Hiding caches: The Personal "Why?"

[CoyoteRed]

After a few days of the two recent threads about logging caches--Don't use my cache for your challenge and Poor logs deleted--there was a thought that struck me about the attitudes of some of the posters. This is different than the subjects of the threads so I decided to start a new one.

 

The thought was that it seemed to me that many of the posters' first thought when placing a cache wasn't whether a finder would enjoy their cache. This thought was spurred by tozainamboku's comment "This sense of entitlement should not be a part of cache ownership." That was counter to comments like "So what?" in response to not getting a log that recognizes the cache. It seems as though there are two competing schools of thought in these threads. One says that cache owners should expect finders to heap praise on their caches while the other doesn't seem to give a dadgum what it said. Both of these seem to boil down to two sides of the same coin and that is ego gratification without regards to others. Mostly.

 

The ones that don't care about what the logs say do sometimes fit into a different category and it still doesn't present them in a good light, IMHO. Some will hide caches to get cache populations up, to hide a cache that fits a certain criteria like the cache name or the town name starts with a certain letter, or as simply to provide nothing more than a smilie. No ego directly associated with those reasons, but still the focus is not on the finders enjoying the cache.

 

While I'm loathe to use the word "gift" because the hijacking of the word by folks who place "gifts of the smilie," I view a cache placement as a gift. It's my gift to the caching community. Sure I take pride on my gift giving as I always want to present something the recipient will like, use, and enjoy. It's the same with placing a cache. I want folks to enjoy it.

 

However, with the thought in mind that my gift giving to the geocaching community is one-to-many affair, I know I can't please everyone. Kind of like giving a gift to a couple, which one do you want to please more--the guy or the girl? You try to please one while trying not to dis-please the other. In geocaching, you try to please the folks who you relate to more.

 

Now, with any gift giving you're hoping the recipient is going to like the gift. You watch as they open it and watch their face. You have feedback on whether you chose wisely or poorly. You feel good when the gift is a hit and poorly if it bombs. I know I do.

 

I suppose from reading these threads that there are some folks who don't give a darn one way or the other if the recipient likes the gift. They fulfilled their obligation of giving them something and to heck if they like it or not. I guess some people are just that way.

 

I'm not the type of person who is going to demand that someone wear that god-awful tie every day until to turns to dust, but I am the type that if I give a nice new PDA I'd be a little hurt if the recipient uses it for nothing more than to steady a wobbly table. It seems some here would not see the problem with either of those.

 

I personally see placing a cache as an expression of self or an art form. And I see it as a gift to the community. Sort of like creating art for the community. I know not everyone is going to like it and that's perfectly fine, but it is there for your enjoyment. It's not there to simply for me to say I've done x number of pieces or you to say "yep, seen it" and now I've seen x number of pieces.

 

So, when I place a cache, like when I give a gift, I'm looking for feedback as to how well I did. If I don't get feedback that indicates the finders enjoyed the cache, I'm disappointed that I didn't provide an enjoyable cache for them. If I get feedback that folks are "fixing a wobbly table," I'm disappointed because that's not the reason I provided the cache. Sure, I get an ego boost when I get a good log, but good logs isn't the reason I place caches. I place caches to entertain others. The good logs follow and that is when I know I did a good job.

 

I don't demand certain feedback, but would like that you to experience the cache on an individual basis. Treat it for what it is, a gift. Not a smilie, a stat, or a stepping stone, but something I placed as an attempt to entertain you. Maybe, that's the reason I get a bit upset at some much of the trache that is out there as it seems there was no thought in the gift. They didn't put in any effort to entertain and placed it for other reasons.

 

This is certainly an interesting difference in trains of thought.

[knowschad]

One says that cache owners should expect finders to heap praise on their caches

I didn't see anybody saying that except as arguments by those on the "so what" side. What I saw coming from the "I care about good logs" side (which is where I stand) pretty much agrees with you:

 

Sure, I get an ego boost when I get a good log, but good logs isn't the reason I place caches. I place caches to entertain others. The good logs follow and that is when I know I did a good job.

[+gpsfun]

This is a very thoughtful essay and I thank you for it. I look forward to some interesting discussion.

 

I hope the use of the word "gift" does not become a distraction. Since I have a particular paradigm around that word in mind, I took a look at Wikipedia to see how the word is treated there. I found this:

A gift or a present is the transfer of something, without the need for compensation that is involved in trade. A gift is a voluntary act which does not require anything in return. Even though it involves possibly a social expectation of reciprocity, or a return in the form of prestige or power, a gift is meant to be free.

 

Personally I think it is fine for a cache owner to have some expectations in mind when they place a cache. I have only a few caches active right now and I like to see the logs that mention a unique hide style, an out of the way interesting location or some educational value to them. While I put them out for others to find, there is a very strong component of self-interest in the feedback I receive involved. I would not call them gifts, but maybe that's just me.

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

I am a very inexperienced person here, however, we recently hit 100 finds. At this point it seems to me that we have the following choices:

 

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

 

The second seems to me to be the ethical choice.

 

Given that, the issue is really how can we help? What can we do? Or more precisely what can we do that will fit with our personalities, knowledge, and experience and won't cause us to run screaming for the door? If we can find something that we enjoy doing, all the better.

 

One thing we can do is place a nice hide, something that would bring pleasure to other people and something that helps build the community of good caches. I don't really see a hide as a gift to individual cachers. I see it as a building block within the community. It is kind of like planting trees. It is something you do because it helps you build the world you want to live in, even if it won 't benefit you directly. Each person does something that helps build the world. But no one does exactly the same things at the same times and that is the way it should be.

 

I do not know how I will feel about TFTC! logs. I like well-written personal logs with photos in the same way I enjoy adventure travel books. I adore reading other people's logs. But I think it is important to me personally to have some things in my life that I let go of, that I do without expectations or do anonymously. Placing a box filled with pretty things in the wilderness seems like that sort of activity to me.

 

Carolyn

[+Renegade Knight]

...The thought was that it seemed to me that many of the posters' first thought when placing a cache wasn't whether a finder would enjoy their cache. ...

 

To shed some light on one angle of ownership I think it's easiest to think of an artist and all the controversy over "is that art", "Selling out", "following the muse", "pop art is crap", blah blah blah.

 

I am a selfish rat bastard when it comes to my caches. I follow my muse. If it says "create the worst possible cache you can think up" then by gosh that's my next cache. Sometimes my muse says "create a ghost story using UV Footprints flesh out the details and wait for the time when you find a location to match the cache." Been there done that. Got it ready to go. Sometimes my muse simply says. "Hey, nice spot, worthy of a cache, you should place one." Each cache has a certain experience that's intended. If that experience isn't what's really happening then it's not any fun to own because it's a failure.

 

Logs are the only way I can tell if a cache is working or not. If it's working, it's enjoyable to own. I don't mind a cache that fails. I archive it. Sometimes it's annoying that the reason for the failure is that I didn't property allow for the Phone a Friend network or some other finder behavior.

 

There are some recent trends that get in the way of my intended experience so that even if the cache is working, for some, it can't, and thus my enjoyment has less potential on the up side.

[+KBI]

If I get feedback that folks are "fixing a wobbly table," I'm disappointed because that's not the reason I provided the cache. Sure, I get an ego boost when I get a good log, but good logs isn't the reason I place caches. I place caches to entertain others. The good logs follow and that is when I know I did a good job.

This is confusing to me. How do you know when someone is not being entertained?

 

Some cachers are entertained by watching their find count ratchet ever upward. Some cachers are entertained by conquering large-scale cache challenges. Some cachers are entertained by trying to break their personal finds-per-day record. Some cachers are entertained by having any excuse to play with a GPS. Some cachers are entertained by competing with other cachers for the most smilies, the most states, the most difficulty stars – or maybe even who can be the first to log a find on every single CoyoteRed cache.

 

Every one of those forms of entertainment is legitimate. Every one of those cachers is being entertained whenever he finds your cache.

 

Of course, some cachers are entertained by finding caches, period. The online logging of their finds is not really part of the fun for them, but is instead merely an incidental/procedural requirement. Analogy: I, personally, get my rocks off researching and shopping whenever I buy a new GPS. I put tons of happy time into it, but for some folks that’s not really any fun for them at all, just a necessary step to get them to the geocaches. Do you suppose the accountants at Garmin take umbrage at the occasional lack of glee among their customers?

 

I enjoy writing logs that entertain me. If my logs happen to entertain others that’s great, but I understand that not everyone loves my humor and prose. I enjoy complimenting hiders on a good hide, but I’ve never felt such an ego stroke was a requirement. My logs are for me.

 

Some cachers go further, merely using their logs to document the raw data of their activity, never wasting their time writing anything beyond a few basic facts. They may even write nothing more than "TNLN." That's fine by be. I know for a fact that a significant percentage of cachers enjoy their cache finds far more than their online logs would indicate. I take no offense at that; I hid the cache and they found it. For what reason would I automatically assume they experienced drudgery or pain? Last time I checked, all caching is voluntary. To me, continued caching on the part of any individual indicates either continued enjoyment, or in some rare cases, insanity. (Or both.)

 

There is no published standard for complementariness or entertainment quality when it comes to writing one's online logs, and that’s exactly as it should be. Do you really want people writing fluffy things about your caches just because they feel that are required to?

 

Some will hide caches to get cache populations up, to hide a cache that fits a certain criteria like the cache name or the town name starts with a certain letter, or as simply to provide nothing more than a smilie. No ego directly associated with those reasons, but still the focus is not on the finders enjoying the cache.

Who says everyone has to enjoy the hobby exactly the same way you do? Can’t you see that there is a wide variety of perfectly acceptable preferences when it comes to other people’s fun-having? How can you say those hiders and finders are NOT enjoying those caches you describe? Again, what makes you think anyone would participate in this hobby at all if they were not enjoying themselves?

 

I don't demand certain feedback, but would like that you to experience the cache on an individual basis. Treat it for what it is, a gift. Not a smilie, a stat, or a stepping stone, but something I placed as an attempt to entertain you.

Again, who are you (or I, or anyone else for that matter) to tell others which version of this hobby is the "correct" one? If the only reason a particular cacher logs your cache is to check off a box for a multi-state challenge, then did you not succeed in your attempt at entertaining that person? Seriously, I'd be very interested in a response to that question.

[+KBI]

Maybe, that's the reason I get a bit upset at some much of the trache that is out there as it seems there was no thought in the gift. They didn't put in any effort to entertain and placed it for other reasons.

Just because a cache doesn’t please CoyoteRed doesn’t make it trash.

 

Your repeated requests for people to show greater respect for your own caches will have a lot more credibility when you learn to stop broadly and rudely insulting caches that other people are clearly enjoying.

 

Just a suggestion.

[+briansnat]

My caches are placed for people to enjoy. How they derive their enjoyment from it is none of my business as log as it doesn't impact the cache or its surroundings.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Again, who are you (or I, or anyone else for that matter) to tell others which version of this hobby is the "correct" one? If the only reason a particular cacher logs your cache is to check off a box for a multi-state challenge, then did you not succeed in your attempt at entertaining that person? Seriously, I'd be very interested in a response to that question.

If you truly believe this why would you ever presume to tell a cache owner anything?

However for the sake of argument the asnwer to the last question is as simple as saying, if that owner feels that the checklist method of finds is a failure, then their fun, and that cache is failing. It's as simple as that.

 

If you embrace the right of of people to enjoy "their own game" alas, that means owners have their own game and since they own the cache their fun as an owner, rather trumps the wishes of the finders for the fate of the cache.

[+Kit Fox]

While I'm loathe to use the word "gift" because the hijacking of the word by folks who place "gifts of the smilie," I view a cache placement as a gift. It's my gift to the caching community. Sure I take pride on my gift giving as I always want to present something the recipient will like, use, and enjoy. It's the same with placing a cache. I want folks to enjoy it.

 

I give back to the community by hiding the type of caches that I like to find. Call me an elitist, but i've grown tired of lame caches in lame locations, so therefore I will never again hide this type of geocache. I tend to read the "power cacher cut and paste logs" on my original caches, with disdain (a feeling of contempt for someone or something regarded as unworthy or inferior ). This is only my personal opinion but, it is my fault for placing caches that are easily accessible to cachers who frequently write logs I consider lame.

 

In the last few years of caching, my hides were mostly placed in remote areas requiring: Good boots, high levels of physical fitness, tolerance for pain (tired muscles, possibles scrapes / bruises). 99% of the time, this type of cache is strictly avoided by "cut and paste power cachers." I gear my hides for fellow outdoorsman type geocachers, not the "fast food" style cachers. I prefer reading the logs posted by the outdoorsy style cachers. They almost always bring a camera, and post pictures of what they encountered during their hike. I don't remember ever getting a cut and paste log on any of my remote caches.

 

If I wanted a thousand emails a day, I could easily fill the desert around me with 100s of easy park and grabs, and become a "smilie" hero to power cachers. I don't want to be idolized by power cachers, I would rather my reputation be "that guy that hides great caches in great locations."

[+mertat]

After a few days of the two recent threads about logging caches--Don't use my cache for your challenge and Poor logs deleted--there was a thought that struck me about the attitudes of some of the posters. This is different than the subjects of the threads so I decided to start a new one.

 

The thought was that it seemed to me that many of the posters' first thought when placing a cache wasn't whether a finder would enjoy their cache. This thought was spurred by tozainamboku's comment "This sense of entitlement should not be a part of cache ownership." That was counter to comments like "So what?" in response to not getting a log that recognizes the cache. It seems as though there are two competing schools of thought in these threads. One says that cache owners should expect finders to heap praise on their caches while the other doesn't seem to give a dadgum what it said. Both of these seem to boil down to two sides of the same coin and that is ego gratification without regards to others. Mostly.

 

<snip>

 

I bolded the part I wanted to highlight and reply to.

 

I think this is an oversimplification of the views that were offered in the other threads. While I think these two groups were represented, I also think there were those who posted opinions that fell in a middle ground between these two opposing sides. In my own words, I would express it that while as a cache owner I would love to get good feedback (i.e., a nice log), I’m not going to get my panties in a twist if I get a TNLN. I would hope that you wouldn’t interpret this as not caring about the logs. Rather, it’s that I’m not going to let a TNLN log dilute the enjoyment I got from placing the cache.

[+sbell111]

...Again, who are you (or I, or anyone else for that matter) to tell others which version of this hobby is the "correct" one? If the only reason a particular cacher logs your cache is to check off a box for a multi-state challenge, then did you not succeed in your attempt at entertaining that person? Seriously, I'd be very interested in a response to that question.

If you truly believe this why would you ever presume to tell a cache owner anything?

However for the sake of argument the asnwer to the last question is as simple as saying, if that owner feels that the checklist method of finds is a failure, then their fun, and that cache is failing. It's as simple as that.

 

If you embrace the right of of people to enjoy "their own game" alas, that means owners have their own game and since they own the cache their fun as an owner, rather trumps the wishes of the finders for the fate of the cache.

I couldn't follow the logic in that last paragraph.

 

A cache owner does own his/her cache. He also maintains some ownership to the verbiage of the cache description and he has some amount of control over the logs, as long as he observes the guidelines. He doesn't, however, own the online log of the finder. His 'rights' regarding this log are limited to the ability to delete bogus, abusive, or spoilery logs. Any control over teh logs beyond this would infringe on the 'rights' of the cache finder.

[+cron]

CoyoteRed and Kit Fox, I completely agree with you.

 

Unfortunately, there will always be ruffled feathers when people express their feelings about how geocaching should be (better).

 

Groundspeak is a for-profit company. The more people uses the system, the more caches are created and found, the better the company will be. Point. Don't expect them to support anything that would slow down the business. In fact, expect the opposite.

 

Don't forget the ultimate responsibility is yours. You decide to put a cache out. Unfortunately, when it's out, it becomes "public property". Anybody can decide to look for it and log it the way they want. They can even remove/steal/vandalize it! Rude, but it's possible. It's human nature.

 

If you can't live with the fact that other geocachers will be finding your caches with so many different rationales, some of which are questionnable to you (and me!), then you better not place caches out. With the years, I learnt you'll never be able to change others. This is a lost battle. The only solution is to not place caches and/or remove the ones you placed.

 

Dumbing down? Yes. Unfortunately.

Edited June 18, 2009 by cron

[+KBI]

...Again, who are you (or I, or anyone else for that matter) to tell others which version of this hobby is the "correct" one? If the only reason a particular cacher logs your cache is to check off a box for a multi-state challenge, then did you not succeed in your attempt at entertaining that person? Seriously, I'd be very interested in a response to that question.

If you truly believe this why would you ever presume to tell a cache owner anything?

Sorry, I don’t follow you. Providing an owner with feedback is not the same thing as telling someone their gameplay preference is wrong and therefore unacceptable.

 

However for the sake of argument the asnwer to the last question is as simple as saying, if that owner feels that the checklist method of finds is a failure, then their fun, and that cache is failing. It's as simple as that.

Even if the cache finder was clearly having fun?

 

Sorry, but I still don’t follow you. You seem to be suggesting that each cache hide presents one, and only one, correct and acceptable way for a finder to enjoy finding it – and that if the finder ends up having alternate (and therefore unauthorized) fun, the cache is a failure.

 

Question: If you proudly list a challenging puzzle cache that you enjoyed designing, yet I get much more fun out of climbing up the steep hill to the cache container than I did solving your puzzle, do you consider that a failure? Would you delete my log if I raved about my memorable enjoyment clambering up the embankment without mentioning your puzzle?

 

If you embrace the right of of people to enjoy "their own game" alas, that means owners have their own game and since they own the cache their fun as an owner, rather trumps the wishes of the finders for the fate of the cache.

You misunderstand my position. I’m promoting tolerance, not anarchy.

 

For an owner to delete legitimate logs just because he is disappointed at a perceived lack of adequate praise, is not acceptable. The right of people to enjoy "their own game" does not override the basic guidelines. Nobody in these forums has ever suggested otherwise.

 

If you are suggesting, on the other hand, that each owner has the right to archive his cache as soon as he grows unhappy with the quality of the online logs, then I agree with you 100%. Cranky? Yes. Acceptable? Absolutely. It’s his cache.

 

Which point were you making – or did I miss your point completely?

[+Snoogans]

This is certainly an interesting difference in trains of thought.

 

Ain't it great that we don't ALL think alike?

 

Personally, I never learned much from folks that always agreed with me and I certainly don't shine a bad light on those that do not.

 

I hide caches that please me and my need to participate in my favorite aspect of geocaching: hiding caches.

 

I seem to be lucky that many people agree with me on many, many of the caches I've hidden, but I don't try to convince myself that my motives for hiding are any more noble than that of the hider of a wally world LPC.

 

Participation is it's own reward and that is defined differently by each hider. The fact that their cache was published says a great deal..... To me anyway....

[+bittsen]

Maybe, that's the reason I get a bit upset at some much of the trache that is out there as it seems there was no thought in the gift. They didn't put in any effort to entertain and placed it for other reasons.

Just because a cache doesn’t please CoyoteRed doesn’t make it trash.

 

Your repeated requests for people to show greater respect for your own caches will have a lot more credibility when you learn to stop broadly and rudely insulting caches that other people are clearly enjoying.

 

Just a suggestion.

 

BRAVO!

 

The same can be said about people an their attitudes towards others and the caches they seek.

 

Personally, I enjoy a LPC and I enjoy the mile long uphill hike to crawl down the face of a recent landslide for the beautiful waterfall (did both the same day). Each cache hide has its own merit and it takes a special person to enjoy them in their own way.

For a cacher to label someones cache as "trash" takes an elitist mind. I can guarantee that if all urban caching (ie LMP type caches) were banned, then this sport/hobby/game would suffer in a great way.

[+sbell111]

... Dumbing down? Yes. Unfortunately.

Would it surprise you to learn that 'TFTC' has been discussed in the forums since at least 2002?

 

The only things that have really changed are the expectations of some cache owners.

[+uxorious]

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

 

If giving back to the community requires the hiding of caches, I have a hard time agreeing with this. (As mentioned many times in these forums, giving back can be done in many ways without hiding any caches.)

 

The feeling that a cacher should hide caches to pay back is one of the things that leads to lame caches. Someone who really isn't into the hiding part of this game, would be more likely to just toss a film can into the bushes than would someone who is hiding because they want to.

 

Please don't feel you must hide a cache. Wait until you want to hide a cache. It would lead to better caches in the long run. (there would still be lame caches, but maybe a lot fewer.)

[+Snoogans]

If I wanted a thousand emails a day, I could easily fill the desert around me with 100s of easy park and grabs, and become a "smilie" hero to power cachers. I don't want to be idolized by power cachers, I would rather my reputation be "that guy that hides great caches in great locations."

 

No power cacher am I, (702 finds in 7 years) but your implied dissent begs a question.....

 

What is so distasteful about being a power cacher? I see this time and again and I don't get it.

 

CCCooperAgency now caches incognito because of attitudes like yours and worse. Lynn is a good friend of mine and she never deserved the outright loathing that was heaped on her when she was the top cacher in finds here.

 

Help me understand............

[+bittsen]

If I wanted a thousand emails a day, I could easily fill the desert around me with 100s of easy park and grabs, and become a "smilie" hero to power cachers. I don't want to be idolized by power cachers, I would rather my reputation be "that guy that hides great caches in great locations."

 

No power cacher am I, (702 finds in 7 years) but your implied dissent begs a question.....

 

What is so distasteful about being a power cacher? I see this time and again and I don't get it.

 

CCCooperAgency now caches incognito because of attitudes like yours and worse. Lynn is a good friend of mine and she never deserved the outright loathing that was heaped on her when she was the top cacher in finds here.

 

Help me understand............

 

Strange world.

You are belittled for being a power cacher and I was belittled because I only had 85 finds.

 

Bizarre, isn't it?

[+cron]

... Dumbing down? Yes. Unfortunately.

Would it surprise you to learn that 'TFTC' has been discussed in the forums since at least 2002?

 

The only things that have really changed are the expectations of some cache owners.

 

Whoa! That is the problem with forums. People only read what they want, really quickly (isn't it just like geocaching? ) and misquote you. Or maybe I wasn't clear and you didn't understand me correctly (again, a common problem on forums).

 

I proposed the OP to not place caches and/or removed his actual caches if he can't live with the fact that some geocachers will find his caches just for the numbers and/or without consideration. That is "dumbing down" (in my opinion). Some will think it's removing a needle in their foot. It's ok with me.

[+Snoogans]

If I wanted a thousand emails a day, I could easily fill the desert around me with 100s of easy park and grabs, and become a "smilie" hero to power cachers. I don't want to be idolized by power cachers, I would rather my reputation be "that guy that hides great caches in great locations."

 

No power cacher am I, (702 finds in 7 years) but your implied dissent begs a question.....

 

What is so distasteful about being a power cacher? I see this time and again and I don't get it.

 

CCCooperAgency now caches incognito because of attitudes like yours and worse. Lynn is a good friend of mine and she never deserved the outright loathing that was heaped on her when she was the top cacher in finds here.

 

Help me understand............

 

Strange world.

You are belittled for being a power cacher and I was belittled because I only had 85 finds.

 

Bizarre, isn't it?

 

Nope. Not bizarre, just human nature.

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

 

If giving back to the community requires the hiding of caches, I have a hard time agreeing with this. (As mentioned many times in these forums, giving back can be done in many ways without hiding any caches.)

 

The feeling that a cacher should hide caches to pay back is one of the things that leads to lame caches. Someone who really isn't into the hiding part of this game, would be more likely to just toss a film can into the bushes than would someone who is hiding because they want to.

 

Please don't feel you must hide a cache. Wait until you want to hide a cache. It would lead to better caches in the long run. (there would still be lame caches, but maybe a lot fewer.)

 

I obviously did not write well enough for you to understand what I was saying. I apologize. It is difficult to find the balance between writing too much and writing too little Here is what I said regarding that:

 

Given that, the issue is really how can we help? What can we do? Or more precisely what can we do that will fit with our personalities, knowledge, and experience and won't cause us to run screaming for the door? If we can find something that we enjoy doing, all the better.

 

There are many other things we can do to help out and some of them we will do. Some we won't. We will not, for example, take any sort of responsible position in our local group. That would drive us screaming from the room in no time flat. We know this because we've experienced the universality of small group politics many times and each time we regret becoming involved.

 

I could go over our list of options for you if you'd like, but I think it is a diversion from the topic. Also, I am not certain why I would need to list and justify why each thing we could do is either appropriate for us or not appropriate for us. I think all you really need to know is that we have gone over the list and marked the things that we know we won't hate and might actually like.

 

Second, I'm not sure how hiding a "lame cache" is a service to the community or helps build the world we would like to see or why you think that is what we plan to do. I think you are reading some of your own biases into what I wrote and it isn't justified.

 

Carolyn

[+ReadyOrNot]

If I wanted a thousand emails a day, I could easily fill the desert around me with 100s of easy park and grabs, and become a "smilie" hero to power cachers. I don't want to be idolized by power cachers, I would rather my reputation be "that guy that hides great caches in great locations."

 

No power cacher am I, (702 finds in 7 years) but your implied dissent begs a question.....

 

What is so distasteful about being a power cacher? I see this time and again and I don't get it.

 

CCCooperAgency now caches incognito because of attitudes like yours and worse. Lynn is a good friend of mine and she never deserved the outright loathing that was heaped on her when she was the top cacher in finds here.

 

Help me understand............

 

Strange world.

You are belittled for being a power cacher and I was belittled because I only had 85 finds.

 

Bizarre, isn't it?

 

How dare someone with thousands of finds assume they have more experience than someone with 85. I'm going to march up to HR right now and demand I get paid at the senior engineer rate (7-10 yrs exp) even though I only have 2 years... And while I'm at it, I'm going to go tell the senior engineer that he is belittling me because he *DARED* offer me guidance because of his additional 7 years of experience...

 

The only thing bizarre here is your issue with taking critical feedback from someone with more experience.

[Mushtang]

The ones that don't care about what the logs say do sometimes fit into a different category and it still doesn't present them in a good light, IMHO.

The ego of the OP never ceases to amaze me. To say that someone must enjoy finding the cache in the way that the cache owner intended, or else he's playing the game WRONG, is pretty arrogant. And then to go further and say that a cache owner that places a cache and doesn't care that a finder isn't as interested in the cache itself as he is with some increase in a stat increase, is simply amazing.

 

When you presume to know what is in a cachers mind or heart based on their online log you'll almost always get it wrong. You see, "TFTC" and assume that the finder was only mildly entertained by a cache, or maybe not entertained at all, and they only seek another smiley. Maybe this person enjoyed the hell out of the cache, but their game is all about going out and enjoying the caches and not at all with logging online. Maybe the only reason they log anything online is to be able to more easily exclude caches they've found. It's possible they're not familiar with the other half dozen or so ways to do this, and they're happy to let the web site database keep up with their finds.

 

You see a long winded log and assume that the finder had a great time finding your cache. What if they really didn't, but they're trying to get an award for best log (we have those awards in the GGA) or maybe they're trying to move up on INATN's list of longest average logs (when that function is working).

 

People have fun caching in MANY different ways. I really don't see why you get your thong in a bunch over and over because someone else isn't playing the same way you play, and enjoying the same things you enjoy.

[+flask]

 

 

I'm not the type of person who is going to demand that someone wear that god-awful tie every day until to turns to dust, but I am the type that if I give a nice new PDA I'd be a little hurt if the recipient uses it for nothing more than to steady a wobbly table.

 

this is beautiful, and thank you for it.

 

i hide caches for my own amusement. i write logs for my own amusement.

 

my amusement in hiding caches come from my imagining that visitors to the cache will enjoy the location, or the trip, or the solving of the puzzle. my enjoyment comes from having visitors interact with the cache and react in a log.

 

cut-and-paste logs bother me. it is as if the visitor can't be bothered to write a few words about the cache, or thinks i won't notice that he's written the same log for a hundred caches in my area. one finder went so far as to write a cut-and-paste thanking "all the people who put out caches for us to find on our visit to the lovely vermont area", even though he posted that same log on caches in UTICA, NY!

 

he couldn't be bothered even to change the state name in his cheesy log?

 

my amusement in writing logs comes partly from my imagining that someone will read the log and appreciate it for some reason. it doesn't matter to me who it is that enjoys the log, but i get a lot of emails from people who do.

 

even if i didn't get those emails, i'd still want to write decent logs, because they're part of the balance of the game. nobody hides or finds in a vacuum.

 

while it is perhaps inevitable that as more people join the game there will be more cheap hides and more cheesy logs, it will be important to hand on to the heat of the sport; decent hides accompanied by decent logs.

[Mushtang]

If I wanted a thousand emails a day, I could easily fill the desert around me with 100s of easy park and grabs, and become a "smilie" hero to power cachers. I don't want to be idolized by power cachers, I would rather my reputation be "that guy that hides great caches in great locations."

No power cacher am I, (702 finds in 7 years) but your implied dissent begs a question.....

 

What is so distasteful about being a power cacher? I see this time and again and I don't get it.

 

CCCooperAgency now caches incognito because of attitudes like yours and worse. Lynn is a good friend of mine and she never deserved the outright loathing that was heaped on her when she was the top cacher in finds here.

 

Help me understand............

Strange world.

You are belittled for being a power cacher and I was belittled because I only had 85 finds.

 

Bizarre, isn't it?

How dare someone with thousands of finds assume they have more experience than someone with 85. I'm going to march up to HR right now and demand I get paid at the senior engineer rate (7-10 yrs exp) even though I only have 2 years... And while I'm at it, I'm going to go tell the senior engineer that he is belittling me because he *DARED* offer me guidance because of his additional 7 years of experience...

 

The only thing bizarre here is your issue with taking critical feedback from someone with more experience.

And I think it's against the forum guidelines to suggest that someone's opinion who hasn't found a lot of caches isn't worth as much as the opinion of someone that's found more.

 

If it's not, it used to be.

[+KBI]

I am a very inexperienced person here, however, we recently hit 100 finds. At this point it seems to me that we have the following choices:

 

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

 

The second seems to me to be the ethical choice.

 

Given that, the issue is really how can we help? What can we do? Or more precisely what can we do that will fit with our personalities, knowledge, and experience and won't cause us to run screaming for the door? If we can find something that we enjoy doing, all the better.

I own several caches, and have been caching for most of this decade. I can’t speak for anyone else of course, but as for my humble opinion: I don’t think "freeloading," as you put it, is necessarily a problem. You are welcome to find and log all my caches without giving anything in return. That’s how this game works.

 

As long as you replace caches the way you find them, report any problems you observe, trade evenly, don’t fumble the tracking of trackables, and speak kindly of our hobby to those who are unfamiliar ... then you will have done more than enough to give back to the community, and should receive no complaints.

 

As for hiding your own caches: As you have already read, that is not an official requirement, and neither is it expected unofficially. Most of us would rather you didn’t hide a cache merely out of a sense of obligation. We would much prefer you to hide a cache ONLY if – and when – you decide it is something you would like to do for your own enjoyment.

[+WebChimp]

Sure I take pride on my gift giving as I always want to present something the recipient will like, use, and enjoy. It's the same with placing a cache. I want folks to enjoy it.

 

... You have feedback on whether you chose wisely or poorly. You feel good when the gift is a hit and poorly if it bombs. I know I do.

 

 

A lot of good thoughts here.

 

The fact that the cache will please some and not others is, I think, intrinsic to the act of designing the cache. It is unavoidable. If it's a puzzle cache, some will never look at it due to the question mark icon. If it's a simple hide, other will hold it in disdain because it wasn't challenging. I think this is why there are so categories of cache, so that all aspects of the cacher audience can be served.

 

It kind of reminds me of when I was a kid, and I worked in a catfish restaurant. We served good hamburgers, but some people only wanted the fried catfish. Some didn't like the idea of eating catfish, and were only interested in our frog legs. Some didn't even want to see the frog legs, but were crazy about our french fries (which were really, really good). Some people couldn't be made happy no matter what we served or how it was prepared. Some folks liked everything that came out of the kitchen.

 

Diners are like that. Some want to pick specific items from the menu, some are happy with whatever they find on the table.

 

The great thing is, just like that restaurant, caching has something here for everyone. We've got puzzles, long hikes, short hikes, lampskirt hides, multi-stage caches, and so on.

 

The only constant in the list above is that all off those cache styles are better when they are served up after careful preparation. As with the food industry, it's the difference between fast food and haute cuisine. It's all in the ingredients and preparation.

[+sbell111]

If I wanted a thousand emails a day, I could easily fill the desert around me with 100s of easy park and grabs, and become a "smilie" hero to power cachers. I don't want to be idolized by power cachers, I would rather my reputation be "that guy that hides great caches in great locations."

No power cacher am I, (702 finds in 7 years) but your implied dissent begs a question.....

 

What is so distasteful about being a power cacher? I see this time and again and I don't get it.

 

CCCooperAgency now caches incognito because of attitudes like yours and worse. Lynn is a good friend of mine and she never deserved the outright loathing that was heaped on her when she was the top cacher in finds here.

 

Help me understand............

Strange world.

You are belittled for being a power cacher and I was belittled because I only had 85 finds.

 

Bizarre, isn't it?

How dare someone with thousands of finds assume they have more experience than someone with 85. I'm going to march up to HR right now and demand I get paid at the senior engineer rate (7-10 yrs exp) even though I only have 2 years... And while I'm at it, I'm going to go tell the senior engineer that he is belittling me because he *DARED* offer me guidance because of his additional 7 years of experience...

 

The only thing bizarre here is your issue with taking critical feedback from someone with more experience.

In his defense, the referenced criticism wasn't appropriate and your analogy isn't on point.

[+bflentje]

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

 

I am not sure what you meant this to mean. But on the surface, it just sounds so, so, so contrived and manipulative an even bordering on arrogance.

 

If you hide a cache and you feel others have some obligation to fullfil, whether in logging, hiding caches, etc etc, well, then, you're just in the wrong game.

[+bittsen]

And I think it's against the forum guidelines to suggest that someone's opinion who hasn't found a lot of caches isn't worth as much as the opinion of someone that's found more.

 

If it's not, it used to be.

 

You might be referring to this

1. Forum courtesy: Please treat Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, fellow community members, and guests on these boards with courtesy and respect. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they should be treated fairly.

 

It doesn't mention the number of "finds" but I'm sure that GC.com would agree that the number of finds, or hides, shouldn't matter either.

Edited June 18, 2009 by bittsen

[+bittsen]

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

 

All you have to do to give back is to practice CITO.

[+flask]

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

 

I am not sure what you meant this to mean. But on the surface, it just sounds so, so, so contrived and manipulative an even bordering on arrogance.

 

 

it sounded lovely and gracious to me.

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

 

I am not sure what you meant this to mean. But on the surface, it just sounds so, so, so contrived and manipulative an even bordering on arrogance.

 

If you hide a cache and you feel others have some obligation to fullfil, whether in logging, hiding caches, etc etc, well, then, you're just in the wrong game.

 

I'm so sorry that my motives don't meet with other people's approval. I wasn't aware that there could only be one motive for anything or that mine were so heinous that they need to be attacked over and over.

 

Clearly I'm in the wrong place or playing the wrong game. I suggest you read what I wrote again and notice that it applies to me and my beloved and only to us. I never said anything about anyone else.

 

I'm done here. My friend was right to tell me to stay away from the forums, that they suck the fun out of geocaching.

 

Carolyn

[+bittsen]

How dare someone with thousands of finds assume they have more experience than someone with 85. I'm going to march up to HR right now and demand I get paid at the senior engineer rate (7-10 yrs exp) even though I only have 2 years... And while I'm at it, I'm going to go tell the senior engineer that he is belittling me because he *DARED* offer me guidance because of his additional 7 years of experience...

 

The only thing bizarre here is your issue with taking critical feedback from someone with more experience.

 

Tell you what we will do for you. We are going to triple your GCing pension and offer you an early retirement. You can start today.

[Clan Riffster]

I don't want to be idolized by power cachers, I would rather my reputation be "that guy that hides great caches in great locations."

I hear ya, Brother! If I should ever earn a reputation as a power cache hider, I hope someone will shoot me in the foot to wake me from my stupor. Locally, I am known as "that guy who hides caches nipple deep in alligator infested swamps", which is just how I like it.

 

I have a very biased view of what cache types I enjoy, and I hide the type of caches I like to find.

The "Why" is, perhaps, twofold, and both could easily be considered as self serving:

 

1 ) I get a tremendous amount of satisfaction from reading the logs that come from folks finding my caches. These caches typically take a vast amount of effort to reach, and that is often expressed in the form of longer than usual logs, even from those folks who typically only peck in a few acronyms.

 

2 ) Many folks who find my caches are inspired to reciprocate, giving me even more caches of the type I enjoy the most.

[+bflentje]

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

 

I am not sure what you meant this to mean. But on the surface, it just sounds so, so, so contrived and manipulative an even bordering on arrogance.

 

 

it sounded lovely and gracious to me.

 

I should clarify that my position in that we SHOULD give back IF WE CAN and IF VOLUNTARY. But if you feel there is some obligation, then that's where I have the problem.

 

For the record, I've found ~~2900 caches, hidden ~~125 caches, spend an inordinate amount of time logging (when it is deserved), have umpteen pictures of successful CITO, and provide other free and useful (debatable) services to my fellow cachers. If it were some law or mandate that I had to do this, I'd be long gone.

Edited June 18, 2009 by bflentje

[Clan Riffster]

it sounded lovely and gracious to me.

Agreed. I think Carolyn really hit the nail on the head, contrary to the opinions of the resident Contrarian.

[+bittsen]

 

For the record, I've found ~~2900 caches, hidden ~~125 caches, spend an inordinate amount of time logging (when it is deserved), have umpteen pictures of successful CITO, and provide other free and useful (debatable) services to my fellow cachers.

 

Yes, you are clearly better than all of us.

 

Don't take my comment personally, your comment just sounded so, so, so contrived and manipulative an even bordering on arrogance.

[+bflentje]

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

 

I am not sure what you meant this to mean. But on the surface, it just sounds so, so, so contrived and manipulative an even bordering on arrogance.

 

If you hide a cache and you feel others have some obligation to fullfil, whether in logging, hiding caches, etc etc, well, then, you're just in the wrong game.

 

I'm so sorry that my motives don't meet with other people's approval. I wasn't aware that there could only be one motive for anything or that mine were so heinous that they need to be attacked over and over.

 

Clearly I'm in the wrong place or playing the wrong game. I suggest you read what I wrote again and notice that it applies to me and my beloved and only to us. I never said anything about anyone else.

 

I'm done here. My friend was right to tell me to stay away from the forums, that they suck the fun out of geocaching.

 

Carolyn

 

That's too bad that you took my fully qualified (I could be wrong) statement as reason to leave. Maybe I was confused when you said "We can continue to freeload on other people's work ..." I take that personally, even if "we" really meant "you". I was trying to diplomatic for crying out loud.

[+Renegade Knight]

...You are belittled for being a power cacher and I was belittled because I only had 85 finds....

 

Bizarre, isn't it?

 

The herd doesn't like when people stand apart.

People who care enough to do soemthing other than popcorn caches now as chum stand out. People who log above the level of chum now stand out. We didn't start there, but now maybe this is where we are.

 

Flask and CR have said they are every bit as selfish as I am when it comes to placing caches. Yet I know that while I may not enjoy all of their caches odds are I'd enjoy the majority of them. I say that sign unseen because I know what they mean and for which some would like to draw an quarter them.

 

Apparently most cachers now fish at the kiddie pond. That's fine. There is room enough for the rest of us to walk down the creek and try a real challenge, and enjoy something other than popcorn & chum.

 

The tide of opinion was made pretty clear in the other threads. The Why's have changed. Not so much for some, but some now have never known anything but popcorn caches.

[+bflentje]

 

For the record, I've found ~~2900 caches, hidden ~~125 caches, spend an inordinate amount of time logging (when it is deserved), have umpteen pictures of successful CITO, and provide other free and useful (debatable) services to my fellow cachers.

 

Yes, you are clearly better than all of us.

 

Don't take my comment personally, your comment just sounded so, so, so contrived and manipulative an even bordering on arrogance.

 

Absolutely not. Them's is your words. I know my place in life. I am just a peon that loves to cache. Obviously, you seem to consistently have a problem with YOUR place in life after reading all of your posts lately. My statement was merely a qualification that I give back to the community, WITHOUT it being an obligation.

[+Renegade Knight]

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

...

I should clarify that my position in that we SHOULD give back...

 

Stop there, Be Still, and notice the agreement.

[+bittsen]

 

The herd doesn't like when people stand apart.

People who care enough to do soemthing other than popcorn caches now as chum stand out. People who log above the level of chum now stand out. We didn't start there, but now maybe this is where we are.

 

Flask and CR have said they are every bit as selfish as I am when it comes to placing caches. Yet I know that while I may not enjoy all of their caches odds are I'd enjoy the majority of them. I say that sign unseen because I know what they mean and for which some would like to draw an quarter them.

 

Apparently most cachers now fish at the kiddie pond. That's fine. There is room enough for the rest of us to walk down the creek and try a real challenge, and enjoy something other than popcorn & chum.

 

The tide of opinion was made pretty clear in the other threads. The Why's have changed. Not so much for some, but some now have never known anything but popcorn caches.

 

As I have said somewhere else here. I have done both LPCs and the climbing down the landslide after a mile uphill hike during a heavy snowmelt. Being completely honest I was a hairsbreath from breaking my leg and did bleed from the experience and still have the scabs. I also logged my DNF at the end of that one (as well as two others after me). I have bug bites and torn clothing from geocaching and bruised my backside while looking for a great place to hide a cache on the edge of an extinct volcano. I will add that over 50% of my finds were done at night between the hours of 11PM and 4AM. I have finds stretching 3500 miles, granted most of that distance being water and in 3 states. I have stood at the edge of a 500 foot cliff wondering if the cache was hidden 15 feet in front of me and having my friends telling me to get back in the car so I wouldn't die.

 

I just recorded my first two FTF which were also done at night. Granted one was a park and grab LPC but the other required a little walking on a narrow winding road with no shoulder and a run in with the police for being where I was when I was.

 

But I was labeled as a popcorn cacher?

 

You see, while my arrogance shines through, it is because I laugh at the one who judged me as a "Park and grab" cacher. I may not be as hardcore as some but I make my own challenges out of the caches I go after.

 

I also practice CITO which may or may not be the case with the ones who are judging my caching experience.

Edited June 18, 2009 by bittsen

[+bflentje]

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

...

I should clarify that my position in that we SHOULD give back...

 

Stop there, Be Still, and notice the agreement.

 

Hey, aren't you supposed to go out and find 22,393 more caches before you can post again??

 

Yep, you should give back, if you can. But you have NO (ethical) obligation to give back.

[+bittsen]

 

For the record, I've found ~~2900 caches, hidden ~~125 caches, spend an inordinate amount of time logging (when it is deserved), have umpteen pictures of successful CITO, and provide other free and useful (debatable) services to my fellow cachers.

 

Yes, you are clearly better than all of us.

 

Don't take my comment personally, your comment just sounded so, so, so contrived and manipulative an even bordering on arrogance.

 

Absolutely not. Them's is your words. I know my place in life. I am just a peon that loves to cache. Obviously, you seem to consistently have a problem with YOUR place in life after reading all of your posts lately. My statement was merely a qualification that I give back to the community, WITHOUT it being an obligation.

 

I think if you read your words with someone elses eyes, you could see my point.

You can think I have a problem with my place in life all you want but I can assure you I am content. Well, would be moreso with a little more frequent feminine companionship but thats a different story. And, winning the lottery wouldn't make me cry either.

 

I will add that I am just someone who "likes" to cache. It is not my all, and end all. It is an activity, one of many that I enjoy. I can see that someone whose only hobby is CGing would feel a little more entitlement towards someone like me who isn't nearly as serious about GCing.

Yes, that was sarcasm, unless it is missed.

 

Peace. It's all good, doll~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[+mrbort]

1) We can continue to freeload on other people's work that they have done to make caching in the Midsouth delightful;

Or

2) We can find some way to give back to the community to help it improve and get better.

 

I am not sure what you meant this to mean. But on the surface, it just sounds so, so, so contrived and manipulative an even bordering on arrogance.

 

If you hide a cache and you feel others have some obligation to fullfil, whether in logging, hiding caches, etc etc, well, then, you're just in the wrong game.

 

I'm so sorry that my motives don't meet with other people's approval. I wasn't aware that there could only be one motive for anything or that mine were so heinous that they need to be attacked over and over.

 

Clearly I'm in the wrong place or playing the wrong game. I suggest you read what I wrote again and notice that it applies to me and my beloved and only to us. I never said anything about anyone else.

 

I'm done here. My friend was right to tell me to stay away from the forums, that they suck the fun out of geocaching.

 

Carolyn

 

That's too bad that you took my fully qualified (I could be wrong) statement as reason to leave. Maybe I was confused when you said "We can continue to freeload on other people's work ..." I take that personally, even if "we" really meant "you". I was trying to diplomatic for crying out loud.

 

I don't think that "manipulative bordering on arrogance" was the most diplomatic way to phrase it. Carolyn even went back and explained her statement well before you took issue with it. In her clarification she apologized for the confusion and was clear that it was about how she and her significant other play the game and want to give back. I'm not sure if you didn't read the subsequent responses in the topic or didn't catch it but to take issue with her in that way was was uncalled for IMO.

 

As for hiding caches, I hide them because I enjoy contributing to the community, because I enjoy the idea of people to locations I like and provide puzzles that will amuse them. The sense of obligation that I feel in placing new caches has nothing to do with any external pressure to place caches. It's entirely personal much in the same way I feel that service in other ways is a part of what I feel is my personal avocation. I feel like I have enjoyed the caches that others have placed and would like to enhance the experience of others. I don't do it out of a sense of compulsory obligation; I don't think that anyone is suggesting that they place caches for that reason.

 

I enjoy when people find my caches and also don't need anything more than the knowledge that the cache is out there to make me feel good about it. A great log is fantastic. Everyone enjoys those. However, I don't care if people log at all. While an individual's motivation to find the cache may be interesting and sometimes compelling, I don't worry if others have reasons to find the cache that I don't find interesting. I figure I leave my PDA out there and if someone uses it as a PDA, great. If someone else uses it as a prop for a table, okay... Like briansnat said, as long as they put the cache back and have no impact then I'm fine with it. The nice thing about geocaching is that cachers (who are caching and not stealing) place the cache back and the next person can experience it as well. It's like you are giving a self replicating PDA to anyone who wants it, even for a table prop.

 

That's just my take but I understand when people feel that because their cache is a special, personal representation when there is no recognition of that fact in the cache logs it's a galling thing.

[+briansnat]

I'm done here. My friend was right to tell me to stay away from the forums, that they suck the fun out of geocaching.

 

The forums are a great place to share information, as you can see from your thread asking about how to find good places for caches. There are also some topics that you know right from the get go will generate heated debate. Stay away from those and you'll avoid most of the ugliness. You've been a great addition here in your short time, we'd hate to see you go.

 

Your best bet is to avoid any thread that mentions "micro", "logging", "lamp post", "cemetery", "numbers" in the title or starts with "Why do people...."

[knowschad]

Your best bet is to avoid any thread that mentions "micro", "logging", "lamp post", "cemetery", "numbers" in the title or starts with "Why do people...."

 

My next thread, "Why do people log lamp post micros in the cemetery?" subtitle: "Just to get their numbers up?"

 

(Actually, I think "Should people..." is even better, but I'm tryin' to stick to the materials provided)