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snowfreak37

Did I find PID PG2138?

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I went for a real nice hike here in upstate NY and wanted to find a few benchmarks along the way. I found PG2140 and was pretty excited and I think I found PG2138 but I am not sure. The geocaching web site does not recognize this PID number and the NGS site only gives me the Lat Lon information. When I converted there figures to usefull Lat Lon for my GPS'r this is what I found at those posted coordinates. The picture is a bit blurry but the coordinates are 44 42.276N 073 51.782W The designation name I guess is MOUNT LYON 2 NYAS 1880 does that mean it was placed there in 1880? Any light you can shed on the subject would be appreciated.

 

1hqm8l.jpg

Edited by snowfreak37

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"Snowfreak," I notice that the site on which you're storing the image does not allow anonymous FTP logins. Does it also not allow remote HTTP calls? Perhaps you need to put the image on a different server that will allow it to be displayed by another (in this case, Groundspeak's) site.

 

Patty

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"Snowfreak," I notice that the site on which you're storing the image does not allow anonymous FTP logins. Does it also not allow remote HTTP calls? Perhaps you need to put the image on a different server that will allow it to be displayed by another (in this case, Groundspeak's) site.

 

Patty

 

Thanks for the advice, worked like a charm.

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This looks like a job for...

PAPA BEAR!

 

For an 1880 mark, I would suspect a leaded-in copper plug...or similar.

 

What sayeth the guru of east coast antiquities?

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This looks like a job for...

PAPA BEAR!

 

For an 1880 mark, I would suspect a leaded-in copper plug...or similar.

 

What sayeth the guru of east coast antiquities?

Not much to say here. With no description it could be anything from a wooden stake, a hole in the rock a copper plug, a cross within a triangle - you name it.

 

You could try searching through the old CGS yearly reports from that era and see if there are any triangulations for that part of New York. here

 

Interestingly, there is also a "MOUNT LYON" without the "2". Usually a "2" station is a replacement of a station without the "2" but sometimes they both survive. There is no description for either one and they are off by over a minute of lat and lng (about a mile - I'll check the exact distance), quite a distance. If you search for "MOUNT LYON" in New York, you get the following table which has full accuracy, unlike the .1 seconds the other output displays. If you had a surveyor grade GPS you could confirm it. Both are second order stations so that's not too bad.

 

|Dist|PID...|H V|Vert_Source|Latitude.....|Longitude.....|Stab|Designation
|----|------|- -|-----------|-------------|--------------|----|-----------
|....|PG2138|2 .|29/SCALED..|N444216.55559|W0735147.01563|....|MOUNT LYON 2 NYAS 1880
|....|PG2144|2 .|29/SCALED..|N444134.29441|W0735250.93150|....|MOUNT LYON NYAS 1880

 

Based on you GPS and your photo, I would say it's an NFI.

 

Edit: I did the math and "MOUNT LYON 2 NYAS 1880" is 1918.854 meters (= 6295.44 ft = 1.19 miles) distant from "MOUNT LYON NYAS 1880" at an azimuth of 47 deg 9 min 42.8741 sec.

 

In other words it's about a mile northeast. Or from where you were at the "2" station, the other one is about a mile southwest.

If you check the map, is there another peak there? If so, go there and look for another somethingorother.

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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From USGS (not NGS) Bulletin No. 122, 1894, p 41.

 

Note that the initials V.C. are for Verplanck Colvin. Bullionhunter wrote an article about him and the Adirondack Survey on the benchmark wiki.

 

LYON_2.png

 

The coordinates would have been in the New England datum.

Edited by holograph

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From USGS (not NGS) Bulletin No. 122, 1894, p 41.

 

Note that the initials V.C. are for Verplanck Colvin. Bullionhunter wrote an article about him and the Adirondack Survey on the benchmark wiki.

 

LYON_2.png

 

The coordinates would have been in the New England datum.

Good find Jim and the link on datums is a great help.

 

Incidentally, the name "Principio", used as a fixed point in the New England datum, was not chosen because it was the "first" or "primary" point, but because it was on the grounds of a local business. Here's an excerpt from the description:

 

"DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1878

ON THE HIGHEST PART OF A DENSELY WOODED RIDGE, ABOUT 2-1/2 MILES

N 24 DEG W FROM CHARLESTOWN AND 200 YARDS N (MAGNETIC) FROM

CROSSROADS, KNOWN LOCALLY AS FOYS PATCH, ON LAND OWNED (IN 1834)

BY THE PRINCIPIO FURNACE CO., AND ABOUT 1/2 MILE NORTHWESTERLY

FROM THE FURNACE."

 

But back on topic - to snowfreak37: although the positions in the 1894 USGS report used the old New England datum, the NGS has readjusted the station's coordinates through the years so that the location found in the excerpt of the table quoted above is in the modern datum, and should be more accurate than your GPS can measure.

 

To be precise, the location of PG2138 is

latitude: 44 deg 42 min 16.55559 sec.

longitude: 073 deg 51 min 47.01563 sec.

 

And you now know the station is a copper bolt embedded in the rock with the initials VC (and other stuff) presumably carved in the rock.

 

I would say it's worth another visit to find this. My reading of your photo (although a bit blurry) is it's not a copper bolt. but some kind of bent pin or eye bolt, probably iron. It may well be you found a tie point for the tripod over the station, so you may be very close.

 

If you do unequivocally find it - a copper bolt complete with initials "VC", you could submit it to the NGS as a FOUND, together with a complete quote of the 1894 USGS report (and give a complete attribution), and if accepted, the NGS will use this as a description and the data sheet will get published.

 

Go for it!

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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From USGS (not NGS) Bulletin No. 122, 1894, p 41.

 

Note that the initials V.C. are for Verplanck Colvin. Bullionhunter wrote an article about him and the Adirondack Survey on the benchmark wiki.

 

LYON_2.png

 

The coordinates would have been in the New England datum.

Good find Jim and the link on datums is a great help.

 

Incidentally, the name "Principio", used as a fixed point in the New England datum, was not chosen because it was the "first" or "primary" point, but because it was on the grounds of a local business. Here's an excerpt from the description:

 

"DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1878

ON THE HIGHEST PART OF A DENSELY WOODED RIDGE, ABOUT 2-1/2 MILES

N 24 DEG W FROM CHARLESTOWN AND 200 YARDS N (MAGNETIC) FROM

CROSSROADS, KNOWN LOCALLY AS FOYS PATCH, ON LAND OWNED (IN 1834)

BY THE PRINCIPIO FURNACE CO., AND ABOUT 1/2 MILE NORTHWESTERLY

FROM THE FURNACE."

 

But back on topic - to snowfreak37: although the positions in the 1894 USGS report used the old New England datum, the NGS has readjusted the station's coordinates through the years so that the location found in the excerpt of the table quoted above is in the modern datum, and should be more accurate than your GPS can measure.

 

To be precise, the location of PG2138 is

latitude: 44 deg 42 min 16.55559 sec.

longitude: 073 deg 51 min 47.01563 sec.

 

And you now know the station is a copper bolt embedded in the rock with the initials VC (and other stuff) presumably carved in the rock.

 

I would say it's worth another visit to find this. My reading of your photo (although a bit blurry) is it's not a copper bolt. but some kind of bent pin or eye bolt, probably iron. It may well be you found a tie point for the tripod over the station, so you may be very close.

 

If you do unequivocally find it - a copper bolt complete with initials "VC", you could submit it to the NGS as a FOUND, together with a complete quote of the 1894 USGS report (and give a complete attribution), and if accepted, the NGS will use this as a description and the data sheet will get published.

 

Go for it!

 

Man you guys have been tons of help. Not only do I get to go back and see if I can find this benchmark but I am getting quite a history lesson as well. Good call on the fact that this may have been an anchor for a tripod becaue there were some others in the vicinity but the coordinates were further off on my GPS'r had I looked at the area closer I may have indeed seen the inscription. No obvious bolts were in the area except for these eye bolts but if I can find the inscription in the stone maybe I can find the remants of the copper bolt. Now I wish I had all this information to begin with, this benchmark is in an open clearing on the summit of Lyon Mountain. The other benchmark was a bear to get to (PG2140) It appears this summit may have more benchmarks than I bargained for.

PG2139 Lookout Tower

PG2140 Lyon with two RM's (that are probably there buried under the trees)

PG2138 ? Hopefully its there.

 

Next time I hike this mountain top I will take the new coordinates and take carefull notice of the entire area and look for the benchmark. It will also give me a good excuse to go back with a tape measure and try and find the RM's for PG2140. The RM's were last found in 1961. According to the datasheet RM 1 is @62 feet north of the station (which puts it well into the forest) and RM 2 is @34 feet sw of the station which also puts it slightly into the woods. I find it hard to believe that in 48 years the forest has taken over that much of the rock outcropping on the summit of a mountain. I am thinking about bringing a friends metal detector to try and find the RM's but what a pita hauling that thing up to the summit. If any of you pro's are out in this neck of the woods and would like to give these BM's a try let me know I'd love to tag along.

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1hqm8l.jpg

 

This looks like the “stan-helio” anchor points shown in a photo on the last page of this recovery report that this forum post by bullionhunter led me to - how cool is that.

 

I don't mean to say that this is the same as the one you found but it might explain what it is.

 

It sure looks like the same type of eyebolt. I could kick myself right in the pants for not looking closer at the area. It's right out in the open and very easy to walk to, unlike the other station mark that is on the summit. It will give me a good excuse to climb another day. Thanks for posting this information.

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I wanted to use this prior post to gain some more information. I was hiking a mountain here in Northern NY (Hurricane Mountain) and found this (pin) while searching for another benchmark. It most certainly had some lettering on the outside edges which I cannot read. There was 4 drill holes in a square pattern surrounding this (pin). The drill holes were spaced evenly apart. Further out from these drill holes were some eye bolts identical to the one that I took a picture of on top of Lyon Mountain. What I am curious about is this a Verplank Colvin copper bolt on top of Hurricane Mountain? If so I know what to look for when I hike back up Lyon Mountain. I have a much more detailed picture of the (pin) that I can email.

 

The Pin

14dfuix.jpg

 

Pin with GPS'r coordinates on top of Hurricane Mountain

w22dl1.jpg

 

Two of the four drill holes visible in the picture with pin in the middle

30n7na1.jpg

 

Closeup of pin

k33m9v.jpg

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I wanted to use this prior post to gain some more information. I was hiking a mountain here in Northern NY (Hurricane Mountain) and found this (pin) while searching for another benchmark. It most certainly had some lettering on the outside edges which I cannot read. There was 4 drill holes in a square pattern surrounding this (pin). The drill holes were spaced evenly apart. Further out from these drill holes were some eye bolts identical to the one that I took a picture of on top of Lyon Mountain. What I am curious about is this a Verplank Colvin copper bolt on top of Hurricane Mountain? If so I know what to look for when I hike back up Lyon Mountain. I have a much more detailed picture of the (pin) that I can email.

 

...

 

Closeup of pin

k33m9v.jpg

It looks a bit like the center of a triangulation station disk that has been mangled/removed. Could there have been a reset done there?

 

Here's one (MY6361) that I know is a mangled tri-station disk (a bit more obvious):

 

47debeb6-3bdf-4828-ba96-af3978382e99.jpg

 

OTOH, if you know a disk was never put there and the other references match - maybe it's your bolt.

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It looks a bit like the center of a triangulation station disk that has been mangled/removed. Could there have been a reset done there?

 

I couldn't find any info on a reset on the NGS website. The two benchmarks listed on the NGS website are PG2081 which I was able to find the station mark and the two RM's. The other PG 2082 was not there unless like you say this is whats left of it. If you look closely at my closeup picture of the pin you can see some letters at the top outside of the pin where the cement? is. I suppose this could be a reset for PG2082 the coordinates are very close. I was hoping someone here has seen one of Verplank Colvins copper bolts and confirm that this is or isn't what it looks like.

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The letters on your "remainder" certainly look like a stamping (an "A" followed by a ? "L" "P"?), and the center could be he remainder of a CGS disk that had been slammed repeatedly on three sides by hammer blows, driving the center part "up" into a rough triangular nub. It's amazing the lengths people will go to in attempting to rip these from the rock...

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