Software (and hardware)

[+Happy Humphrey]

Anyone else getting fed up with this? Mapping software seems to be the worst.

 

I have 3 Garmin "mapping" GPSr devices, all registered with Garmin, and some Garmin maps, also registered. You'd expect that any map could be loaded onto any device, bearing in mind that they can detect the device ID and the software ID and verify that they are mine. No; you are meant to buy separate licences for each map for each device. Who has the money to do that? All I end up doing is having the latest map on one device, and then the others have to make do with the older versions. Hardly good business, as it just annoys me, it costs Garmin money (because they have to maintain the registration details and software), and I'm more inclined to look at the competition in the future.

 

Memory Map seems to have a similar model, although I know there are get-rounds to some extent.

 

Today's annoyance is with Anquet Maps (a competitor with MM, with similar products). They are advertising new Isle of Man 1:25000 maps for £15. Interesting, and I have a registered version of Anquet, bought about four years ago but uninstalled when I decided to buy full MM coverage instead.

 

Unfortunately, this "old" version (1) is not compatible with the new maps (which require version 6). So I'm meant to buy a new v6 licence for Anquet, which as a registered user I get for half price (it's not quite clear, but I think that this would cost about £15: not a huge price but it doubles the cost and gives me nothing extra that I actually need). So I'm not going ahead with it. I would've spent the £15 had I been allowed to use it with version 1 (which works perfectly well). How is losing a £15 sale good business?

 

This might be common practice these days, but IMO it's not a good way to sell luxury items during a recession.

 

I don't expect any "answers"; I'm just having a good grumble!

[team tisri]

Anyone else getting fed up with this? Mapping software seems to be the worst.

 

I have 3 Garmin "mapping" GPSr devices, all registered with Garmin, and some Garmin maps, also registered. You'd expect that any map could be loaded onto any device, bearing in mind that they can detect the device ID and the software ID and verify that they are mine. No; you are meant to buy separate licences for each map for each device. Who has the money to do that? All I end up doing is having the latest map on one device, and then the others have to make do with the older versions. Hardly good business, as it just annoys me, it costs Garmin money (because they have to maintain the registration details and software), and I'm more inclined to look at the competition in the future.

 

Memory Map seems to have a similar model, although I know there are get-rounds to some extent.

 

Today's annoyance is with Anquet Maps (a competitor with MM, with similar products). They are advertising new Isle of Man 1:25000 maps for £15. Interesting, and I have a registered version of Anquet, bought about four years ago but uninstalled when I decided to buy full MM coverage instead.

 

Unfortunately, this "old" version (1) is not compatible with the new maps (which require version 6). So I'm meant to buy a new v6 licence for Anquet, which as a registered user I get for half price (it's not quite clear, but I think that this would cost about £15: not a huge price but it doubles the cost and gives me nothing extra that I actually need). So I'm not going ahead with it. I would've spent the £15 had I been allowed to use it with version 1 (which works perfectly well). How is losing a £15 sale good business?

 

This might be common practice these days, but IMO it's not a good way to sell luxury items during a recession.

 

I don't expect any "answers"; I'm just having a good grumble!

 

Know what you mean - I have three Garmin units and maps covering Europe and the US. Unfortunately to put the US routing maps on my new device means I need to buy a new license.

 

So, when my 60CSx is due a replacement, if buying new licenses for all my maps is required I might as well look at everybody else's offerings since Garmin have no lock-in. If I could just transfer a license to a new unit then the old one gets grandfathered and the new one is almost certainly going to be a Garmin. If I can't then staying with Garmin gives no advantage.

 

It's odd, but I think the problem is with the people who supply the mapping data rather than Garmin themselves.

[+gse1986]

With the Garmin maps it is possible (with some maps anyway) to request a second code through the "myGarmin" site. I got a Venture HC from eBay with the topo GB maps and then when my brother got a mapping Garmin i managed to request a second code through myGarmin and so we can have the maps on both devices. I must admit though, had my Venture HC not come with the topo maps I wouldn't have bought them. There are a number of alternatives; talky toasters maps, and some others too.

 

I don't get why they have to be so expensive the maps

[+Happy Humphrey]

With the Garmin maps it is possible (with some maps anyway) to request a second code through the "myGarmin" site.

I looked into this last week, and you're correct that under some circumstances you can get a second licence for free (yippee, thanks a bunch for letting me use the map I bought!). Unfortunately, the circumstances are very limited and didn't apply in my case.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Happy Humphrey

[+ayepee]

 

Today's annoyance is with Anquet Maps (a competitor with MM, with similar products). They are advertising new Isle of Man 1:25000 maps for £15. Interesting, and I have a registered version of Anquet, bought about four years ago but uninstalled when I decided to buy full MM coverage instead.

 

Unfortunately, this "old" version (1) is not compatible with the new maps (which require version 6). So I'm meant to buy a new v6 licence for Anquet, which as a registered user I get for half price (it's not quite clear, but I think that this would cost about £15: not a huge price but it doubles the cost and gives me nothing extra that I actually need). So I'm not going ahead with it. I would've spent the £15 had I been allowed to use it with version 1 (which works perfectly well). How is losing a £15 sale good business?

 

This might be common practice these days, but IMO it's not a good way to sell luxury items during a recession.

 

I don't expect any "answers"; I'm just having a good grumble!

 

As far as I know, with Anquet, if you purchase the map, you will get the latest version of the software free. In fact you can download the program from their website ( From Here ).

 

Tony

 

I run Anquet mapping on desktop, laptop and two ppcs without any problems.

[+Happy Humphrey]

As far as I know, with Anquet, if you purchase the map, you will get the latest version of the software free.

Thanks, you could be right; I took it that the free download was only a trial version.

 

I'll try tonight and confirm. If so, I'll restrict my comments to Garmin...

Edited May 22, 2009 by Happy Humphrey

[team tisri]

I don't get why they have to be so expensive the maps

 

My understanding is that in the US the mapping data is considered to be owned by the public, and is therefore available at minimal cost, whereas here the data is owned by the Ordnance Survey which licenses it.

 

Of course if you want data in a specific format there are costs associated with converting public data into a specific format, so maps in any format other than paper or basic raster graphics is going to have that cost associated with it.

 

The US topo maps don't seem to have any restrictions on them - where the maps that support navigation are tied to specific hardware I didn't have any licensing issues at all loading them into my 60CSx, nor did I need to unlock anything. Don't know if that means it's a true free-for-all but it doesn't seem to be tied in any way at all.

[+keehotee]

Anyone else getting fed up with this? Mapping software seems to be the worst.

 

I have 3 Garmin "mapping" GPSr devices, all registered with Garmin, and some Garmin maps, also registered.

 

Silly question I know - but why do you need three mapping GPS's?

If it's a case of having three because you've upgraded - why do you still need registered maps on the old two?

[+sTeamTraen]

The issue for Garmin is that this is high-value content which would otherwise be extensively pirated. You only have to look at how many cracked versions of mapping software and data are in circulation to understand why they are so protective. (This is not intended to start a debate about the merits or evils of intellectual property rights.)

 

If you have three GPS devices and you only ever use one at a time, then it's frustrating to not be able to choose which one you use. On the other hand if you, your spouse, and your daughter all use Garmin GPS devices to drive around town simultaneously, maybe you should be paying three times for the maps.

 

Ideally I would like to see some way to be able to transfer licences between units more readily than you can at present, possibly with a nominal fee. Version 1 of the GPSTopo maps for France sort of let you do this: you got a single-GPS licence with the CD, then for 15 Euros or something you could add one more GPS device each year. (Then they got bought by Garmin and now V2 is out, so I don't know if this is still in place.)

[+Happy Humphrey]

The issue for Garmin is that this is high-value content which would otherwise be extensively pirated. You only have to look at how many cracked versions of mapping software and data are in circulation to understand why they are so protective. (This is not intended to start a debate about the merits or evils of intellectual property rights.)

Indeed, but Garmin have a database which allows them to check my registered products, and which helps them reduce pirating. All it would take is for them to allow any software that I've registered in my account to be loaded onto any hardware that I've registered under the same account. There may a a couple of small problems from Garmin's POV, but they've had the benefit of me buying all that stuff so why not give a bit of loyalty back?

Silly question I know - but why do you need three mapping GPS's?

If it's a case of having three because you've upgraded - why do you still need registered maps on the old two?

One for walking/caching (so should be as up to date as possible), one older Sat Nav and one new Sat Nav. Both the latter two work, but I want to keep them both (the cheaper one isn't really worth selling as they don't cost much new, and can be useful if Mrs. H wants to use it when I'm using the new one).

 

Whatever the technical problems, I still think that we should be allowed, in principle, to use a copy of software or data that we've purchased on any hardware we've purchased. The test should be; do I own this hardware and the software I want to install on it? If yes, then I should be able to go ahead. Even if it's my spare Sat Nav and it gets used at the same time as the main one (so two copies of the software are in use for a short period - so what!).

On the other hand if you, your spouse, and your daughter all use Garmin GPS devices to drive around town simultaneously, maybe you should be paying three times for the maps.

That's what we've been led to believe. But if I own all those devices, and the map, Garmin have done rather well out of me. It appears a bit greedy to then insist that I can only use the map upgrade on one of them!

[+keehotee]

But it's not a map, is it.

It's a piece of software that simulates a map on your GPS.

They didn't sell you the software - that would have given you carte blanche to make as many copies as you wanted to sell on fleabay.

They sold you a license to use their software.

 

You might just as well go to the DVLA and say "I've paid my road tax - but I own two cars. I'll obviously only be driving one at a time, so how about I just put the tax disc in the one I'm driving?" and see how far you get.....

 

Interestingly, if you buy a paper map from the OS, you can make as many copies as you want - for your own personal use.

The same applies to hard copy print outs from Memory Map - but not to copies of the Memory Map software.

[Neath Worthies]

But it's not a map, is it.

It's a piece of software that simulates a map on your GPS.

They didn't sell you the software - that would have given you carte blanche to make as many copies as you wanted to sell on fleabay.

They sold you a license to use their software.

But if I BUY a book I own the book even though I'm not allowed to make copies to sell on.

 

Similarly when I buy a CD or DVD it is not resticted to being used on one device, I can use it (the CD) on my HiFi, Portable player, in the Car etc. Why shouldn't you be able to do the same with software or data, which after all is all a CD contains.

[+keehotee]

But if I BUY a book I own the book even though I'm not allowed to make copies to sell on.

 

Similarly when I buy a CD or DVD it is not resticted to being used on one device, I can use it (the CD) on my HiFi, Portable player, in the Car etc. Why shouldn't you be able to do the same with software or data, which after all is all a CD contains.

 

Because the people who developed and sold you the license to use the software decided you can't.

It's their software - they set the conditions. They're not stopping you from running it on more than one device, any more than the music industry is stopping you from playing a CD on more than one device. They're stopping you from making and running additional copies. If you install the software onto one device, you're making one copy, for which you have a license. If you choose to delete that copy, you can usually create another copy on another device.

If the music and movie people had their way you'd probably be held to the same conditions as the software (and every few years they'll try it on again - (iTunes, Sony DRM, Microsfot DRM.......))

 

Not all software is so rigidly tied to one device. Memory Map, for example, can be run on more than one machine. Just not legitimately

Edited May 22, 2009 by keehotee

[+Happy Humphrey]

I suppose that there's one good reason why we tend to have to install software rather than just run it from a CD/DVD/memory card.

 

It suits the manufacturers, as they can regard installation on more than one device as "more than one copy" that requires more than one licence. In fact, we only actually want one copy, it's just that we want to "play" it (or run it) on more than one device and the only way is to go through the installation process; which is a bit laborious so we won't want to do it very often (therefore, we don't uninstall it and then re-install the old version when we're finished). And each time we do this installation it creates a new copy, for which we are asked to pay (as if we want to keep on buying the same thing over and over again).

 

The cynic would say that this is all by design. There seems to be a team somewhere working on creative ways of making us pay more through software licensing. ButMicrosoft kindly avoided taking advantage of a recent opportunity...

[+Renegade Knight]

...I don't expect any "answers"; I'm just having a good grumble!

It's a good grumble. I have OLD mapping software with one extra unlock code that I've saved for when I update my GPS. I'm sure as heck not to going to buy a new GPS and waste my maps just becuase I can.

 

At best Garmin has slowed down sales. At worst, well there are now other mapping solutions. I've been wondering if the Garmin Map on Cards are at least transferable between GPSs. The lock also makes it a lot easier to try another system since you are going to buy all new maps anyway. Lowrance has good GPSs these days.

[markandlynn]

DRM is slowly dying. The fact that it is easier to install and run a pirate copy of software than the original indicates the original is flawed and eventually consumer pressure comes to bear.

The software company is basically accusing you of stealing before you steal the program by adding DRM style features.

 

I run programs on my pc when at home, on holiday i use my laptop, but to use some software on both machines i have to use hax's.

 

GSAK's clyde has it right as do many others. EA has recenlty abandoned DRM im sure the trend will continue.

 

Steam allows me to buy a game and run it on as many pc's as i want but two can not be online at the same time.

 

Anyway i feel your pain HH

[+Renegade Knight]

But it's not a map, is it.

It's a piece of software that simulates a map on your GPS.

They didn't sell you the software - that would have given you carte blanche to make as many copies as you wanted to sell on fleabay.

They sold you a license to use their software.

But if I BUY a book I own the book even though I'm not allowed to make copies to sell on.

 

Similarly when I buy a CD or DVD it is not resticted to being used on one device, I can use it (the CD) on my HiFi, Portable player, in the Car etc. Why shouldn't you be able to do the same with software or data, which after all is all a CD contains.

 

You should be able to. Thats fair use. The software maker though has imposed restrictions above and beyond reasonable fair use limitations (one device at a time, fair enough. One device ever? Not so fair) through the EULA and through DRM limitations.

 

Their limitations make the software less useful. In time more useful software will come out and we will migrate. For now perhaps that's why Lowrance is enjoying some popularity. Same model better price for the restriction.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Steam allows me to buy a game and run it on as many pc's as i want but two can not be online at the same time....

 

Does Steam let you sell your game when you are done? Disposable media is quickly becoming the new norm. There is an effort to get rid of the used software market.

[+Guanajuato]

As far as I know, with Anquet, if you purchase the map, you will get the latest version of the software free.

Thanks, you could be right; I took it that the free download was only a trial version.

 

I'll try tonight and confirm. If so, I'll restrict my comments to Garmin...

Bear in mind though that your old Anquet V1 map files won't work with anquet V06.

 

You pay for the map data, the license cost & terms pretty much set by OS (anquest or MM obviously have a mark-up), hence the price being quite high whichever of Anquet or MM you go for.

 

If you've got an old V1 map selection that isn't covered by one of their packs, give them a call. I had a lake district 1:50000. When new mapping data became available a couple of years back, I was offered the option to upgrade for half price - but they didn't do the lakes at 1:50000 any more, so let me have the whole of northern england for half price. Unfortunately, that was a couple of months before V06 came out. From the little playing I did with V06 & the trial maps, it does look a much better product than V1, especially in terms of the PocketPc features. I've just not bothered as I prefer paper maps and now have geoscout for my PDA mapping.

[+JeremyR]

Prohibitive licensing restrictions are one of my biggest bug bears as well. One of the changes that the computing and internet age has brought about is that in days gone by, you bought a product. It was yours to do with what you wished. Today and particularly with regards to computer software and services you don't tend to buy the product, you buy a license to use the product in the manner specified by the publisher. It's a subtle sounding but actually very substantial difference.

 

At this point, I could just mention that I have mapping on my Garmin GPS that's free of annoying locks and prohibitions (i.e. I can literally do whatever the heck I like with it) and which cost me precisely £0.00. What's more, it's fresher and more reliable (anecdotally at least) than comparable paid-for products that Garmin would like me to use.

 

OSM has it's flaws, for sure but the more people put into it, the more reliable and complete it becomes and when it reaches that point for a large proportion of the population, the companies that impose these locked down and restrictive licenses will have to shift their stance or they just won't be able to compete.

[+MBFace]

 

Today's annoyance is with Anquet Maps (a competitor with MM, with similar products). They are advertising new Isle of Man 1:25000 maps for £15. Interesting, and I have a registered version of Anquet, bought about four years ago but uninstalled when I decided to buy full MM coverage instead.

 

 

It's alright for you - OS 1:25000 maps for a similar area it would probably be about £100 .

 

MBF

[+Happy Humphrey]

It's alright for you - OS 1:25000 maps for a similar area it would probably be about £100 .

To be fair to Anquet, and after the tips in this thread, I paid the £15 (£14.95 actually) and successfully downloaded the V6 software and the IOM 1:25000 map. I agree that the price is good, and it does download to a PPC easily.

 

Verdict is that it's really good, although not as good as Memory Map for geocaching due to a couple of annoying weaknesses. But then MM doesn't have this particular map, so Anquet wins on that front! The map is not quite as good as an OS 1:25000 but not bad at all.

 

Here's a screenshot of an example (the little green squares are geocache waypoints);

 

Edited May 24, 2009 by Happy Humphrey

[+Sue and Bernie]

We too have 3 Garmin units - a Vista Cx (Topo GB2 and CN Europe Nav V9 and two StreetPilot C510 each with CN Europe 2008).

 

This all came about because until recently, Garmin provided 2 unlocks with CN software, I was using CN software with the Vista and the one Streetpilot. When Topo came out with autorouting, I decided to get a second Streetpilot and use the two unlocks with the next upgrade to CN Europe 2007 to keep both the two SP current. A good plan it seemed.

 

...and then CN Europe 2008 hit the streets, quietly Garmin dropped the second unlock facility.

 

I have held long discussions with Garmin since I naturally felt this was a backhanded move by them. Got nowhere so when the software becomes seriously outdated, the StreetPilots (now discontinued) will be flogged off. Garmin do not seem to realise that their software upgrades are almost as expensive as new hardware with up-to-date mapping!... and not to mention the added functionality.

 

I have been a long-time fan of Garmin and have owned umpteen units and maps from them but will be shedding the car units. Like kitchen white goods, they've become disposable, uneconomic to keep upgraded. Can't beat the handhelds though.

 

Garmin's customer service concering hardware has always been absolutely exemplary, they've swopped kit and GPS units without a murmour, even when out of warranty. Garmin have sent power units, lids and stuff without blinking - all free of charge. A Top-Rate Service!

 

.... but with the software, they've gone completely and utterly the wrong way, charging more for the software upgrades than the hardware!

 

Go figure....

[+sTeamTraen]

.... but with the software, they've gone completely and utterly the wrong way, charging more for the software upgrades than the hardware!

My bet is that they got a new, but old-school, marketing manager.

[markandlynn]

...Steam allows me to buy a game and run it on as many pc's as i want but two can not be online at the same time....

 

Does Steam let you sell your game when you are done? Disposable media is quickly becoming the new norm. There is an effort to get rid of the used software market.

 

Yes i can sell you my key number if i want to .