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Geocache Cheating?


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A friend is working on a site, named GeoCheat. He is using a wiki so anyone can edit it. It's basically a site, where people can upload caches, mainly unknown and multi, and post the final co-ordinates, and how to solve the puzzle for puzzle caches.

 

There are currently only about ten caches on GeoCheat.

 

Is this legal? What do you guys think? Would any of you use a site like this? I know there are many times I've been stuck and wished that someone would point me in the right direction.

 

geocheat.wikia.com

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A friend is working on a site, named GeoCheat. He is using a wiki so anyone can edit it. It's basically a site, where people can upload caches, mainly unknown and multi, and post the final co-ordinates, and how to solve the puzzle for puzzle caches.

 

There are currently only about ten caches on GeoCheat.

 

Is this legal? What do you guys think? Would any of you use a site like this? I know there are many times I've been stuck and wished that someone would point me in the right direction.

 

geocheat.wikia.com

 

Ok, If I joined and opened several accounts and uploaded the wrong final cords and incorrect answers to puzzle caches, would that be cheating? :P

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Might be worth watching just to see if any of our hides make it on...then I'd edit it alright! This is far different from a PAF IMHO, people could simply go to the site and find out what the coords to the multi finals are?

 

Sad! Hopefully it stays in that area and doesn't spread!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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I know there are many times I've been stuck and wished that someone would point me in the right direction.

 

Instead of a nudge in the right direction, this is more like a short cut to the finish line. So to me it is cheating because you didn't actually run the race. This would be like having a helicopter drop you off on top of a mountain to enjoy the mountain climbing experience. Legal? I'm aware of no rules against oafish behavior, so I guess it's legal.

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A friend is working on a site, named GeoCheat. He is using a wiki so anyone can edit it. It's basically a site, where people can upload caches, mainly unknown and multi, and post the final co-ordinates, and how to solve the puzzle for puzzle caches.

 

There are currently only about ten caches on GeoCheat.

 

Is this legal? What do you guys think? Would any of you use a site like this? I know there are many times I've been stuck and wished that someone would point me in the right direction.

 

geocheat.wikia.com

 

That site is showing extremely bad gamesmanship and I find it to be in very bad taste. Does this fellow participate in the local geocaching social realm at all? Does he attend events? Somehow I doubt it. What is the local reaction to the site, and do people know who he is (they, actually... looks like two admins running the site)

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Legal-probably. I'm not a lawyer, never played one on TV, and haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn in years.

Ethical-nope, not at all.

Within the spirit of this activity-not even close.

 

If he does manage to get this up and running I hope that it gets filled with bogus data rendering it worthless.

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That's just not the correct way of playing the game. These people should just make a site that lets them put smylies on the map and that's it. It's not about the finds but about the storyes and experiences that you get when you find a cache.

I've only found 15 caches and I remember each and every one of them and that is what GC is supposed to be.

 

I guess that you can trick them though. Just make a multi with 4 or more points and put a log in one of the middle points at random. The person won't be able to log a find if he isn't in first and the last log.

Edited by Team Veverca
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That's just not the correct way of playing the game. These people should just make a site that lets them put smylies on the map and that's it. It's not about the finds but about the storyes and experiences that you get when you find a cache.

I've only found 15 caches and I remember each and every one of them and that is what GC is supposed to be.

 

 

Oh, boy... here it comes!! :rolleyes:

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There's another site like this? Does anyone know the link?

 

Ahem! ... and why would you want the link to another cheater's site?

 

Just an interesting observation - All the listed caches on the cheat page have been found by the OP (The Cheese Eaters)

 

"Yes doctor, My FRIEND has this problem I'd like to ask you about."

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There's another site like this? Does anyone know the link?

 

The one I saw months ago was a Yahoo Group.

 

Yes, the most recent one discussed in here was a Yahoo Group for caches located in Vermont. A little public angst and outrage, and It was shut down (voluntarily) rather quickly.

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Is it legal? Yes, it is. There are no laws against this. But it's also legal to pass gas in a crowded elevator, drive 45mph in the left lane on a multi-lane highway (in some states, anyway), and to fill your plate by taking all the crab legs at an all-you-can-eat buffet.

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I would have to second guess the use of the term "friend" when discussing this person setting up that webpage. But that's just me, I am sure some of you have no problem with this behavior.

 

Friend? It seems awful odd the OP is the last finder of just about every one of the 8 caches listed on the website. (all in the Greater Montreal area). I'm just sayin' :rolleyes:

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Is it legal? Yes, it is. There are no laws against this. But it's also legal to pass gas in a crowded elevator, drive 45mph in the left lane on a multi-lane highway (in some states, anyway), and to fill your plate by taking all the crab legs at an all-you-can-eat buffet.

 

DayyyyyyyyyyYUmmmmmmmmmm! I don't care much for the left lane 45 MPH stuff but..........the other two scenarios are just the greatest sort of amusement where I live........down to the Shady Palms Trailer Court..Row 7, Lot #3! :laughing:

 

And not just crab legs but jumbo fried shrimp too! Now if you will excuse me I got to pick out some bluegrass on my banjo. :rolleyes:

 

And that elevator thang? There ain't nothin' more clever than a SBD and watchin' the shuffling, eye-rolling and such that goes on! It's a real study in psychology. I always wanted to take that up...that psychology stuff! :)

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I wish the unethical newspapers would stop printing the answers to the crossword elsewhere in the same edition as the puzzle. Wow! someone might look at the answers and just copy the whole grid.

 

And maybe the states' attorneys general can look into all of these websites. There ought to be a law. :rolleyes:

 

Yup, the op's site is just as lame as those. And using it is even lamer.

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What do you guys think?

 

I think your using this discussion as a back-door to advertising your website.

 

This was my first immediate impression. I'm sure that's advertising for his website.

 

My second impression was that cheating used to really get me going. really got me mad.

Now I don't care so much how others play.

I spent 3 hours getting one boat cache last weekend, rather than driving down the road and going the for the numbers. That's my choice.

 

My third impression was I wondered whether a couple particularly evil caches in my area were on that list. (Especially one where only a couple of people found it and they are friends with the cache owner.)

:rolleyes:

Edited by Sol seaker
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I wish the unethical newspapers would stop printing the answers to the crossword elsewhere in the same edition as the puzzle. Wow! someone might look at the answers and just copy the whole grid.

 

And maybe the states' attorneys general can look into all of these websites. There ought to be a law. :rolleyes:

 

Yup, the op's site is just as lame as those. And using it is even lamer.

 

Come to think of it, my 9 yr. old is all over those video game cheat websites. Maybe I really am just an obnoxious Puritan Geocacher!

 

Nah, forget that. :)

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I wish the unethical newspapers would stop printing the answers to the crossword elsewhere in the same edition as the puzzle. Wow! someone might look at the answers and just copy the whole grid.

I can't say for certain, but I imagine Will Shortz gave the paper permission to publish his answers.

Edited by Dinoprophet
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Funny thing about Wikis, for them to work you need to make them available to the public.

It also helps if you understand how the wiki software works as a site.....

 

I just looked at the site and there was only one cache available

 

8 caches in the Montreal area, all found in the upper left hand corner of this webpage under "Quebec caches". All last found by the OP, as mentioned previously. :rolleyes: Not necessarily all puzzle solutions, but also spoiler pics and spoiler info on traditionals.

 

EDIT: On second thought, forget that, someone is erasing them. They were there an hour ago, really.

Edited by TheWhiteUrkel
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EDIT: On second thought, forget that, someone is erasing them. They were there an hour ago, really.

 

Looks as though there is a Wiki war going on. Look at the History tabs:

 

Someone is deleting some of them them,

(cur) (prev) 16:38, 3 June 2009 24.214.37.45 (Talk) (empty) (Removing all content from page) (undo)

 

on others, the admin (HugoC) is protecting them:

(cur) (prev) 20:11, 1 June 2009 HugoC (Talk | contribs) m (17,804 bytes) (Protected "La Cache à Maëv

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Having seen the site, I'm not so sure it *is* legal. It copies text and information from this site, violating copyright owned by this site and the cache owners. At a minimum, it violates the site's terms of use.

 

I can see how it could be construed as an alternate listing site. Not sure if it fits the legal definition, but that would be for Groundspeak to worry about, I guess. I seriously doubt they'd let their lawyers spend 5 minutes thinking about it, though.

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I wish the unethical newspapers would stop printing the answers to the crossword elsewhere in the same edition as the puzzle. Wow! someone might look at the answers and just copy the whole grid.

I can't say for certain, but I imagine Will Shortz gave the paper permission to publish his answers.

That wasn't exactly the point I was trying to make. People who like to work the crossword will work the crossword and not look at the answers at all. Some people won't look until they get stuck, and will try as hard as they can to avoid looking at more that the one word they are stuck on. My guess is that with cheat sites people who enjoy working the puzzles will not look at these sites. Some people may look for a hint and hopefully the site will provide some way to get hints without having the answer forced on you, but if not people who only want a hint will soon stop looking. Yes, some people will look up the answer to find the cache and get a smiley for signing the log. So what? They had fun finding the cache and solving a puzzle was obviously not that important to them.

 

I take my cue from Will Shortz. On NPR Weekend Edition they have listeners call in for a puzzle quiz. If the listener is having trouble with the on air puzzle, Will Shortz quickly starts giving hints. He wants people to have fun with his puzzle and not feel frustrated. But it doesn't stop with hints; the host of the show, Liane Hansen, will blurt out an answer she knows that the listener is having trouble with. I've never heard Will Shortz complain that she gave away the answer to his puzzle.

 

I see my puzzles as something for the community that likes to combine puzzle solving with caching. If someone solves a puzzle and takes a group of friends to go find the cache, I don't delete the logs of the friends who didn't solve the puzzle. If someone finds my cache because they stumbled on it while looking for a place to hide their own cache, I don't delete their log for not solving the puzzle. If the answers are being shared, I don't really care. The people who like puzzles are probably not asking for the answers so they can solve the puzzle themselves. I know sometimes a previous finder will give a hint to someone having trouble. I'll even give a hint if someone asks (though few ask me for hints because my hints tend to be pretty cryptic). I don't care, these people generally write they had fun solving the puzzle and if they didn't solve the puzzle then at least they write they had fun finding the cache. I suppose someone will say that someone needing a difficulty 5 cache to complete a fizzy challenge could get the answers to a 5 star puzzle and claim it without having done anything that is really difficulty 5. My answer to this is that I don't really count most challenge caches as proving anything anyhow - especially fizzy challenges. There are just too many misrated caches. And difficulty ratings on puzzles are notoriously subjective. I just can't see why puzzle owners need to get out the torches and pitchforks every time somebody posts about another cheat site.

Edited by tozainamboku
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I wish the unethical newspapers would stop printing the answers to the crossword elsewhere in the same edition as the puzzle. Wow! someone might look at the answers and just copy the whole grid.

I can't say for certain, but I imagine Will Shortz gave the paper permission to publish his answers.

That wasn't exactly the point I was trying to make. People who like to work the crossword will work the crossword and not look at the answers at all. Some people won't look until they get stuck, and will try as hard as they can to avoid looking at more that the one word they are stuck on. My guess is that with cheat sites people who enjoy working the puzzles will not look at these sites. Some people may look for a hint and hopefully the site will provide some way to get hints without having the answer forced on you, but if not people who only want a hint will soon stop looking. Yes, some people will look up the answer to find the cache and get a smiley for signing the log. So what? They had fun finding the cache and solving a puzzle was obviously not that important to them.

 

I take my cue from Will Shortz. On NPR Weekend Edition they have listeners call in for a puzzle quiz. If the listener is having trouble with the on air puzzle, Will Shortz quickly starts giving hints. He wants people to have fun with his puzzle and not feel frustrated. But it doesn't stop with hints; the host of the show, Liane Hansen, will blurt out an answer she knows that the listener is having trouble with. I've never heard Will Shortz complain that she gave away the answer to his puzzle.

 

I see my puzzles as something for the community that likes to combine puzzle solving with caching. If someone solves a puzzle and takes a group of friends to go find the cache, I don't delete the logs of the friends who didn't solve the puzzle. If someone finds my cache because they stumbled on it while looking for a place to hide their own cache, I don't delete their log for not solving the puzzle. If the answers are being shared, I don't really care. The people who like puzzles are probably not asking for the answers so they can solve the puzzle themselves. I know sometimes a previous finder will give a hint to someone having trouble. I'll even give a hint if someone asks (though few ask me for hints because my hints tend to be pretty cryptic). I don't care, these people generally write they had fun solving the puzzle and if they didn't solve the puzzle then at least they write they had fun finding the cache. I suppose someone will say that someone needing a difficulty 5 cache to complete a fizzy challenge could get the answers to a 5 star puzzle and claim it without having done anything that is really difficulty 5. My answer to this is that I don't really count most challenge caches as proving anything anyhow - especially fizzy challenges. There are just too many misrated caches. And difficulty ratings on puzzles are notoriously subjective. I just can't see why puzzle owners need to get out the torches and pitchforks every time somebody posts about another cheat site.

But my point is, Will should be able to hang up and take the next unspoiled caller if he chooses. If a puzzle owner doesn't want their cache spoiled, that should be their right.

 

I would have zero problem whatsoever with a cheat site that got the cache owner's permission first. If a cheat site doesn't want to do that, then I have to wonder why that is.

Edited by Dinoprophet
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Having seen the site, I'm not so sure it *is* legal. It copies text and information from this site, violating copyright owned by this site and the cache owners. At a minimum, it violates the site's terms of use.

 

I can see how it could be construed as an alternate listing site. Not sure if it fits the legal definition, but that would be for Groundspeak to worry about, I guess. I seriously doubt they'd let their lawyers spend 5 minutes thinking about it, though.

I’ll get this really going.

 

The Cache owner developed the hide / puzzle and published the intellectual work for others to experience and enjoy. Since he / she is the creator of the work they would be granted legal property rights for the intellectual property that their mind created. By the site publishing their work AND giving the solutions the site / individual may be in violation of the law by denying others the right to perform the same action (the puzzle / hide ) or to acquire the same benefit that the cache owner intended.

 

Not a lawyer and never slept in a Best Western.

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But my point is, Will should be able to hang up and take the next unspoiled caller if he chooses. If a puzzle owner doesn't want their cache spoiled, that should be their right.

 

I would have zero problem whatsoever with a cheat site that got the cache owner's permission first. If a cheat site doesn't want to do that, then I have to wonder why that is.

 

Geocaching is about using a GPS to find something hidden. The "game" has evolved into many things, including puzzle caches, but the basics remain the same.

Any purist will tell you that the cache location is the prize and not solving the puzzle (some of which are absolutely ridiculous).

 

Having a spoiler site isn't illegal, nor immoral. It is up to the seeker to decide if they want to use the spoiler site or not.

 

Personally, at this point, I avoid puzzle caches. My enjoyment of geocaching is about going out and about. Not trying to solve some ridiculous puzzle. I can solve puzzles while sitting on my butt in my living room.

 

No offense intended.

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But my point is, Will should be able to hang up and take the next unspoiled caller if he chooses. If a puzzle owner doesn't want their cache spoiled, that should be their right.

 

I would have zero problem whatsoever with a cheat site that got the cache owner's permission first. If a cheat site doesn't want to do that, then I have to wonder why that is.

 

Geocaching is about using a GPS to find something hidden. The "game" has evolved into many things, including puzzle caches, but the basics remain the same.

Any purist will tell you that the cache location is the prize and not solving the puzzle (some of which are absolutely ridiculous).

I don't think anyone said solving the puzzle is the prize. If someone did, why would that person look for the cache? I would argue, however, that more often than not, the trek to the cache is the prize, not necessarily the cache location, puzzle or no.

Having a spoiler site isn't illegal, nor immoral.

Maybe not. What about copying text without permission?

It is up to the seeker to decide if they want to use the spoiler site or not.

It should be up to the hider whether the spoiler is available. It is then up to the seeker whether to hunt that cache or not. No one is entitled to be able to find every available cache.

Personally, at this point, I avoid puzzle caches. My enjoyment of geocaching is about going out and about. Not trying to solve some ridiculous puzzle. I can solve puzzles while sitting on my butt in my living room.

Fair enough. What do you think of multis, which this site also promises to spoil? Or hard-to-find traditionals, also spoilable?

No offense intended.

None taken.

Edited by Dinoprophet
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Any purist will tell you that...

 

Thank you for clarifying your position. There's a Real Geocacher in another thread that would probably enjoy debating the purity of the game with you.

 

Not trying to solve some ridiculous puzzle. I can solve puzzles while sitting on my butt in my living room.

 

generally that is what one does. Then they get up off their butt and go find the cache.

What? You mean I didn't have to stand on my head, balancing flower pots on one hand and foot, while solving them?

Edited by Chrysalides
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I wish the unethical newspapers would stop printing the answers to the crossword elsewhere in the same edition as the puzzle. Wow! someone might look at the answers and just copy the whole grid.

 

And maybe the states' attorneys general can look into all of these websites. There ought to be a law. :rolleyes:

 

Yup, the op's site is just as lame as those. And using it is even lamer.

 

I wouldnt hold videogame cheats in the same light as cheating at geocaching. In fact most games that have "cheats" are actually features or unlockables. If you are speaking about walkthroughs, i dont really have an arguement, it depends on how "hardcore" you are about games. I find walkthroughs harmless.

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All You Can Eat Buffets purposely use small in-shell crab legs. They are such a hassle to open they aren’t worth filling up on (still fun to try though).

 

A brief paragraph describing a cache doesn’t qualify as a protected intellectual property.

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As for the analogy with video games...

 

The cheat codes and walkthroughs are for single player games, and scores don't get posted online. Try to cheat in a multi-player game (including, in some instances, the use of macro programmable keyboards) and you'll see how efficient these sites are at policing themselves.

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But my point is, Will should be able to hang up and take the next unspoiled caller if he chooses. If a puzzle owner doesn't want their cache spoiled, that should be their right.

 

I would have zero problem whatsoever with a cheat site that got the cache owner's permission first. If a cheat site doesn't want to do that, then I have to wonder why that is.

 

Geocaching is about using a GPS to find something hidden. The "game" has evolved into many things, including puzzle caches, but the basics remain the same.

Any purist will tell you that the cache location is the prize and not solving the puzzle (some of which are absolutely ridiculous).

I don't think anyone said solving the puzzle is the prize. If someone did, why would that person look for the cache? I would argue, however, that more often than not, the trek to the cache is the prize, not necessarily the cache location, puzzle or no.

Having a spoiler site isn't illegal, nor immoral.

Maybe not. What about copying text without permission?

It is up to the seeker to decide if they want to use the spoiler site or not.

It should be up to the hider whether the spoiler is available. It is then up to the seeker whether to hunt that cache or not. No one is entitled to be able to find every available cache.

Personally, at this point, I avoid puzzle caches. My enjoyment of geocaching is about going out and about. Not trying to solve some ridiculous puzzle. I can solve puzzles while sitting on my butt in my living room.

Fair enough. What do you think of multis, which this site also promises to spoil? Or hard-to-find traditionals, also spoilable?

No offense intended.

None taken.

 

Whenever proclaims what geocaching is supposed to be or the right way to play the came, there are always going to be exceptions.

 

I know for a fact there there are many geocachers that solve puzzle caches hundreds if not thousands of miles from their home coordinates. For example, I worked on a puzzle for a couple of weeks but didn't quite finish solving it. The cache is located in South Africa, about 7800 miles from where I live. While I didn't find the cache, I did enjoy the portions of the puzzle that I solved and also had some good email conversations with the cache owner. I got more enjoyment out of those aspects of geocaching than searching for and finding lots of park and grab caches.

 

I don't consider working on puzzles for unknown cache types and actually going out seeking and finding geocaches as competing activities. There are times when I can go geocaching and times when I can't and can spend working on geocache puzzles instead.

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Not trying to solve some ridiculous puzzle. I can solve puzzles while sitting on my butt in my living room.
generally that is what one does. Then they get up off their butt and go find the cache.
What? You mean I didn't have to stand on my head, balancing flower pots on one hand and foot, while solving them?
Not under the new guidelines. Edited by sbell111
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Personally, at this point, I avoid puzzle caches. My enjoyment of geocaching is about going out and about. Not trying to solve some ridiculous puzzle. I can solve puzzles while sitting on my butt in my living room.

Fair enough. What do you think of multis, which this site also promises to spoil? Or hard-to-find traditionals, also spoilable?

 

For example, because I'm sure very few people saw it. Before people starting messing with the Original Poster's Ooops Errrrrrr, I mean his friend's webpages, there was at least one multi, and at least one 1.5/1.5 urban micro up on the website. They contained verbal spoiler information and pictures. One for example had a picture of a tree, with red text and an arrow pointing to the cache scrawled over the pic.

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