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Is this a 5/5 rating?


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I have a good location for a cache and think I have a 5 star rating for both difficulty and terrain, but I'm fairly new and want some expert advice so I don't let anyone down. The cache will be on a small island on a lake that is about 3,000 acres so you will need a boat or some thick ice to get to it. On the island there are some random piles of rocks. I'm going to put it in a hide-a-key type of fake rock and set it with the other rocks. What kind of rating does this sound like to you????

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I have a good location for a cache and think I have a 5 star rating for both difficulty and terrain, but I'm fairly new and want some expert advice so I don't let anyone down. The cache will be on a small island on a lake that is about 3,000 acres so you will need a boat or some thick ice to get to it. On the island there are some random piles of rocks. I'm going to put it in a hide-a-key type of fake rock and set it with the other rocks. What kind of rating does this sound like to you????

 

Terrain is good. The difficulty might depending on the size of the rock pile. I doubt it'd be 5 stars but you should certainly get close depending on how it is hidden.

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5 on difficulty by definition should likely involve several trips of several hours each to find the cache once you have overcome the terrain. Sounds much more like a difficulty of 3 or 4 to me.

 

<<<warning - opinion follows>>>

Also a must skip in my book. I don't much care for a micro at the end of a terrain challenge. Especially in an area that could easily support a larger cache. But that is just me.

</opinion>

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According to cachopedia (can't find link in geocaching.com in quick search) :

 

5 - extreme - Finding the container is a serious mental/physical challenge that requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment.

 

So I'd rate it 4.5 or lower.

 

(and off topic, but I would also very likely ignore such a cache if I know in advance it is a needle in haystack kind of hide)

Edited by Chrysalides
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5 on difficulty by definition should likely involve several trips of several hours each to find the cache once you have overcome the terrain. Sounds much more like a difficulty of 3 or 4 to me.

 

<<<warning - opinion follows>>>

Also a must skip in my book. I don't much care for a micro at the end of a terrain challenge. Especially in an area that could easily support a larger cache. But that is just me.

</opinion>

 

But you were so much more civil, for that I thank you.

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I have a good location for a cache and think I have a 5 star rating for both difficulty and terrain, but I'm fairly new and want some expert advice so I don't let anyone down. The cache will be on a small island on a lake that is about 3,000 acres so you will need a boat or some thick ice to get to it. On the island there are some random piles of rocks. I'm going to put it in a hide-a-key type of fake rock and set it with the other rocks. What kind of rating does this sound like to you????

 

I suggest you hide an ammo box and make it at T5 D2. Also, consider that if you hide a fake rock in a rock pile on an island, consider that damage you could do if you hide it on an island like that with people searching for it. You'll revisit the cache and find that every single rock has been moved by the first ten people truing to get FTF. Could get ugly.

 

If you insist on making it a 5/5, hike an ammo box and create a clever puzzle that is rewarding to those who solve it.

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I have a good location for a cache and think I have a 5 star rating for both difficulty and terrain, but I'm fairly new and want some expert advice so I don't let anyone down. The cache will be on a small island on a lake that is about 3,000 acres so you will need a boat or some thick ice to get to it. On the island there are some random piles of rocks. I'm going to put it in a hide-a-key type of fake rock and set it with the other rocks. What kind of rating does this sound like to you????

 

I suggest you hide an ammo box and make it at T5 D2. Also, consider that if you hide a fake rock in a rock pile on an island, consider that damage you could do if you hide it on an island like that with people searching for it. You'll revisit the cache and find that every single rock has been moved by the first ten people truing to get FTF. Could get ugly.

 

If you insist on making it a 5/5, hike an ammo box and create a clever puzzle that is rewarding to those who solve it.

Ditto weathernowcast's comments. Also keep in mind the maintenance issue - ammo cans last a long time and don't need to be looked after nearly as much as a micro hide-a-key. Do you really want to go out to that island to replace a log everytime it rains?

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In general, experienced cachers detest what we call "rock pile hides". We also detest "spruce tree hides" and a few other "kinds of hides" (OK, that last was humor). A difficult cache should be difficult because its clever. Rock pile and spruce tree hides are difficult simply by their very nature. They are frustrating and we learn nothing from them except to maybe avoid them next time. Show an experienced geocacher a new hiding trick, however, and you'll be the talk of the town!

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5 on difficulty by definition should likely involve several trips of several hours each to find the cache once you have overcome the terrain. Sounds much more like a difficulty of 3 or 4 to me.

 

<<<warning - opinion follows>>>

Also a must skip in my book. I don't much care for a micro at the end of a terrain challenge. Especially in an area that could easily support a larger cache. But that is just me.

</opinion>

 

True that.

Especially the opinion part.

 

Your best bet for the 5 difficulty is the puzzle option already mentioned.

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How about hiding 100 ammo cans in the rocks with only one being the real cache.....

 

Naww.... in a month, there'd only be one ammo can on the island and 99 new caches in the general area.

 

But there would be 99 new ammo can caches in the area...even if the hider does try to wedge them under a lamppost.

 

I'm with the others here in that if I made my way to the island, whether by boat, kayak, ice or just plain old swam to it, I would certainly hope for something other than a micro at the end of it. A fake rock micro hidden in a rock field is no better than a LPC, in my opinion...you're just placing a cache there because you can. Get creative. Heck, don't even stop at an ammo can. You could place a five gallon bucket loaded with swag or build your own weatherproofed box. An island cache that is rated 5/5 is going to have a limited number of cachers visiting it...make it worth their trip.

 

Bruce

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5 terrain in the summer, for special equipment...you need a boat.

2 terrain in winter when you can walk out to it.

 

Difficulty rating is, no pun intended, the hard part... there is a fine line between challenging and PITA.

 

As the owner of a few active and past owner of a bunch more island caches (I sold my boat so I adopted most of them out) I can tell you that a well-stocked waterproof container is really appreciated as an island cache.

 

I've never wanted to alienate my cache seekers so I haven't put a micro on an island. :D Just sayin.

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Also keep in mind the maintenance issue - ammo cans last a long time and don't need to be looked after nearly as much as a micro hide-a-key. Do you really want to go out to that island to replace a log everytime it rains?
Speaking of maintenance, do you really want to find the fake rock in the rock pile every time you need to replace the log?

 

FWIW, the caches I'm familiar with that approach 5/5 get the 5-star difficulty from a challenge that requires special equipment/skills. One has a very challenging puzzle to get the coordinates for an underwater cache in a lake. Another was a locked ammo can on an island, and you had to pick the lock once you got there. And so on. A 5-star needle-in-a-haystack hide would need to have so many decoys that the only practical way to find the cache would be to use special equipment of some kind--a metal detector, a UV flashlight, a Geiger counter, a trained dog, etc.

 

And I've found a few fake-rock caches that were fun. Some used a fake rock in an area that had only a few real rocks. Others used a fake rock that was somehow different from the many real rocks, so observant geocachers could find the fake rock without turning over any of the real rocks.

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In general, experienced cachers detest what we call "rock pile hides". We also detest "spruce tree hides" and a few other "kinds of hides" (OK, that last was humor). A difficult cache should be difficult because its clever. Rock pile and spruce tree hides are difficult simply by their very nature. They are frustrating and we learn nothing from them except to maybe avoid them next time.

I'll add the holly bush hide to that list.

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I actually have an ammo can rock pile hide. Painted (as suggested above) to blend in very well. When it is re-hidden correctly (as it generally is) at least some of it it is visible without moving any rocks. When I hid it, I memorized where I needed to stand and where I needed to look to find it. I STILL hate checking up on that sucker. I haven't actually DNFd it yet, but I've sure come close!

 

And for Pete's sake, if you must hide a fake rock, MAKE YOUR OWN!!! Sorry, Groundspeak, but your "official" fake rock really sucks.

Edited by knowschad
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Wow! Lot's of good responses/ideas. Thanks everyone, this is the info I was hoping for from veteran gc'ers. I wasn't sold on the fake rock thing either and there isn't like thousands (or even hundreds) of rocks on the island, just a few here and there. I like the locked ammo box that is well hidden idea. Maybe provide riddles to reveal the combo??? I need to explore the island a little more and look for some different options. And it looks like I'm looking for of a 4.5T / 4D rating, huh? Just want to do it right...

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for your reference here is the clayjar rating system which is endorsed by geocaching.com

 

The system basically consists of 7 questions.

 

Questions 1-6 help you determine the terrain rating. If you answer yes to question 1 (is special equipment required?) then you automatically get a 5 terrain rating

 

Question 7 determines your difficulty rating...

 

How easy is it to find the cache?

1. Cache is in plain sight or location is fairly obvious.

2. Cache could be in one of several locations. Hunter may have to look for a while.

3. Cache may be very well hidden, may be multi-leg, or may use clues to location.

4. Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find

5. Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

***Please consider visibility, accessibility, and relative signal strength due to tree cover or other obstructions when answering this question.

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for your reference here is the clayjar rating system which is endorsed by geocaching.com

 

The system basically consists of 7 questions.

 

Questions 1-6 help you determine the terrain rating. If you answer yes to question 1 (is special equipment required?) then you automatically get a 5 terrain rating

 

Question 7 determines your difficulty rating...

 

How easy is it to find the cache?

1. Cache is in plain sight or location is fairly obvious.

2. Cache could be in one of several locations. Hunter may have to look for a while.

3. Cache may be very well hidden, may be multi-leg, or may use clues to location.

4. Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find

5. Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

***Please consider visibility, accessibility, and relative signal strength due to tree cover or other obstructions when answering this question.

 

Now THAT'S what I've been looking for, TY! I guess a boat IS special equipment....

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Also if your goal is to hide a 5-5 cache I would suggest you not use a regular key holder... find a tiny fake rock key holder.... then toss it into a pile of hundreds of rocks that look exactly like it... if you want to make it really hard try NOT to get good coords..... that will really make it hard

 

However if you are looking to hide a fun cache that cachers will enjoy my advice is not to focus on the rating and hide an ammo box on the island...

 

I really like island caches.... There is one near us that is a blast... Not Gilligan’s Island

 

I think that some people in this forum think a TRUE 5-5 cache needs to be almost impossible. Personally I think a 5-5 rating simply represents a cache that requires an significantly above average amount of time, preparation, special equipment etc.

 

But you will find plenty of folks in this forums that will be quick to disagree with me

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In spite of what everyone is saying, which isn't right or wrong, there still is a time and a place for 5/5 and even needle haystack caches. Not everyone ignores them. Plant ANY kind of cache you like. The ONLY important thing is to RATE IT PROPERLY and GET GOOD COORDINATES.

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I'll add the holly bush hide to that list.

We'd never seen a holly bush hide until we went to a new area a couple years ago and saw them everywhere. The first couple were okay, but then they really started hurting our hands, so we would just hope back into the car when we'd see more hidden that way.

 

And for Pete's sake, if you must hide a fake rock, MAKE YOUR OWN!!! Sorry, Groundspeak, but your "official" fake rock really sucks.

The logo on top is very helpful in identifying it as a cache, though. :grin:

Edited by Skippermark
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Also if your goal is to hide a 5-5 cache I would suggest you not use a regular key holder... find a tiny fake rock key holder.... then toss it into a pile of hundreds of rocks that look exactly like it... if you want to make it really hard try NOT to get good coords..... that will really make it hard

Good advice about the container. I've never seen a dry standard hide-a-key unless it hadn't rained in the area for a month, or the hiding spot was completely out of the weather. Unfortunately, the soft coords advice is horrible. Almost everyone here has mentioned how much the needle-in-a-haystack hide is despised. Soft coord hides are even worse. Good coords are If you add soft coords to a needle-in-a-haystack, and word gets around, the cache will never be found because everyone will add it to their ignore list.

 

I think that some people in this forum think a TRUE 5-5 cache needs to be almost impossible. Personally I think a 5-5 rating simply represents a cache that requires an significantly above average amount of time, preparation, special equipment etc.
"Almost impossible"? No, but "significantly above average" doesn't cut it. Your standard "average" cache would have a rating of 2 to 2.5. "Significantly above average" would put you squarely in 4-star territory:
4. Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find.

 

If you want a fun, memorable, 5-star cache you'll usually need multiple stages, usually with riddles and/or puzzles to solve. Something where most of the "multiple days" are spent at home working on puzzles (multiple hard puzzles are more fun to work on than a single "almost impossible" encryption), or following clues to find multiple hard stages in the field. Trekking again and again to the same spot on the same island to spend hours turning over rock after rock after rock would definitely be memorable, but not in a good way. Some cacher somewhere will eventually do it for the find, but few (if any) people will like it.

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Far too much emphasis is put on trying to hide 5/5 caches. I've done two. One took months to figure out the puzzle. And even then it was a stroke of lightning that set me off. Terrain was not 5. Probably a 2.5. The other was a moving cache that you could only find by finding it in another cache. Doubt that the terrain was really 5 on that one either. As I said: Too much emphasis on wanting 5/5. What I need for my Fizzy Squares are more 4.5 difficulty caches! Does anyone ever rate correctly and say: This is a 4.5 difficulty cache??? Or even: This is a 4.5 terrain cache?

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Also if your goal is to hide a 5-5 cache I would suggest you not use a regular key holder... find a tiny fake rock key holder.... then toss it into a pile of hundreds of rocks that look exactly like it... if you want to make it really hard try NOT to get good coords..... that will really make it hard

Good advice about the container. I've never seen a dry standard hide-a-key unless it hadn't rained in the area for a month, or the hiding spot was completely out of the weather. Unfortunately, the soft coords advice is horrible. Almost everyone here has mentioned how much the needle-in-a-haystack hide is despised. Soft coord hides are even worse. Good coords are If you add soft coords to a needle-in-a-haystack, and word gets around, the cache will never be found because everyone will add it to their ignore list.

 

 

Just to clarify I would never suggest using less that good coords... Well perhaps I just did but it was intended to be a bit saracastic as my next line read "However if you are looking to hide a fun cache that cachers will enjoy my advice is ....."

 

My assumption is that everyone that hides a cache wants it to be fun for those who seek it... Even though I have known caches that I am confident that the hider had other intent... and/or has a twisted sense of what fun is

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I have a good location for a cache and think I have a 5 star rating for both difficulty and terrain, but I'm fairly new and want some expert advice so I don't let anyone down. The cache will be on a small island on a lake that is about 3,000 acres so you will need a boat or some thick ice to get to it. On the island there are some random piles of rocks. I'm going to put it in a hide-a-key type of fake rock and set it with the other rocks. What kind of rating does this sound like to you????

 

Someone owns the island so be sure to get permission. Good Hiding!

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Well, I scoped the island a little better last night and I think I have a pretty good idea for a few stage multi within the island. I don't want to give away my plan on hear in case there is someone from my area reading these posts. If anyone from out of state is interested in hearing my general idea please email me. I would still like some feedback on difficulty from it b/c I think it sounds pretty difficult but fun... not a needle in a haystack, just some decisions and a surprise or two...

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Just to clarify I would never suggest using less that good coords... Well perhaps I just did but it was intended to be a bit saracastic as my next line read "However if you are looking to hide a fun cache that cachers will enjoy my advice is ....."

 

My assumption is that everyone that hides a cache wants it to be fun for those who seek it... Even though I have known caches that I am confident that the hider had other intent... and/or has a twisted sense of what fun is

I need to start doing a better job of reading the posts I'm replying to before posting a response. Sorry about the error :D:D:)
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