contributing to trail work and litter cleanup efforts up and working closely with local, state and federal agencies. As the sport morphed from a small, underground group into a mainstream activity their image has improved. A model we would do well to follow.

 

The only downside of our sport growing is that there will be more clods ande jerks joining our ranks. The percentage will always be small, but as the number of geocachers grow, so will their numbers.

 

Our worst enemy are those people who heard about geocaching and form opinions about it without any first hand experience. The more people who learn about it and understand it, the better it is for us.

 

We can hide in the closet all we want, but the closet door has already been taken off the hinges.

[+DatCrazyMongoose]

In my opinion and experience, publicizing our activity only brings scrutiny and policies and regulation, as well as a new wave of (mostly) fair weather cachers.

 

The clam has been out of the bag for some time. Most land managers already know about geocaching.

 

In reality a good deal of the regulations and policies came about when we were supposedly underground. The NPS ban dates to the early days of geocaching. NY state's DEC banned geocaching about 2002 (and lifted the ban several years later) and numerous other state and local agencies moved to ban the sport in its early days.

 

It's only as geocaching has begun to enter the mainstream that our image is changing and many agencies are embracing the sport. It's now viewed as a legitimate outdoor activity in many places. Though that has brought more policies and regulations, many of those policies and regulations tend to be favorable toward geocaching.

 

I compare geocaching to mountain biking in a way. 15-20 years ago monutain bikers were looked upon as a scourge by many land managers. Mountain bikers have gone through great lengths to change their image and are now considered partners by many agencies. They achieved this by contributing to trail work and litter cleanup efforts up and working closely with local, state and federal agencies. As the sport morphed from a small, underground group into a mainstream activity their image has improved. A model we would do well to follow.

 

The only downside of our sport growing is that there will be more clods ande jerks joining our ranks. The percentage will always be small, but as the number of geocachers grow, so will their numbers.

 

Our worst enemy are those people who heard about geocaching and form opinions about it without any first hand experience. The more people who learn about it and understand it, the better it is for us.

 

We can hide in the closet all we want, but the closet door has already been taken off the hinges.

Well, I hope the NPS decides to take another look at this soon. Would a CITO event cache be allowed in a National Park? There is no physical container, and the resulting activity couldn't possibly have any negative affects on the land. Letting them know you are doing it might be a good way change that stale image they have of the sport. If it were possible, maybe a coordinated effort for next year's CITO weekend to flood the National Parks with CITO events to show them we mean no harm. Thoughts?

'Goose

[+seattlegeekgrrrlz]

 

Would a CITO event cache be allowed in a National Park?

'Goose

 

We have already had two CITO events at Mt. Rainier National Park here in Washington. So the answer is "yes", but I am sure it will vary by park as it seems like each park superintendent has quite a bit of leeway as to how they manage the park.

 

I think you are on the right track, though, that the more we show we can be good stewards and can be an asset, the more likely it is that we will either get permission for placements, or at least suffer less removal of cache placement priveleges.

[+The Jester]

In my opinion and experience, publicizing our activity only brings scrutiny and policies and regulation, as well as a new wave of (mostly) fair weather cachers.

 

The clam has been out of the bag for some time. Most land managers already know about geocaching.

 

In reality a good deal of the regulations and policies came about when we were supposedly underground. The NPS ban dates to the early days of geocaching. NY state's DEC banned geocaching about 2002 (and lifted the ban several years later) and numerous other state and local agencies moved to ban the sport in its early days.

 

It's only as geocaching has begun to enter the mainstream that our image is changing and many agencies are embracing the sport. It's now viewed as a legitimate outdoor activity in many places. Though that has brought more policies and regulations, many of those policies and regulations tend to be favorable toward geocaching.

 

I compare geocaching to mountain biking in a way. 15-20 years ago monutain bikers were looked upon as a scourge by many land managers. Mountain bikers have gone through great lengths to change their image and are now considered partners by many agencies. They achieved this by contributing to trail work and litter cleanup efforts up and working closely with local, state and federal agencies. As the sport morphed from a small, underground group into a mainstream activity their image has improved. A model we would do well to follow.

 

The only downside of our sport growing is that there will be more clods ande jerks joining our ranks. The percentage will always be small, but as the number of geocachers grow, so will their numbers.

 

Our worst enemy are those people who heard about geocaching and form opinions about it without any first hand experience. The more people who learn about it and understand it, the better it is for us.

 

We can hide in the closet all we want, but the closet door has already been taken off the hinges.

Well, I hope the NPS decides to take another look at this soon. Would a CITO event cache be allowed in a National Park? There is no physical container, and the resulting activity couldn't possibly have any negative affects on the land. Letting them know you are doing it might be a good way change that stale image they have of the sport. If it were possible, maybe a coordinated effort for next year's CITO weekend to flood the National Parks with CITO events to show them we mean no harm. Thoughts?

'Goose

We've had a couple of CITO events in Mt Rainier NP - the latest one put on by a caching Ranger. So, yes, they can happen.

[CoyoteRed]

It's only as geocaching has begun to enter the mainstream that our image is changing and many agencies are embracing the sport. It's now viewed as a legitimate outdoor activity in many places. Though that has brought more policies and regulations, many of those policies and regulations tend to be favorable toward geocaching.

 

I compare geocaching to mountain biking in a way. 15-20 years ago monutain bikers were looked upon as a scourge by many land managers. Mountain bikers have gone through great lengths to change their image and are now considered partners by many agencies. They achieved this by contributing to trail work and litter cleanup efforts up and working closely with local, state and federal agencies. As the sport morphed from a small, underground group into a mainstream activity their image has improved. A model we would do well to follow.

Agreed!

 

The only downside of our sport growing is that there will be more clods ande jerks joining our ranks. The percentage will always be small, but as the number of geocachers grow, so will their numbers.

This is the point about obscurity and security. With so many GPSs in the hand everyday folks the technology is readily available. Anyone who thinks it fun to ruin something for someone else can easily take a few caches and could continue to do so until they get bored and move along.

 

This meshes tightly with my saying of "our only security is obscurity." Our caches are hidden for a reason and not just to fool other cachers. Folks are generally curious and will investigate things that look interesting. You only need to read just about any single page of threads on this forum to come across a story of another cache being blown up. The refrain generally, among other things, is "should have hidden the cache better." We also use the term "muggled" to describe a cache comprised by folks who didn't know better--even though, in my experience, plenty of muggles don't do any damage at all.

 

Then add to this the fact there is really no real security regarding our caches. Sure, we can bolt, cable or chain them down, or put a lock on them, but because of the nature of the caching an even only semi-determined maggot, or concerned citizen, could still destroy a cache.

 

It's simply better that few folks know a cache is there.

 

I'm in full agreement that geocaching should be move closer to mainstream--considering there is little hope in keeping an "underground" hobby underground when it's run as a commercial venture--but growth should be maintained and controlled so public acceptance can keep up.

 

However, even when geocaching jumps the shark, security through obscurity will continue to be an important element.

[CoyoteRed]

Well, I hope the NPS decides to take another look at this soon.

NPS already allows caching on its lands. There are fully authorized caches in NPs. It's up to the individual park and managers.

 

Don't go trying to sneak one in, though. There is list of several Federal charges for unauthorized caches.

[+Snoogans]

I agree completely.... The game has lost the "thrill" factor.... FOR ME.

 

There. I fixed your post.

 

.... and whose fault is THAT?

[+whistler & co.]

....the issue for me is how to get the swarming masses in the shopping centers etc to be responsible with their activities because in the end, their actions paint every geocacher with the same brush and can impact the public perception and consequently the areas in which we are allowed to place caches.

 

This is exactly what I have been kvetching about for a while now, both here and on our local geocaching forum (NEPAG). It's not the guy climbing a tree or poking around in the underbrush out in the woods that attracts unwanted attention, it's the family of five that jumps out of the car (wielding Geomate.Jr's, perhaps?), troops en masse to the shrubbery near the McDonald's drive-up ordering station, starts poking their heads into the bushes and lifting rocks in the landscaping, then screeches "I found it! I found it!" when they locate that Gladware masquerading as a "convenient to the highway TB hotel" someone who's been caching for two weeks and has one find has placed (without permission of the facility manager, by the way). The actions of ALL cachers affect the collective reputation of all cachers. It's the family in the bushes that the general public sees, so it is from their actions that the general public develops its opinion of caching.

[+Totem Clan]

If there is anywhere where geocaching is still an 'underground' activity it is in North Dakota. Here in North Dakota geocaching was just banned in all WMA lands. It was banned because it is a misunderstood activity. DOT also prohibits it. Our only hope from have it banned in even more areas is to form a group that can and will lobby for our rights here in the state. I'm not saying we start advertising geocaching, but we can't hide anymore.

 

I say the door is not only off the hinges, but that the closet walls have been ripped away. You can run and hide like roaches or you can stand up for your rights.

[+Maingray]

I disagree and think that's a naive view; it's already in the mainstream and we need GOOD well-crafted relationships with state / national orgs to make it accepted and UNDERSTOOD. Think mountain biking and state parks.

 

No-one likes cliques or "secret gangs", so we need to be very careful with people who set the rules.

 

We had growth in the early days (admittedly before my time), but the word was spread in relatively obscure media (Originally, USENET) that only a select few had access to. Yet the concept had enough inate appeal to turn statis into growth. And that growth continued. And it continues to this day. My fear is that the growth will, like algae in a pond, eventually suck the oxygen right out of the water and block the sunlight from its own photosynthesis. We become accepted, known, poplular, like Wonder Bread. Oh, how boring!

 

No.. USENET maybe in the first few months, but I certainly remember TV news segments and newspaper interest in 2002+. I got into it through a TV show in 2002.

 

Its as only as boring as you make it. I still love all hide varieties and love when new cachers in the area start up. It would be very boring if the same people were hiding and finding year in, year out.

 

I doubt mountain bikers think it's boring although that's hardly an underground activity.

 

To extend your analogy, algae only have a problem in a small tank. They are fine in an ocean. We need to make sure we have the room to carry on playing.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Maingray

[Quizes]

The state of New Mexico is a shining example of the geocaching community and land managers working together.

 

All New Mexico state parks have at least one geocache. For the 75 anniversary of the NM park system, a special cache was placed in each park. Cachers who completed the challenge of finding all 34 diamond jubilee caches were awarded a prize and were in a drawing for some larger prizes.

 

My experience is that NM park rangers want you to find the caches in their park, and willingly help point you in the right direction. They even help with cache maintenance.

 

That relationship is the perfect marriage of conservation, responsibility and fun. We should all look to the folks in NM and learn from their success.

[knowschad]

I doubt mountain bikers think it's boring although that's hardly an underground activity.

 

I'm picturing one particular dedicated mountain bike park in my area. Miles of twisty-turny trails and hills for the mountain bikers... one mountain biker after another mountain biker after another, each one going as fast as they can so they don't get run over by those coming up behind them. That doesn't give them much opportunity to enjoy the surroundings.

 

Maybe someday we can have dedicated geocaching parks, too.

[+Maingray]

I doubt mountain bikers think it's boring although that's hardly an underground activity.

 

I'm picturing one particular dedicated mountain bike park in my area. Miles of twisty-turny trails and hills for the mountain bikers... one mountain biker after another mountain biker after another, each one going as fast as they can so they don't get run over by those coming up behind them. That doesn't give them much opportunity to enjoy the surroundings.

 

Maybe someday we can have dedicated geocaching parks, too.

 

So keep quiet about caching to people. Pretend you are on your cell phone whilst searching for caches. Lobby your state caching org to stop working with land agencies. Stop getting permission to place a cache. Great way to do it.

 

It's a great hobby and I ain't gonna keep quiet about it to people.

[+ReadyOrNot]

I agree completely.... The game has lost the "thrill" factor.... FOR ME.

 

There. I fixed your post.

 

.... and whose fault is THAT?

 

You are the master of the obvious aren't you... Who else would I be talking about?

 

When the website adds the promised feature of a viable method to find highly rated caches, I'll probably cache a lot more... I've taken about a year long break from caching and poked around this last weekend and was amazed at how much worse the problem has gotten. I just don't have the time to spend hours preparing and researching to find the good ones...

 

I don't think I blamed anyone did I? You assume a lot grasshopper.

[+StarBrand]

In the back of my mind I've always held the speculation that our little activity will reach a point at sometime in the future where cache maggots are removing significant numbers of caches. Sort of a critical mass kind of thing. Not because we promote the activity or hold siminars or seek publicity. What is very slowly happening is that our little gadgets are becoming so very commonplace that already large numbers of people own a GPS of some kind. That number will continue to grow and expand and the units will become ever more sophisticated. At some point, these people will start to realize the power and potential of what they already own and use.

 

Combine that with easily available information about caching/ tools for caching and our numbers will explode. Most will be one time cachers or maybe a handful of outings. They will get bored and disappear. However, the dark underbelly of our society will start caching in ever greater numbers. Those that think it is "funny" to mess with a cache. Those that will do vile things to caches for a sick laugh. Those that will steal or try to get revenge. Those that champion environmental causes will remove them to "save" the planet. This will drive many honest cachers out of the game. Caches will disappear in great numbers and the amount of Geocaching restrictions and bans will start to rise quickly. Eventually, I think, things will settle back down to the hard core cachers and mostly just remote caches. Those few will enjoy it but we will be forced to get highly selective about who gets what information.

 

The technology that makes all this possible - will also be its undoing. But I think this dark scenario is still quite a ways off.....

[+Snoogans]

In the back of my mind I've always held the speculation that our little activity will reach a point at sometime in the future where cache maggots are removing significant numbers of caches. Sort of a critical mass kind of thing. Not because we promote the activity or hold siminars or seek publicity. What is very slowly happening is that our little gadgets are becoming so very commonplace that already large numbers of people own a GPS of some kind. That number will continue to grow and expand and the units will become ever more sophisticated. At some point, these people will start to realize the power and potential of what they already own and use.

 

Combine that with easily available information about caching/ tools for caching and our numbers will explode. Most will be one time cachers or maybe a handful of outings. They will get bored and disappear. However, the dark underbelly of our society will start caching in ever greater numbers. Those that think it is "funny" to mess with a cache. Those that will do vile things to caches for a sick laugh. Those that will steal or try to get revenge. Those that champion environmental causes will remove them to "save" the planet. This will drive many honest cachers out of the game. Caches will disappear in great numbers and the amount of Geocaching restrictions and bans will start to rise quickly. Eventually, I think, things will settle back down to the hard core cachers and mostly just remote caches. Those few will enjoy it but we will be forced to get highly selective about who gets what information.

 

The technology that makes all this possible - will also be its undoing. But I think this dark scenario is still quite a ways off.....

 

It sounds like you're talkin' 'bout some sort of Mainstream Event Horizon.

[+Renegade Knight]

I'm not so concerned about geocaching classes or seminars. As it's been pointed out we need the fresh blood to keep things lively.

 

I'm much more concerned with geocachers reaching out to government agencies. For someone without experience dealing with bureaucracies the process can and usually does backfire resulting in permit systems or bans. ...

 

That's my fear as well.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Edited June 23, 2009 by Renegade Knight

[GOF and Bacall]

...

Can I quote you on that?

[namiboy]

what is the definition of 'fair weather cachers'? someone that has only 61 finds in 3 years? and what is wrong with them?

[+StarBrand]

what is the definition of 'fair weather cachers'? someone that has only 61 finds in 3 years? and what is wrong with them?

In the context of the OP - I'd say the definition is a cacher that goes out and find 20 - 30 caches over 2 or 3 trips in a month - maybe hides 1 or 2 and then just fades away - never to geocache again.

[knowschad]

what is the definition of 'fair weather cachers'? someone that has only 61 finds in 3 years? and what is wrong with them?

 

Actually, an unfortunate choice of words. There is nothing wrong with that.

[+Snoogans]

I'm not so concerned about geocaching classes or seminars. As it's been pointed out we need the fresh blood to keep things lively.

 

I'm much more concerned with geocachers reaching out to government agencies. For someone without experience dealing with bureaucracies the process can and usually does backfire resulting in permit systems or bans. ...

 

That's my fear as well.

 

Often times reaching out to a government agency is the proper path to get permission to hide a cache.

 

I did this and in so doing got approval for ALL parks in the Houston metro area. That's hundreds of suburban parks surrounding the city.

 

It's not WHAT you say so much as how you say it, but the real trick in these situations is be able to answer the hard questions in stride and without hesitation when they are asked.

[+Dgwphotos]

In my opinion and experience, publicizing our activity only brings scrutiny and policies and regulation, as well as a new wave of (mostly) fair weather cachers.

 

The clam has been out of the bag for some time. Most land managers already know about geocaching.

 

In reality a good deal of the regulations and policies came about when we were supposedly underground. The NPS ban dates to the early days of geocaching. NY state's DEC banned geocaching about 2002 (and lifted the ban several years later) and numerous other state and local agencies moved to ban the sport in its early days.

 

It's only as geocaching has begun to enter the mainstream that our image is changing and many agencies are embracing the sport. It's now viewed as a legitimate outdoor activity in many places. Though that has brought more policies and regulations, many of those policies and regulations tend to be favorable toward geocaching.

 

I compare geocaching to mountain biking in a way. 15-20 years ago monutain bikers were looked upon as a scourge by many land managers. Mountain bikers have gone through great lengths to change their image and are now considered partners by many agencies. They achieved this by contributing to trail work and litter cleanup efforts up and working closely with local, state and federal agencies. As the sport morphed from a small, underground group into a mainstream activity their image has improved. A model we would do well to follow.

 

The only downside of our sport growing is that there will be more clods ande jerks joining our ranks. The percentage will always be small, but as the number of geocachers grow, so will their numbers.

 

Our worst enemy are those people who heard about geocaching and form opinions about it without any first hand experience. The more people who learn about it and understand it, the better it is for us.

 

We can hide in the closet all we want, but the closet door has already been taken off the hinges.

Well, I hope the NPS decides to take another look at this soon. Would a CITO event cache be allowed in a National Park? There is no physical container, and the resulting activity couldn't possibly have any negative affects on the land. Letting them know you are doing it might be a good way change that stale image they have of the sport. If it were possible, maybe a coordinated effort for next year's CITO weekend to flood the National Parks with CITO events to show them we mean no harm. Thoughts?

'Goose

We've had a couple of CITO events in Mt Rainier NP - the latest one put on by a caching Ranger. So, yes, they can happen.

 

We also have Earthcaches in North Cascades NP.

[+whistler & co.]

what is the definition of 'fair weather cachers'? someone that has only 61 finds in 3 years? and what is wrong with them?

 

There's nothing at all wrong with 61 finds in three years, or even 6 finds in three years. People are welcome to find as many or as few as they want. The problem only develops when (a) the occasional cacher grabs trackable items from caches then waits months to place them in other caches, and/or (b ) the occasional cacher hides a cache then only logs onto the site once every three months but acts surprised and insulted when three months' worth of DNF and Needs Maintenance logs result in a reviewer archiving his cache, and/or (c ) the occasional cacher hides one or more ill-conceived caches with poor coords, shoddy containers, and problematic locations only to vanish completely two weeks later, leaving the other members of the caching community to start the archival process and to physically remove the caches and placate the irate neighbors, land managers, or property owners. As long as a person sticks to finding, they can be as "fair-weather" as they want. Once they start hiding, they need to buckle down and shows some responsibility!

 

Edited to add: I used "occasional" rather than "fair weather" because I think it's a more accurate and less loaded term!

Edited June 23, 2009 by whistler & co.

[+geodarts]

Well, I hope the NPS decides to take another look at this soon.

 

The NPS gives discretion to local park managers on whether to allow caching. In fact, the policy encourages

cachers to come out of the closet:

 

"Generally, discussion and communication about regulations and policies should be used as an

opportunity to educate GPS user groups about the national park system and for NPS staff to

become educated about view held by the user groups. It is in our interest to establish ongoing

and personal communication with the GPS user community, as we have with other park visitors."

 

The more opportunities for park managers to see caching as a mainstream activity that will not harm the environment, the easier it will be to gain acceptance in more of the parks.

 

http://www.funoutdoors.com/files/GPS%20guidance.pdf

[+9Key]

what is the definition of 'fair weather cachers'? someone that has only 61 finds in 3 years? and what is wrong with them?

In the context of the OP - I'd say the definition is a cacher that goes out and find 20 - 30 caches over 2 or 3 trips in a month - maybe hides 1 or 2 and then just fades away - never to geocache again.

A bit off topic, but I call them "pigeon cachers". They fly in from out of no where, make a mess, then disappear.

[+DanOCan]

We should have closed the doors on Geocaching the day AFTER I joined.

[sharkman8810]

I am of the opinion that the cat is out of the bag, and going to get alot worse. Bass Pro, and i am sure other stores is selling geocaching in a way. They sell the gps, and do seminars on how to geocache. The good with the bad, is if done right, they can help with access and there ability to promote it to landmanagers as eco friendly. A favorite government term is public-private partnership i.e. gov't or taxpayers don't have the cash for a pet project so lets get a special interest group to help pay for it, and i am sure bass pro gets hit up for this type stuff all the time. They can say, do you let people geocache, we give our money to places that allow this. I am waiting for things like the bass pro geo-challenge, or the cabella's geocache challenge. I bought a gps for hunting in unfamiliar forest, and hiking, then discovered geocaching. It is fun and i do it for mostly hiking caches, i am not into the C and D much, but will go to a good municipal park, especially if i have my daughter along. As i am occassional and do it whenever, i don't hide caches, or touch trackables, as i find the "paperwork" confusing. I hope i didn't ramble to badly. sharkman

[+Renegade Knight]

....

Often times reaching out to a government agency is the proper path to get permission to hide a cache.

 

I did this and in so doing got approval for ALL parks in the Houston metro area. That's hundreds of suburban parks surrounding the city.

 

It's not WHAT you say so much as how you say it, but the real trick in these situations is be able to answer the hard questions in stride and without hesitation when they are asked.

Exactly. Still, for every truly capable person who can do this there are half a dozen who merely think they can, and are eager to prove it to the detriment of us all.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Most of this appears to be about two basic personality traits... selfish vs. selfless.

 

Some find something cool and want to keep it to/for themselves, others find something cool and want to share it with everyone.

 

I fall into the latter group... I share geocaching (and ham radio, and the joy of volunteerism) with everyone I talk to! I teach Geocaching 101 classes at events, we have classes every Saturday at the local Bass Pro Shop, I volunteer to man geocaching booths at public events and schools... in fact few conversations don't include mention of the game. I invite everyone to try it!

 

No negative consequences so far... geocaching is great in Alabama!

 

The sky-is-falling we'll-be-banned arguments appear to be excuses for being selfish and keeping it unchanged and 'under the radar' (closed).

 

We did have a State Park permit system invoked upon us because of cachers who just couldn't bring themselves to get permission, but that system works quite well and benefits everyone.

[CoyoteRed]

No negative consequences so far... geocaching is great in Alabama!

I would suggest caching as a whole is not the only way to look at it. It's how individual caches are effected.

 

While it's great to see the "health of geocaching" (depending how that is measured) in great shape, it doesn't take much to have a cache compromised or a TB go missing. Any single cache might not do much to the geocaching health of an area, but it was important to that owner.

[knowschad]

what is the definition of 'fair weather cachers'? someone that has only 61 finds in 3 years? and what is wrong with them?

 

There's nothing at all wrong with 61 finds in three years, or even 6 finds in three years. People are welcome to find as many or as few as they want. The problem only develops when (a) the occasional cacher grabs trackable items from caches then waits months to place them in other caches, and/or (b ) the occasional cacher hides a cache then only logs onto the site once every three months but acts surprised and insulted when three months' worth of DNF and Needs Maintenance logs result in a reviewer archiving his cache, and/or (c ) the occasional cacher hides one or more ill-conceived caches with poor coords, shoddy containers, and problematic locations only to vanish completely two weeks later, leaving the other members of the caching community to start the archival process and to physically remove the caches and placate the irate neighbors, land managers, or property owners. As long as a person sticks to finding, they can be as "fair-weather" as they want. Once they start hiding, they need to buckle down and shows some responsibility!

 

Edited to add: I used "occasional" rather than "fair weather" because I think it's a more accurate and less loaded term!

 

That is exactly what I meant by my unfortunate term of "fair weather" cacher. Abandoned hides, lost TBs, and so on.

[knowschad]

We should have closed the doors on Geocaching the day AFTER I joined.

 

The door was closed when you joined. It wasn't locked, though. You took the initiative to open the door for yourself. It wasn't simply held open for you and any casual observer to walk through. Big difference there. Sure, occasionally the "casual observer" will take an active interest and stick with it, but I think that those are the people that would have become involved anyway.