GC/LB Hybrid Question

[+swizzle]

Recently I was looking for a new location for a GC and I stumbled onto yet another letterbox. I e-mailed the owner about making it into a possible GC/LB Hybrid and she said that it would be cool if I wanted to. The letterbox part is all set up. Do I just add a log book and coords and its good to go? I plan on doing a copy and paste of the letterboxes listing into the GC as well as adding to the listing. I know you have to put it in big bold letters that the stamp is not a trade item. I think it would be better off if this cache wasn't used for trades at all. Just sign the log and go. I'm assuming its ok to have 1 person from LBing and 1 from GCing to be co-owners of the same cache. Do I have to have my own personal stamp in the box as well or is it fine with one already in there? Thanx, Swizzle

Edited May 29, 2009 by swizzle

[+Ockette]

I was under the impression that GC/LB hybrids were offset caches, with the coordinates at a starting point and letterbox-style clues from there to the cache.

[+Knight2000]

I was under the impression that GC/LB hybrids were offset caches, with the coordinates at a starting point and letterbox-style clues from there to the cache.

I thought so too, but I suppose not. I have only found one and it was at the listed coords. I dunno?

 

Letterbox Hybrid

 

Letterboxing is another form of treasure hunting that uses clues to direct hunters to a hidden container. Each letterbox contains a stamp which is the signature for that box. Most letterboxers have their own personal stamps and personal logbooks. They stamp the letterbox logbook with their personal stamp, and use the stamp contained in the letterbox to "sign" their personal logbook.

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues. Whether or not the letterbox hybrid contains trade items is up to the owner. In most cases personal stamp and personal logbook are not necessary to be a seeker of a letterbox hybrid.

[+swizzle]

Well I want to make sure its done right so if I need to get coords. to the general area and then let people search for it from the LB description then that's what I'll do. I've never set up one before so any help will be great. Thanx for the info. Swizzle

[+JPatton]

All the LB Hybrids I've found have been at the posted coordinates. I always thought they were hybrids because they were listed on gc.com and on a letterbox site. If you wanted to log it on gc.com, you found it like any other cache, using your gps. If you logged it as a letterbox, you found it using the clues provided on that site.

[+Bear and Ragged]

I've found a Letterbox hybrid where the co-ords were the car park, and you had clues to follow to get to the Letterbox/cache.

eg From car park head west, at the start of the footpath head south X yards, look east under the trees, etc.

[+DanOCan]

I've seen them listed both ways. Never understood the point of changing the cache icon here just because it is listed on a letterboxing site if the cache is at the posted coordinates. To me that is just a Traditional cache. After all, gc.com doesn't give a cache a different icon if it happens to be listed at one of those "other" caching sites...

Edited May 30, 2009 by DanOCan

[Keystone]

The distinguishing characteristic of a letterbox hybrid cache is that it contains a letterboxing stamp -- NOT that it is cross-listed on a letterboxing site, or that it relies solely on letterbox clues, or that it "has" to be an offset cache.

 

Like all other geocaches, letterbox hybrid caches must rely upon GPS use somewhere along the way as an "integral part of the hunt." Finding the parking lot isn't very "integral." Better examples include a cache placed at the posted coordinates, a set of letterboxing clues which lead to a tag containing coordinates for a cache, or going to a random spot in the woods using GPS coordinates and then following letterbox clues from there.

 

In six years of being a cache reviewer and forum moderator, I don't recall ever seeing a container that was listed as a letterbox by one owner on a letterboxing site, and listed as a geocache by the other owner on Geocaching.com. That doesn't mean it cannot be done.

[+swizzle]

The LB is located on the parking area so to speak. If I parked my car next to it I would litteral be less then 3 feet from the cache. So if I posted the coords as the parking area would it be unacceptable because it only gets me to the parking area and its not an "Integral Part" of the hunt? I just want to get all my ducks in a row. So once that part is figured out then what? Just post the coords and add a logbook for geocachers? Would it be acceptable to do a copy and paste of the LB listing or should I make a seperate type of geohunt insructions for geocachers? I know of a nice tree hole a hundred feet or so past the cache. Maybe post the coords to there with instructions on how to get back to the cache? Swizzle

[+hukilaulau]

The distinguishing characteristic of a letterbox hybrid cache is that it contains a letterboxing stamp -- NOT that it is cross-listed on a letterboxing site, or that it relies solely on letterbox clues, or that it "has" to be an offset cache.

 

Like all other geocaches, letterbox hybrid caches must rely upon GPS use somewhere along the way as an "integral part of the hunt." Finding the parking lot isn't very "integral." Better examples include a cache placed at the posted coordinates, a set of letterboxing clues which lead to a tag containing coordinates for a cache, or going to a random spot in the woods using GPS coordinates and then following letterbox clues from there.

 

In six years of being a cache reviewer and forum moderator, I don't recall ever seeing a container that was listed as a letterbox by one owner on a letterboxing site, and listed as a geocache by the other owner on Geocaching.com. That doesn't mean it cannot be done.

I have found at least two that were listed on both letterboxing and geocache websites, by the same owner for both sites. Another started as a letterox in 1999 and then switched to a geocache by the owner a few years later. I initially thought that's what "hybrid" meant, but most of the ones I've found have not been listed on letterboxing sites. I think the idea of having one cache crosslisted on both sites by different owners is great! I don't think the letteroxing folks are going to create a category called "geocache hybrids" though!

Edited May 30, 2009 by hukilaulau

[+Taoiseach]

I was under the impression that GC/LB hybrids were offset caches, with the coordinates at a starting point and letterbox-style clues from there to the cache.

 

I thought so too, but I suppose not. I have only found one and it was at the listed coords. I dunno?

 

 

Don't be discouraged by people who are so dreadfully uninspired (and quite frankly lazy) that they can't make a Letterbox Hybrid better than any other crappy Traditional.

 

I call these examples of lazy caches, that really do nothing better than get their owners another icon 'Letterstamp Traditionals.'

 

Despite the poorly worded Guideline on the matter (This is really my only gripe about the way Groundspeak does things), Letterbox Hybrids are not Traditionals! If this is the way people want to play the game, I suppose that we could all post the finals to our puzzles, Multis and Letterboxes, and let people find them as Traditionals, if they're so inclined...

 

Anyway, on to the serious matter at hand. Letterbox Hybrids are effective clue based Multis. As they are required to have some element of GPS usage, a well designed Letterbox should have both GPS based stages, and traditional letterboxing stages.

 

An example of this, is that all of my Letterboxes have you start at the posted co-ordinates (this is generally considered to not be enough GPS Usage). After going to the posted, I instruct the finder to look for an object (e.g. A 'Large Wooden Object'). This continues, as the finder is lead throughout the cache, visiting various locations, that they reach based on my instructions, rather than co-ordinates. Along the way, the finder picks up some information. Once you reach either the end of the course (or perhaps at some other point along the was, as is the case with my 'Welcome To Ottawa' Letterbox), I instruct the finder to mark a waypoint, and to adjust it to something along the lines of N45 xx.x12 W075 xx.x34. After doing so, I have the finder do something with the information that they gathered along the way, in order to determine a distance and bearing. From there, I have the finder make a projection from their waypoint to the final. The need for a projection puts GPS usage into the equation.

 

To put it simply -

 

1) Start at the posted co-ords

2) Lots of Letterboxing fun, picking up information, such as numbers along the way

3) Projection (required GPS usage)

4) Final cache

 

I point you to all three of my Letterbox Hybrids, as well as the Nearby 'Welcome to Gatineau' for further examples of what a Letterbox Hybrid should be. You certainly don't have to make them as long and complicated as I do... Unless you want to, that is!

 

Of course, All Letterboxes need to have a stamp in them... Preferably a hand carved one. I have 3 Letterboxes hidden, and Five stamps out in the Ottawa Area. However, despite what so many people have been lead to believe, the stamp is not what makes it a Letterbox. There is a standing offer out, that if any local cacher wants to put out a proper Letterbox Hybrid, I'll happily carve them a stamp. Now, I don't want to have a make a lot of them, however if anyone here is interested, send me a copy of your potential cache description. If somebody were to impress me, and it won't cost me an arm and a leg to mail it to you (one would easily fit into a standard envelope), I might be willing to make one, and send it to you!

 

I know that geocaching.com's guidelines do technically permit Letterstamp Traditionals, however they are just lame. It's Icon Hunting, and nothing more. As far as I'm concerned, One Letterstamp Traditional is lamer than 50 LPCs!

Edited May 30, 2009 by Taoiseach

[+briansnat]

I was under the impression that GC/LB hybrids were offset caches, with the coordinates at a starting point and letterbox-style clues from there to the cache.

 

I thought so too, but I suppose not. I have only found one and it was at the listed coords. I dunno?

 

 

Don't be discouraged by people who are so dreadfully uninspired (and quite frankly lazy) that they can't make a Letterbox Hybrid better than any other crappy Traditional.

 

 

A letterbox hybrid is simply a geocache and a letterbox, not necessarily a geocache that is like a letterbox. The original idea was to make the a box that was available to both geocachers and letterboxers, not to give geocachers a letterboxing type experience. There is nothing lazy about someone who choses to make his letterbox hybrid a traditional style cache. It's just a matter of preference.

 

If you choose to make your letterbox hybrid an offset cache, great. If you want to place it at the posted coordinates that's fine too.

[+Taoiseach]

A letterbox hybrid is simply a geocache and a letterbox, not necessarily a geocache that is like a letterbox. The original idea was to make the a box that was available to both geocachers and letterboxers, not to give geocachers a letterboxing type experience. There is nothing lazy about someone who choses to make his letterbox hybrid a traditional style cache. It's just a matter of preference.

 

If you choose to make your letterbox hybrid an offset cache, great. If you want to place it at the posted coordinates that's fine too.

 

I know... I know... Nonetheless, putting out a traditional and calling it a Letterbox Hybrid is unimaginative and lame! Especially as I would hazard that a good portion of these Letterstamp Traditionals aren't cross-listed

[+briansnat]

A letterbox hybrid is simply a geocache and a letterbox, not necessarily a geocache that is like a letterbox. The original idea was to make the a box that was available to both geocachers and letterboxers, not to give geocachers a letterboxing type experience. There is nothing lazy about someone who choses to make his letterbox hybrid a traditional style cache. It's just a matter of preference.

 

If you choose to make your letterbox hybrid an offset cache, great. If you want to place it at the posted coordinates that's fine too.

 

I know... I know... Nonetheless, putting out a traditional and calling it a Letterbox Hybrid is unimaginative and lame! Especially as I would hazard that a good portion of these Letterstamp Traditionals aren't cross-listed

 

Not really. In fact the placer may have cross listed it and put together some neat letterboxing clues on a LB site. You are right, cross listing does make sense if you want letterboxers to find your hybrid, but GPS coords could be a legit letterboxing clue and a LBer could conceivably come here to search for hybrids if they wanted to.

[+swizzle]

All right I think I've decide how I want to do it. I'm going to post the coords past the cache to a simple set of instructions on where the location is. I'm not going to be specific about the exact location. But if they want to find it quicker they can look it up on the LBing site for even simplier directions. I'll post the LB owners name along side of mine on the GC listing and then work out any bugs from there. I can't believe there's so much controversy over a hidden trinket box. It seems to me that we're turning something that's meant to be a nice day out in an enjoyable place into another reason to argue. I cache to find places of solitude and peace so I can revisit those spots. For me its not about the numbers but the quality of the locations that I'm bringing people too. Swizzle

[+J-Way]

Like all other geocaches, letterbox hybrid caches must rely upon GPS use somewhere along the way as an "integral part of the hunt." Finding the parking lot isn't very "integral." Better examples include a cache placed at the posted coordinates, a set of letterboxing clues which lead to a tag containing coordinates for a cache, or going to a random spot in the woods using GPS coordinates and then following letterbox clues from there.

The LB is located on the parking area so to speak. If I parked my car next to it I would litteral be less then 3 feet from the cache. So if I posted the coords as the parking area would it be unacceptable because it only gets me to the parking area and its not an "Integral Part" of the hunt? I just want to get all my ducks in a row. So once that part is figured out then what? Just post the coords and add a logbook for geocachers? Would it be acceptable to do a copy and paste of the LB listing or should I make a seperate type of geohunt insructions for geocachers? I know of a nice tree hole a hundred feet or so past the cache. Maybe post the coords to there with instructions on how to get back to the cache? Swizzle

I LOVE this example!!! I've heard time and again that the published coords for a letterbox cannot be just to the parking lot because that doesn't require enough GPS usage. The immediate question that springs to my mind it, what about caches that are in parking lots? Can I put the listed coords somewhere else in the parking lot and have the seeker follow clues to the cache? Do I have to put the coords somewhere on a nearby trail and have them come back to the parking lot? How does this affect LPCs?

[+Knight2000]

I agree with Taoiseach.

 

I think a hybrid should be like a letterbox but also be a geocache. As I understand LB do not contain trade items. I went caching with someone who had never cached but their family letterboxed and they were surprised by the trade items of the geocaches.

 

I do think it is a bit lazy, but lets face it, many geocache placements are lazy.

 

I have only found on hybrid. It was a lock&lock 6 feet away from the car, at listed coords. It was a geocache with a stamp. Ehh.

[+geodarts]

When I was in England, before discovering geocaching, my wife and I were driving through the Dartmoor area and I read about how letterboxing started there -- and that there were even boxes that required you to get information from certain pubs. I might have changed our vacation plans then and there, but my wife was not nearly as interested as I was. Just as well, but that is another story. Upon my return, I did some letterboxes in my area, and soon after discovered geocaching.

 

So to me, a letterbox hybrid "should"(yes, I know) reflect the basic elements of a true letterbox -- which is more than just a stamp. One of the last ones I did was just a straight multi, which seemed like it had nothing to do with a letterbox. It fits the guidelines, but I would have ignored it except my wife pointed out that at least I could get another number on the lb icon.

 

Then again, some other letterboxes just have you go to a specified place, take a few steps to a particular tree, turn left and find the cache. That is fine for what it is, but the concept should leave room for creativity that reflects the history and spirit of letterboxing or to place caches that are accessible to both groups.

 

Some letterboxers get touchy around cachers for various reasons. While only a few letterboxers have found my letterbox cache, I am proud of it in part because it has been appreciated by both groups. I suppose that mine would need more gps input under current standards, since the coordinates take you to a trailhead. But it has as much as some others. So this is a long way of asking what is the difference between using the gps to go to a random spot in the woods or a place on the sidewalk -- and then following directions -- and using it to go to a trailhead?

 

There are many caches where you do not need any more gps input than a parking spot. Some that can be found without a gps at all. And there are also traditionals that are in areas where you need letterbox-type of directions because the gps reception is spotty at best. The whole thing can get rather fuzzy.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Erickson

[+Castle Mischief]

 

I LOVE this example!!! I've heard time and again that the published coords for a letterbox cannot be just to the parking lot because that doesn't require enough GPS usage. The immediate question that springs to my mind it, what about caches that are in parking lots? Can I put the listed coords somewhere else in the parking lot and have the seeker follow clues to the cache? Do I have to put the coords somewhere on a nearby trail and have them come back to the parking lot? How does this affect LPCs?

 

I've struggled with this too. How is using my GPSr to get coords in a parking lot intrinsically different from using the GPSr to get to coords in the woods? Is it the walking vs. the driving? Is it the natural setting vs. the man-made setting?

 

If I drive my car into the woods to get to the coords (LOOK OUT BAMBI!), does that make it different from walking to the woodland coords and/or driving to the other coords in the parking lot?

 

If I use the wife's Nuvi to drive to an area that I've never been to and find a cache that doesn't require me to even exit the vehicle, did I make use of the GPS enough to satisfy the "integral part" clause?

 

(With all due respect) the definition that Keystone used asks more questions than it answers.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Castle Mischief

[+geodarts]

 

If I drive my car into the woods to get to the coords (LOOK OUT BAMBI!), does that make it different from walking to the woodland coords and/or driving to the other coords in the parking lot?

 

Now I know what all these crashes that we seem to find in the middle of the woods were doing.

[+Castle Mischief]

 

If I drive my car into the woods to get to the coords (LOOK OUT BAMBI!), does that make it different from walking to the woodland coords and/or driving to the other coords in the parking lot?

 

Now I know what all these crashes that we seem to find in the middle of the woods were doing.

 

Like this?

 

 

I'll bet that's a Waymarking catagory...

[+L0ne.R]

As I understand LB do not contain trade items.

I would argue that letterboxes do indeed contain a trade item - the stamp image. Take the letterbox's stamp image and stamp it in your personal logbook and stamp your signature stamp in the letterbox's logbook. It's a trade of stamp images. Some people like to collect cache trinkets, some people like to collect stamp images.

[+Castle Mischief]

As I understand LB do not contain trade items.

I would argue that letterboxes do indeed contain a trade item - the stamp image. Take the letterbox's stamp image and stamp it in your personal logbook and stamp your signature stamp in the letterbox's logbook. It's a trade of stamp images. Some people like to collect cache trinkets, some people like to collect stamp images.

 

Having searched for letterboxes long before caching, I can say that nearly all the LBs that we found did have some kind of trinket or small toy in them.

[+Taoiseach]

I agree with Taoiseach.

 

- Yay! I'm expanding my boundaries, as far as my position as the National Capital Region's Letterbox Advocate!

 

I have only found on hybrid. It was a lock&lock 6 feet away from the car, at listed coords. It was a geocache with a stamp. Ehh.

 

Ehh... is exactly what I think of them too - There's a reason as to why they have their own separate icon. I don't really accept the notion that the Letterbox Hybrid icon is for the purposes of cross-listing. You could cross-list a Letterbox as a Traditional, if that's what you want to do...

[Mr.Yuck]

The distinguishing characteristic of a letterbox hybrid cache is that it contains a letterboxing stamp -- NOT that it is cross-listed on a letterboxing site, or that it relies solely on letterbox clues, or that it "has" to be an offset cache.

 

Like all other geocaches, letterbox hybrid caches must rely upon GPS use somewhere along the way as an "integral part of the hunt." Finding the parking lot isn't very "integral." Better examples include a cache placed at the posted coordinates, a set of letterboxing clues which lead to a tag containing coordinates for a cache, or going to a random spot in the woods using GPS coordinates and then following letterbox clues from there.

 

In six years of being a cache reviewer and forum moderator, I don't recall ever seeing a container that was listed as a letterbox by one owner on a letterboxing site, and listed as a geocache by the other owner on Geocaching.com. That doesn't mean it cannot be done.

 

Thank you Keystone. The speculation up to that point was killing me. I am also totally shocked a letterboxer agreed to cross-list when contacted. Must be a Letterboxing newb.

 

I've found 14 letterbox hybrids. Only one used clues (like an '04 placement, before the "GPS usage" thing was prevalent). Almost half of them make no mention of ever containing a stamp, essentially being nothing but a traditional Geocache. I suspect some people just wanted a cool icon in their hide stats.

 

None of them were cross-listed, and I've seen the descriptions for dozens more, and am not aware of any being cross-listed. But I see we did have a couple examples.

[J.A.R.S.]

None of them were cross-listed, and I've seen the descriptions for dozens more, and am not aware of any being cross-listed. But I see we did have a couple examples.

All of my letterbox hybrids are cross-listed, because it opens the letterboxes up to a wider audience. What I do most often is put a link in my Atlas Quest clue page to my GC.com clue page. Here's an example: http://www.atlasquest.com/showinfo.html?gBoxId=639

[+geodarts]

All of my letterbox hybrids are cross-listed, because it opens the letterboxes up to a wider audience. What I do most often is put a link in my Atlas Quest clue page to my GC.com clue page.

 

Exactly. I was not going to go to all the work of putting one together and not cross-list it on Atlas and Letterboxing.org. Although in my case the wider audience has only been a couple of letterboxing visitors, one of them wrote me to say thanks for making sure that everything was complete for them and for placing it. So it made me feel good.

 

I may do another.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Erickson