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I spend a lot of time on my logs. I've been told that good logs with good photos (at least some of which should be of happy people finding the cache) are desirable. I try to make most of my cache logs tiny works of art. If the cache is particularly good, I try that much harder to do a good job with my log and photos. It often takes all evening to log the 2-4 caches we've found in a day. Sometimes it takes two days to get the editing done just right for a special cache. Sometimes I write several logs for the same event and then pick the best in order to get the right tone. In other words, I put effort into this.

 

This whole series of conversations in which it seems that cache owners are laying in wait to find excuses to delete logs has me deeply upset. So I have questions:

 

In cases where the language and photos used are clearly G rated (PG-13 at most) and there are no spoilers or bogus logs, how often are caches actually deleted? 1 in 10? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? How often?

 

If a log is deleted, what happens to the photos?

 

If one of my logs is deleted (unfairly) and I bring it up with Groundspeak, how much of a period of arbitration does this require? Is this just shy of needing lawyers? How long does it take? Is it likely to end in unhappy feelings all around and not be worth the time and effort?

 

If Groundspeak reinstates my log, are the photos lost for good or will they be restored as well?

 

If Groundspeak does not reinstate my log, is there a way they can give me back my prose and photos to store on my own computer?

 

If I were to set up a blog for my logs and if instead of writing the actual log on the cache page I put a link to the write-up and photos (housed safely on the blog) would cache owners be ok with this? Or would it get the sad cache owner response to people who don't log well?

 

Carolyn

Edited by Steve&GeoCarolyn
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I spend a lot of time on my logs. I've been told that good logs with good photos (at least some of which should be of happy people finding the cache) are desirable. I try to make most of my cache logs tiny works of art. If the cache is particularly good, I try that much harder to do a good job with my log and photos. It often takes all evening to log the 2-4 caches we've found in a day. Sometimes it takes two days to get the editing done just right for a special cache. Sometimes I write several logs for the same event and then pick the best in order to get the right tone. In other words, I put effort into this.

 

This whole series of conversations in which it seems that cache owners are laying in wait to find excuses to delete logs has me deeply upset. So I have questions:

 

In cases where the language and photos used are clearly G rated (PG-13 at most) and there are no spoilers or bogus logs, how often are caches actually deleted? 1 in 10? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? How often?

 

If a log is deleted, what happens to the photos?

 

If one of my logs is deleted (unfairly) and I bring it up with Groundspeak, how much of a period of arbitration does this require? Is this just shy of needing lawyers? How long does it take? Is it likely to end in unhappy feelings all around and not be worth the time and effort?

 

If Groundspeak reinstates my log, are the photos lost for good or will they be restored as well?

 

If Groundspeak does not reinstate my log, is there a way they can give me back my prose and photos to store on my own computer?

 

If I were to set up a blog for my logs and if instead of writing the actual log on the cache page I put a link to the write-up and photos (housed safely on the blog) would cache owners be ok with this? Or would it get the sad cache owner response to people who don't log well?

 

Carolyn

 

Feel free to come and find and log a cache of mine anytime you like. I promise you write a log like that it's there for good!!!! Keep up with that. I enjoy reading log's and think it's really cool when people take the time to post picture's, and write out a little something about there hunt.

 

I would suggest keeping all your photo files on your computer or disc. Just cause they are uploaded to this site doesn't mean later on you may want to use them somewhere else too. Like I've got a blog that I've used many of caching picture's I've posted on caches. Plus it's nice to look back threw them from time to time.

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If I were to set up a blog for my logs and if instead of writing the actual log on the cache page I put a link to the write-up and photos (housed safely on the blog) would cache owners be ok with this? Or would it get the sad cache owner response to people who don't log well?

 

I don't think I would ever delete a log of yours or of any cacher who actualy visited my cache and didn't give out any spoilers.

 

That being said, I would have a problem with this kind of caching method. I have a bit of a problem with what would look like you using my cache page as an opportunity to advertise your private website.

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...

 

If Groundspeak does not reinstate my log, is there a way they can give me back my prose and photos to store on my own computer?

 

If I were to set up a blog for my logs and if instead of writing the actual log on the cache page I put a link to the write-up and photos (housed safely on the blog) would cache owners be ok with this? Or would it get the sad cache owner response to people who don't log well?

 

Carolyn

First, you need to remember that the adventure you had finding a cache, the fun you had at an event, etc, is still there if you have a log or not. If you want to have the most control over your logs and pictures, you need to start your own personal blog or something. I don't think legit logs get deleted all that much, but cleary you would be upset if it happen just once.

 

As for your questions:

It used to be that when a log was deleted you would get an email message from the site telling you a log had been deleted and giving you a link back to the log. you would still be able to follow the link and see the log, but it would not show on the cache page etc. However its been a while since I've had any sort of log deleted, so i can't verify it still works this way. No idea if the pictures are still on the log after deleted.

 

I can't really control what your do own blog, so why are you asking my approval??

Personally I would think a url would a really poor log by itself, epecially since it would be automatically changed to just say "(LINK)" :D

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.....how often are caches actually deleted? 1 in 10? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? How often?

 

Really, the chances of a legit log being deleted are only slightly higher than your odds of picking up a winning lottery ticket from the cache. Please, don't bother to plan for either event. :(

 

I doubt if the number of log deletions on legit logs is even one in 10,000,000 - perhaps a tad higher for legit logs with some criticism of the cache. Those kinds of log deletions come here as threads - a log which is rather harsh re the quality of cache that gets deleted by the CO.

 

If a log is deleted, what happens to the photos?

 

They're sitting right at the same URL as they were before the log deletion. If you know it, you can still see them there too, I believe. (I could be wrong about your ability to follow that link... )

 

If one of my logs is deleted (unfairly) and I bring it up with Groundspeak, how much of a period of arbitration does this require? Is this just shy of needing lawyers? How long does it take? Is it likely to end in unhappy feelings all around and not be worth the time and effort?

 

A reasonable amount of time - days or weeks, not months or years. No lawyers. Hard to say about the unhappy feelings.

Yours? the cache owner's? The cache owner not likely to be jumping with joy to have a log reinstated, but if reinstating is the right action, the cache owner probably ought just accept that.

 

If Groundspeak reinstates my log, are the photos lost for good or will they be restored as well?

 

The photos would come back with the log

 

If Groundspeak does not reinstate my log, is there a way they can give me back my prose and photos to store on my own computer?

 

Yes. I can't say whether they would, but it's still on the server. (Surely you have the original photos on your machine at home? )

 

If I were to set up a blog for my logs and if instead of writing the actual log on the cache page I put a link to the write-up and photos (housed safely on the blog) would cache owners be ok with this? Or would it get the sad cache owner response to people who don't log well?

 

It would make me mildly unhappy as a cache owner. Generally you have to create accounts with places to see that stuff, it's not on my cache page, and finally, as a matter of experience, I've got logs on my caches now with visit link, usually for photos, that no longer work. I wouldn't delete your log over it :(

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This whole series of conversations in which it seems that cache owners are laying in wait to find excuses to delete logs has me deeply upset. So I have questions:

 

 

I don't think that's true, Carolyn. Take heart. I believe that only the original poster thought that deleting logs was OK (and even then said he'd send an email offering them to relog if they did a better job). I think this has unforunately degraded into a conversation about the validity of cache owners to desire meaningful logs.

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I really don't think deleting logs is a real problem. I've been caching since 2004, logged over 1300 caches in 17 or so states and Canada and have only had one log deleted. It was for a virtual cache and the cache owner felt that the photo did not meet the logging requirements. I was a bit annoyed because there was a request that specifically asked not to reveal details of the location and I had carefully selected a photo that didn't. The photo also showed the GPS and the coordinates. I edited the photo to make the details clearer, replaced my nice log with a "found it", which incidentally is my only 2 word log ever posted on a cache and resubmitted it. However if I was as passionate about my logs and photos, as you obviously are, I would certainly keep a copy of them on my hard drive, on a blog, a photo sharing site or even a jump drive. I keep multiple copies of things I care about. It's the old belt and suspenders theory. Servers crash, companies go bankrupt, technology changes, people have tantrums, etc. so better safe than sorry.

Team Taran

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Feel free to come and find and log a cache of mine anytime you like. I promise you write a log like that it's there for good!!!! Keep up with that. I enjoy reading log's and think it's really cool when people take the time to post picture's, and write out a little something about there hunt.

 

Thank you! I will keep that in mind. Iowa, huh? It is a place I'd never thought to go. But geocaching is like that for us. It keeps leading us to places we would never have thought of before. :(

 

It used to be that when a log was deleted you would get an email message from the site telling you a log had been deleted and giving you a link back to the log. you would still be able to follow the link and see the log, but it would not show on the cache page etc. However its been a while since I've had any sort of log deleted, so i can't verify it still works this way. No idea if the pictures are still on the log after deleted.

 

That makes sense combined with what Isonzo Karst described. Thank you!

 

I don't think that's true, Carolyn. Take heart. I believe that only the original poster thought that deleting logs was OK (and even then said he'd send an email offering them to relog if they did a better job). I think this has unforunately degraded into a conversation about the validity of cache owners to desire meaningful logs.

 

Thank you. I will settle down now. It is easier now that I understand a bit more about how the logs work under the covers and how, when, and how often deletions actually occur. To live fully one has to expect some risk, but it is much more comforting to me to know how much risk and the nature of the risk.

 

It seems that the log deletion posts are an artifact of the forums and not grounded in some sort of high frequency in the real world. My beloved had suggested to me that this was the case last night and suggested that I either ask for more information or stop reading the forums. So I asked. :(

 

Carolyn

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.....how often are caches actually deleted? 1 in 10? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? How often?

 

Really, the chances of a legit log being deleted are only slightly higher than your odds of picking up a winning lottery ticket from the cache. Please, don't bother to plan for either event. :(

 

I doubt if the number of log deletions on legit logs is even one in 10,000,000 - perhaps a tad higher for legit logs with some criticism of the cache. Those kinds of log deletions come here as threads - a log which is rather harsh re the quality of cache that gets deleted by the CO.

 

OK. Then I will stop fretting about it. (I don't criticize caches. I generally try to avoid doing anything that would hurt someone's feelings.)

 

If a log is deleted, what happens to the photos?

 

They're sitting right at the same URL as they were before the log deletion. If you know it, you can still see them there too, I believe. (I could be wrong about your ability to follow that link... )

 

{snip}

 

Yes. I can't say whether they would, but it's still on the server. (Surely you have the original photos on your machine at home? )

 

So the photos don't disappear. Nothing is actually deleted. All that is going on is a flag set in the database is set to not show the log. That is a relief.

 

As to the photos being on my machine, that is not the case after I process and upload them to the log. I just don't have room on my hard drive. The photos from last weekend's caching event are still waiting my final disposal. That folder of photos (pretty much from just two caches) takes up 529 MB.

 

Part of the "problem" is that we prefer to go to caches that we can hike to or that are truly beautiful (often the same thing). Here in the Midsouth, that often means hiking in wetlands. (Many of the cache owners here are incredibly good at finding beautiful wet places for caches.)

 

The wetlands are simply breathtaking and they change from day to day. Being in the swamp is like being inside an enormous animal whose inner musculature moves around one, changing in the blink of an eye. In addition, the quality of light that filters through the cypress trees means that most pictures I take will be beautiful. So it is truly difficult to simply discard the poorer photos, because often there are very few poor photos. But keeping the photos means that I run out of hard drive space in about a month.

 

I have compromised with myself. I process the photos for the logs and upload them. Then I choose a maximum of 3 photos for my screensaver, process those, and put them in my Best of Geocaching folder. Usually I pick something I haven't used for the logs since I can view those pictures on the logs. Then I delete everything else. So I actually don't have most of the photos I've uploaded anywhere but here.

 

The prose is not such a big deal because I compose it in MacJournal and keep the original compositions. But text takes up much less room than photos.

 

If I were to set up a blog for my logs and if instead of writing the actual log on the cache page I put a link to the write-up and photos (housed safely on the blog) would cache owners be ok with this? Or would it get the sad cache owner response to people who don't log well?

 

It would make me mildly unhappy as a cache owner. Generally you have to create accounts with places to see that stuff, it's not on my cache page, and finally, as a matter of experience, I've got logs on my caches now with visit link, usually for photos, that no longer work. I wouldn't delete your log over it :(

 

I suspected as much. I only considered it because of the possibility of losing the photos. If log deletions are truly rare and if the photos still exist, I won't worry so much. (An additional site to store the logs and photos really is a lot of work that I don't want to do unless the photos and logs are truly at risk.)

 

Thank you so much for your comforting and informative reply!

 

Carolyn

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I really don't think deleting logs is a real problem. I've been caching since 2004, logged over 1300 caches in 17 or so states and Canada and have only had one log deleted. It was for a virtual cache and the cache owner felt that the photo did not meet the logging requirements. I was a bit annoyed because there was a request that specifically asked not to reveal details of the location and I had carefully selected a photo that didn't. The photo also showed the GPS and the coordinates. I edited the photo to make the details clearer, replaced my nice log with a "found it", which incidentally is my only 2 word log ever posted on a cache and resubmitted it. However if I was as passionate about my logs and photos, as you obviously are, I would certainly keep a copy of them on my hard drive, on a blog, a photo sharing site or even a jump drive. I keep multiple copies of things I care about. It's the old belt and suspenders theory. Servers crash, companies go bankrupt, technology changes, people have tantrums, etc. so better safe than sorry.

Team Taran

 

All true and generally I'm willing to lose things to rare events. I kind of see rare events as 100 year floods that give one a chance to rebuild. My concern was that I couldn't tell how rare the events were. I didn't know whether I was living in a flood plain that experienced regular, frequent floods or a sedate valley with few floods.

 

Carolyn

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Thank you! I will keep that in mind. Iowa, huh? It is a place I'd never thought to go. But geocaching is like that for us. It keeps leading us to places we would never have thought of before. :(

 

Carolyn

Speaking of places you never thought you would go to, if you drive to Iowa, you might as well go on to Mingo, Kansas. I live in New York. I once took a temporary job in Arizona partly so that I could go get this cache.

Here's one bizarre reason cache logs get deleted: I once wrote DNF logs on two multis. Nothing critical, just standard "looked in all likely spots but couldn't find it." When the owner fixed the caches, he deleted my DNF logs! I never talked to him about it, but I've heard of people doing that because they didn't want any red boxes to show up when people have their caches in a GSAK filter!

I've also had logs deleted because the owner didn't like what I said, but that was long ago. I don't say anything critical on the cache pages anymore. And yes, I always got an automatic email from Groundspeak when a log was deleted, and sometimes an email from the owner with an explanation.

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Carolyn,

 

As snarky and sarcastic as I tend to be when the forums heat up, it is a serious issue on the surface, but no real threat to someone like yourself. Granted I've only been caching for a little over a year, and of the 3000 logs my family and I have posted, only one has been deleted and that was an earthcache we forgot to get a picture of my wife at, it was a requirement and we did not meet it. Even though it was obvious she took the pictures... Plain and simple the logging requirments were not met. Oh well, we moved on. Next time through we'll get a picture.

 

I have seen logs deleted for not signing the physical log book in the cache, but that is rare. I had a number of cachers (about 10) contact me about a series of missing signatures from 3 different "finders" on a bunch of hides, and it brings up an interesting point: Am I the caching police? It's not really a position I want to be in. I believe it comes down to the integrity of the person making the find.

 

My solution was to email the cachers in question and ask why the consistant lack of signatures and perhaps details of the hides. Two responded with very detailed info (even if I disagree with the reason) and the third went out within a couple days and signed the logs. Whether or not he found them before, I don't care. It comes back to the integrity of the individual.

 

I am sure others have logged finds without signing simply because when my kids beg to go cache, I'll take them to my hides and notice the signatures don't match. If I tracked them all down, I'd spend all day monitoring the logs, then I become known as a nasty cache owner and may end up with my caches thrown in a ditch 100 miles away on a logging road (it happened to a local guy over less). With over 100 active caches, not much fun for me. Heck, I have trouble keeping up with maintenance sometimes. After all, those who are prolific at not signing the logs are well known in a community, even if they are not confronted.

 

So the person may have 5 or 6k finds, to not have the respect of your peers, to me, is worse. After all, you may win on number of finds logged, but I would think the victory should be kind of hollow. Yes, those who ghost log do not feel like it's a hollow victory, they see victory at any cost as a win. Not a mentality I subscribe to.

 

And that's where the breakdown occurs. You can see that when someone runs whining to the forums about this or that. They tell only part of the story and you notice a change in the mood of everyone posting when the whole story comes out.

 

In short, fuggedabout it.

 

Sorry for the book, wish my logs were this long.

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Regarding photos... while I have never tested it out, I have been told that even if you delete your own photos, that they still remain on the server and can still be references by the URL if you have it.
This is true. I've often uploaded a picture to one of my archived caches just to store it, then link to some other place I wanted to show it, and then deleted the photo from my cache. The photo still shows up in the place I've linked it to.

 

Years ago, when Jeremy was still active in these forums, he mentioned the fact that the images are not actually deleted. But then he warned that at some point in the future he'd have to go back and purge the photos that had been deleted in order to gain storage space. The fact that this hasn't happened yet, and because storage space is super cheap compared to other hardware, makes me think it may never happen.

 

But I'd never store any pictures here that I'd deleted, which were very important to me. That would be stupid considering all the free photo storage sites that exist. I only do it for images I want to put in these forums or something like that. If they go away after a few weeks it's no big deal.

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I really don't think deleting logs is a real problem. I've been caching since 2004, logged over 1300 caches in 17 or so states and Canada and have only had one log deleted. It was for a virtual cache and the cache owner felt that the photo did not meet the logging requirements. I was a bit annoyed because there was a request that specifically asked not to reveal details of the location and I had carefully selected a photo that didn't. The photo also showed the GPS and the coordinates. I edited the photo to make the details clearer, replaced my nice log with a "found it", which incidentally is my only 2 word log ever posted on a cache and resubmitted it. However if I was as passionate about my logs and photos, as you obviously are, I would certainly keep a copy of them on my hard drive, on a blog, a photo sharing site or even a jump drive. I keep multiple copies of things I care about. It's the old belt and suspenders theory. Servers crash, companies go bankrupt, technology changes, people have tantrums, etc. so better safe than sorry.

Team Taran

same here-7000+ finds and only one log deleted. A virt that didn't show enough of my face in the pic. I wonder if it was the same CO? :(

 

I have had 2-3 owners of improperly listed ALR caches threaten to delete my logs as I failed to fulfill the ALR. But when I pointed out that their cache was listed as a traditional and not a mystery/puzzle they backed off.

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...In cases where the language and photos used are clearly G rated (PG-13 at most) and there are no spoilers or bogus logs, how often are caches actually deleted? 1 in 10? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? How often?...

 

Off the top of my head 2 in a thousand. One was deleted for no reason I could figure out. I had told a story instead of details on the cache. I emailed the onwer to ask why the deletion. No answer. I logged again talking about the litter in the cache area and how it was used as a dump site. No problem with that log. They let it stand.

 

I've had a few others request I pull a spoiler out of the log which I did.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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700 plus finds and another 150+ DNF logs and I don't recall one being deleted. I don't think its a major issue.

I've left logs that were somewhat critical too. I guess I just haven't run into a thin skinned cache owner yet.

 

As a cache owner I have deleted logs, but they were phony logs. I wouldn't delete a legit log unless it contained inappropriate language or an unwanted spoiler. In those cases I would give the finder a chance to edit his log first.

Edited by briansnat
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I've had a grand total of 2 logs deleted out of 600ish finds. Both were for earthcaches. On one the owner had missed the measurements I had included in an email, and on the other I mistakenly did a "Found It" log instead of the intended "Note" before fullfilling all requirements.

 

I have deleted a grand total of 1 log from caches of mine (including all listing sites and account names). It was by a new player who mistakenly logged a cache twice. I asked her about it, and she asked that I delete it because she didn't know how. I deleted it, but told her how anyway.

 

This doesn't count many instances where I've asked people to either delete or alter logs to remove spoiler information, or to alter or delete logs that did not fulfill all requirements.

 

So to answer the OP question: In my experience, very rarely.

 

Edit: I just remembered one more of my logs that was deleted. The coords were about 70-80-ft off, and in FTF attempts I had spent considerable time searching for a micro in a thick bushy area with many thorns and prickly things. Much DNA evidence was left behind. The cache was eventually found (NOT near the thorns) by someone else who posted updated coords. Mine was the 6th log after the updated coords, so I re-posted them so they wouldn't roll off the screen, and mentioned this in my log. The owner deleted it right before updating coordinates.

 

So three logs deleted: One was my mistake, one was the owner's mistake, one was a thin-skinned owner. Still very rare.

Edited by J-Way
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Hmmm... 2000 finds 30 hides. One find deleted for mentioning that the final was 170' off. I relogged: TFTC. One SBA deleted. A few threats (not carried out) for calling a park boring, and other such observations. (No. I'll never learn.)

What have I deleted? Thee logs from two drive-by cachers who did not sign logs - any logs! Two logs that stated "Did not bother to sign the log book". (Both were quite insulted! "We don't have to sign log books where I'm from.") Oh, well. Then, of course, there is the webcam cache. "Photo of you taken by webcam, and posted here, is required to log this cache." Sounds simple and obvious??? After all, it is a webcam cache. About 30% non-compliance on that one. Many treat it as a virtaual. "I was there. Therefore, I found it." There are many who accept the fact that the did not meet the simple requirement. But, I have had to delete more than a few 'webcam picture taken' logs without webcam picture.

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Speaking of places you never thought you would go to, if you drive to Iowa, you might as well go on to Mingo, Kansas.

 

Funny that you say that. We just returned from a trip to Denver and we stopped at Mingo on the way. Our log.

 

I shot some wonderful pictures of wildflowers there but couldn't find a reliable internet connection at our destination to log everything before I had to clean off my hard disk for the work I needed to do that weekend. Plus, I was under a lot of pressure to get done with the logging already so that I could do what other people wanted me to do. So my photos suffered from my haste. :)

 

I really truly thought that Mingo would be this lovely little town (because it had a highway sign and everything). I laughed when I realized that the most exciting part of Mingo were the railroad tracks and the cache.

 

Here's one bizarre reason cache logs get deleted: I once wrote DNF logs on two multis. Nothing critical, just standard "looked in all likely spots but couldn't find it." When the owner fixed the caches, he deleted my DNF logs! I never talked to him about it, but I've heard of people doing that because they didn't want any red boxes to show up when people have their caches in a GSAK filter!

 

That is an odd reason. I think a lot of people here like DNF logs since they do them themselves. I will watch for that when I'm caching outside of Tennessee and don't have a good feel for the cache owners.

 

Carolyn

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As to the photos being on my machine, that is not the case after I process and upload them to the log. I just don't have room on my hard drive. The photos from last weekend's caching event are still waiting my final disposal. That folder of photos (pretty much from just two caches) takes up 529 MB.

 

Carolyn

 

Hi Carolyn,

 

Once we got a digital camera we started having the problem of no space on our computer for the photos. The way we solved it was getting a 'external hard drive' to store our photos on. This is a relatively affordable way of adding extra storage to your computer. I suggest it as some thing you might be interested in looking into.

 

And by the way, we have found just over 1000 caches and not had one log deleted. I have deleted logs on our caches for young cachers who have accidentally logged the cache two or three times, and asked people to edit 'spoiler' logs (which all but one person has been willing to do). I have only ever completely deleted one found it log - which was when someone tried to log a cache that was missing at the time.

 

Annie

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...In cases where the language and photos used are clearly G rated (PG-13 at most) and there are no spoilers or bogus logs, how often are caches actually deleted? 1 in 10? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? How often?

 

Carolyn

 

We've never had one of our logs deleted and we've never been asked to change a log in any way (as far as I can recall).

 

We've twice asked cachers to change their Found log to a note... because they didn't find the cache.

One backed off from GZ because he felt he couldn't retrieve the cache - he felt muggles were watching him - but logged a Find anyway.

The other one was a cacher who got within 100ft of a 3*terrain cache but decided to go no further as they felt uncomfortable with the rocky approach and location - but logged a Find anyway.

 

The first cacher happily came back another time and did it properly (and called in for tea, too ;) ), the second cacher accepted our request and changed his Found log to a note.

 

MrsB :)

Edited by The Blorenges
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